Taiwan Paintguns, some look Strangely Familiar...

[AGD]

AO,

Check out this website. Look at the last marker in the Warloard series. I wonder what Budd would think.

AGD

http://www.paintguns.com.tw/english/inside/a1.asp

[nippinout]

Tinker's Guild had a thread about this.

Strange things abrewing. They have an agreement where they can't distribute the cocker clone to the US, but Canada's ok.

Check out the thread.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1045581015

[zads27]

Oh man, that is hillarious.

Those damn Taiwanese/Chinese = Bootlegged dvd movies, bootlegged clothing ('Gues Jeans' -not a typo- anyone?), never thought it would reach bootlegged paintball markers.


[btw, i'm taiwanese myself and i absolutely love the country, but this stuff just cracks me up.]

[Bad Dave]

A field I used to work at had a Chinese machine shop knock off a spyder for them, worked out at £15 per gun ($25?)

[ogre55]

The Warlord is a blatant copy of the 'Cocker, just as the Attila is a copy of the PMI Pirahana, which is itself a Spyder clone.

But how is this different from the dozens of US manufacturers who make 'Cockers without any stock WGP parts? I don't think WGP license those designs, as they not have a patent to do so, at least that is what I gathered from an article on Bud Orr run that was run in Facefull a few months back.

Ogre

[VCK]

The Shogun looks a lot like WGP new Ranger, and the Anubis is of course a cocker clone.

The first of the Flash series is interesting though a 12 shot pump mp5.

Oh yeah and check out the listed velocity on the Zeus 600 fps :)

[shartley]

I am confused… is that a paintball site or a manga site? ;)

Yes, more “if you can’t come up with your own product, steel it from the US (or other places) and produce it cheaper”. I wonder if they come with a free “Rolex”…… ;)

:rolleyes:

[Wc Keep]

you gotta admit thats one impressive site.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
you gotta admit thats one impressive site.
I hope that was a joke…..

No, I don’t have to admit that, because is isn’t. Don’t be fooled by lots of “picture mixes” and flash menus. I found the site to have very poor color choices and caters to the “look something is moving” crowd.

But to each their own.

[ezrunner]

well,

I know that it is common practice for merchandise that is successful in the US market to be cloned by the larger distributors. They just have it done in china and shipped here.

Those spyders look like some of the next gen stuff I'm seeing from one group now. The cocker surprises me though. It looks like they literally have the same parts.

How funny would it be to have METRIC THREADED cockers running around.

oh well. You make a great gun, people buy it, people copy it.

-rob

[-=Squid=-]

OK, the first one in the warlord series is a BOSS (Now owned by WGP) Dark raider. The second is a ranger. the third is obviously a cocker made out of scrap upgrade parts :D I wonder how much they cost :D

[thecavemankevin]

barrel thread autococker
no.....really? what a surprise.


Well they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


Tom, didn't you guys have a similar problem with this a number of years ago in Europe somewhere?

[Webmaster]

The grumblings *I* have heard is WGP is now making much of their product over seas - to compete with the mutliple knockoffs of their products already here. The company in Tiawan makes the cocker, or parts of its - and ships them to the US. And in the contract they too can sell the guns - just not to markest that compete with WGP directly...

Thats the rumor I have peiced together. I dont think its just a knock off - because they are using the EXACT same parts as the what is on WGPs stuff. If it was a knock off you would think they would add some different flavor.

[Webmaster]

I dont think its about profits - its about survival.

If a company is making a nearly identical product in both performance and quality (as the cocker knock off are) - you cant expect WGP to survive if they arent competivly priced. Listen to players whine about cost of play. They dont care if its WGP or not - they want a good cocker cheap.

[Jerhew]

well that really turned my stomach

don't get me wrong
i think it's cool that paintball is taking off globally...
everyone should be able to enjoy it

on the other hand...
seeing some generic knockoff that's so rediculously obvious, or even worse, the original company throwing it's integrity aside and allowing the knockoff in the name of greed...
pfft
it's just the wrong way.

[jwyke]

Originally posted by Jerhew
in the name of greed...


Part of our American system is called capitalism where companies or individuals produce a product or provide a service for which they charge a proce in the hopes of making a product. No profit = no company.

If you have an objection with the way a company does business, don't buy thier products. If enough people don't buy the products the company goes out of business.

Personally, I consider the origin of a product in looking at a purchase. I definitely will buy an American made product before a foreign produced one if the option is available. My personal choice.

