my new hinge frame

[strongboy2005]

God my Cocker is soooo SWEET! I just got a brand new hinge frame for $40 at ebay and I adjusted it down to 2 mm! God I don't know how I played all those years with my mag. Even with my mag totally decked out it wasn't ever half as fast or shot as far as my gun. How many other of you have had this same experience?

[petefol]

same here, i have a minimag and my friend recently bought a system x cocker. when he called me up to tell me he got it i told him to come over and we would play a game. i went outside to wait for him and when i stepped out the door i got shot! turns out he shot me all the way from his house which is like 1/4 mile away!

[Ryknow]

cockers dont shoot further or more accurately than a mag... its proven :) all guns shoot the same accuracy/distance UNLESS a flatline barrel or z-body comes into play... and the rate of fire thing, ever seen the 21 bps semi auto mag? www.butters.org if u havent :-P and mags are A LOT faster than cockers... just a note

[petefol]

word. i stepped outside and it was like splat splat splat, i got hit 50 billion times (literaly) all in the same spot. then the next time we played i was hiding behind a bunker, but he shot and it was like those old mcdonalds commercials, the paintballs all skillfully flew around the bunker and hit me "nothing but net".

[Python14]

I think a little bit of pbnation leaked into AO:)

[Dayspring]

Here we go again... :rolleyes:

[strongboy2005]

check out http://www.geocities.com/cockermongol and check the cocker functions sections and there is proof that an autococker shoots farther than an automag.

[FooTemps]

now does the ball keep accelerating once it leaves the barrel? That's just like saying a car keeps accellerating once you kill the engine.

Ok, here's some more logical explaination on why that doesn't work. The barrel is the vessel for the accelleration of a paintball. Once the barrel ends, the air escapes around the paintball into the open atmosphere. The air doesn't travel as if it is still in a barrel. Therefore, the ball would stop accellerating once it leaves the barrel. Theory disproved.

[Python14]

First, Strongboy, your link doesn't work.
Second, neither would whatever proof was contained within so no children will cry over this dead dog.
Third, What the hell is that picture in your sig Foo?

[Ryknow]

lets see the ball flew around the bunker, meaning u had a break, the only way a ball will curce unless u have ****y paint... yer cocker breaks ball... my mag doesnt... and they dont shoot farther, something moving at 300 feet per second is going to go the same distance as something else going 300 feet per second...and the elves dont exist by the way

EDIT: and I shot a Sandrisge F5 cocker for quite some time, it was nice, but big, bulky, and a pain in the buttm switched over to a mag, only problems I have had... having to switch LX stuff around...

[petefol]

i hope you realized that i was joking, thats why i threw in that 1/4 mile part? and strongboy the ball cannot accelerate once it leaves the barrel, it actually stops accelerating once it goes past the porting in the barrel, and there have been tests to prove that. but then again, if its on GEOCITIES it must be true!!!!! i suggest everyone just lets this thread die, who cares if some kid thinks cockers shoot farther.

[booyah]

I love this, the first part of te cockermongols theroy of paintball acceleration...



Note: The following is an untested theory thought up by me, it contains no factual evidence of any source of data with true factual measurments confirming the theory.

in other words, I just pulled all of this outta me bum, and now i wonder what else i can find in there :-)

[FutureMagOwner]

http://www.pbstar.com/misc-tech/range-debate/

:rolleyes:

[strongboy2005]

The ball DOES accelertate out of the barrel if it accelerates more slowly down the barrel. In the example of the automag, the ball accelerates incredibly fast, making it's top speed, at the end of the barrel, 300 fps. Autocockers, at the point of chrono, have only accelerated to 3/4 of its potental. This means that the autococker will continue to accelerate up to 25% faster, resulting in a greater distance.

[Python14]

Even though futuremagowner shut you down like a hotdog stand, I want to hear you squirm a little long.

What aspect of an Autocockers operation makes it perform like you say it does? More over, What law of physics proves your point? and finally, Does your bum still hurt from pulling all of this out?

You lost the arguement, face it.

I'm done:)

[spantol]

We've been over this before, strongboy. Newton's second law, force equals mass times acceleration. Restated, acceleration equals force divided by mass. There is no force behind the ball once it has left the barrel. Solving for acceleration is left as an exercise for the reader.

[spantol]

Geez, strongboy, you don't remember this (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61490) thread? You started it, for crying out loud...

[Cha0tic]

well, your profile says your 16, so you probably haven't taken physics class yet. why don't you go to the bookstore and buy a few physics books and read up on some laws.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by strongboy2005
The ball DOES accelertate out of the barrel if it accelerates more slowly down the barrel. In the example of the automag, the ball accelerates incredibly fast, making it's top speed, at the end of the barrel, 300 fps. Autocockers, at the point of chrono, have only accelerated to 3/4 of its potental. This means that the autococker will continue to accelerate up to 25% faster, resulting in a greater distance.

And like I said... That guy is spouting off bs. You see, the air propells the ball because the only way to escape is to push the ball out the barrel. Once the air reaches the tip, the air dispurses in any/every direction. That means there's no more air behind the ball pushing it. That means that you can't propell the ball any more (aka, NO MORE ACCELLERATION!). Once the ball leaves the barrel, it begins to decellerate.

