ANGEL v.s. impulse ?

[darkANGEL]

Has anybody ever had these 2 markers and which one do you think has better performance? A top line impulse(Adrenaline, etc.)I have a darkANGEL, but have the money for another impulse or another angel.

[TAG]

I'm gonna move this one so you will get more opinions.

[azzkikr]

ANGEL ANGEL ANGEL, no impulse out there can compare to an angel. it doesnt matter who made it, what color, what trigger, bolt, lpr, what board, nothing. the impulse just cannot compare to an angel. get another angel if you can afford it. later AZZKIKR

[cris8762]

hmm...ok surreeeee.....

have you EVER shot a nicely tuned impulse with freak, LPR, vision, 90degree frame or iframe, etc.?

i thought not.....

it depends on the type of impulse and they type of angel ur trying to compare

[FalconGuy016]

Im going to have to disagree... a nice impulse is better than an angel :p get a nasty impulse!

[EsPo]

compare an AI to an LCD.. the AI would woop up on the lcd... no offense TAG

[SyntaxError]

It still suprises me that people don't realize that there is no universal better marker, it is the player's choice.

Shoot both, decide.

[azzkikr]

there is no category that an impulse is superior to an angel, asides from maybe weight.

and yes I have shot a nicely tuned impulse, and was not surpriced at all, smart parts did exactly what they set out to do, an affordable electro.

AZZKIKR

[minimag187]

They both are good.... I just dont like the fact that impulses are so freakin tall.

[Ultimator]

Originally posted by azzkikr
there is no category that an impulse is superior to an angel, asides from maybe weight.Yeah and kick ... and softness on paint ... and anti-chop ability ... and air efficiency ... do I need to go on?

[azzkikr]

kick, I don't know about the imps but the angels that I've shot and owned have kicked at all.

if I'm not mistaken the imps work at aprox 180psi(again I'm sure that there are some mods for this), the 180psi behind the bolt is almost almost if not over twice the operating preasure of the angels ram which is supposed to be set between 85 and 90 psi, 95 for ir3.

antichop capabilities, cops2 took care of that, plus its not exposed nor is it sensitive to paint color nor texture.

and efficiency, I've seen tag shot about 17 pods and a halo out his 88 AIR and still have some air left. do the math thats a lot of freaking shots.

what else you got?

[EsPo]

ive got about 120psi going into my solenoid... (stock imp with lpr)

[Crazy]

if needed, you can also get eyes for lcds... its not like you have to buy an ir3 to get the eye feature.

[elpimpo]

im not personally a fan on the impy. there to tall. as for kick or anything like that you dont notice it during a game. but its what ever you prefer. ya so im not sure i accomplished anything with this but...

[Mr.Minus]

again.......why do you guys have soo much money??? lol
give some to me :)
or....since you already have an angel, just buy a phantom or something...learn to play a different game!
i say you should always have 1 good game for tournaments and all, and then the rst for just recball, sounds like that one angel is your tourny gun so just get some cool pump, if you really got a lot of money to spare get a carter buzzard!

[tommyd46290]

i personally have owned both. I sold my impulse about 3 months ago. My opinion is why should i buy a gun that works the same as an angel but has no lpr. Unless i spend extra money. And the trigger sucks. Unless i spend extra money. And it doesn't (normally) take rechargable batteries. Not to mention tallness, lack of a cool lcd display not to mention it doenst have the angel name which is alot of what you are paying for.

[AcemanPB]

I like Angels better, IMO they feel more solid and are a more proven marker. Angel's are sexier anyways... ;)

[elpimpo]

ya thats what i was trying to say

[mykroft]

azzkikr: A top line Impy is running less than 75psi behind the bolt. You don't find any of them that don't have a LPR mod.

Having shot a Strange, and owning an Angel, the Strange Impy is noticably superior. It's lighter, faster and Vision actually works reliably, unlike COPS.

You can't compare a base model Impy with an Angel, but the topline ones, they easily compare, and usually beat the Angel on everything.

It's the same with cockers. A stock cocker doesn't compare, but tell me than an EBlade Eclipse cocker doesn't compare to an Angel?

[magnj]

*Cough ::Bushy:: Cough*

[Mickster]

Never shot an angel so i cant really comment (however they are purty to look at:eek: ) Ive played with a few impulses thought all with differnet setups. Boy do those things rock especially when ya put a freak on them, vision eye and and i-frame. That 1mm trigger pull means that you can easily do 15bps with a cricket board only problem is you need a halo to keep up with their rate of fire(more money lol)

just my opinion have to try a nice ir3 though

Mike :D

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by magnj
*Cough ::Bushy:: Cough*


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


right

[mykroft]

Bushy=Nice rec ball gun.

Not competetive with either a custom Impy or an Angel, sorry dude.

[elpimpo]

mykroft cocker? wow that just kinda took away from everything u said

[-=Squid=-]

AZZKIKR

Lol, sound like somebody bought an angel, plays rec ball, and NEVER has shot an impy. I have shot and owned both, I prefer the imp because, yes, its faster and I can actually tell when I move the trigger. I am however getting an angel for a backup. lol...Quit pulling all that information out your AZZ before we KIKRZ yours with real facts.

[J-dogg1044]

Dude, I'd watch what I say. AZZKIKR is a tourney player, has been for years. I've known him for at least 3 years and he not only knows his sh*t, he's a great player. So watch what you say about players you don't know. Also, as far as the guns themselves go, every one of you people sticking with your Impys admit to having multipleperformance mods on your gun. How many Angels have performance mods on them? Not many. Why? Because out of the box, 100% stock, an Angel is hard to surpass in any catagory. Most mods you see on angels are only cosmetic for a reason, because that's all you can really do to improve it. But hey, to each his own. Me, I'd rather shoot an Angel than an Impy.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by J-dogg1044
Dude, I'd watch what I say. AZZKIKR is a tourney player, has been for years. I've known him for at least 3 years and he not only knows his sh*t, he's a great player. So watch what you say about players you don't know. Also, as far as the guns themselves go, every one of you people sticking with your Impys admit to having multipleperformance mods on your gun. How many Angels have performance mods on them? Not many. Why? Because out of the box, 100% stock, an Angel is hard to surpass in any catagory. Most mods you see on angels are only cosmetic for a reason, because that's all you can really do to improve it. But hey, to each his own. Me, I'd rather shoot an Angel than an Impy.

I dont really care how long he has been playing, I have too been playing for years, and know MY stuff, and have had a long tourney run. As I said before Quit pulling all that information out your AZZ before we KIKRZ yours with real facts.

[-§on-]

¿ I still dont get the point of threads like this, all it this is is one person's opinion vs. someone else? There is really no resolution.:confused:

[Ultimator]

if I'm not mistaken the imps work at aprox 180psi(again I'm sure that there are some mods for this), the 180psi behind the bolt is almost almost if not over twice the operating preasure of the angels ram which is supposed to be set between 85 and 90 psi, 95 for ir3. That 180 psi is the SOLENOID pressure. The actual bolt pressure is a fraction of that. In fact, it's not uncommon for impy's with good internals to run at 60 PSI bolt pressure. I've seen Impy's shoot 1800 shots easy off of a 68/45.


antichop capabilities, cops2 took care of that, plus its not exposed nor is it sensitive to paint color nor texture. Who said vision is exposed? There's a little piece of tape with wiring under that cover, and that's what the cover is there for, TO PROTECT IT. I have never seen any problems with the vision protector being hit and harming the system. The Cricket vision has no problem with paint texture, I have no idea where you got that from. Show me the facts. It does, however, have SOME problems seeing some black shelled paints. I used black and red Severe Cyclone last weekend and it shot fine with my vision. The WAS vision board will be out soon anyway, and it sees black paint fine. I believe Jim Drew said a replacement eye would be in the ballpark of $20 (although I can't really take his word for it.) Last time I checked, the COPS system was incredibly buggy, although I admittedly haven't read too much about it.


and efficiency, I've seen tag shot about 17 pods and a halo out his 88 AIR and still have some air left. do the math thats a lot of freaking shots. I did the math. That's 2550 shots, with air left in the tank. If I knew anything about physics, I'd say that was impossible, but I don't. Show me the video. You said you've seen it.


what else you gotOh yeah, Vision Rat Impy's cost $750, and this comes with great internals, and milling. A little more than half the cost of what that nice iR3 with COPS2.

[Ultimator]

Also, as far as the guns themselves go, every one of you people sticking with your Impys admit to having multipleperformance mods on your gun.All of the parts I have mentioned came stock on my gun. In fact I haven't added on anything so far.