Orr makes great markers... people buy them... sounds like good business to me.

[FalconGuy016]

Man it doesn't even look like they did anything themselves besides getting a bunch of 2k2 cockers and putting shiney parts on them

same with the other guns, they are SO blantantly copied, I wouldnt be surprized if they had no part in manufactering them at all

[speedyejl]

It wouldnt be that bad if they called it the Anubus Cocker but claiming it is their own is ridiculous.

[FooTemps]

Wow... I think taiwan has offcially surpassed hong kong in bootlegging... Man, I need to go back there sometime. If I can get it back over to the US I'll buy one and post a review.

[SeeK]

I can't wait until they start producing paintballs. Imagine the shooting costs dropping by 50% or more likely the volume of paint going up 100%.

[ezrunner]

Now I have to wonder about the quality of paint shipped in a container from china to the US and then carried by truck to the destination.

Those are not favorible conditions for our friend the paintball.

-rob

(TC maybe?)

[GT]

Why do I get the feeling that these arnt knockoffs?

Next question,
Tom when you guys outsource, contract out, some of the machining is it all on US soil?

jb

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Why do I get the feeling that these arnt knockoffs?

Next question,
Tom when you guys outsource, contract out, some of the machining is it all on US soil?

jb


BEcause the webmaster said they werent? :rolleyes: :D ;)

[AGD]

I am absoulutely, positively telling you that all of the parts we have custom made are made here in the states(or in the case of xmags, England). There may be things like fittings or guages that are made somewhere else but all of the stuff we design is made here.

There is huge pressure on us to lower prices though. Our parts cost for a basic gun is well beyond what the retail price is from overseas. Its going to be up to you to decide if your willing to pay more for products made by people dedicated to your sport.

This brings to mind the events of the 70's when the Japanese started importing cheap cars. The cry went out to "buy American" but mostly no one cared. Now the imports have a larger share of the market than the home growns.

Not a single VCR has ever been made in this country. Our TV industry is now dead and gone. It's a coin toss to see if our paintball industry can hang in there for the long term.

It's exclusively your decision.

AGD

[FooTemps]

Well, if we stay innovative and if we have that drive to stay on top of the paintball world... We've got it locked down.

[Jerhew]

beat me to it footemps
have to stay one step ahead of them(if not 3 or 4...):D

[FooTemps]

3 or 4 gets you in the position of AGD... lol, sorry Tom but I think you know what I mean. I mean, if you look around mags are outnumbered even though they are a couple steps ahead of the competition.

[ezrunner]

I'm wondering, how is the mag really ahead of the competition?

I look at the paintball market and I see a few things that are really important to a tourney player:

Rate of Fire
Reliability
Ease on Paint
Consistency / Accuracy
Efficiency
Weight
Ease of Maintanence

The Xmag (AGD's Flagship for now) has good standings in each of these categories.

What I'm wondering is how can it be said to be a couple steps ahead?

The biggest advantages I see to the mag are the simple system and the dual modes of fire (E v/s Manual).

Many electros have a sensor to detect the presence of a ball so as not to chop paint.

Electros can all be adjusted to a rate of fire that is all but full auto. That is almost a non-issue.

The mag is very reliable for long periods of time. The only thing I can think of that is a pain is the power tube oring and the bolt spring. These both take a lot of time and paint to wear out.

Consistency/Accuracy, well, it's a 1000 dollar gun w/ a dual regulated air supply. I'll leave this as a given.

Efficiency: the mag could improve here. I'm not going to jump into a religious discussion, but there are markers that do this better.

Weight: well, each player wants a differnt feel. While the mag is not the lightest gun out there, not everyone wants a feather weight marker. By mag in this context I mean xmag.

Ease of maintanence: the mag is a testament to easy of care. That is a huge selling point.


How can the mag be said to be steps ahead?

Well, the dual modes of fire offer the ultimate backup, the one you carry on the field.

The design is very reliable and consistent.

The efficiency (# of shots per tank) could improve but is not in the bad range at all.

One thing that has to change is perception. We need to see more, good, teams shooting this gun.

As you see pro's and other high caliber talent using these markers, people will pick up on them more.

That is the biggest thing. I can't think of anything my race framed aka merlin does that an xmag wouldn't.

The cocker is a little lighter and does get a lot of shots per tank, but those are the only two benefits.

The mag is more tolerant of conditions and has the dual modes of fire. If my cocker's electro frame goes down, I'm w/o a gun in the game.