[RAM3139]

Wow, i just finished reading cockermongols revolutionary new theory of physics. Everyone else already explained why its bad physics, but heres another point i saw:
"In an autococker the design is open bolt blowback. This design has an advantage of a slower rate of accleration..."
I think that pretty much ruins any credibility of that "info" page.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by FooTemps


And like I said... That guy is spouting off bs. You see, the air propells the ball because the only way to escape is to push the ball out the barrel. Once the air reaches the tip, the air dispurses in any/every direction. That means there's no more air behind the ball pushing it. That means that you can't propell the ball any more (aka, NO MORE ACCELLERATION!). Once the ball leaves the barrel, it begins to decellerate.
And, to quote you, you stated above that the air, after dispersment, will spout off in any/every direction. Does this not include behind the ball? The ball, after leaving the barrel, is aerodynamically designed to continue acceleration for as long as possible. Up to 25% increased rate. This is the advantage of slower acceleration. The ball in the cocker accelerates and when it reaches 300 fps, at the end of the barrel, it continues to accelerate beyond that point while the automag has reached its maximum velocity immediately at the exit of the barrel. As for pbstar's test, they did not test either of the guns in argument, so that is not relevant in this situation. None of the gun's mentioned in that test had the same firing action as the autococker or the automag. They were basically comparing pirahnas with spyers, obviously the distances will be very similar.

EDIT ** They also said that "excluding the Tippmann" so that totally discredits their theory. The theory stating that ANY ball exiting the barrel of the gun at 300 FPS, will travel the EXACT SAME DISTANCE in a frictionless environment. If the Tippmann has reached 300 fps, how could it go farther if it did not accelerate further? Tom Kaye already proved that backspin takes no effect on the aerodynamics of the ball's travel so how can we say it has greater distance? I believe the same rule applies in this situation, slower rate of acceleration resulting in after-barrel increased acceleration therby allowing a greater increase in the overall distance of the paintball. It makes sense.

[FreshmanBob]

Strongboy, you poor poor kid

First of all, every gun releases a certain amount of air to propell the ball. That air expands and puts force on the ball, as it expands there is less and less acceleration because the gas is expanding and has less psi. This is because you had a controlled amount of gas comming out, say a cubic inch of gas at 100 psi. The gas expands to say 2 cubic inches and goes down to 50 psi, 3 cubic inches and its 33 psi and so on. That means there is less and less force on the ball. Eventually after about 7 or 8 inches the ball is travelling faster than the expanding gas because the initial burst of gas got it going quickly. So when the gas displaces in 'each and every direction' its not moving fast enough to effect the ball.

Tom NEVER stated that backspin does not effect accurate. Don't you know what the flatline is? It uses a curved barrel to put backspin on the ball and make it go father, that is why people site the tippman as not counting because it uses backspin.

Also the ball is not aerodynamically designed to keep accelerating for as long as possible, its designed to be as cheap as possible to make. It's a circle and originally was made from the same machines that make medical pills for horses. If it was designed to fly further it'd be a bullet shape.

[spantol]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

And, to quote you, you stated above that the air, after dispersment, will spout off in any/every direction. Does this not include behind the ball? The ball, after leaving the barrel, is aerodynamically designed to continue acceleration for as long as possible. Up to 25% increased rate. This is the advantage of slower acceleration. The ball in the cocker accelerates and when it reaches 300 fps, at the end of the barrel, it continues to accelerate beyond that point while the automag has reached its maximum velocity immediately at the exit of the barrel. As for pbstar's test, they did not test either of the guns in argument, so that is not relevant in this situation. None of the gun's mentioned in that test had the same firing action as the autococker or the automag. They were basically comparing pirahnas with spyers, obviously the distances will be very similar.


Strongboy, strongboy, strongboy.... Why are you so determined to take the self-professed random speculation of a geocities webpage over rationality and simple physics? Please, that's what pbnation is for.



EDIT ** They also said that "excluding the Tippmann" so that totally discredits their theory. The theory stating that ANY ball exiting the barrel of the gun at 300 FPS, will travel the EXACT SAME DISTANCE in a frictionless environment. If the Tippmann has reached 300 fps, how could it go farther if it did not accelerate further? Tom Kaye already proved that backspin takes no effect on the aerodynamics of the ball's travel so how can we say it has greater distance? I believe the same rule applies in this situation, slower rate of acceleration resulting in after-barrel increased acceleration therby allowing a greater increase in the overall distance of the paintball. It makes sense.

Hardly. The Flatline is, as has been mentioned many, many times, a special case. Volumes have been written about the physics behind it, and at no point does a ball propelled out of a flatline accelerate after it has cleared the barrel. I suggest further acquainting yourself with the principles involved.

[la690]

did anyone read the caption belows the illustration of cocker mongols theory?

Note: The following is an untested theory thought up by me, it contains no factual evidence of any source of data with true factual measurments confirming the theory.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by FreshmanBob
Strongboy, you poor poor kid

First of all, every gun releases a certain amount of air to propell the ball. That air expands and puts force on the ball, as it expands there is less and less acceleration because the gas is expanding and has less psi. This is because you had a controlled amount of gas comming out, say a cubic inch of gas at 100 psi. The gas expands to say 2 cubic inches and goes down to 50 psi, 3 cubic inches and its 33 psi and so on. That means there is less and less force on the ball. Eventually after about 7 or 8 inches the ball is travelling faster than the expanding gas because the initial burst of gas got it going quickly. So when the gas displaces in 'each and every direction' its not moving fast enough to effect the ball.

Tom NEVER stated that backspin does not effect accurate. Don't you know what the flatline is? It uses a curved barrel to put backspin on the ball and make it go father, that is why people site the tippman as not counting because it uses backspin.

