Jeremy Salms

[maginator]

What exactly happened? I heard he took a matrix into the woods at world cup and shot out players from the other teams and then he took an Angel and thats when he got caught because it was too loud that they could hear him. Im just courious and would like to know.

[yeahthatsme]

if you searched you would find oodles of info but heres a quck run-down:

one of the players of the team he was shooting from the woods saw his hair and ran him down shortly after, he was pulled out of the woods and he apparently had a black trix that he was using.

[cphilip]

The stolen Angel was a totaly seperate unrelated story. It was a referee that did that. He was turned in by his hotel roommate who discovered that this fellow had stolen it and called the police. It was not the same thing at all. It did happen at this years World Cup but another guy was involved. I did see this Angel steeling ref get arrested though. Took me a while to hear what was realy going on.

[fire1811]

im sure im going to catch flak but this whole Jeremy Salm
thing needs to stop.

he made a mistake, yes it was a HUGE mistake(or call it bad judgement whatever) but i talked to him a couple weeks ago and he's still torn up about it. He cant play the game he loves for a year(NPPL). then after that he has to find a team so who knows how long.

everyone makes mistakes!
but i suppose thats just my .oo2

[AutomagBoy]

you guys make it sound like he took a circle K hostage and started firing at everything that moved with a rifle.

[fire1811]

originally posted by AutomagBoy
you guys make it sound like he took a circle K hostage and started firing at everything that moved with a rifle.

AMEN

[Rooster]

"he made a mistake, yes it was a HUGE mistake(or call it bad judgement whatever) but i talked to him a couple weeks ago and he's still torn up about it. He cant play the game he loves for a year. then after that he has to find a team so who know how long. "

Typical. This guy isn't being scapegoated, he's an honest to goodness moron who deserves everything that has happened to him and more. Hopefully he will never be able to play again.

[fire1811]

yep roster im sure u have NEVER done anything wrong in your life that you wish you could take back.

yep it was wrong, he's doing his time

[Rooster]

Nothing thats ever resulted in me having to be punished by the rules commitee of an organization.

Not to mention the fact that his cheating was so blantant and so retarded, I have trouble figuring out how someone can have sympathy for someone so dumb.

[fire1811]

ok
just so u understand, I dont have an ounce of sympathy for
what he did all im saying is that its over and done with
and should stay that way.
like you said he will probably never play pball agian
so why still argue about it?

[shartley]

Originally posted by fire1811
im sure im going to catch flak but this whole Jeremy Salm
thing needs to stop.

What “thing”? Someone asked what happened. Someone answered him.

No one was going out of their way to start threads trashing him (although he may very well deserve it), and in fact, since the last major discussion here on AO there has been NOTHING said about him. And you know why? Because he is not worth the time.

Yes, he cheated…. And did so BIG TIME. He was caught…. BIG TIME. And he paid the price… B….oops, well, he paid something.

Yes, people make mistakes. And generally they pay for them. And if someone asks LATER about it, people will talk about it. Deal with it. There is no “Jeremy Salm “thing”…. It is however part of Paintball History. So stop blaming people for talking about it. If he didn’t DO it, there would be nothing to talk about. :rolleyes:

[fire1811]

What “thing”? Someone asked what happened. Someone answered him.

No one was going out of their way to start threads trashing him (although he may very well deserve it), and in fact, since the last major discussion here on AO there has been NOTHING said about him. And you know why? Because he is not worth the time.

Yes, he cheated…. And did so BIG TIME. He was caught…. BIG TIME. And he paid the price… B….oops, well, he paid something.

Yes, people make mistakes. And generally they pay for them. And if someone asks LATER about it, people will talk about it. Deal with it. There is no “Jeremy Salm “thing”…. It is however part of Paintball History. So stop blaming people for talking about it. If he didn’t DO it, there would be nothing to talk about.

k
i can deal with that
im happy now :D

[shartley]

;) Good man.

[fire1811]

lol my only problem now
is that when i reply i keep haveing to edit
cause i forget to take my sig out :p

[fire1811]

oh yeah bro do u still have some of them keychains?
that was you right?

[Army]

Just so another silly rumor won't get started. Jeremy was banned from all NPPL play, not paintball as a whole.