Would I trade the cocker for an Xmag? Probably not, it took me 3 years to get all the stuff to build it.

Would I shoot an Xmag? Heck YEAH. To me walking onto a tournament field is business. You go as a professional, one part of that is taking equipment that works. I don't care about looks so much as whether or not this marker will make it w/ me all day at an event. That is what matters.

-rob

[FooTemps]

Ok, agd stopped advancing after a while... But I mean, AGD first came out with the N2 idea... That got rejected but Air America took the idea up later. Then AGD comes out with the powerfeed... and they lose it to another company. Then AGD comes out with the RT, fastest recharging valve. Then the emag comes out with dual modes. You get the trend? They've at least had some advancement that hasn't been seen on any paintball gun. People thought n2 was dangerous when AGD brought it up. I don't know the deal with the powerfeed. Then the RT comes out... and people make reactive triggers. Then the emag comes out with dual modes... no one yet to do that...

[Dover]

tack on superbolts I and II; and working in conjunction with Pro-Team Products on the Micromag series markers, Flatline series nitro tanks, and Warp Feed.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Dover
tack on superbolts I and II; and working in conjunction with Pro-Team Products on the Micromag series markers, Flatline series nitro tanks, and Warp Feed.

the superbolts, ptp micromag, flatline weren't really steps ahead though... the warp feed is though

[ezrunner]

I think the biggest travesty is that the true innovators in any industry get trampled in about a 6 to 1 ratio.

Every time these guys make something new and exciting, they get it to market, and someone rips them off and then capitalizes on their market.

This is what copyrights and patents are for.

AGD's warp....great idea. It paved the way for the HALO in many ways. People saw what a faster feed system could do for their play. Nothing has that profile on any marker now.

RT - well, this was a great way to get rate of fire from a mechanical gun. Too bad NPPL is giving it a hard time.

The micro's and the flatline tank I don't understand your point about? Many companies have other groups doing special runs of their markers. Proteam did mags and cockers.

The flatline tank is another high performance reg. There are many out there. I have nothing against it at all. I just don't see the huge innovation there.

The blowforward concept and the encapsulation method of the mag was great. The trigger actuating a valve directly? Who would have ever thought of that? (some hack named Tom Kaye)

His new guns apparently set off the need for faster feeders from the beginning. I have some friends who started shooting these in '92? They were there when the revolution came out and started feeding paint so they could shoot faster.

I'm not saying AGD doesn't have some of the better ideas about how to do stuff.

I just want to be able to justify statements about this type of thing.

The Mag is a hot topic, many people love it or hate it. There aren't too many in the middle of the stream on that one.

-rob

[FooTemps]

I think the biggest thing that basically revolutionalized the paintball world is that AGD did was getting people on the track of thinking of using N2.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Whoo hoo, I just cancled my spyder order and carded me a Auto-Mig. $49.95. Compatable with Automag parts.

Seriously though.

People want to know why Communism is so bad. If someone came out with an Auto Mig than everyone would be buying Automigs for $49.95 and complaining that they were crap. So people would be bad mouthing John Doe product and John Doe would lose money from sales.

Communism is bad and when peopel talk about free health care what we ought to be doing is taxing imports in this country and using the revenue to create decent jobs so people can afford health care!

Communism is bad bad bad.

[spantol]

Interesting. If a low-cost, lower-quality automag knockoff were to appear, the market would decide whether or not the trade-off was worth it. That's capitalism in action. Also, free health care is a socialist platform, not strictly limited to communist regimes. Last I heard, Canada hadn't gone red.

You managed to confuse communism with both capitalism and socialism all in one post. Impressive.

[Load SM5]

Originally posted by thecavemankevin

Tom, didn't you guys have a similar problem with this a number of years ago in Europe somewhere?

A European company made a mag knock-off called the Colonial. Tom started selling Automags packaged with Viewloaders in Europe, forcing the Colonial guys to lower their prices and lose money.

[j.t.]

Not only is it a cheap knockoff of good paintball markers but I think they tried to make a knockoff of a good website too.
:eek:

[WARPED1]

Am I blind?I saw no cocker clone.Spyder clone yes.

[Load SM5]

Go to the warlord series, 3rd gun in the line.

[WARPED1]

I see it now,I like the Shogun.

[SlartyBartFast]

I shouldn't, but I do have to say it.

The complaints of cheaper oversea products depriving good americans of jobs is pathetic. It's racist and xenophobic. If you really beleive in freedom and capitalism then you really shouldn't have anything negative to say.