Also the ball is not aerodynamically designed to keep accelerating for as long as possible, its designed to be as cheap as possible to make. It's a circle and originally was made from the same machines that make medical pills for horses. If it was designed to fly further it'd be a bullet shape.
The gas does not disperse like that inside the gun. It is a blast of air, if the pressure ceased we could not reach any kind of velocity like our paintball guns can achieve. Even if the pressure does drop, in that space it would be so insignificant it would not slow the ball. Even 1 psi more than the air outside would still have enough force on the back of the ball to continue acceleration.

On the Tippmann thing... I remember reading that Tom said that the shell on the outside of the ball would spin, but take no effect on the ball because the fill would stay in perfect stillness.

[spantol]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

The gas does not disperse like that inside the gun. It is a blast of air, if the pressure ceased we could not reach any kind of velocity like our paintball guns can achieve. Even if the pressure does drop, in that space it would be so insignificant it would not slow the ball. Even 1 psi more than the air outside would still have enough force on the back of the ball to continue acceleration.


I think I see your problem--you don't seem to understand the difference between acceleration and velocity. The pressure does indeed disperse, at which point acceleration--the rate of change in velocity--becomes zero. The ball then continues to cruise along at the velocity it had accelerated to. Acceleration requires a force behind it, force that ceases to exist once the ball has cleared the barrel.

[RAM3139]

i have an idea to convince u strongboy. Take your autococker and chrono it to 300fps, with the barrel resting on the chrono. Take ten shots like this and find the average. Back up ten feet and fire ten more, again finding the average. Back up another ten and repeat. According to your theory, an autococker (or another "openbolt blowback" as the webpage states) will have a higher velocity 20 feet away from the chrono, while an automag (or other "fast accelerating" gun) will be slower. Try it out and let the results speak for themselves.

[booyah]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

As for pbstar's test, they did not test either of the guns in argument, so that is not relevant in this situation. None of the gun's mentioned in that test had the same firing action as the autococker or the automag. They were basically comparing pirahnas with spyers, obviously the distances will be very similar.

Actually they test a shocker. the two "theories" (and i use that word in the loosest definition) that the range morons use is that closed bolt and low pressure makes a differnce. a shocker is both closed bolt and very low pressure... but makes no noticible difference.

Also, if a cocker somehow magically makes the ball accelerate slower, wouldnt you need a longer barrel to get the same velocities out of it as you would a mag?? I do like the idea someone posted of shooting then backing up and shooting another group, that should be enough to prove that the theory you propose is wrong.

[spantol]

On a related note, there's a thread (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184299) over at PBNation discussing this very topic. In it, someone puts forth the first rational, physically-sound theory I've encountered for why autocockers may appear to shoot greater distances at normal velocities. RoddyMySpyder posits that the physical body design of the autococker lends itself to being held at a slight upward angle when one aims down the barrel. This may or not be the case for everyone, but at least it's an argument that follows--a refreshing alternative to the claims made in this thread.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

And, to quote you, you stated above that the air, after dispersment, will spout off in any/every direction. Does this not include behind the ball? The ball, after leaving the barrel, is aerodynamically designed to continue acceleration for as long as possible. Up to 25% increased rate. This is the advantage of slower acceleration. The ball in the cocker accelerates and when it reaches 300 fps, at the end of the barrel, it continues to accelerate beyond that point while the automag has reached its maximum velocity immediately at the exit of the barrel. As for pbstar's test, they did not test either of the guns in argument, so that is not relevant in this situation. None of the gun's mentioned in that test had the same firing action as the autococker or the automag. They were basically comparing pirahnas with spyers, obviously the distances will be very similar.

EDIT ** They also said that "excluding the Tippmann" so that totally discredits their theory. The theory stating that ANY ball exiting the barrel of the gun at 300 FPS, will travel the EXACT SAME DISTANCE in a frictionless environment. If the Tippmann has reached 300 fps, how could it go farther if it did not accelerate further? Tom Kaye already proved that backspin takes no effect on the aerodynamics of the ball's travel so how can we say it has greater distance? I believe the same rule applies in this situation, slower rate of acceleration resulting in after-barrel increased acceleration therby allowing a greater increase in the overall distance of the paintball. It makes sense.

OOPS! hahaha, I forgot to mention air always takes the path of least resistance. That's why the air would flow around and about the ball, not stay behind it.

[PolishSausage]

I love these threads!

[FalconGuy016]

strong, I am openmouthed at how wrong you are :(... and how you continue it

[FalconGuy016]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

The gas does not disperse like that inside the gun. It is a blast of air, if the pressure ceased we could not reach any kind of velocity like our paintball guns can achieve. Even if the pressure does drop, in that space it would be so insignificant it would not slow the ball. Even 1 psi more than the air outside would still have enough force on the back of the ball to continue acceleration.


Yes, that is how it disperses. As there is more VOLUME for the same amount of air to fill it, there is LESS psi. What is a "blast of air" as you say. Yes, it is a blast of air! The blast effect IS the air starting with high psi then as the paintball opens more volume behind it, there is less psi because the air spreads out! The pressure doesn't cease instantly, it ceases when it escapes into the outside world. What if the pressure didn't cease (like you imply??)? We would all die of high air pressure.

Someone get a cocker and a mag and show him with direct physical results... regular physics doesnt seem to get through

[Telefragged]

Once the ball leaves the barrel, the gas pressure dissapates, and there is nothing to continue propelling the ball forward, or anything to continue accelerating it.

Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla...

[JT2002]

some people are so ignorant. strongboy, i have some advice for you in my sig

[SqueegeeKid]

Well, i know this thread went way out to left field but i'm gonna keep with the original question concerning Hinges:

I just picked up a new 2K3 Cocker. I tried a few of my friends older Cockers with the slide trigger and enjoyed them very much. I always wanted one and i finally got the chance. The new 2K3's come stock with a hinge i'm sure you all know.

I love it! The trigger feels alot like my Mag's (duh, no slide) but it has maybe a quarter of the needed force to pull it. I can get that hinge singing! Going back to my Retro i really noticed the amount of force i need to pull it.

Is there anyway to make the Retro's trigger lighter?

[-=Squid=-]

Can somebody provide me as many links as possible proving that there is no difference in range? My whole field believe there is, and I want to prove them wrong with several different sources. The only one I have so far is the one posted in this thread. Thanks for the help.

[FreshmanBob]

Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying, so lemmie put this in the SIMPLEST possible terms

When a gun fires, it lets out a controlled volume of air at a controlled psi. After that it stops letting out air. That controlled volume initially has a great deal of force on the ball, giving it the most acceleration. Eventually the force of the air is not enough to effect the ball and can barely keep up with it. That point generally comes when porting starts, because there is a loss in pressure behind the ball, or when the barrel ends.

YOUR WRONG! FACE IT!

the guys site even says that his theory has NEVER been tested, so its not even a theory! It's a hypothosis that hasn't been tested, its not proven!

[JT2002]

a hypothesis is an educated guess. Are you sure u can even call it that?:D

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by JT2002
a hypothesis is an educated guess. Are you sure u can even call it that?:D

What that guy said sounded like something a paintball company would use for marketing.

[Brak]

Originally posted by strongboy2005
check out http://www.geocities.com/cockermongol and check the cocker functions sections and there is proof that an autococker shoots farther than an automag.

heres what i got from that website:
Note: The following is an untested theory thought up by me, it contains no factual evidence of any source of data with true factual measurments confirming the theory.


yup, this guy sure does have proof that an autococker shoots farther than an automag!!

[strongboy2005]

I have no more evidence, but I have both had a cocker and a mag. So this is what I'm gonna do: I will video tape a stock 2k3 cocker and a stock mag. They will be placed on an even plane and fired at a wall 75 feet away. Both of them should be able to hit the wall, so I HYPOTHESIZE that the cocker's paint marks will be higher up on the wall than the automag's thereby implying that the cocker achieved the greater distance? Would that be enough to satisfy you all?

[Python14]

no, if you must know, that is not good enough.

[hostage]

Well actually the balls do excelorate once living the barrels, in the right condition all falling object accelorate at a speed of 9.8m/s^2 (9.8meters per second per second). It will accelorate going down, however from the point of leaving the barrel the velocity will drop off. Also you would have to do a test using same paint, same velocity, use a freak kit etc. Then make sure you use multible markers and also you have many uncontrollable varibles.
-Doron

[Brak]

no, it isnt good enough. we dont know what air source your using or what velocty your using, or the barrel to paint match. so you could just turn up the velocity on your cocker and keep the automag the same and say your autococker shoots farther. get a chrono, use the same paint and barrels, use the same air source too, and THEN it will be good enough

[Python14]

Brak beat me to it

[*ArKfEaR*]

Originally posted by Python14
I think a little bit of pbnation leaked into AO:)

you mean a little bit of genius leaked into AO lalal MAGS DROOL AUTOCOCKERS RULE lalal LO LOO LOO LE LE LEE ;)

both great designs but cockers are the rocker :)

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*


you mean a little bit of genius leaked into AO lalal MAGS DROOL AUTOCOCKERS RULE lalal LO LOO LOO LE LE LEE ;)

both great designs but cockers are the rocker :)

hah, but you don't defy physics!

[Python14]

Wow, You are too cool for this thread. QUICKLY, Escape it's evil hands of lameness and save yourself. SAVE YOURSELF!:rolleyes:

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by Brak
no, it isnt good enough. we dont know what air source your using or what velocty your using, or the barrel to paint match. so you could just turn up the velocity on your cocker and keep the automag the same and say your autococker shoots farther. get a chrono, use the same paint and barrels, use the same air source too, and THEN it will be good enough
all right, you're on. Testing over a chrono. Both guns will be hooked into the same scuba tank. Both guns using marbs and boomsticks. 14" boomsticks. They will be placed barrel to barrel so you can see they are perfectly aligned. We will have 2 chrons that will take the velocity during the entire time, no cheats, no gimics.

There.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

all right, you're on. Testing over a chrono. Both guns will be hooked into the same scuba tank. Both guns using marbs and boomsticks. 14" boomsticks. They will be placed barrel to barrel so you can see they are perfectly aligned. We will have 2 chrons that will take the velocity during the entire time, no cheats, no gimics.

There.

well, you have to get the average of the area, since you can't land shots one on another all the time. How many shots will you be going through?

[FalconGuy016]

I cant believe you are doing this to yourself

[Sinnet]

you're a 16-year-old kid who just bought a hinge for his cocker dirt-cheap on ebay... and now you're coming up with matching boomsticks, two chronos, scuba tanks, and some vice grips (i'm assuming) to hold the guns level.

have fun

take lots of pics.

[FalconGuy016]

No, tape it :)

[Python14]

No, go on a College Campus tour.