¿ I still dont get the point of threads like this, all it this is is one person's opinion vs. someone else? There is really no resolution.You're absolutely right.

[Mr. T!]

Ultimator-

How can the soleniod pressure be different than the bolt pressure? The only way oyou can get an Imps soleniod to run at a diff pressure than the gun, you have to have an LPR (opps.....smart parts forgot one...)
if an impies solenoid runs at 160 psi (which is far from stock pressures), then the bolt will have the same pressure, unless of course you found a way to pack another reg somewhere in the soleniod.

Your right, it is not fair to compare a stock imp to an angel. Compare a nice imp (strange) to an ir3, and you have competition. However, Imps, out of the box need soo many upgrades to shoot anywhere near an angel. I can understand that though, because they are a 400 dollar gun.

[cris8762]

Mr T, you've obvisouly never seen a Impulse lately....almost ALL the hihend imps nowhave LPRs on them

i know mine does

the impulse can EASILY be better than a stock impulse

i'll dscribe later i have to go to class now!

[tobz]

my only problem with this forum is a couple of minor things, first off, as far as people challenging other people...


yes, his gun probably shot through 17 pods with air left in the tank, if you setup almost any gun with "high efficiency" in mind, you can make your tank go a long way, I know my cocker can.

The other problem is that someone knocked a stock cocker earlier... I don't like that. He should save his money on his cocker upgrades, just get a stock cocker, and e-blade or race it. I hope he knows that a stock cocker can be raced no prob and doesn't need any of those "foolish upgrades". I rip on my wgp hinge, (100% stock 2k3 cocker) and I get 10-12bps. There is no need to upgrade a cocker other than minor performance and cosmetic reasons.

Other than that, these opinions are very nice. I have shotten a pre-release special edition impulse back in 2000, nice guns, but... sloppy triggers, very tall, internals broke too much, bolt pin broke too much, but I did take 2nd place in a tourney.

I also shot a nice angel back in 2000, seemed very solidly built, liked the feel of the trigger, was a lot less sloppy. However, for the impulse being roughly 1/3 of the price, I could not afford the angel at the time.

Another thing, is that I love mechanical markers. It's amazing what you can do with a mechanical marker nowadays and get it to compete with those high end electros. Rock on everyone.

tobz

p.s. stock cockers own

[Ultimator]

Originally posted by Mr. T!
How can the soleniod pressure be different than the bolt pressure? The only way oyou can get an Imps soleniod to run at a diff pressure than the gun, you have to have an LPR (opps.....smart parts forgot one...)
if an impies solenoid runs at 160 psi (which is far from stock pressures), then the bolt will have the same pressure, unless of course you found a way to pack another reg somewhere in the soleniod.I mentioned in the post that the upgrades I was talking about were on my gun.

[TAG]

Originally posted by -§on-
¿ I still dont get the point of threads like this, all it this is is one person's opinion vs. someone else? There is really no resolution.:confused:

Whew !
Glad I moved this out of the Angel Forum now....LOL

Just a thought......what if EVERY paintball gun only cost 100$ ? What would most people buy ? Maybe the guns mentioned here? I will even include the bushy (I like them BTW)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by TheAngelGuy.com
Whew !
Glad I moved this out of the Angel Forum now....LOL

I bet you are!!!!! :( :D


hey tobz, you said this: my only problem with this forum is a couple of minor things, first off, as far as people challenging other people... Now what disturbs me about this comment is you never actually point to a reason why that is a problem for you in THIS forum and not every other forum in the whole world wide web! I mean have you realy found a Forum where that did NOT happen? And I suspect you have found many forums where it was far worse. But I am certain you have some logic for dissing this forum over the others?

[tobz]

didn't mean "forum" please insert "thread" for forum, thanks for noticing :)

The only problem I had was people challenging other people with no basis or knowledge. They just need to make sure they have the facts before they say, "ANGEL's don't this... or IMPY's don't that..." That's all.

T.J.

[cphilip]

OK cool! It's all good! I was just kinda ribbin ya on that one. I understand now.

[tommyd46290]

A stock bushy is supurior in my mind to a stock imp for the fact the it has an lpr. beyond that the impulse is over the bushmaster.

[Verbal138]

An impulse is a econo electro, period. Sure you can get a tuned/aftermarket one, but you can take a kid out of the white trash but you can't take the white trash out of the kid. Bottom line, it's still an econo marker, just a slightly better one. You want to talk aftermarket markers? There are a half a dozen tuners out there who make aftermarket angels and all of them are far superior to ANY tuned impulse.

Ultimator, the 'kick' you complain about allows for you to hit the sweet spot and far exceed a rate of fire that can be achieved with just your fingers, but since you own an impulse, you wouldn't know anything about a non ****e trigger.

[tommyd46290]

it's really a matter of preference here but i have personally seen MANY impulses shoot better than highly tuned angels. I personally love angels and will stick with them but impulse's do have thir advantage in places.

And you stepped WAY out of line by saying something like that to ultimator because anyone that even owns one pretty much HAS to know what they are doing.

[Verbal138]

Out of line? How? He tried to claim the kick was a bad thing, when in fact that is what allows the angel to smoke guns like the impulse. Impulses might have a bit more range but the added range only is going to matter to a rec baller, and if all you want is range you should be getting a cocker or even a shocker - not the econo SP electro.

Angels have a better rate of fire, they are more reliable, they run off of lower pressure and are just an all around more solid gun. Anyone who's ever picked up an impulse and then an angel can tell you that the angel just feels more 'solid'. I'm not saying impulses are crap, because they're not, I was thinking about picking one up for a back-up gun. What I am saying is that a impulse is a econo-mid range electro and there is no way they can compete with an angel, intimidator or shocker for that matter.

[speedyejl]

Ughhh does anybody relize that an Angel and Impulse are almost functionaly identical? The solinoid on an Angel is ontop of the hammer assembly vs the Impulse where it is under thus the solinoid tray. The Angel has a smaller hammer also, which means jack. Also for the $~400 price difference between the two you can make a stock Imp well on pair with a 2k2.

O yea an Impulse is also identical to a Bushmaster.

[Verbal138]

If they were functionally identical they would perform almost identical, which we know is not the case. The structural framework might be similiar but since they're electros a lot of it is in the programming, which obviously is not identical in any sense.

As far as a tuned impulse, even the most tuned impulse still has a sloppier feel and isn't anywhere near as fast. This is like comparing a Ferrari to a Porsche Boxter, the fair comparison would be the 911 turbo, just like the shocker would be the gun to compare against the angel, intimidator and EMag.

[tommyd46290]

It;s still just a battle of wits and people's opinion no one is right here no one is wrong. The impulse is NOT the same as a bushmaster. well it is except for the lpr.

[speedyejl]

Heck, Verbal what are you talking about? They do perform almost identical, please don't compare a stock imp to an angel first of all. Compare an Imp or Bushmaster after $400 of work. First of all Impulses are now faster than Angels out of the box 20bps or 24bps I can't remember. The only thing the programing contorls is how many ms the solinoid will direct air to the hammer assembly.

The Impulse has alot available as far as frames go also to make it feel however you want. You can get werm frames (Angel 2K2 frames) or OTB frames (IR3 frames), thats just some of the many frames out there for Impulses. So the feel can be identical to an Angel.

Ok wait a second, an Angel can tell you the temperature. Obviosuly Angels are a better marker.

[MrFixitx]

Come on guys lets have this conversation grow up a little instead of trash talking and going the X gun is just better it is!!!

If its better support your opinion with some reasons.

I also agree that comparing a stock impulse to a IR3 or aftermarket IR3 is a bit unfair, why not compare it say AI, Nasy, Rat, and Strange impulses.

Personally I like impulses better, why?

1. Cost anywhere from $500-1000 less than an angel.
2. Lower pressure operation, valve pressure runs from 135-220 PSI Last I aksed Angel valves ran at around 300ish(if I'm wrong someone let me know)
3. High ROF I can hit a ROF equal to any angel(vision impulse is capped at 20bps in semi same as the IR3 though some impulse boards now allow 24 bps) with my impulse its all on the trigger pull its not the gun lets you get a high rof(with the exception of turbo modes etc..)
4. I prefer the vision eye over COPS, the dark angels I have shot with COPS you had a noticeable ROF drop with cops on vs with it off(and no I didnt chop any paint with it off). With my impulse with vision on I dont see a noticeable change in ROF occasionally it stops for a second to let the hopper catch up but with the COPS it seemed to slow down even if your hopper was keeping up fine.