It's racist and xenophobic for one simple reason: what is it that makes it wrong for the jobs to move? If it's cheeper to manufacture something in Alabama instead of California or Detroit instead of Manhattan, is it all right for the manufacturer to move operations? How about from US to Canada? Canada to Mexico? to Europe? to Eastern Europe? to Taiwan? If it’s all right for different regions of the US to compete then it’s all right for different countries to compete.

It's also driven by simple market reality. People continually whine that good "Olden days" service just isn't available anymore and that all the main street mom and pop stores are closing. All while going to the Walmart superstore to save a buck fifty.

The market determines the acceptable price and quality of a product. If someone can make the same cheaper, better for the same price, or acceptable inferior but much cheaper, they will win the lions share of the market.

If you want to keep jobs, get an education and move above the crappy minimum wage assembly jobs many of these products provide.

As far as taxing the hell out of imports. Well, there’s little documents like the WTO and Free Trade Agreement that’s been signed. Also, I think it’s the US that makes the most noise when others use such practices (Japan and US auto imports for example). Also, such practices are never really cut and dry because other countries will retaliate on your exports.

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD

There is huge pressure on us to lower prices though. Our parts cost for a basic gun is well beyond what the retail price is from overseas. Its going to be up to you to decide if your willing to pay more for products made by people dedicated to your sport.

This brings to mind the events of the 70's when the Japanese started importing cheap cars. The cry went out to "buy American" but mostly no one cared. Now the imports have a larger share of the market than the home growns.
AGD

Tom,
I agree with some of your statements however I think there is a big difference between the past and current auto industry and where the paintball industry is at now.

I believe that paintball is at the cusp of something I call "product overload." To me this means that we, the industry, have broken a price barrier and can provide a high quality for a very low price. That being said I don’t think we are there just yet. Take a look at the mountain bike industry over the last few years. It had seemed as if more and more US bike companies were have to build higher quality (read here exotic materials), better designed (aerospace engineers), and match a fairly low price for a bike using less exotic materials in an attempt to "one-up" the bike builder next door.

I have a feeling that the concept of "product overload" is on the horizon. Take a look at Smart parts. It seems that within the next year they will have an entire lineup of markers for just about any player that wants to spend 399+. Does the world or better yet paintball really need 3-4 versions of a shocker/impulse? Probably not however, you know as well as anyone in paintball that flashy anno, speedy triggers, and hip terms like “LP”, and the ability to “upgrade” to an additional model sells ‘guns to the largest target area in paintball. I have a predication within the next 2 years we will see an Angel LED from WDP priced around $600. Why? Because paintballers are going to get the same kind of product at a 3~400 price and it will become increasingly more difficult for WDP to sell just the IR3 at $1200.

[Jason dons flame suit]
Back to the auto industry, I think that those of us here in the states have a big problem forgiving US auto makers for the cars they built in the 80’s and even in the early 90’s. When I was in high school, 93-97, my father had told me that the only import car I could drive was a VW bug. So my whole junior year we completed a “pan-up” restoration on a ’71 VW. Later in life about a year before I graduated from college my mom’s very well and babied 93 Taurus was having major problems. Mom and Dad started doing their research and ended up with a brand new accord. I was shocked!! During my college years I was driving a 91 Eclipse GSX and I usually had great things to say about import cars and I guess it rubbed off. That or I left to many import car mags at their house when I came to visit. My dad being so anti-Japanese that even today I find it strange when he says that the only good cars the US can build are either trucks or his corvette.

I think that AGD is some very different than its Japanese built counterparts. First AGD builds some dam fine guns, very high quality and reliable. Second, I also think AGD makes great upgrades that actually perform and additional function in addition to the stock piece that it replaced, however I would love to see some changes in the product line. I really don’t want to post what I would like to see come from AGD because I don’t find it appropriate for “some guy” on the ‘net to tell the president what he/she should/should not do with there people/resources.

To some up,
As long as AGD continues to make a high quality product that also has an additionally high intrinsic value then I will ALWAYS be a loyal customer.


[p.s. I hope somone reads this post:( ]

[AGD]

Slarty,

Your argument is good IF the world was a level playing field. In reality it's not. Japan is a great example of a country that takes full advantage of its exports to us while NOT allowing us to go compete in their country.