He can still play in any league that has not yet banned him. Of course, nothing is stopping him from any rec ball.

One of the most childish, ignorant, foolish things I have ever heard of or seen. I have no sympathy for him, or his future in paintball.

[shartley]

Originally posted by fire1811
oh yeah bro do u still have some of them keychains?
that was you right?
Yes, that was me. And yes, there are 5 more available (see Dealers Forum)! :D But they are going fast.

I got your PM and sent one back. :)

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Army
Just so another silly rumor won't get started. Jeremy was banned from all NPPL play, not paintball as a whole.

He can still play in any league that has not yet banned him. Of course, nothing is stopping him from any rec ball.

One of the most childish, ignorant, foolish things I have ever heard of or seen. I have no sympathy for him, or his future in paintball.

And he has played since being banned. From what I have heard on these very boards, Salm played in the Moutain State Tournament series not more than two months ago.

Ogre

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ogre55
Salm played in the Moutain State Tournament series not more than two months ago...

Is that an NPPL event? :(

[ogre55]

Originally posted by cphilip


Is that an NPPL event? :(

I was just adding to what Army posted regarding Salm not being banned from playing in non-NPPL events.

It's also a damn shame to see that after pulling of one of the most shameful stunts in the history of the game, at least that anyone was caught for, he was allowed to come within a mile of any paintball tournament.

Ogre

[cphilip]

Ok. I got ya...I was worried he was allowed to play NPPL already. I would not think that would set a good tone. I too am a bit concerned with the message that this sends and that he has so quickly found employment back in the industry. I would myself not want my company associated with this whole scandal. I dunno what people are thinking here. A message needed to be sent to everyone that cheating is not good for the sport and it had now gone over the top. And it was not the way I see it.

[thecavemankevin]

Yes Salm did the crime, but i think you guys are forgetting the co-conspiritores (Avalanch). In the end, i have no idea if the entire team or only a few of them knew about what Salm was doing, but i do know there is no way he was acting on his own accord. Someone, if not the entire team knew he was going to do it, and unfortunatly was probably doing it the entire time they were at cup and possibly other events too. It is a shame that this happened, but it did and i am glad he got caught. But I don't think he should face this punishment alone.

I think that the entire Team should have been placed on 1 years suspension, not just kicked out of the tournament. What THEY did was wrong and should have recieved more than just a slap on the wrist.

[shartley]

Originally posted by thecavemankevin
Yes Salm did the crime, but i think you guys are forgetting the co-conspiritores (Avalanch). In the end, i have no idea if the entire team or only a few of them knew about what Salm was doing, but i do know there is no way he was acting on his own accord. Someone, if not the entire team knew he was going to do it, and unfortunatly was probably doing it the entire time they were at cup and possibly other events too. It is a shame that this happened, but it did and i am glad he got caught. But I don't think he should face this punishment alone.

I think that the entire Team should have been placed on 1 years suspension, not just kicked out of the tournament. What THEY did was wrong and should have recieved more than just a slap on the wrist.
Well…. actually I did not forget that…..

But it seems you are forgetting one little thing…. PROOF. You can not punish people without PROOF. And the only one that was proven to have broken the rules (understatement) was HIM. ;)

[ogre55]

This has all been argued before, much of it by me and a few of the others on this thread. Whether all or any members of Avalanche were complicit, only Salm was caught. There was no head and fast evidence to implicate the rest of them and without it, punishng the whole team would be questionable.

As for whether Avalanche had ever done this sort of thing before, I don't think so. This was the first tournament in memory where only three sides of each field were netted in, rather than all four. That is how Salm was able to pull his little caper at the '02 Cup.

Also, the amaturish way that Salm went about his caper off points to a one time event. He was dressed in all black in full daylight. Most woods players with a few years under their belts will tell you that this will NOT hide you in the woods in daylight. You will be a silhouetted and stand out like a sore thumb.

Ogre

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ogre55
This has all been argued before, much of it by me and a few of the others on this thread. Whether all or any members of Avalanche were complicit, only Salm was caught. There was no head and fast evidence to implicate the rest of them and without it, punishng the whole team would be questionable.