5. I prefer the impulse stock reg, I get great constincy with my impulse and I the angels I have used with the same paint and air system tend to be less consistent.

The bad things about the impulse
Not as easyto maintain as an Angel(pulling out the bolt and lubbing it vs just putting some drops of luv juice in).
FSDO for me this really isnt an issue one shot before I start the game isnt that big of a deal imo.

What I think the Angel has over the impulse

1. Its not as tall
2. its got an LCD display that is cool, but isnt worth the extra $$ why do I need to know the tempature and have it give me text messages??
3. Its got an integrated recharable battery nice feature but again you pay an extra $100 but with the car charger there is no worry of having a dead battery for long.(but carrying a spare 9v works just as well).

Dont get me wrong Angels are nice I've shot a fair amount of Dark Angels, some Lasoya Angels, and Rockys angel all of them are nice but I'm not blown away by their performance vs my impulse especially not for the price differnce.

Mr.Fixitx

[minimag187]

Well it seems with COPS2 you cant really tell a difference, but with cops1 you defenitely can.. Mine is in for its COPS2 upgrade, I cant stand COPS1... As for both guns I like both, ive shot both and I like the angel better, impulses are not my style. I like the trigger of the angel and the solid feel and easy maintenence =)

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by speedyejl
please don't compare a stock imp to an angel first of all. Compare an Imp or Bushmaster after $400 of work.

First of all Impulses are now faster than Angels out of the box 20bps or 24bps I can't remember. The only thing the programing contorls is how many ms the solinoid will direct air to the hammer assembly.

The Impulse has alot available as far as frames go also to make it feel however you want. You can get werm frames (Angel 2K2 frames) or OTB frames (IR3 frames), thats just some of the many frames out there for Impulses. So the feel can be identical to an Angel.

Ok wait a second, an Angel can tell you the temperature. Obviosuly Angels are a better marker.

1) The only way to test the quality of the actual gun is in stock form. Anyone can mod the hell out of a lot of guns and get it to shoot acceptable, that's not the point. It's like the kid with $400+ mods into his spyder, it might shoot decent, but it's still a spyder, period.

2) Sorry, bud, but impulses are still advertised as 13 balls a second with confidence IF you get the vision. Besides that, the IR3 and the 2k3 are also capable of firing 20+. Even if the stock impulse could shoot that fast, which it can't, the impulse doesn't have any 'kick' to assist the shooter in getting above 10-12 balls a second, because NOBODY can actually pull a trigger 20times.

3) It's not just that frame that gives it it's feel, it's the entire cheapness of the gun that makes it feel flimsy. It's an econo marker, that is why it feels like one. The trigger is mushy and is hard to adjust - even the so called 'tuned' impulses don't shorten the trigger much, they'll chop balls like crazy unless you get the vision, and it runs on higher pressure. I'm not sitting here claiming the angel is the best gun in the world hands down, but it is in the upper tier. The upper tier that does NOT include an impulse.

[mykroft]

Verbal.

You've never shot a Strange Impulse. It shows. It's stupid fast and has a stock trigger that blows away an Angel. Just because a stock impulse is a cheap gun, doesn't mean a custom Impy is. A Strange Impulse and a Stock Impulse share only a board and a basic body extrusion, everything else is different.

todz: Big performance difference between a Raced/Ebladed stock cocker and one with internals and pneumatics upgraded to good parts. there's more to the performance equation on a cocker than just an electro frame.

elpimpo: Shoot a Eblade, it'll easily match an Angel. Frankly so will a Blade-Frame Evolution.

Note that virtually every aftermarket Impulse has an LPR, so you can toss that comparison, ditto the crappy trigger, nobody ships aftermarket Impulses with the SP trigger.

And,a s to internal design, the angel and an Impulse with an LPR are functionally identical, so is a bushmaster and a EM1.

[MrFixitx]

Verbal,
I'm not sure where you get your info, but impulse do have kick with the right internals its not much but they certianly have enough kick to get trigger bounce and hit well above 13bps. Stock cricketboard impulse(non vision) have a cap of 13bps unless you get the board uncapped. Cricket Vision impulses have a cap of 20.

As for them feeling cheap I guess thats just an opinion they feel very solid to me, the only guns that have really felt cheap to me are stuff like stingrays and some of the trigger frames on spyders.

Mr.Fixitx

[tommyd46290]

yeah i might have to argue the side of the imps now just because verbal is another teenage duche bag. Any way. Impulse CAN shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger the vision boards are capped a 19.6 balls per second or soemthing like that. no sorry you can't pull the trigger of your angel that fast either there are few people that can.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx

I also agree that comparing a stock impulse to a IR3 or aftermarket IR3 is a bit unfair, why not compare it say AI, Nasy, Rat, and Strange impulses.

Personally I like impulses better, why?

1. Cost anywhere from $500-1000 less than an angel.
2. Lower pressure operation, valve pressure runs from 135-220 PSI Last I aksed Angel valves ran at around 300ish(if I'm wrong someone let me know)
3. High ROF I can hit a ROF equal to any angel(vision impulse is capped at 20bps in semi same as the IR3 though some impulse boards now allow 24 bps) with my impulse its all on the trigger pull its not the gun lets you get a high rof(with the exception of turbo modes etc..)
4. I prefer the vision eye over COPS, the dark angels I have shot with COPS you had a noticeable ROF drop with cops on vs with it off(and no I didnt chop any paint with it off). With my impulse with vision on I dont see a noticeable change in ROF occasionally it stops for a second to let the hopper catch up but with the COPS it seemed to slow down even if your hopper was keeping up fine.

5. I prefer the impulse stock reg, I get great constincy with my impulse and I the angels I have used with the same paint and air system tend to be less consistent.

Mr.Fixitx

I agree, comparing a stock impulse to an aftermarket IR3 is unfair, that's why guns have to be compared in stock form.

1. The 2K3 angel retails for $850, and you can find a 2k2 for 750-799, so really it's only 200 hundrend dollars if you get vision, the IR3 costs about 1200, but there are impulses that cost 1000, so the real difference is only about $200.

2. The angel runs between 85-95psi, so the angel runs at a much lower pressure.

3. Would you please link me something that says the impulse can reach 20bps? Perhaps a video clip, or a marker review? In every ad I've ever seen for an impulse vision they simply say "13bps with confidence". That aside, it's pretty much impossible to pull a trigger faster than 10-13 times a second unassisted, and even that takes a FAST finger. The reason the angel is able to achieve a HROF in semi-mod, is because the kick actually assists in pulling the trigger and makes you fire faster.

4. I have never run into any such problem when firing a gund with COPS, never. Not sure what the problem was with that one, but the only time it ever slowed me down was when the hopper was almost empty and I was shooting at a funny angle.

5. Sorry, but your observations aren't accurate. Go to PBSTAR.com and read both the angel and the impulse reviews, the angel's deviation was 4.8 fps on one string and 6.2 on the second, the impulse was 6.3 and 7.2fps on the first and second string respectively.

[speedyejl]

Actually stock Impulses now come set at 20bps/24bps no vision. Older Impulses are 13.7bps nonvision and 20/24bps vision. The only Angels which can fire 20bps are aftermarket, or ones which have been hacked (on a note you can get a older nonvision Impulse reprogramed for $30). The Impulse does have kick, mine does and my internals are pretty damn light around 1100grams. Besides getting another shot from kick is called trigger bounce, its illegal if you play at NPPL/PSP tournaments they now have people to check for trigger bounce. Pulling a trigger 20 times a second is hard, but its feasible. I can get my Impulse to beep pretty easily (when mine beeps its hitting 13.7bps).

O and bud (these are the things which really were ignorant, or stupid I'm not sure in your case), you said Angels can easily shoot 20bps thats only aftermarket Angels like Dark, Impact, etc, If you are going to include aftermarket guns like that I think its only fair to start comparing Angels to an AI Impulse. Explain how a stock Impulse feels flimsy? Its made of aluminum the same stuff that Angels are made of! Also Angels w.o a pds chop as much as an Impulse will if you are firing at the same speed with both. Another thing you said is preassure, Angels run at a higher preassure than Impulses out of the box. Besides the fact that saying a gun is lower preassure than another means nothing, preassure between two guns has no bearing at all.

Last thing if Impulses aren't in the upper tier, how come they are the gun of choice for Strange, AA, AA2, Nasty, GZ Black and Silver?