[Dayspring]

Like clockwork. This kid comes on, mouths off and then disappears. Guys. I learned long ago to not suffer the idiots of the world.


I thought we changed the locks on this place...

[MarkM]

But think on this guys, cocker mongol got his jollies watching his site hit count go up...only thing that will rise with all this "special air" about ;)

[SqueegeeKid]

It wouldn't be that expensive to do it.

2 chronographs? From what i hear, that is a MUST to own. I know 3 guys with them.

Not only am i getting a Scuba tank next week, but i know 2 other guys with them as well.

A table and someway to hold the guns level isn't that hard or expensive to rig up.

The barrels might be expensive if you don't already own them. I'd also look to my friends to hook me up. I'm looking to pick up a Freak for both my markers (Cocker and a Mag) plus my buddy has a Freak for his Cocker.

Everyone on my team (cept me) uses identical HPA systems (PMI 68-3000) so won't have a hard time there.

Hell, i think i'll try this out myself. Not to diffuse my belief that Cockers are more accurate (which isn't the case), more like easing my mind. Plus Sinnet seems to think it would be fun. :D

[Peach]

Wow... I came into this one a little late... But I feel left out, and I'm thirsty for blood.

Strongboy: Before you make up stories, think them out first... Just think of how stupid you sound! Porting releases pressure around the ball...DUH! If the pressure is being released, how would it magicly speed up the ball? Well, I don't know, I sure bet you do, thow another BS theory out here so we can all shoot it down. The ONLY way the "mongol" theory would come remotely close to working would be with a completely closed system, w/o porting or anything. Yet... His theory would still not be correct because any other closed bolt gun would shoot exactly the same. Slower bolt acceleration, like in many guns, would have a 25% "bonus" speed. So in BS theory, any closed bolt, non ported barrel would have this magical 25% bonus speed.

What do YOU think about that?? I'm betting a mag with a non ported barrel would have that magical 25% bonus like the other guns. It IS a gas hog isn't it? Funny how from your theory this more air BS would make it shoot faster... Then the mag shoots more air then the lot of them, but you say it has the lowest range.

Look, the point is kid, cockers are nice, just like dye barrels, but they are overpriced and have NO magical qualities as you say.

Also strong, I think selling your mag lowered your IQ a good 80 points (if you had that many origionaly) down into the "cockers are magical" section in the BS hall of fame.

Cocker owners bought mags after they read this post, except for strongboy who lives in a dream world with his cocker loving friend.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Peach
[B Look, the point is kid, cockers are nice, just like dye barrels, but they are overpriced and have NO magical qualities as you say. [/B]

Overpriced? Now, I dont think they have more range, im not ingnorant like that, but they are NOT overpriced. 350 for a NICELY milled cocker, in colors, WITH a hinge frame is not over priced. Plus think of all the parts that have to on them. Also, I am NOT a mag basher, I own one, but I think THEY are overpriced. There is very little to a mag but they still cost over 350 for a black mini.

[davidb]

I'm going to do something taboo here, and use a gun analogy.

The M16 rifle fires from a closed bolt. The bullet is propelled by gases released in the combustion of the... well, propellant. Now, anyone who has ever seen a muzzle flash can tell you that those gases still have some force to them as they exit the barrel - FAR more than the gas propelling a paintball would have.
The muzzle velocity of the M16 is 1000 meters per second. The MAX velocity of the M16 is - that's right, you guessed it - 1000 meters per second!! As it leaves the barrel, it immediately begins to decelerate.

Now, if this was not the case, why would anyone give a damn what the muzzle velocity was? What you really want to know is what the max velocity is, right? Muzzle velocity is used because it IS the max velocity.

Now, you might point out, as many have, that closed bolt guns, as a general rule, have better range than open bolt ones. The sad part is, that you, like many, probably never stopped to think about WHY! It's actually very simple. They have a higher muzzle velocity! That's right - no theories, no "it's hard to explain", just plain old "the bullet's goin' faster!"

Think about this: If CockerMongol's neato little idea'r had any semblance of truth to it, Cockers would either be banned, or forced to chrony in some special manner to record their actual maximum velocity. You might respond that nobody ever realized it was happening before. You don't think that Cockers would also be known for hurting like crazy? Or being unsafe? I can promise you that CockerMongol is not the first to think of this, although he may well be the first (immediately succeeded by folk like you) to not discount the idea for the idiocy that it is.

Do yourself a favor, and just forget that you ever read it. Embrace reality while you still can.

[Jack & Coke]

OMG! I think Strongboy may be on to something here...

After searching the whole internet, I have found a chart which best summarizes the data that cockers shoot further than mags! It is great evidence to show off to those know-nothing automagers.

If you believe cockers have more distance than other guns, this chart is for you! Click here to see the data and chart (http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=483083).

I'm going to sell my mag and get a cocker now!

[Timmee]

Well, all this accuracy/acceleration nonsense is negated by my self propelled, laser guided paintballs with radar guided redundancy. The only downside is that it makes the paintballs weight 40 lbs, but to never miss is worth carrying only 4-5 paintballs onto the field. :rolleyes:

Now that the sarcasm is over with, ....

Paintballs WILL NOT positively accelerate once they pass the porting of a barrel, although they will negatively accelerate (or decelerate). In the absence of porting, a paintball will stop accelerating once it reaches the end of the barrel. Strongboy2005, here's a challenge. Tell this theory to the physics teacher at your school, and see what he/she says. The laws of physics don't lie, and aren't biased in any way towards 'Cockers or 'Mags (or any other marker for that matter).