Ogre

Yes I agree. There is no evidence to implicate the others knew about it and even by his own admission he acted alone. Thats all there was to that. The whole team did have to withdraw though so they did suffer somewhat. But since the act had occured on thier behalf that was the only way to fix it for that event. But I do not at this time think they were involved in it or knew anything about it. At least I hope not. And without any evidence it would be unfair to them to even suggest it now.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
...And without any evidence it would be unfair to them to even suggest it now.

I disagree. I have NO problem holding a team responsible for the actions of it's members.

[ffcocker]

i agree with hitech hes a member of the team there fore anything he does is the same as the whole team doing it imo if they enforced the rules like that i think it would send a big message to everyone out there that cheats

[thecavemankevin]

Originally posted by ffcocker
i agree with hitech hes a member of the team there fore anything he does is the same as the whole team doing it imo if they enforced the rules like that i think it would send a big message to everyone out there that cheats


guilty by association!

[cphilip]

Originally posted by hitech
I disagree. I have NO problem holding a team responsible for the actions of it's members.

Well you agree with me then! There was no evidence that team was involved and indeed jeremy said he acted alone and he was not playing on the team at the time. So we agree the others were not responsible for his actions. Because there was no evidence that they knew of it nor condoned it. Jeremy even says that the case. They say thats the case. No proof otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty. And they all were made to suffer some for it.

I too would hold the team responsible if there was evidence they were involved. And throw the book at em!

The whole team did suffer in loss of reputation and in the withdrawal from a major tournament. And the team will never be again. In spite of the fact that there was no evidence they participated in the action. But it was done on their behalf so that was nessicary. And it was the right thing to do. So they were held accountable as much as they could be.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
...he was not playing on the team at the time...The whole team did suffer in loss of reputation and in the withdrawal from a major tournament.

First let me say that I have no problem with how it was handled. However, if we was a member of that team (how you determine that is open for discussion ;) ) then I would personally have no problem holding the ENTIRE team just as responsible as Jermey. However, I don't have all the facts, and based on my "inside" information everyone envolved has suffered.

I'm still amazed that it happened. :(

[cphilip]

Originally posted by hitech
I'm still amazed that it happened. :(

I got no idea either what would even bring someone to even consider doing it let alone do all the efforts to follow through and do it. I mean it just makes me have to question his whole basic morals which are not subject to change. Something like that is hard to explain away as a simple lapse of judgement.

[soaklord]

I don't understand the surprise and shock. Watch any tournament and you will see players playing through hits, which happens to be cheating. Cheating is cheating, the problem is that paintball has allowed it to take place on the field for too long, so now people are finding more innovative ways of cheating. Jeremy's actions are indicative of why paintball is having so many problems despite being mainstream. And it is mainstream, more people played paintball last year than any other extreme sport excepting rollerblading and snowboarding. Number three with over eighteen million people having played and it can't get onto television, wonder why? Because ethical standards need not be present in sports that only have one player at a time. Until paintball holds its own accountable, every day, every time, there is not going to be any respectability. For example, Avalanche got kicked out of one tournament, for cheating. What if every intentional wiper had his team kicked out of a tournament? Every player who played through a shot? When the "best" of the sport have no conscience, the sport has no conscience. Until we enforce that...

[hitech]

Originally posted by soaklord
Watch any tournament and you will see players playing through hits, which happens to be cheating. Cheating is cheating, the problem is that paintball has allowed it to take place on the field for too long...

Actually, that has surprised me also. I still find it amazing that we have gone BACKWARDS where playing on is concerned. The last tournament I played in if you played on with a hit, WITH OR WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO "SEE" IT, you were penalized. YOU, the player, were responsible for calling yourself out, PERIOD. If you weren't sure it broke, it was up to YOU to find out. And you were NOT allowed to continue to play until you determined it.

I've heard many people complain that you sometimes can't feel it when you are hit. Honestly, when was the last time you will hit and didn't have ANY idea? I think the very few times it actually happens is FAR less that the number of times a tournament player plays on after knowing a paintball has hit them.

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. ;)

[cphilip]

I agree its time to clean it all up for the good of the sport.