Manufacturers in other countries dont have to worry about pesky things like product liablity insurance because its too expensive to go there and sue those guys. They also don't have to worry about envronmental concerns either, remember the Dow chemical plant that blew up in India?

You purchased those beautiful spanish tiles from Mexico because they are cheap. What they don't tell you on the back of the box is that they burn tires to fuel the furnaces. The plants are way out in the boonies so tourists don't see the plumes of black smoke rising into the atmosphere. How do I know this is true? Because you hunt for fossils out in the boonies and ask the locals whats going on with the smoke. Where did you think those millions of used tires went every year?

So it may well be given the short view, that exporting jobs overseas is part of the natural selection process and complaining about it is pathetic. But by your same reasoning its much smarter to buy stollen stuff from your local fence because his prices beat Wall Mart's.


AGD

[Star_Base_CGI]

The founding fathers gave the US government the power to authorize copywrites. In order to preserve industry.

Even though I think that Automags are overpriced and produced in restrictive quannities, the fact that AGD owns the copywrite Automags helps them make money to create better products.

If someone in Hong Kong can measure out a Automag they can produce a good clone for $50 and pay people $1 an hour to make em all day for 10 hours a day.

So who has to pay for all this. Well me for one. I went to college and got a 2 year degree but now Im out of work cause companies arent hiring. My degree was a waste of money cause American companys are failing. Comanies are hiring %38 percent fewer college Graduates. What Parant int heir right mind would send their kids to college if they arent goign to get a decent job.


If these guns hit the markets in big quantities that would force people like Tom to goto Hong Kong to get his Guns made, if he hasnt already. Its a viscious cycle and if it keeps up it will destroy the US fiat economy.

[spantol]

I hesitate to mention this, as I don't want it to look like I'm picking on you, but it's worth noting that copyrights have nothing at all to do with Automag production. Copyrights protect written works. An Automag manual would be protected by a copyright. You're thinking of a patent--a government-issued, temporary monopoly on a piece of technology. Various components of the Automag are, I assume, covered by patents.

[spantol]

And while I'm at it, since you brought it up, in an overcrowded labor market, what parent in their right mind would *not* send their kids to college, assuming they were financially able to do so? If the college-educated are having problems finding work, I'd imagine it'd be even harder for the degreeless to find work.

[GT]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI


So who has to pay for all this. Well me for one. I went to college and got a 2 year degree but now Im out of work cause companies arent hiring.

well,
a 2 year degree or the associates isn't really worth what it used to. Whay you stopped at 2 years is your own buisness however I would encourage the younger members of the board at a minimum to seek either a BS or BA in a field that they enjoy. I am not sure if I agee with the US company hiring freeze. sure the economy has slowed a bit however if you have desirable skills finidng a job in any economy isnt w/o hope.

jb

[GT]

Originally posted by spantol
And while I'm at it, since you brought it up, in an overcrowded labor market, what parent in their right mind would *not* send their kids to college, assuming they were financially able to do so? If the college-educated are having problems finding work, I'd imagine it'd be even harder for the degreeless to find work.


Please please,
dont think that a college education is only for the well endowed. There are a great deal of loans availible and the payoff from BA/BS will well exceed the investment.

jb

[WARPED1]

Personally I don't care where my gun was made.Do I care about US jobs being gone,yes.But as far as shopping made in china is fine with me.;)

[Star_Base_CGI]

Copywrite, patent whatever. If they can make it in Hong Kong the Chinese Government doesnt care. They can ship em here for nothing and hire CHinese slaves to make them. If the cost isnt prohibitive they can manufacture 10 Emag clones for nutten. $100, $50 DIng. Yeah it doesnt hurt anythign to go Buy one.

Except when all the jobs are gone and they cant make anything in America. Not a bicycle, shaver, Pen, microchip. AS a good Catholic I get sad when I see something made in China, like a plastic Jesus or Virgin Mary. What value does Jesus or Mary have to the CHinese peopel. To them its just $20 an hour, molding and painting Plastic Jesuss. Are we compasionate Christians.

Look its as simple as this. If all the jobs goto China there will be no jobs here.

I can get a loan for $10,000 or $20,000 but what good is it if I dont have a job to pay it off. I have enough skills I could probably teach alot of computer clases. The teachers I had were so slow ten years ago it was pathetic. Now I build My Own PCs, Design websites, graphics. Even won some design contest but it does not matter because...

There are no jobs.

They said that the American people are hurting. If we pay an extra $15 dollars for gas it could bankrupt the whole country. So we are going to war, to get cheap gas, but it wont last for long.