Abe Lincon said" Better to let people think you are an idiot, than open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[MrFixitx]

Verbal138,

Heres your link about impulse ROF

http://www.kamworld.net/paintball/ImpulseFAQ_General.html#G10

2. Angles do no run at 95 PSI their bolt may run at 95 psi but thats not their operating pressure their valve pressure is much higher than that.

3. I dont care about the reviews I'm talking personal experience with consistency. Shooting diablo blaze through a freak with a preset tank I have gotten +2/-2 consistency at the worst on my impulse and its not uncommon to get repeat strings. Shooting an angle with the freak and preset tank I tended to see +4/-4 with occasionally better results.

4. maybe you got lucky on cops2 or got cops2 but the few Dark IR3's I shot with it on had big slow down in their ROF.

And as for the impulse trigger with an adjustable trigger thats a whopping $30 you can get the trigger pull to under 1mm after about 5minutes.

Mr.Fixitx

[speedyejl]

PB star was running Co2 on that Impulse Co2 is by nature more unstable that nitro. Also you obviously don't relize that the pocket chrono they were using is advertisved having a +/- %2 accuracy, which is +/- 6fps.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by mykroft
Verbal.

You've never shot a Strange Impulse. It shows. It's stupid fast and has a stock trigger that blows away an Angel. Just because a stock impulse is a cheap gun, doesn't mean a custom Impy is. A Strange Impulse and a Stock Impulse share only a board and a basic body extrusion, everything else is different.

Note that virtually every aftermarket Impulse has an LPR, so you can toss that comparison, ditto the crappy trigger, nobody ships aftermarket Impulses with the SP trigger.

And,a s to internal design, the angel and an Impulse with an LPR are functionally identical, so is a bushmaster and a EM1.

I've shot one, haven't played with one but I shot it a few times in the chrono/range area. It's faster than a stock impulse, but nowhere near as fast as a CLASS or many other tuned angels. If you want to talk about tuned impulses, than it's only fair to compare it to a tuned angel. Even a stock LCD is just as fast - faster with kick - as a strange impulse if you adjust your trigger right.

As far as the LPR, even the tuned impulses shoot at a higher pressure than a tuned angel. So, again, if you want to compare a tuned 'x' than you also have to take the tuned 'z'. A Stock/Tuned angel will shoot at a lower pressure than a stock/tuned impulse, respectively.

[speedyejl]

Why don't you tell us why LP is better, ehh?

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx
Verbal,
I'm not sure where you get your info, but impulse do have kick with the right internals its not much but they certianly have enough kick to get trigger bounce and hit well above 13bps. Stock cricketboard impulse(non vision) have a cap of 13bps unless you get the board uncapped. Cricket Vision impulses have a cap of 20.

Mr.Fixitx

With the right internals? We're talking stock here, and even if you had the right internals it's not going to be anywhere near that of an angel. Look in this very thread, several impulse owners were bragging about the LACK of kick. That's supposed to be a good thing? Anytime I've ever shot an impulse the kick consisted of nothing that could ever really achieve any kind of sustainble sweet spot, like it can very easily be done with the angel.

[MrFixitx]

Verbal why dont you find some documentation showing the valve pressure of an Angel instead of just saying its lower pressure?? Back up your claim, I find that after a quick search on other forum sites that the valve pressure of an angel is 350ish PSI much higher than an impulse valve pressure.

2. ROF is based on the USER NOT THE GUN!!! please realise 2 guns both with a less than 1mm trigger pull both with the ablity of having massive trigger bounce will both be able to hit a high ROF!

Mr.Fixitx

[MrFixitx]

Verbal,
Yes I'm talking high ROF with stock internals or custom internals!! And while an impulse doesnt have much kick you dont need alot for trigger bounce if your trigger is set short enough.

Mr.Fixitx

[speedyejl]

A stock Impulse as an Aluminum Hammer, Steel Bolt Pin, Aluminum Bolt, and a steel rod. Which is around 1500gms, mine is at around 1100gms and I still have kick. Its miunute but its noticble non the less. Little kick makes a gun in a persons hands more accurate because the balls will land the same place given everything else is consistent and in good matches. Personally I rather have a marker with little kick and a poor trigger than than the other way around. Kick is bad, you can more than compensate for the lack of trigger bounce with getting a good trigger. Why do you think Matrixes are so hot? They don't have any mechanical parts so they have almost no kick.

[MrFixitx]

ummm speedyejl the matrix has moving parts like a bolt... It has 13 interal o-rings that get wear from movement of the spool valve. None the less the matrix has very very little kick as well.

Mr.Fixitx

[minimag187]

YOu must have not looked very good, 2k3 LCD's and Ir3s are set to 20BPS from the factory.....:rolleyes:

[speedyejl]

Its not mechanical it pnuematic. Mechanical is like a hammer hitting a valve open, pneumatic is like in the matrix air moving the bolt back and forth. The bolt does hit the ball but that causes very, very little kick since the ball is floating freely and isn't stuck on the gun.

[MrFixitx]

speedyejl,
the ball floats freely???? wtf are you talking about it sits in the breach unti the bolt hits it just like other paintball markers.

Mr.Fixitx

[speedyejl]

It depends where they are sold, WDP complies to ASTM standards (not laws) which keeps thier guns to 13bps in certain countries. The IR3 is also advertised with 26 firing modes.

[speedyejl]

By the ball floats freely I meant that its not bolted in the breech with screws or something so that when the bolt hits it gives an enormus amount of resistance. The bolt dosen't have a hard time at all pushing the ball into the barrel, then the air does the rest which creates a small amount of back preassure but its not noticable. When you use a Matrix its deciving because normally your mind register a shot when you feel the hammer get hit and thus kick. With a Matrix you here the solniod click twice and you think you are firing faster than you are. Its a weird feeling.

[MrFixitx]

ummm.......ok I havent recently bolted my paintball in the breach with screws but if you say so.........

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by speedyejl

The Impulse does have kick, mine does and my internals are pretty damn light around 1100grams.

Pulling a trigger 20 times a second is hard, but its feasible. I can get my Impulse to beep pretty easily (when mine beeps its hitting 13.7bps).

O and bud (these are the things which really were ignorant, or stupid I'm not sure in your case), you said Angels can easily shoot 20bps thats only aftermarket Angels like Dark, Impact, etc,

Explain how a stock Impulse feels flimsy? Its made of aluminum the same stuff that Angels are made of!

Also Angels w.o a pds chop as much as an Impulse will if you are firing at the same speed with both.

Another thing you said is preassure, Angels run at a higher preassure than Impulses out of the box. Besides the fact that saying a gun is lower preassure than another means nothing, preassure between two guns has no bearing at all.

Last thing if Impulses aren't in the upper tier, how come they are the gun of choice for Strange, AA, AA2, Nasty, GZ Black and Silver?



1. Bull. Any stock impulse, and everyother impulse I've ever shot, had very minimal to no kick.

2. If you think pulling a trigger 20 times a second is feasible without any assistance from the gun, than you are the idiot are accusing me of.

3. Sorry, but check the stats from WDP. An IR3 can be set for 20bps, and the LCD 2k3 isn't capped, so I would assume it woud be the same.

4. What??? Many cheap guns are made of aluminum and they still feel cheap. Go read any review on the angel and I can guarantee you with in the first paragraph they will comment on how good the gun feels, how 'solid' it is or how it feels like a million bucks etc...

5. Don't think so. Last year I was filling in on a team and two of the guys had impulses. They were breaking paint all day. I couldn't tell you if they were chopping or the higher bolt pressure was breaking the balls in the barrell - as the paint was unusually brittle.

6. Angels run at a lower bolt pressure, and this does help quite a bit when playing with brittle paint. I've heard cocker guys forever argue that it flatens their trajectory, but I have a hard time believing that.

7. Well, from what I've heard the AA's are switching back largely to the new shocker, and I'm sure some of the other teams will to, but if you want to compare teams.... let's see the best team in professional paintball is Dynasty, hands down, and look what they shoot.

[tommyd46290]

eqipment and sponsors dont win games for a team. It takes skill. You give the dynasty guys and gun that doesnt chop and shoots decent they will do the same.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx
Verbal why dont you find some documentation showing the valve pressure of an Angel instead of just saying its lower pressure?? Back up your claim, I find that after a quick search on other forum sites that the valve pressure of an angel is 350ish PSI much higher than an impulse valve pressure.

2. ROF is based on the USER NOT THE GUN!!! please realise 2 guns both with a less than 1mm trigger pull both with the ablity of having massive trigger bounce will both be able to hit a high ROF!