An obvious hit is well defined in the NPPL rules and its up to the player and his teamates to determine if its an elimination. Thats the rule. Its time to get back to the basics and quit blaming refs and making them have to catch you. Pentalties need to be severe enough that its not worth chancing doing it.

[soaklord]

Definitely! If a player knew that playing through a hit meant that any eliminations he got after the hit were allowed back into the game and for every elimination, the cheating players team lost a player, how many would take that chance?

[rpm07]

lets end this he is a a** that puts a bad name in the sport the less we talk about it the better.

[thecavemankevin]

i do like the idea that if a player is caught wipeing the entire team is yanked.

However, i personally feel that if you are shot and it is not obvious to you (whether it is on your back,pack, or whatever) that it is the refs responsability to pull you. Just like in football (if you are running the line and step out of bounds it is the refs responsability.

Now is that completely honest....yes. If you don't know and can't tell then thats what the refs there for. Now if you can and do not that it is a break...then absolutely you should call yourself or paintcheck at the very least.

[hitech]

Originally posted by thecavemankevin
However, i personally feel that if you are shot and it is not obvious to you (whether it is on your back, pack, or whatever) that it is the refs responsability to pull you.
I disagree.

[Soap Box)
You KNOW that you were hit. You can FEEL it. The only thing you are not sure anout is whether is broke or not. It should be YOUR responsibility to find out. If you continue to play and are marked you are penalized. Playing on will go WAY down if it is done this way.
[/Soap Box]

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech

I disagree.

[Soap Box)
You KNOW that you were hit. You can FEEL it. The only thing you are not sure anout is whether is broke or not. It should be YOUR responsibility to find out. If you continue to play and are marked you are penalized. Playing on will go WAY down if it is done this way.
[/Soap Box]
[kicking over his own box and stepping up]
I agree!
[/losing balance and stumbling off]

[cphilip]

Actualy the rule on "Non Obvious" hits is there in the NPPL rules for the reason that you do not know you are hit. If you are hit on the pack or even the very front of the hopper you may not feel it at all. You will be called out but it will not result in a penalty. If you feel it then it is an obvious hit and you must verify. If you define the hit as one you can feel its an "obvious hit" under the NPPL definitions. It dose not mean you can see it. But if you feel it you are supposed to get a check from a ref or a team mate WITHOUT continuing play. You may stop firing and take cover is all you can do until you are cleared. many think they can keep playing as normal but you are risking a pentaly. And should be! So you both realy agree.

I have seen Non obvious hits on folds of packs the player could not have felt at all. So the call was your out but no penalty. Teamates and Refs are responsible for Non obvious hits. You cannot realy be as you didn't know it. But your out!

I saw a guy once come out of the side of his bunker and immediately shake the sting off his hand and then glance at it, yelled paint check but they he ups and goes right back to shooting! While he is yelling paint check! The Ref was running to him at that point of course. Soon as the ref got close enough to see the paint he was out and the ref was looking up field to see if anyone had been hit on the other team and looking for a man close on his team to pull. He was pissed at the penatly. But thats the rule and the Ref was doing what he should have done. Its just a matter of enforcement.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Actualy the rule on "Non Obvious" hits is there in the NPPL rules for the reason that you do not know you are hit. If you are hit on the pack or even the very front of the hopper you may not feel it at all.

Honestly, when was the last time this happened to YOU? It happens, but it is VERY infrequently. What happens far more often is someone is hit and CLAIMS that they did not know. Making the player responsible for ALL hits takes the guess work and subjectivity out of it. Play one with a hit and you are penalized.

That said, you could have a lesser penality for "Non Obvious" hits. That's how is use to be. It seemed to be working.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Its just a matter of enforcement.
Yes, inforcement is a BIG problem. However, I think taking more of the subjectivity out of it would make inforcement easier. It's a penality, you can just argue the amount of "punishment".

[cphilip]

Twice it happened in the last three man that I reffed. One on the back of a pod in a pack and once on the very front of a guys hopper.