A $1 increase in oil prices costs Americans Hundreds of Billions of dollars.

Sometings we pay to much for, like movies or music and some things we dont want to pay for. Like cheap goods from China. I wish things would change. I have to Agree with Tom on this one.

Even though I think hes a weenie.

[WARPED1]

We can't make anything here anyway.............

[Star_Base_CGI]

Baltimore is Good at Making Welfare Babies.

[spantol]

While the statement "If all of the jobs go to China, there will be none here" looks good on paper, it's a hell of a slippery slope (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ss.htm). One of the results of globalism has been the emigration of manufacturing jobs--it's capitalism in action, love it or hate it. Due note, though, that manufacturing jobs != all jobs. The services industry isn't doing too badly (the occasional accounting scandal not withstanding), and I can assure you that there are jobs out there. My firm's constantly hiring qualified candidates. Dust off your resume, proofread it, drop the jingoism, and start looking harder.

I won't even touch the war = oil stuff. It's too late.




Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
Copywrite, patent whatever. If they can make it in Hong Kong the Chinese Government doesnt care. They can ship em here for nothing and hire CHinese slaves to make them. If the cost isnt prohibitive they can manufacture 10 Emag clones for nutten. $100, $50 DIng. Yeah it doesnt hurt anythign to go Buy one.

Except when all the jobs are gone and they cant make anything in America. Not a bicycle, shaver, Pen, microchip. AS a good Catholic I get sad when I see something made in China, like a plastic Jesus or Virgin Mary. What value does Jesus or Mary have to the CHinese peopel. To them its just $20 an hour, molding and painting Plastic Jesuss. Are we compasionate Christians.

Look its as simple as this. If all the jobs goto China there will be no jobs here.

I can get a loan for $10,000 or $20,000 but what good is it if I dont have a job to pay it off. I have enough skills I could probably teach alot of computer clases. The teachers I had were so slow ten years ago it was pathetic. Now I build My Own PCs, Design websites, graphics. Even won some design contest but it does not matter because...

There are no jobs.

They said that the American people are hurting. If we pay an extra $15 dollars for gas it could bankrupt the whole country. So we are going to war, to get cheap gas, but it wont last for long.

A $1 increase in oil prices costs Americans Hundreds of Billions of dollars.

Sometings we pay to much for, like movies or music and some things we dont want to pay for. Like cheap goods from China. I wish things would change. I have to Agree with Tom on this one.

Even though I think hes a weenie.

[Star_Base_CGI]

The services industry isn't doing too badly

Would you like fries with that?

And than of course people will still be buying Cadilac SUVs.

[spantol]

Well, when the world's entire services and production capacity moves to China, no one here will be able to afford those $50k+ SUVs. That'll be one less thing for you to worry about.

[Webmaster]

Yeah - Im not sure if the auto-industry is a good example. Auto imports began to take hold in the late 70s because detriot couldnt build a decent car if they had god himself came down and worked the line. If you compared quality and reliability, the new imports just totally won out over domestic cars.

And you see that today. *I* will be buying an accord in the next 6 months. Why? Because they are great, reliable cars. My mechanic laments my purchase because in his words "they dont break". I am sure I will have to upkeep my honda and it may need repairs down the line - but Honda and Toyota are the top cars in america year after year BECAUSE thier products are good! They arent even really cheap. I could definately get a US made sedan cheaper than an accord - but I am buying it for its reliability and customer satisfaction levels.

So really - the automarket, in my opinion, is an example of the best product winning. Now you may cite disadvantages in export/import trade with countries - but thats not the consumers fault. Use some of our economic muscle if we arent being treated fairly. Of course - the US car makers seem focused on making things bigger and faster - which isnt as prudent in asian and european markets - as the gas is much higher there and the streets dont lend well to H2s lumbering down them.

OK - couple more things - we need to distinguish between KNOCK OFF and FARMING OUT. The warlord markers are not KNOCKOFSS - its WGP FARMING OUT work. In the example of the Cololnial in the UK, thats an example of AGDs mag being knocked off. I am not in support of knock offs - and most time knock offs are of low quality and people can distinguish between the two.

BUT - WGP is farming out the work to be able to compete. That means I am sure some machiests out of work in the US. BUT if all of buds competitors are pumping out knock offs of equal quality - he HAS to do something to cut cost. Why? SImple - the consumer doesnt care. The whole "buy american" thing just doesnt work. People are too busy and apathetic to look for the union label or what ever. You people (er paintballers in general) piss and moan CONSTANTLY at the high cost of this sport - I dont see you spending an extra $100 on a cocker just because its an original WGP. OH sure - SOME people will - but will it be enough to make a differnce?