Mr.Fixitx

I'm not saying the valve pressure is 85-95, I'm saying the bolt pressure is. If you still want me to find a link, let me know. The low bolt pressure is what makes the angel real friendly with brittle paint.

2. If the trigger is less than 1mm, you are actually going to reduce the rate of fire, as you need a little room to really hit a prolonged sweet spot. The reason the angel is faster is because it has a much larger sweet spot and can be hit very easily. Even than impulse website that you linked said that they can only can get significant bounce on accident.

[MrFixitx]

ok buy a clue here, pro teams play with what their sponsors allow them to!! IF your sponsored by WDP you really dont have a choice but to shoot an Angel, if your sponsored by WGP your going to shoot a cocker!!

Impulse have kick it doesnt matter if its a little or alot if you have even a slight amout of kick it lets you ahcive trigger bounce if you set your trigger properly. What does it really mater if it has a lot of kick vs an Angel or a little kick.

3. 20bps without trigger bounce I agree is almost if not totally impossible

4. Guess what on reviews of spyders cockers and impulse people have all said "if feels well built" big deal.

5. as for this well at 85psi bolt pressure on an angel thats still enough to break brittle paint clean in half. So what if you friends hoppers couldnt keep up or they were having barrel breaks, I was at a tourney in november where one guy with an angel could only get about 1 shot out of 4 to make it out of his barrel intact. Doesnt mean that angels suck just that he was having problems with paint.

7. as for AA's guess what they are sponsored by smart parts they can shoot what smart parts allows them to or tells them to, for all you know smart parts may want to promote the 2k3 shocker and be forcing them to shoot it.

[MrFixitx]

Verbal read the faq again it says usually trigger bounce is an accident it doesnt say "it only happens by accident" or any such thing. I've have seen numerous impulse set to have a sweet spot where they can pull 16+ bps by holding the trigger. This includes impulses with stock internals and impulses such as the RAT impulse which has a lighter bolt.

And 95 psi will still slice brittle paint in half.

Mr.Fixitx

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by speedyejl
A stock Impulse as an Aluminum Hammer, Steel Bolt Pin, Aluminum Bolt, and a steel rod. Which is around 1500gms, mine is at around 1100gms and I still have kick. Its miunute but its noticble non the less. Little kick makes a gun in a persons hands more accurate because the balls will land the same place given everything else is consistent and in good matches.

Ahh.... less weight means less mass to dissipate recoil, which equals a greater kick.

As far as kick making a gun less accurate, only if you're a newb and aren't use to it. A .45 Colt kicks quite a bit, but is very accurate with someone who knows how to shoot it. So sorry, but your claim is completely bull.

[MrFixitx]

Verbal,
Umm less wieght means less recoil. Recoil is based on the fact that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Its part of physics perhaps you've heard of it.

So if you have something weigh 1500grains hit the valve and bounce back it will have more energy than something that weights 1100 grains and because less inital energy hit the valve so there is less energy to push back thus less recoil.

As for a colt 45 being accurate, try holding one and pulling 10 shots per second and see how tight your target grouping is then.

Mr.Fixitx

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx


ok buy a clue here, pro teams play with what their sponsors allow them to!! IF your sponsored by WDP you really dont have a choice but to shoot an Angel, if your sponsored by WGP your going to shoot a cocker!!

Impulse have kick it doesnt matter if its a little or alot if you have even a slight amout of kick it lets you ahcive trigger bounce if you set your trigger properly. What does it really mater if it has a lot of kick vs an Angel or a little kick.

4. Guess what on reviews of spyders cockers and impulse people have all said "if feels well built" big deal.

5. as for this well at 85psi bolt pressure on an angel thats still enough to break brittle paint clean in half. So what if you friends hoppers couldnt keep up or they were having barrel breaks, I was at a tourney in november where one guy with an angel could only get about 1 shot out of 4 to make it out of his barrel intact. Doesnt mean that angels suck just that he was having problems with paint.

7. as for AA's guess what they are sponsored by smart parts they can shoot what smart parts allows them to or tells them to, for all you know smart parts may want to promote the 2k3 shocker and be forcing them to shoot it.

1. I think you need to buy a clue here. WHy don't you go back and read what was posted. I was not the one to bring up what pro teams shoot that would be speedyej, I was simply countering his argument. Why don't you work on your comprehension skills.

2. The reason the kick matters is because barely any kick creates a smaller sweet spot that is a lot harder to hit. Angels are much easier to fire fast BECAUSE of the larger sweet spot.

3. Sorry, but that's not the case. Since I alread mentioned PBstar, go read both reviews and see how many times they mention how solid the impulse feels.... good luck looking because you're not going to find it. Something that you will find under impressions is this: "Moving onto the trigger, we can right away tell you that we weren’t too impressed. The trigger is worlds ahead of any non electro gun, but it isn't as nice as some of the other electros"

Funny how a non-bias 3rd party acknoweldges the fact that impulses triggers are crap, but those on here won't.

4. Please, 85 psi - which is easily lowered with an LPR kit - is extremely low bolt pressure for any non-cocker, and that's why the angel is known for not breaking a lot of paint. Again, read PBStars review on the Angel, one of their reviewers took it to the world cup and broke only one ball the entire weekend even though he was using very thin shelled paint - and then even the one break was when he was
snap shooting at an angle that prevented the balls from feeding.

5. Again, read and comprehend, the only reason I mentioned those teams was because they were first mentioned by speedyej in an attempt to validate his argument.

[MrFixitx]

Lets see

A. I never said stock impulse triggers were good and they were reviewing the stock impulse. STock impulse triggers are very long but spending $30 on a new trigger fixes that whole problem.

B. I never refernced a specific review of the impulse.

c. 90psi will chop a ball people can play whole weekends on a spyder running at 800 psi and not break a ball. Just because someone doesnt break a ball all weekend doesnt mean much. It could mean they had good paint and a loader that was keeping up with their ROF.

D. 85 psi is not that low for a cocker. If you want to get a low cocking pressure free flows run 30psi and under, or you can just buy their hammer and springs kit and get just about any cocker to under 50 psi with it.

Mr.Fixitx

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx
Verbal,
Umm less wieght means less recoil. Recoil is based on the fact that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Its part of physics perhaps you've heard of it.

So if you have something weigh 1500grains hit the valve and bounce back it will have more energy than something that weights 1100 grains and because less inital energy hit the valve so there is less energy to push back thus less recoil.

As for a colt 45 being accurate, try holding one and pulling 10 shots per second and see how tight your target grouping is then.

Mr.Fixitx

Right.... that's why I can shoot a very light berreta shotgun and have it get jumpy as hell, or I can shoot an older weighted down browning and have it be steady as hell. Sorry, but as long as the force stays the same - IE discharging the marker or gun - the heavier the marker/gun is the less kick you will have. It's the same principal behind pushing something - we'll say a grocery cart. When the grocery cart is empty it is easy to push. Load it with a few sandbags and use the same amount of energey used to pused the empty cart and the cart will either not move or move at a much slower rate. Same thing with recoil.

As for the colt, your analogy is fundamentally flawed. The kick of a 45 is easily 5+ times that of an angel, so it would be inaccurate to try and shoot at the same ROF. However, I know plenty of people who can get a very tight grouping at 5-6 shots a second with a 45. Again it comes down to knowing the marker/gun.

[tommyd46290]

Originally posted by Verbal138
Ahh.... less weight means less mass to dissipate recoil, which equals a greater kick.

idiot. you need to take some damn physics classes. Less weight slamming back and fourth=less recoil newton's third law at work. If you can prove Sir Issaic Newton wrong then then I will shut up but untill then you are an idiot and no absolutly nothing about what you are speaking of.

[MrFixitx]

Verbal I give up, your beyond help if I could I would give you a clue but I dont think you would know what it was.

with heavier internals its not like a grocier carts that you cant push as far, it still moves the same distance as lighter internals, kick is from the weight of the internals hiting the valve and returning to the rest posistion. Try and be a blocker for a 120lb guy running at you full speed vs a 300 lb guy running at you at the same speed. Your going to feel that 300lbd hitting you alot more. Same thing with kick, you feel the heavier internals hitting the valve more than you do with lighter internals.

Thats it for this thread I give up, buy a clue, find a clue find someone to knock some sense into you, talk to a physic proffessor do something!!!

P.S. Tommyd its nice to see someone has some common sense around here!