In addition that same day we paint checked after a flag hang and found paint on the front of the pants of a young lady. She then told us she had tripped on the break and shot herself in the leg. But she didn't think it had broken. She was declaired out but no penalty was assessed but could have been. She should have made her bunker and called a check. She did not. It was a relaxed torney and so we were not as harsh as we could have been and it taught her a lesson. But normally they would not have been so lucky. Thats an example of a mental mistake on a self inflicted obvious hit that leads to a penalty. Or could and should

Once I played on with a non obvious hit myself. I was shot right down the barrel! I had no idea! I though for some reason I was chopping or something.

it happens more than you would think.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by hitech

Yes, inforcement is a BIG problem. However, I think taking more of the subjectivity out of it would make inforcement easier. It's a penality, you can just argue the amount of "punishment".

I agree that non obvious hits are less frequent. Perhaps the solution is more Two for ones rather than one for ones in real blatant cases. Or even three for ones!

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Twice it happened in the last three man that I reffed. One on the back of a pod in a pack and once on the very front of a guys hopper.
These hits were on someone else. You can only ASSUME that they did not have ANY idea they were hit. I'm willing to bet that is not the case. The one with the hit on very front of the hopper probably knew something hit it. He just didn't know if it broke. In that case, you should NOT be allowed to play on until you know if it broke. It's also likely the hit on the pack was the same. He knew something hit him, just didn't know if it broke.


Once I played on with a non obvious hit myself. I was shot right down the barrel! I had no idea! I though for some reason I was chopping or something.

I think we can all agree that doesn't happen very often! ;)

Funny though, it has happened to me also (kinda). :eek:


It happens more than you would think.
I don't think so. I think it happens VERY infrequently. I think that players know a paintball made contact with them. They just don't know if it broke.

[cphilip]

No seriously niether one of em knew it had even hit. They both occured during runs and they were off glancing shots. Not a lot of paint but still enough. I am certain they did not know. In fact they were both stunned when I ran up and called em out. And both of them are people I know and they are clean players...

Well maybe I should have said more often than some people think. But its still not a every game sort of thing. Weird things happen in batches though. Seems like you get a day like that and you think to yourself what else is gonna happen today. You might go through a whole tourney and not see one single one. And then one you see em all! Murphy's law. But they do exist. And the rules are there because they do.

In the case of those two players that I know their style they were shocked and embarassed they didn't know! They may not have ever had it happen to them before. I think that was the case from everything I could tell. I feel confident it was.

[soaklord]

cphilip,
It sounds like you are on your game as a ref, but that doesn't appear to be a norm, rather an exception. If the reps hold more players accountable and use their power to penalize this kind of thing would stop, or atleast decrease. I would love to see more honorable teams win more regularly. I think the point about potential 2 for ones or even 3 for ones is dead on. A 3 for 1 would kill even a five man team, and make it far less likely to take risks. Who holds refs accountable? At this time, are any refs paid for their services? If not, perhaps a check from the NPPL or governing body of the tournament and the potential to lose that check would make refs more likely to call better games. If so, whoever is paying for the refs seems to get gipped a lot.

[cphilip]

Well all things are relative. If it happens once a day is that a lot? If it happens once every three tournements is that a lot? I realy think we are getting into a mish mash of terminolgy and interepretation of what "More Often than you think" means than we are of that it realy does occur. I realy didn't intend to mean anything other than if it happend once a day with over 20 games it might be more often than was implied here earlier by others which sounded like they felt it just NEVER happens. So we can put that to bed as I know that we will probably agree on a similar number but maybe call it a different thing. I think it happening once in that day was suprising. It was to me.

I do know the rule was put in there because it happens and did happen. You ever seen the rule of not shooting at hang gliders? Think they forsaw that? No! Someone had to do it! crazy as it sounds. Weird huh? I figure this happened a few times and they had to think about it and include it. Enough times to at least consider it worthy of a whole distinction of the two kinds of hits.s

As far as I know Refs at major tornaments are all paid by the event. NPPL ones are. Not all events pay but those do at least. The problem is how they are chosen. They complete a class and thats it. And if they know someone to get the hook up they are asked to do it. I know Bill Cookston has tried to get a professional ref thing organized but I have not seen it actually work well yet. He is there but I bet he didn't chose all the ref team that is there. He has to take what is availvble. And I think the event promotor lines them up. I know that I and Fatman had volunteered to ref down at WC this year and they seemed to have trouble getting enough refs but still we got no call from them. And when I got there I saw people reffing that should not have been. I know we were better than some of those choices I saw. But I also did see a lot of good ones too. So I think its somewhat disorganized and people get called who know people. Not chosen because they had good reffing skills. And from what I can see their reffing skills are not evaluated on the field and people eliminated from reffing unless there is a gross incident that catches Bills attention. And I am sure that many of them do not get back to him. I do study my skills on that and the rules because I try and do a good job. As old as I am I am more inclined to ref than play.