[booyah]

great quote i heard once...

"once the ball leaves the barrel, it doesnt care what gun it was shot from... it will go on the course set from the instant it left the barrel."

and yes, this was from a cocker centric shop. just to prove that not all cocker shops are full of morons like strongboy....

[Dayspring]

I sense the flames rising up yet AGAIN.

Shouldn't you be well done by now Strongboy?

[JT2002]

nah i think hes going for X Mag ***Cough Cough*** i mean Xtra crispy:D

[nospmas311]

Ah yes... I can feel the radiance from here. I'll let the rest of my household freeze to death while I warm myself up to this flaming screen...

[JT2002]

lol. im just playing

[la690]

I think that Isaac Newton owned you, Strongboy.
(with some help from AO)

[strongboy2005]

EVERY POST between this and the last post I did is either flaming me, or the topic. What is the point of this? I already said I'd test it. My friend has a mag with a 14" boomstick, and I have a friend with a cocker 14" boomstick I can slap on my cocker. A table and two vices are easy. We (my team) have two chronos already. I will chrono them +- 3 bps within each other. I will make sure both are running consistantly +- 3bps of each other. There will be a wall 50 feet away from the tips of the barrels of the guns. Both will be shooting a hopper of marbs. I will use a long rod that will be equally pulled on both guns to ensure each gun is firing the same bps (we wouldn't want the cocker to smoke the mag, and look bad on tape). This is the best I can do to prove cockers shoot farther. And when the cocker out-distances the mag you will all say I cheated. But it won't matter, because then I will know the truth, and I can show that tape to any/everyone I know who is tied between the two markers. The cocker will out-distance the mag. You can jot that down as my official hypothesis.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by strongboy2005
EVERY POST between this and the last post I did is either flaming me, or the topic. What is the point of this? I already said I'd test it. My friend has a mag with a 14" boomstick, and I have a friend with a cocker 14" boomstick I can slap on my cocker. A table and two vices are easy. We (my team) have two chronos already. I will chrono them +- 3 bps within each other. I will make sure both are running consistantly +- 3bps of each other. There will be a wall 50 feet away from the tips of the barrels of the guns. Both will be shooting a hopper of marbs. I will use a long rod that will be equally pulled on both guns to ensure each gun is firing the same bps (we wouldn't want the cocker to smoke the mag, and look bad on tape). This is the best I can do to prove cockers shoot farther. And when the cocker out-distances the mag you will all say I cheated. But it won't matter, because then I will know the truth, and I can show that tape to any/everyone I know who is tied between the two markers. The cocker will out-distance the mag. You can jot that down as my official hypothesis.

Firing it slowly should get a better result since the gun gets a chance to fully recharge and settle. Also, make the distance from the wall a bit longer. Just a length far enough to get the balls to land noticably lower than their initial starting point yet still be able to break on the wall. Not to mention, the cocker really don't shoot faster than a mag. The mag's max rof is far beyond a cocker's maximum physical capability. BUT the problem with mags is that they are hard to shoot so you can't achieve high rof easily unless you have retro/x/rt/emag valves.

I'm sorry if I flamed you but I'm just trying to prove that it is impossible for a paintball to accellerate outside of the barrel. Physics can't really be fooled like that.

[spantol]

You know, you made the same claim in the last (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61490) thread you started about this topic, and then promptly disappeared. Not that I'm calling you a troll outright, mind you, it just strikes me as curious.


Originally posted by strongboy2005
EVERY POST between this and the last post I did is either flaming me, or the topic. What is the point of this? I already said I'd test it. My friend has a mag with a 14" boomstick, and I have a friend with a cocker 14" boomstick I can slap on my cocker. A table and two vices are easy. We (my team) have two chronos already. I will chrono them +- 3 bps within each other. I will make sure both are running consistantly +- 3bps of each other. There will be a wall 50 feet away from the tips of the barrels of the guns. Both will be shooting a hopper of marbs. I will use a long rod that will be equally pulled on both guns to ensure each gun is firing the same bps (we wouldn't want the cocker to smoke the mag, and look bad on tape). This is the best I can do to prove cockers shoot farther. And when the cocker out-distances the mag you will all say I cheated. But it won't matter, because then I will know the truth, and I can show that tape to any/everyone I know who is tied between the two markers. The cocker will out-distance the mag. You can jot that down as my official hypothesis.

[EsPo]

Just ignore this thread.. another one swallowed by the sea of propaganda...:( :rolleyes:

[temps]

strongboy2005, your basing your information from a website thats information, is posted as being THEORY. (dismissing the fact that the web site has many errors in it, and the theory is wrong/proven wrong else where... grade 11 physics for example)


, the guys theory like is wrong, a paintball once left the barrel cannot continue to exelerate. But instead of explaining again why your wrong like everyone else has. I'm going to through my.own theory out for discussion

We have all shot (well most people here anyway) mags, Some of us have shot cockers, to say there is a small bias on these forms is an understatment :D

My friends cocker, when fired looks like an elegant dance, its quite the ball has a perfect arc, and it hits the target with ease. Now my theory behind why cockers shoot better, is one, consistancy... Now comparing cockers to tippmanns and spyders, consistancy is a big difference and it is odviouse, ANYWAY I also beleive when comparing mags to cockers you can ignore consistancy as the difference can almost be dissmissed.