[tommyd46290]

your above example makes sense. But if i hit you in the face with a 12 ounce hammer and a 20 pound sledge which do you think would have greater effect?

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx
Lets see

A. I never said stock impulse triggers were good and they were reviewing the stock impulse. STock impulse triggers are very long but spending $30 on a new trigger fixes that whole problem.

B. I never refernced a specific review of the impulse.

c. 90psi will chop a ball people can play whole weekends on a spyder running at 800 psi and not break a ball. Just because someone doesnt break a ball all weekend doesnt mean much. It could mean they had good paint and a loader that was keeping up with their ROF.

D. 85 psi is not that low for a cocker. If you want to get a low cocking pressure free flows run 30psi and under, or you can just buy their hammer and springs kit and get just about any cocker to under 50 psi with it.

Mr.Fixitx

A. Again, the true test of a marker is it's stock form. You can always mod something, but something that is better in stock form (in this case the angel)is only going to be better when it is moded. Other than that, I just thought it was funny that they stated how crappy the trigger was under impressions.

B. I know you didn't, that's because one doesn't exist, or many don't exist. The whole point of my argument was that every review I have ever read on the angel has mentioned - often times MANY times - how good and 'solid' the angel feels.

C. 85-95 PSI is lower than most other markers out there, and is not prone to breaking paint. To quote PBSTAR "It is pretty clear that the Angel rarely breaks paint."

D. Funny, because I said NON-COCKER!!!! That's your horrid comprehension skills acting up again.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by MrFixitx
Same thing with kick, you feel the heavier internals hitting the valve more than you do with lighter internals.


Well, that would be a combination of me not reading what he reduced the weight of and your horrible comprehension skills again. What I said was:

>"Sorry, but as long as the force stays the same.."

By reducing the weight of the moving internals you would be reducing the force, I just didn't pay attention to what he reduced the weight of. I guess your horrid comprehension skills rubbed off on me.

[tobz]

mykroft - my name is tobz, not todz

You backed up my point earlier by stating a point, and then backing it up with zero information whatsoever. Please tell me how an upgraded cocker is far superior to a non upgraded one. Not too mention, how a raced/Ebladed cocker with upgrades is different than a raced/Ebladed cocker without upgrades. I will be looking forward to your post. Thanks.

tobz

[speedyejl]

Verbal, lets say you had a 12 gauge that fired in 3 round bursts going at 6rps. Now shoot at a point target the size of a skeet. I am willing to bet you can't hit that target 3 times in a row. There kick makes a gun less acurate.

Anyhow just incase anyone is reading this for information let me clear some things up. Just assume that everything verbal says is wrong, he has made so many false statements that you will be doing yourself a favor as apose to trying to figure out what is real and not.

Statements which are wrong, or just ignorant/stupid:

Less internal weight in an Impulse means more kick

Its fair to compare the max potential of an Impulse and Angle when using a stock Impulse for the Impulse side

You based the ability of two guns on tests with different variables being used, and no control

You have said that the bolt preassure of an Angel is friendly with brittle paint, when its around 80psi which is easy enough to cut even the hardest shell paint straight in half

You like to qutoe the Angel feels more solid, how can two things made of the same material feel more solid than the other? Let me give you a block of aluminum from the WDP plant and one from SP, tell me which feels better. None the less I thought we were discusing performance not asthetics.

You made a generalization about trigger settings as to reflect all people. Trigger settings are a very, very personal thing, its preference.

You said the Angel has a larger sweet spot, both Impulses and Angels hit micro swithces which are almost identical...

You claim that its possible to have lack of kick on an Impulse, when there is valve which is getting hit by something heavy called a hammer

YOU SAID THAT IMPULSES HAVE MORE RANGE

You said that NOBODY can get past 20bps, check around AO there is a video of Butters hitting 25bps

[mykroft]

Verbal:

I've shot a CLASS, it offers nothing but milling and a trigger over a stock, ditto the Dark IR3 and the Cobra. Aftermarket Angels are merely different milling jobs and a different trigger. Aftermarket Impulses are significantly different markers from stock.

I've played with a Strange Impy, It's significantly faster than any Angel I've ever run across in real world terms, feels nearly as fast as a Matrix.

tobz:

Higher flow internals (Red or Tornado Valve)allow faster cyclic rate without shootdown. Smoother, larger diameter ram allows faster cycling at same bolt pressure (More pressure is exerted on the Ram piston if it is larger, smoother piston requires less pressure to move), lighter delrin bolt and trimmed backblock allow faster cyclic rate due to less moving mass, lighter matched LP springs allow lower ram pressure (or faster cyclic at same pressure). LP internals are significantly more efficient when coupled with a high-flow bolt, allowing more shots off one fill. The milling, apart from the inherently lighter weight and potential cyclic rate improvements of P-block and short-block cockers, is merely cosmetic.

While the stock parts on a cocker are far better than they used to be, there's a simple reason people upgrade the internals, bolt and pneumatics. The stock parts still aren't that great.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by speedyejl


Verbal, lets say you had a 12 gauge that fired in 3 round bursts going at 6rps. Now shoot at a point target the size of a skeet. I am willing to bet you can't hit that target 3 times in a row. There kick makes a gun less acurate.

Less internal weight in an Impulse means more kick

Its fair to compare the max potential of an Impulse and Angle when using a stock Impulse for the Impulse side

You based the ability of two guns on tests with different variables being used, and no control

You have said that the bolt preassure of an Angel is friendly with brittle paint, when its around 80psi which is easy enough to cut even the hardest shell paint straight in half

You like to qutoe the Angel feels more solid, how can two things made of the same material feel more solid than the other?

You made a generalization about trigger settings as to reflect all people. Trigger settings are a very, very personal thing, its preference.

You said the Angel has a larger sweet spot, both Impulses and Angels hit micro swithces which are almost identical...

You claim that its possible to have lack of kick on an Impulse, when there is valve which is getting hit by something heavy called a hammer

YOU SAID THAT IMPULSES HAVE MORE RANGE

You said that NOBODY can get past 20bps, check around AO there is a video of Butters hitting 25bps

1. Your analogy is fundamentally flawed because a kick on a shotgun is easily 15x that of the kick on an angel, divide the bps of what an angel shoots - we'll just say 15 to make it easy for you - by 15 and you have one round per second, and just about anyone can shoot a skeet shooting at one round per second.

2. Are you not able to read and comprehend very well? That seems to be going around. I said more weight would create less kick, and it would if we weren't talking about the weight of the MOVING internals. I didn't really pay attention to the items that you said you reduced the weight of.

3. I never said anything about the max potential blah blah blah, that would be your horrible comprehension skills acting up again. I said the true measure of the guns quality is when it is compared in stock form. Anyone can mod the hell out of a piece of junk, but at heart it's still junk.

4. Everyone knows angels are friendly with brittle paint, I backed that up with a quote from a non-bias 3rd party reviewer, and it's also pretty common knowledge if you'd pull your head from your a$$ for a minute.

5. Really? Let's see what PBSTAR has to say about it:

a. Without a doubt, WDP’s Angel LCD is the most technically advanced gun in paintball to date. It could arguably be the most well designed one as well.
b. The Angel feels very refined and solid.
c. A solid, well balanced gun is important for performance.
d. The Angel's "feel" is one of the reasons why it is a fun gun to hold.
e. You pay $1000+ for an Angel these days, but once you have it in your hands it feels like a "million bucks". Ya, that sounds cheesy, but the gun just feels great and there isn't really a better way of describing it.

...and every review I've ever read said something very similiar.

6. Triggers are largel personal preference, but the quickness and length of the pull are not. The review I quoted was talking about the quality of the trigger set-up.

7. If you would have been paying attention, the sweet spot I'm talking about is based off of the kick from the gun, not the actual "sweet spot" that the manufacturers talk about when speaking of electronic triggers.

8. I said close to a lack of kick, not completely gone, but smart parts guns have less 'kick' than most guns I've ever shot - still haven't shot a matrix though.

9. Yes, they have better accuracy at longer ranges, only slightly but they do. Are you contending this?

10. I said 20+bps with no trigger bounce and with a true semi - with no turbo modes etc.. - is NOT feasable, which is what you said. For it to be feasable that would mean that someone could litterally move there finger back and forth say 1mm each way 20 times in ONE SECOND!!!! No, that's not humanily possible.

So, according to you, the angel is almost functionally identical, has almost an identical trigger etc... etc... Yet, we all know the angel has been around much longer so that would make the impulse a KNOCKOFF! I guess you think a 20 dollar 'rolex' purchased off some vendor in mexico is as good, or better, than a 5k rolex purchased at a jewelery store?