[Smoke]

He he he...

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=530463

[Smoke]

Originally posted by hitech


I disagree. I have NO problem holding a team responsible for the actions of it's members.

Sorry to get involved, but that is a bad statement. 2 of my teammates were arrested for breaking into someone's house, and stealing a safe that contained money, bullets, and drugs. I know this incident didn't happen on a paintball field, but even off the field we still represent the sport of paintball. The next day after I found this out, I kicked both of them off my team. Now, can you hold the rest of us accountable for their actions? I hope not. Like I said, even though it didn't happen on a field, it still dosen't say alot about us if we were to leave them on, so that's why they got the boot. I honestly don't have one ounce of respect for Salm, but until proven otherwise, don't hold Avalance responsible. Please, don't be so quick to judge people that may not have anything to do with the given scenario. Thanks.
-Chris- :)

[hitech]

Originally posted by automagfreek
Two of my teammates were arrested for breaking into someone's house, and stealing a safe that contained money, bullets, and drugs. I know this incident didn't happen on a paintball field...but until proven otherwise, don't hold Avalanche responsible.

I was only referring to what happens at a tournament. That said, I would have NO problem holding Avalanche responsible for the acts performed by Salm. That is, provided he was part of their team. However, I also don't have a problem with them NOT holding the team responsible. It's a tough decision and thankfully I don't have to make it.

[srrdude]

In the olympics if someone from team america or any team is tested positive for some sort or roids they are kicked out. But is the whole team? No. On the non-obvious hits issue, i hafta say they happen quite often. When someone comes over a bunker the first thing and the biggest thing that shows is the hopper (unless your stealthy with a warp like me :P). So naturally thats the biggest target. You may easily take a hopper hit and never know it becus your obviously not gonna feel it, and if your firing you prob. wont hear it either. Also, when im making a mad dash or i dive somewhere or when im bunkering someone, my back may show, like when i dive, my back is up. My pack holds 5 pods (im a front man) and it covers nearly my whole lower back. I take some shots there.

And finally Salm *sighs*

Look, lets face it. He was retarded. He was stupid, he made a horrible decision and executed it poorly and i in no way condone what he did and i would never in my life pull a stunt like that and hes got what he deserves, but i think you guys are being to harsh. Do you recal when the Rockets player Yao Mingh first came to america? Shaq made jokes bout the chinese culture and language and it was very innapropriate. I being a chink (actually im korean.. and half white.. but stereotypes are easier) myself was quite angry. But he keeps playin. Granted it is a little bit different grounds, but take Mike tyson for example. Really now who bites an ear? Well he still plays. I Think that Salm needs to apologize to... the paintballing community, the nppl, avalanche, BE, the people running the event.. everyone. Then i think he should be put out of The nppl for a year as already done, and then i think everyone should forget bout it. Everyone makes mistakes. And other than those who cause direct loss of life, everyone gets a second chance. I think that Salm, despite doing an incredibly fart sucking thing as he did, should get another chance if he proves himself worthy. After apologizing maybe he could like do all the dirty work for an entire season with little or no pay.

Besides the Punishment he already has, Jeremy will hafta live with the shame forever, and that to me is punishment enuff (but i hope he gets some crap anyways)

[ogre55]

Srrdude, I agree with pretty much your whole statement except that Salm has NOT apoligized, except in the statements he made right after the incident. And as for his behavior, as I said above, he decided to go ahead and enter an non-NPPL event less than three months after WC. What does that show? 1) That the tournament organizers of that event have their respective heads firmly tied into various parts of their anatomies (but that is another thread altogether), and 2) that Salm apparently feels little remourse to the millions of paintball players worldwide that he insulted by his antics.