One last thought and thats someone who commented on "greed". I encourage you if they re-run it sometime to watch John Stossels report on "greed". While true greed isnt a good thing - the strive to be bigger and more successful is GOOD over all. For example - what if sam walton would have been happy just with one 5 and 10 store? huh? Then you wouldnt have the multibillion dollar corporation that employs and insuress millions of unskilled workers. Walmart strong arms companies to get you the best and cheapest prices - I have seen them being attributed to helping REDUCE inflation because of this. They give millinos a year to charities. Sure they have killed some small towns and "mom and pop shops" -but I think the overall benefits out wieght this. If you have a large company you hire MORE people, create more busienss from your business (contruction to build offices, the guy who fills the snack machine, air ports for business travel). Well i could go on - but I hope you just stop and consider this.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Send in the clones. Theres two clone markers and one of them is definitely a spyder knock off. One way clones get made is when factory work is outsources to CHina. They can stop production and make a clone marker on a dead factory line or old equipment.

I myself have 2 Ford Escorts. I bought a FOrd in 91. After being screwed by bad Chevys and Pontiacs, in the family. I thought I would try Ford. My Ford Got wreked and my mom bought an Escort. In 1993 I bought a used Escort GT. I could not have made a better choice. Ten years later we are driving the Same Escorts. Its not a great car but its a good car. I have 100,000 miles on each car. They are reliable, cheap to repair and built in the US. My Escort has been a good friend while I been unemployed.

My Tips to Tom, being an unemployed graduate with a two year degree is.

1.) Aquire CAD, CAM and CNC equipment so any new markers or prototypes can be made by machine.

2.) Look to people in the field who can design or refine Mags on a CAD and drafting system. Than manufacture the designs on said equipment automatically.

3.) Reduce the parts in a marker and make them interchangable, backwards and upwards compatable.

4.) Offer manufactured parts in a DIY kit or Blister pack. So that experience users can assemble it yourself. That way you have the CNCed parts and a Cad drawing or booklet for assembley.

One thing America is known for is our creativity and problem sovling ability. Theres nothing we cant do but if we accept the idea that we cant do anything, than we will continute to create problems for society like unemployment or drug problems.

Take a problem and turn it into a soulution. If it costs $200 to assemble an E Mag offering it in a parts kit offers the buyer a chance to assemble it on their own. Perhaps this person would enjoy the opportunity to get aquanted with their Gun, marker whatever.

[spantol]

An AGD-sanctioned, significantly lower-cost do-it-yourself kit would lead to too many hastily, improperly constructed mags and effectively begin to erode one of AGD's principle competitive advantages--its sterling reputation for offering the highest quality possible. A non-trivial amount of people would by the kits assuming they could handle it, botch it, and blame the manufacturer. I don't think it'd be worth the risk.

[shartley]

Originally posted by spantol
An AGD-sanctioned, significantly lower-cost do-it-yourself kit would lead to too many hastily, improperly constructed mags and effectively begin to erode one of AGD's principle competitive advantages--its sterling reputation for offering the highest quality possible. A non-trivial amount of people would by the kits assuming they could handle it, botch it, and blame the manufacturer. I don't think it'd be worth the risk.
I agree. We are not talking about Spyders here (although they are not as bad as some would like folks to believe).

[magsRus]

well that crap is about to hit the fan now

[logamus]

webmaster, just fyi you might have a look at the window sticker when you buy. nowadays many many hondas and toyotas are made right here.


question, why has nobody noticed they ripped off our AO Hex design?!?!?! forget the cockers, we need to get that hex off that site at once!!!!!!!!!

[Webmaster]

Log -yes I am aware many are made here now - but Honda is still run in Japan and is a foriegn country. But it helps prove my point - I dont care who makes it - I want a quality car that will last...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
Send in the clones. Theres two clone markers and one of them is definitely a spyder knock off.

You say clone, the manufacturer says liscenced product.

The comments about Fords, while being a testament to your luck, I know a family who will never buy a Ford again, doesn't really provide much foder for the discussion.

Besides the fact that Ford didn’t earn the moniquer of Fix Or Repair Daily and Found On Road Dead for no reason. :D

But it’s ironic you should use Ford products as a testament to buy American. The entire Escort line uses many Mazda components and the Ford Probe is just a rebodied Mazda 626.