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by mykroft
Verbal:

I've shot a CLASS, it offers nothing but milling and a trigger over a stock, ditto the Dark IR3 and the Cobra. Aftermarket Angels are merely different milling jobs and a different trigger. Aftermarket Impulses are significantly different markers from stock.

I've played with a Strange Impy, It's significantly faster than any Angel I've ever run across in real world terms, feels nearly as fast as a Matrix.



The CLASS angel I shot had a MUCH tighter trigger, and was very easy to get cycling very fast due to the trigger bounce. A few years back Chris Lasoya let me borrow his gun for a tourny in castle rock, co, and believe me it was MUCH easier to hit the sweet spot on that gun than any angel I've ever shot. The strange impulse I cycled in the chrono area was nowhere near that fast, maybe without the sweet spot, but not overall.

[cris8762]

OMG!! ARGH!! verbal...please get help..go talk to an airsmith and tell him all the stuff ur saying right now.... he'd probably make you leave his shop..lol

omg i cant stop laughing about what you're trying to say right now!

shartley or AGD or someone elxe please come in and show him the light..please!!

[tommyd46290]

i am also suffering from severe stomach cramps due to intense laughing. Verbal the people here are not idiots. Most of them any way...you and a few others are exceptions. We know what we are talking about. you do not. So take a seat. Let the big boys discuss this. Im not sure you grasp the concept of your trigger pulls the trigger not the gun. Kick can help bounce not create it. The strange impulse is the fastest cycling impulse i have EVER shot. I loved it. i am still true the angel but since i dont like you i am arguing the side of the impulse.

[cris8762]

oh yeah let me make a few things clear real quick:

TRIGGER BOUNCE IS ILLEGAL IN THE NPPL!! NOONE CAN HAVE IT!!

THE NEW SHOCKER IS NOT RELEASED YET! LAST I HEARD THE PROTOTYPE WAS FULL OF BUGS THEY HAD TO WORK OUT!!!!

[Verbal138]

You know what you're talking about tommy? Funny....

>"Im not sure you grasp the concept of your trigger pulls the trigger not the gun. Kick can help bounce not create it."

Riiiiigggghhhhtttt, if a gun had NO kick at all, it would be close to impossible to get it to 'bounce' when the 'bouncing' is caused by the movement of the gun and how it reacts with your finger. That aside, even by your own admission 'kick can help bounce' and that is why I'm saying the angel is faster than the impulse. Because the extra kick makes the possibility of ripping off a bounce strand greater and makes it easier to do intentionally.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by cris8762
oh yeah let me make a few things clear real quick:

TRIGGER BOUNCE IS ILLEGAL IN THE NPPL!! NOONE CAN HAVE IT!!

THE NEW SHOCKER IS NOT RELEASED YET! LAST I HEARD THE PROTOTYPE WAS FULL OF BUGS THEY HAD TO WORK OUT!!!!

It might be, but it's not illegal at the MTS in colorado, and also I don't see how they can enforce that unless they are talking about the guys who set their guns up to 'bounce' by simply holding the trigger at a certain position, that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about when you are railing on the trigger and you leave your finger a little loose so that it will give you a few more BPS.

As far as the new shocker, so the AA's weren't using it in NO or LA?

[cris8762]

if they were then we would've known about it by now....maybe i missed it somewhere..can you provide some proof of this?

i still need proof of all ur claims (and STOP quoting that BS pbstar review, they were using a VERY stock older version impulse ON CO2 with NO mods done to it and none of the original problems that it had fixed liike in the new version)

[mykroft]

Frankly, if a wicked fast trigger is all you want, you don't want a Impy or an Angel. You want a Matrix with the 'Vark 45 frame and stock trigger. 20bps+ is possible rolling the trigger on that baby.

No bounce, no juggling, just rolling.

Verbal: First you say we can't comare 'stock guns', then you compare a retail Strange to LaSoya's personal marker. An Angel with a severe trigger job will beat a Strange Impy without a Trigger Job, maybe (My personal Fav is the 1x trigger on the Cobra LCD, wicked fast, but that was a heavily tweaked trigger and no longer available). But the retail CLASS just has a pretty much stock IR3 trigger job, no comparison to teh Strange's trigger.

[Verbal138]

No, I don't have any proof just someone who was in LA said that he saw some of their players shooting them. That's why I was asking you. I looked on warpig and they don't have any pics of the AA's yet. I checked the NO ones though, and it didn't look like they were using them there.

As far as the impulse and Co2, everything I've read from smart parts claims that Co2 will run almost identical to compressed air under good conditions, something that PBstar repeated in their review.

As far as proof of my claims, list the ones you would like me to back up and I'll see what I can find online to link to.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by mykroft
Frankly, if a wicked fast trigger is all you want, you don't want a Impy or an Angel. You want a Matrix with the 'Vark 45 frame and stock trigger. 20bps+ is possible rolling the trigger on that baby.

No bounce, no juggling, just rolling.

Verbal: First you say we can't comare 'stock guns', then you compare a retail Strange to LaSoya's personal marker. An Angel with a severe trigger job will beat a Strange Impy without a Trigger Job, maybe (My personal Fav is the 1x trigger on the Cobra LCD, wicked fast, but that was a heavily tweaked trigger and no longer available). But the retail CLASS just has a pretty much stock IR3 trigger job, no comparison to teh Strange's trigger.

Aren't they making those rolling triggers for other guns as well? And is that even NPPL legal?

As far as the rest, yes, I still am saying that a stock to stock comparison is the best judge of the quality of any particular marker. You brought up a moded/tuned marker, so did I. Perhaps the CLASS gun I shot had additional trigger work, but it was much nicer than a stock angel.

[speedyejl]

I wasn't making an analogy I was making an example of

PBstar is obviously godlike to you, they are the best third party reviewing source, even though they use flawed testing methods. Also PBstar is giving their opinion that its fair on paint, not real data. Here is real data
PMI Evil:...................40psi crack point
PMI Premium:............55psi crack point
RPS Marbs:...............50psi crack point
DraXxuS inferno:.......45psi crack point
DraXxuS hellfire:........40psi crack point
DraXxuS Dusk:...........45psi crack point
32° Team Colors:.......55psi crack point

(Bolts used Shocktech Supfly, and Evolution, results were same on both)

80psi is more than enough to crack paint in half, no bounces, skips, just a messy paint spill.

Accuracy at longer ranges, well first you are changing what you said but then you obvioulsy don't grasp some simple things. Two identical paintballs shot out of the same barrel with the same FPS, according to you the one shot from the Impulse will be more acurate at long ranges. Haha, no, both will be almost identical in consistency (Angel regs and Max Flows are both pretty damn good shot to shot)also so don't bring shot to shot into play.



Originally posted by Verbal138

NOBODY can actually pull a trigger 20times.


You didn't mention on an Impulse which has no kick, with trigger bounce etc. Just stated it plain and simple

Saying an Angel feels more solid is just dumb, two peices of metal. Angel LCD do have many more features than Impulses, that has no bearing on performance though. An AI and an Angel feel pretty damn similar.

At heart its still a peice of junk? Well you are implying that paintball markers have something in the way of a soul, Im not even going to go there. Thats like saying someone who grew up in poverty and was dirty, will still be dirty at heart even if they become rich, urbane, clean etc.

When you talk about Rolexes and Folexes I'm willing to bet the $20 one can still tell the time as acurately as the $5,000 one, it just dosen't come with braging rights. Also they probably are asthetically similar.

They also seriously do not have lack of kick compared to an Angel. A stock Impulse has much more kick than a stock Angel any type. I have worked on both many times, if you don't belive me go find try them and come back with raw data.

Using logic one should assume that everything you said in regard to Angels vs Impulses is false.

[mykroft]

Verbal.

Chris LaSoya's personal Angel isn't a suitable comparison to an Impulse I can buy through any Smart Parts dealer. A CLASS is but LaSoya doesn't shoot a stock CLASS any more than Mike Carthy shoots a stock Strange.

Rolling a trigger is related to geometry, and the Stock Matrix trigger doesn't fit other guns, even if it is based off the Angel Trigger. Rolling doesn't involve trigger bounce at all, just a bit of tuning and a sensitive microswitch. Pretty much any trigger on a Matrix can be rolled, some Angel trigegrs can, but not to the same effect. It's a variant on juggling rather than 'bounce'.

[Verbal138]

>"80psi is more than enough to crack paint in half, no bounces, skips, just a messy paint spill."