Was Salm strictly prohibited from playing in the MST, or coaching a rookie team (which he has also done, and may still be actively doing)? No, not strictly. However, if I were to be in his shoes (ick) and I wanted to some day again be well regarded, I would not act like that.

He seems to think that his little sob story ("I don't know what came over me") has assuaged all the anger and upset that he has caused. It has not done so for me. I hope that once the next season rolls around, the proffessional and industry paintball community will show him, and anyone else who acts like this, that such behavior is not acceptable.

Alas, however, I am afraid that my hopes will be dashed, if people keep blathering this forgive and forget nonsense.

Ogre

[magsRus]

He cheated and I'm willing to bet all of you have wiped once in your life, just because his degree of cheating was more serious doesnt mean anything. CHEATING IS CHEATING!

[srrdude]

Well ogre i partially agree with that... He didnt apologize yet and that is ridiculous.. too much of a coward imo. But i dont think that three months and what not is bad.. i think he shouldve apologized before entering the MST tho.

MagsRus- AMEN!! i wiped once.. and i see noob kids doin it all the time when i ref...

[shartley]

Originally posted by magsRus
He cheated and I'm willing to bet all of you have wiped once in your life, just because his degree of cheating was more serious doesnt mean anything. CHEATING IS CHEATING!
And crime is crime! If you steal a loaf of bread, or a candy bar, you are just as bad as the guy who killed 10 people! Just because one degree of crime is more serious doesn’t mean anything. CRIME IS CRIME!

;)

[srrdude]

meh.. when u put it that way..

[ogre55]

Originally posted by srrdude
Well ogre i partially agree with that... He didnt apologize yet and that is ridiculous.. too much of a coward imo. But i dont think that three months and what not is bad..

What do you mean? Three months is enough? Three months is too much?


i think he shouldve apologized before entering the MST tho.

Apology or not, he desearved a harsh penalty. Whether the penalty he received was harsh enough will be decided in the 2004 season, when (and this is conditional on whether he is sponsered and participates) we see if he plays clean, gray or dirty.

On a side note, and I am surprised that no one has brought this up yet, he was suspended from the NPPL/PSP. Now that those two organanizations are seperate entities, can he play in the 2003 PSP tournaments. NPPL was the sanctioning body, so it's a no brainer that he is still suspended from the Super 7. But the PSP was just the promoter. Now that they are no longer sanctioned by the NPPL, theoretically, Salm would be able to play in PSP tournaments.

If the PSP allowed him to play and ignored his suspension, not only would it be a slap in the face of the NPPL, but, imo it would be a slap to the face of all paintball players everywhere.


i wiped once.. and i see noob kids doin it all the time when i ref...

So does seeing noobs wipe make it the right thing to do? And what do you do when you ref and see these kids wipe? Do you pull them. Do you 1-1 or 2-1 them?

Ogre

[mykroft]

One of the problems is that reffing is usually pretty bad.

Anybody see the Bushwackers ref Skyball?

Bad call after bad call. No 1 for 1's for playing through, no penalties for wiping, then pulling 2-3 guys off one team for nothing.

Until the reffing situation at major events is cleared up, we will have a major cheating problem.

Salm's just the worst of the lot.

[WARPED1]

There was worse cheating by nearly every pro at the Cup,I was there!Only Salm got caught that I saw.But there was blatant wiping in nearly every pro game,hot guns,sideline coaching................
So leave poor Salm/ninjaboy alone.He messed up big time,and he's paying for it.I'd take him on my team.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by hitech

I disagree.

[Soap Box)
You KNOW that you were hit. You can FEEL it. The only thing you are not sure anout is whether is broke or not. It should be YOUR responsibility to find out. If you continue to play and are marked you are penalized. Playing on will go WAY down if it is done this way.
[/Soap Box]

I disagree with you. We need more honest players and better reffing. I wear very baggy pants and boots when I play. You hit my boots and I won't feel it. Hit my pants and I probably won't feel it. I can't tell you how many paintballs I find in my pockets after a game, unbroken of course. Baggy pants are great for trapping balls. I have even taken balls out of my pockets and fired them back as a joke in rec play. Get hit in a pod, you going to feel that?