Well Here is my Theory of why guns shoot differenty (not just mags vs cockers, this theory effects all guns)

Theory: Air Turbulance behind the paintball.

(I am not sure, maby someone can pm the truth about this)

But, I think that the way to air is released to fire the paintball, depending on how the holes are set up may cause the air to act differently from gun to gun, therefore affecting the forces that are pushing on the ball.


But we all know mags kick ***, no mater what anybody says :p

[davidb]

No, actually, not EVERY POST was a flame. But since I've already been accused of it...
Your hypotheses (and I use the term very, very loosely) are WRONG, and labeling them as such is not flaming, but merely a statement of fact. The idea that you even want to test them is causing all sane people reading this thread to either laugh out loud or shake their heads in pity. You are right about one thing: if you say the cocker shot farther than the mag, you are either lying, you cheated, or you did something stupid that worked in your favor.

If you do, as you claim, have all the equipment to perform your ignoble experiment, then it stands to reason that you have at least one chronograph at your disposal. Why, then, do you not simply take your beloved Autococker (I own one as well in case you're wondering) and shoot it over the chrony a few times, back up, and repeat? It would save you a lot of trouble and a lot of embarassment.

On the other hand, the longer you carry on with this, the longer the rest of us get to be entertained by it. So, by all means, allow your illusion to endure to its final stupidity. And please, post pics. :D

[AGD]

Well, I for one am VERY impressed!! Want to buy a Crown Point Barrel??

AGD

[Dayspring]

I think that was an attempt at sarcasm. I think...:confused:

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by AGD
Well, I for one am VERY impressed!! Want to buy a Crown Point Barrel??

AGD

I DO! Remember! The triangular shape cut out thingys in the mussle break add more distance!

[davidb]

Originally posted by AGD
Well, I for one am VERY impressed!! Want to buy a Crown Point Barrel??

AGD

Tom... I cannot stress this enough -

LOL

I saw the "AGD has just replied to your..." email and my eyes went wide. I was sure there was no way you would do it. I LOVE YOU MAN!

[hardr0ck68]

i havent read all this thread, its to pointless after the first few posts to go on....but

i think strongboy is right ::wink wink:: and since a cocker makes paint accelerate 25% more once it leaves the barrel foe safty reasons all cockers should have to chrony in at like 200fps so as to make sure there later acceleration dose not make the paint travel at an unsafe velocity. i also think everyone in the world should buy a cocker, why? because theres nothing like hearing "CLUNCK, thhhhhubt, psssssst" and knowing the 5 man team you were about to play now has 4 working markers.

truth be told, i think the popularity of this forum is starting to hurt the content of it, Im now finding more and more posts by idiots who dont do a search, who wont listen to physics, and who dont understand that 90% of paintball marketing is hype, the other 10% is AGD.

[Dayspring]

The quote of the year!


Originally posted by hardr0ck68
90% of paintball marketing is hype, the other 10% is AGD.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by petefol
same here, i have a minimag and my friend recently bought a system x cocker. when he called me up to tell me he got it i told him to come over and we would play a game. i went outside to wait for him and when i stepped out the door i got shot! turns out he shot me all the way from his house which is like 1/4 mile away!

a 1/4 mile?!?!? give me a break! that is 1320 feet.(or about 4 1/2 football fields) I would REALLY like to see a paintball go 1/4 mile when fired from a gun at 300 FPS. I doubt a paintball could honestly be shot one footballfeild acuratly.

[devildog]

umm, for one, i dont really care about which marker shoots further or whatever, i have one of each, but think of this, if 2 cars, the same car, one with a nice hefty v8, like a 350 or something, and the other has a v6, 264 maybe, or something like that, but everything else is the same, and you shut the engine off and let the cars coast, they should coast the same distance on level ground, not taking into account brake friction, tire wear or whatever else.

also, if you really wanted to do this test or whatever, youd have to do it in a perfect enviroment, remember the theory about the feather and the bowling ball droped from a building? both will fall at the same speed at the same time and hit the bottom at the same time, IN A PERFECT WORLD.

lastly, when all of you guys talk, MY EARS WANT TO FALL OFF, SO SHUT UP ALREADY!!!

[Dayspring]

How do your ears want to fall off when you're reading this? :D


Originally posted by devildog
lastly, when all of you guys talk, MY EARS WANT TO FALL OFF, SO SHUT UP ALREADY!!!

[Timmee]

Originally posted by strongboy2005
EVERY POST between this and the last post I did is either flaming me, or the topic. What is the point of this? I already said I'd test it. My friend has a mag with a 14" boomstick, and I have a friend with a cocker 14" boomstick I can slap on my cocker. A table and two vices are easy. We (my team) have two chronos already. I will chrono them +- 3 bps within each other. I will make sure both are running consistantly +- 3bps of each other. There will be a wall 50 feet away from the tips of the barrels of the guns. Both will be shooting a hopper of marbs. I will use a long rod that will be equally pulled on both guns to ensure each gun is firing the same bps (we wouldn't want the cocker to smoke the mag, and look bad on tape). This is the best I can do to prove cockers shoot farther. And when the cocker out-distances the mag you will all say I cheated. But it won't matter, because then I will know the truth, and I can show that tape to any/everyone I know who is tied between the two markers. The cocker will out-distance the mag. You can jot that down as my official hypothesis.

Actually, I didn't flame you or the topic. I merely stated basic physics facts. Oh, and I look forward to viewing your tests.

[Peach]

I'd love to see him on this video...