GM had GEO selling Suzuki's, and owns SAAB cars. Chrysler is owned by the Germans (Daimler-Chrysler) of Mercedes fame.

Besides the fact (already pointed out) that Hondas and Toyotas (virtually all that are sold here and the US) are manufactured in the US and Canada.



My Tips to Tom, being an unemployed graduate with a two year degree is.


No.1 isn’t a particularily bright idea. The economics of purchasing such equipment for such miniscule production runs would not make sense. There’s also no particular reason to invest in millions of dollars in equipment that many other companies already posses and are ready willing and capable of producing components to even higher standards than AGD requires.
No.2 I think AGD already has. Tom’s postings of CAD drawings shows they are already at the leading edge of that technology. Production limits and delays seem to be entirely down to AGD’s determination to do all work inhouse. So whenever a new product comes out, customer service/procurement of older equipment suffers and delivery of new products is delayed by day to day activities at the company.
No.3, is also already addressed I would believe. While it’s difficult to fathom the real differences between the markers it really just boils down to On/Off pin length, and body rail. The RT also seems to have had a different grip frame height. As far a compatibility, I think you have two opposing objectives. You can’t reduce components AND have everything backwards compatible.
I REALLY Like no.4. With the new bodies available, it should be possible to buy something other than a complete gun to canibalise or to get soaked with the prices of individual parts. But, then again they ARE already doing this for PTP. Honestly I’d think AGD’s best way to get a lot of cash is to liscence production of Automags to qualified manufacturers. (No matter where they might be).

[logamus]

as far as "buying american" as so many of my union brothers and sisters demand i always say read the label. dodge rams are built in mexico, is that "american made" while toyota tundras are built i belive in california. this is obviously way off topic but sometimes you have to reevaluate what "buying american" really means.

[Star_Base_CGI]

I am in no way any kind of Auto Mag specialist or expert. I dont own an Automag.


Honestly I’d think AGD’s best way to get a lot of cash is to liscence production of Automags to qualified manufacturers. (No matter where they might be).

This is what people seem to be hinting about is the worst thing possible, would give people the oppotunity to make or manufacture automag parts. Which they could sell privetely on the open market in Hong Kong and ship here in containers..

Before id do that. Id get a bank loan or invest for $100,000 or more and see what kind of CNC or production equipment could be had to knock out bodys. Looking at the body I hate the feed system and wonder if it could be simpler. The body seems to be the monkey wrench in the works. Its just an over glorified tube. Other soloutions could be to make some kind of rigs to up production of the body tubes. If production of Body tubes went to lets say 200 or 300 a month that would be pretty cool. And AGD could sell 100 of them in unassembled DIY packs or 50 in DIY packs and 50 in plain aluminum unfinished carts. People could send the unfinisheds for plating or anodizing.

In the end Id have to say Automags are the Cadilacs of Paintball. Supply and demand are part of the equation. If supply of Automags or Automag clones succeeded demand the price would drop.

In the Early 80s Lee Iococha went to Chrysler and saved a dying car company. (I would in no way say AGD is dying.) It took an investment fo time and money. Things had to change. CHrysler made VIpers and ither exciting products and began to compete. COmpetetion is the stuff of American buisinesses. Either companies will compete and make better products for less money or they will fail.

[Star_Base_CGI]

CNC Frame link thread.

Check out this CNC body Detroit made. Now thats what Im talking about.


there number is (270)542- 7912 there prices
raw 215
polsihed 225
ano one color 250
fade or splash 275
that is with shipping also if you have any ? call or email them and they can take of you and they are cocker thread

Detroits CNC thread link. (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70367)

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=671623


no i dont work with any of them i own my own shop all cnc stuff mills rams wiers i had my out way befor they all did i dont have to draw in cad the stuff i work on is real high tec it took about 1 to 2 hour for me to prograM it and run it i did not post mine faster becouse we were in mardi gras open and i have been real hard at work on other thing they other milling will be on my web at blingblingproducts.com when you go thereit will be under blingbling products should have them up on the site soon we are taking orders know if you have any ? just email and we will try to help you thank im glad you like it

Throw it in a box with foam and a plastic windows and sell it as a Build it yourself Kit.

Ill even design the box for you!

[Miscue]

I'm a bit disturbed by that Taiwanese site's "Flash MP package specially designed for children."