If I feel any kind of hit, I will call for a piant check. However, I have caught shots in the folds of pants that broke that I didn't feel. Heck I didn't notice until a teammate told me to clean off the side of my knee before the next game. No wiping, not intentional. Had someone pointed it out to me, I would have left the game. I just did not feel it at all.

[mykroft]

Warped1, you can have Salm. But if he show's up to my tourney, I ain't playing with him.

Bad enough you cheat on the field, but he wasn't even playing.

Heh, I met the guy from GZ who beat the crap out of Salm when he got caught. Great guy.

[WARPED1]

I was there when he went running out of the dead box after ninjaboy!I was like "WTF?"

[ogre55]

Salm is lucky the GZ guy didn't beat him into the ground, but rather just caught him and dragged him out of the woods screaming like the "female dog" that he is.

Ogre

[srrdude]

ogre- i meant that three months wouldve been long enuff IF he apologized (three months b4 playin tourney) but that doesnt include nppl/psp.... he deserves his punishment there. Also, i pull the wiper and the closest teamate.. as unfair to him that may be.

warped- i wouldnt play with salm. He may earn another chance but until he clears his reputation...

[hitech]

We need more honest players and better reffing.
I'm all for that. At least the second is possible. ;)


I wear very baggy pants and boots when I play...Baggy pants are great for trapping balls.
Pants like that are/should be against the rules.


Get hit in a pod, you going to feel that?
Sure. I've been hit many, many times in the pods. I can only remember one that I did not feel.


I have caught shots in the folds of pants that broke that I didn't feel. Heck I didn't notice until a teammate told me to clean off the side of my knee before the next game. No wiping, not intentional.
With "proper" fitting clothing that would be eliminated. Also, I'm not trying to say that it never happens. However, those who play fair would be far, far better off with these rules. For those few times you might get penalized when you didn't know you were hit you would have those playing against you with go out more often and/or be penalized more. I know that I would certainly take that trade off.

[ogre55]

i meant that three months wouldve been long enuff IF he apologized (three months b4 playin tourney)

I guess this is a matter of personal preference. I don't think that playing in a tourny three months after WC was proper, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this one. Never mind the fact that he is a "Pro" player participating in a "non-Pro" tournament, but that is another thread (and in my opinion another nail in his coffin).



Also, i pull the wiper and the closest teamate.. as unfair to him that may be.


Pulling a 1-1 for wiping is not unfair to the teammate. It's unfair to the opposition who are playing rec ball (I assume) and all they want is a nice fun day of paintball.

Maybe, with the help of his teammate who was pulled, the offending player will learn his lesson.

Ogre

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by hitech

Pants like that are/should be against the rules.
Sure. I've been hit many, many times in the pods. I can only remember one that I did not feel.
With "proper" fitting clothing that would be eliminated. Also, I'm not trying to say that it never happens. However, those who play fair would be far, far better off with these rules. For those few times you might get penalized when you didn't know you were hit you would have those playing against you with go out more often and/or be penalized more. I know that I would certainly take that trade off.

Change the rules and I'll change my pants. I like wearing baggy pants as it better camoflauges my girth;) . I guess my girth is what pads pod hits. I should also clarify what I meant by a pod hit. I am talking about that long ball hit that you wouldn't even feel if you were hit in the goggles. A close up pod hit you will always feel.

I still think better refs and more honest players are the solution.

Leave Baggy pants alone. They are a fat guy's best friend!:p

[hitech]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but here is an excerpt from the NPPL rules:

5.03. Players must wear pants or shirts or jackets that fit well. Players may not wear oversized clothing. If a judge deems that a player's clothing is oversized, the judge may require new attire or make temporary adjustments using tape, pins, etc.

But hey, nothing will probably stop you from wearing it for rec play. ;)

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by hitech
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but here is an excerpt from the NPPL rules:

5.03. Players must wear pants or shirts or jackets that fit well. Players may not wear oversized clothing. If a judge deems that a player's clothing is oversized, the judge may require new attire or make temporary adjustments using tape, pins, etc.

But hey, nothing will probably stop you from wearing it for rec play. ;)

Woohoo! I got a lawsuit! This rule blatantly discriminates against overweight Americans! Is that a protected group now? Who do I sue?;) :p