Strongboy: As you all can see, the mag is chronod in at 280 and the autococker at thr---two eighty. From my results you can see that the autococer shoot further then the mag. The cockers groupings are exactly 3 MM above the mags, therefor the cocker has more range.

[tobz]

That DayWang gets full credit for seeing into the future. He not only predicted it, but nobody tried to change it. He did that on like the 5th post. He should open a psychic shop because he knew the future, and it was unchangable. This proves that everyone has a predetermined destiny, or fate. Too bad, eh? :rolleyes:
-tobz

[Dayspring]

I don't know if that's a dig at me or not... hmmm.

[tobz]

It's good for you! I was only sarcasticizing (yes I made up that word, maybe it's real :)) the fate part, but not in relation to you.

Mad props seeing this coming :)

I agree with all intelligent people, range is the same all around. Sorry if you thought I was stabbing at ya. I don't like strongboy.

tobz

[devildog]

Originally posted by Peach

Strongboy: As you all can see, the mag is chronod in at 280 and the autococker at thr---two eighty. From my results you can see that the autococer shoot further then the mag. The cockers groupings are exactly 3 MM above the mags, therefor the cocker has more range.

do you really think 3 mm makes a difference??? you dont think the wind could have blown a couple balls up 3mm?? there is no way to do this test properly, youd have to have the same exact barrel on both guns, not the same type, the same barrel (cause barrels dont all come out the same), and the same paintballs would have to be used in both guns, cause not all paintballs are the same. also, youd have to take all the air out of the room, there are to many factors to change the results, in a scientific xperiment, only 1 factor can be affected, period.

[Dayspring]

Devildog- Peach was doing a mock results video of Strongboy.

Tobz- No prob. Been dealing with Pre-Calc all day at work, so I'm a little fried.


Originally posted by devildog


do you really think 3 mm makes a difference??? you dont think the wind could have blown a couple balls up 3mm?? there is no way to do this test properly, youd have to have the same exact barrel on both guns, not the same type, the same barrel (cause barrels dont all come out the same), and the same paintballs would have to be used in both guns, cause not all paintballs are the same. also, youd have to take all the air out of the room, there are to many factors to change the results, in a scientific xperiment, only 1 factor can be affected, period.

[la690]

devildog, it was sarcasm:rolleyes:

[Cliffio]

if you put an 18" boomer on that cocker you can most deffinatly outshoot a mag



cliff

[JT2002]

18" boomer? heh, dont waste time with the small stuff and get a 21" tru flite. only kike 40 bux too. :D

[Cliffio]

lol

[ogre55]

Let's forget physics for just a sec and talk logic for a bit. Don't you think that if there was a marker around that could shoot 1/4 mile (fully ten times the distance of any other marker ever made) and that marker had been around for almost 10 years (I'm just guessing here folks on how long the cocker has been around), don't you think that everyone and their mother would own one.

And secondly, when the president of one of the oldest and most respected paintball companies in the world chimes against your point of view, don't you think it's time to give up the ghost?

Oy.

Ogre

[Smokee_2_7]

I would like to take this time to inform you all that this whole thing is pointless. I have just succeded in shooting paintballs over 200 yards with pinpoint accuracy. How? I just put a 36' equation kit on my talon, so. . . . .



Carl

[la690]

i hate when people dont understand sarcasm.

[minimag187]

Mags can fire very fast, but the trigger pull is so heavy theres no way u could. A hinge is easier to shoot faster on than a mag. Yes ive owned 3 mags, great and everything but trigger pulls need work.

[rikkter]

i can't believe this thread has hit 4 pages. all about a hinge frame? :eek:

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by rikkter
i can't believe this thread has hit 4 pages. all about a hinge frame? :eek:

nope! all on cocker mongol's theory on physics! Cocker mongol is trying to destroy all we know on physics.

[davidb]

Showdown at dawn, CockerMongol and Strongboy against Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein!!


if you put an 18" boomer on that cocker you can most deffinatly outshoot a mag
Well of course, that goes without saying. Boomsticks are undeniably magical, and magicalnessness increases with length. But he's trying to say that Cockers can be magicalish without Boomsticks.

Don't worry Strongboy, it's all because of the bias! Of course Tom Kaye is going to mock the flawless theory, he owns the company that makes Mags for crying out loud. When this story gets out he'll never be able to sell his products again! His only hope is to stop you before it's too late! And this site is full of his cronies; they know you're right just like he does. You do your experiment and shut them all down for good. Spread word of your discovery to the masses!

Disclaimer: As some of you seem to be completely oblivious to even the most blatant uses of sarcasm, I would like to point out the fact that it was employed very liberally in this post. If you are still skeptical, feel free to go back and read my other posts. Thank you.

[la690]

lol thanks for the disclaimer, davidb. i dont think i would be able to stand it if i saw one more "thats impossible" post regarding someones sarcasm. but back to buissness, when will we be able to see the results of this test strongboy?

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by ogre55
Let's forget physics for just a sec and talk logic for a bit. Don't you think that if there was a marker around that could shoot 1/4 mile (fully ten times the distance of any other marker ever made) and that marker had been around for almost 10 years (I'm just guessing here folks on how long the cocker has been around), don't you think that everyone and their mother would own one.
To continue your line of reasoning, there is a very good reason WGP does NOT advertise Autocockers as being more accurate or shooting paintballs farther than other guns: they aren't.

[-=Squid=-]

Now, I hate to bring this thread back from the dead, but where did he go? I guess he never decided to prove physics wrong? Oh well...