It might be, but 80psi is less than most other markers out there - including the impulse which is what 100-110 stock?

The reason I reference PBstar was because I ran a quick search and that was one of the first things that came up. They are a completely unbias source, and they simply stated what is 'common knowledge'. Are you seriously saying that angels aren't known for being really good when it comes to not breaking balls?

Accuracy at range... I simply said range - as is common knowledge no marker really has greater range over another if fired at the same velocity so I thought it would be understood. As to accuracy at range, and yes I can compare shot to shot; go to PBstar, the impulse grouping was tighter at 40yds, not by an enormous amount, but it was, and this is with an impulse that had greater velocity inconsistency. A lot of it could be in the barrel, but they do test the angel with 2 other dye barrels.

>"You didn't mention on an Impulse which has no kick, with trigger bounce etc. Just stated it plain and simple"

Yes, nobody can pull a trigger 20 times a second, nobody. Now if they are being assisted by the gun than THEY aren't the ones pulling it that fast.

>"Saying an Angel feels more solid is just dumb, two peices of metal."

How do you figure? Ever driven a rice burner? How about a porsche? Do you think the porsche feels more solid than a honda accord? And they're made out of roughly the same materials. And here's what another unbias 3rd party had to say about how the angel feels:

PBTimes
The first thing I noticed about the Angel is it's solid feel. It feels very solid. Nothing rattles or shakes and it does not feel mechanical. In comparison to the new Shocker S/F, the Shocker feels more mechanical. It is a slight difference and shouldn't change your mind. But for an extra 400 dollars it should feel more solid.

While we're on unbias 3rd parties here's another one that I found relevant:
P8ntballer.com
It’s not fair to compare this gun (impulse) to the more refined and feature-laden Angel, but it’s perfectly fair to compare it to the Bushmaster, Defiant, and others of that ilk. (p8ntballer.com also ranked the Ir3 the #1 marker on the market)

>"At heart its still a peice of junk? Well you are implying that paintball markers have something in the way of a soul, Im not even going to go there."

No, that is not what I'm implying. I am saying that you can bolt on extras to any econo marker to make it shoot better, but it's STILL an econo marker, period. It still has the same sloppy trigger, etc... etc... (minus the strange which had a pretty decent non-sloppy trigger)

>"When you talk about Rolexes and Folexes I'm willing to bet the $20 one can still tell the time as acurately as the $5,000 one, it just dosen't come with braging rights. Also they probably are asthetically similar."

Actually no they won't. A rolex doesn't use a battery and will continue telling time for the rest of your life, and a knockoff will last maybe a year or two. A rolex also won't turn your wrist green, and won't fall apart. As far as looks being similiar... maybe at first, but 1 month after wearing your knockoff, the paint will fade and will expose the cheap non-gold metal. I guess you really do think a knockoff is as good as the original... that speaks volumes to your intelligence.

>"They also seriously do not have lack of kick compared to an Angel. A stock Impulse has much more kick than a stock Angel any type."

Funny because many impulse owners in this very thread have stated that the kick is minimal and that it kicks less than the angel. Perhaps the impulses I've shot weren't completely stock, but I hardly think that several people in this thread - who own impulses - would brag that the impulse has less of a kick unless it did.


>"Using logic one should assume that everything you said in regard to Angels vs Impulses is false."

Logic? Are you kidding me? You have commited so many formal and informal fallacies it boggles the mind - besides that logically it would be to infer, NOT assume, and since you are making an inductive argument it would be 'most likely to be false' which would be a conclusion with absolutely no premises. You know nothing of logic, so please don't try and make your self sound intelligent by referencing something you are completely ignorant of. You continually commit the straw-man fallacy as well as the ad hominem abusive, so please drop the inference that 'logic' has anything to do with your argument.

[Verbal138]

Originally posted by mykroft
Verbal.

Chris LaSoya's personal Angel isn't a suitable comparison to an Impulse I can buy through any Smart Parts dealer. A CLASS is but LaSoya doesn't shoot a stock CLASS any more than Mike Carthy shoots a stock Strange.



See, and that's the real problem when comparing moded/tuned guns. The only reason I brought up his personal gun was to demonstrate that yes, the angel can be tuned to perform at a higher level. I still think that stock vs stock is the best comparison.

[minimag187]

Well the reason there arent very many aftermarket angels is because nothing is realy out there to make them better, but I do agree impulses are about just as easy to shoot fast once you get a new trigger and maybe a trigger job, angels usually need a job when you get them too.. I still do like my angel more though.

[magman007]

First off Verbal, you need to shut the hell up and listen.


1. One of your arguments was kick. Well lets see here, Triggerbouncing is illegal, and if you rely on it to make your rof higher, than i am truely sorry for you, and for your oponets who you play un fairly against.

2. you claim that kick doesnt effect accuracy, you even used a colt 45 as an example. YOU ARE WRONG! any extra movement of the marker translates into your barrel moving, what happens when the barrel moves? the ball fired goes where the barrel was pointed(more or less)

3. You even claimed that some markers have more range than others. If you were a self respected paintballer, you would know your facts. No marker shoots further than another, unless it is equpiied with a backspin inducing adjustment.

4. If kick was a good thing, then why arent marker internals made out of lead? If you really want kick, then go for it. most people will agree, that the marker with the less kick, is the easiest to shoot straight. Also, most tourny players do not have the time nor the need to worry about compensating for kick in a game. I know i dont, that is why i shot a sfl e-mag with level 10.

5. Trigger bounce is not always created by kick, it can be from the trigger bouncing off the micro switch, and on to the front of your finger and back again.

6. Your comparing opinions. It doesnt matter really. IF people are more comefortable with an impulse than an angel, let them be. if you perform better ith one said marker than another, how does the other one make it better for you?

7. You call it an econo electro marker. It was origionally designed to be that yes, but, It will not always be an econo marker now will it? Apparently it isnt, as they are comming better stock etc, and the custom versions, are ofering more and more.

8. compare an AI impulse to an IMpact ir3 or a mamba. The 2 top custom angels out there. Now look, the ai is better, im sorry, but it is. The impact and mamba utilize some fancy milling and some upgrades, but there is nothing that you can really do to the ir3 to make it perform better, the IMpulse you can. Stock to stock you say? well, its all about how well a person can play with the said instrument.

). Give up, you have made many people angry and irate, and you are bringing a disturbance to AO. Cool your jets, and adsmit your wrong. Your just like this one kid who would swear cockers shot farther.... Please, take this into consideration, and let this die. Believe what you want, it is your opinion, and some one elses is different, agree to dissagree..



also... Id like to say, impulses are alot like timmies as well... Ehem, have you noticed what chris lasoya is shoting now?

[Cliffio]

alright, well ive been avoiding this thread like the plague, but magman, ive gotta say a few things:)


Originally posted by magman007

8. compare an AI impulse to an IMpact ir3 or a mamba. The 2 top custom angels out there. Now look, the ai is better, im sorry, but it is. The impact and mamba utilize some fancy milling and some upgrades, but there is nothing that you can really do to the ir3 to make it perform better, the IMpulse you can. Stock to stock you say? well, its all about how well a person can play with the said instrument.

Ehem, have you noticed what chris lasoya is shoting now?


i see no proof in that argument

what makes the ai any better than a mamba?

and stock for stock is a good example, the impulses come with some crappy trigger, and rather inefficient, pick up an angel right out of the box, you have absolutly no problems, maybe a new bolt but the impulse bolt is nothing to brag about

the mamba and impact and dark dont perform much better than a stock ir3, and why is that? because when your the pinnacle of paintball, where else is there to go?

im sorry but having shot more than one impulse, and more than one type of angel, my 99 led shoots better than any impulse ive ever shot
and maybe thats my opinion, but this thread is wholy based off peoples opinions

and as far as pro people shooting guns, the tippmann team is proof enough that pros shoot what they are told to shoot

[speedyejl]

Tippmans arent that bad...

But to be fair, most pro teams shoot what they are told to at some level. Gun choices of am teams are a better judgement, but just because a gun team uses a certain gun dosen't mean alot.

Also, Verbal ad hominem abusive is striking someones credibilty by essintley calling them a name but providing no reasons, which is why the hominem is there.. The closest thing I said to that was , that calling an angel more solid than an Impulse was dumb. I didn't call anyone dumb, or say that we shouldn't listen to pbstar because they are dumb or any other of those reviewers.

Max potential blah, blah? Unless its fair to compare two guns when one of them has a gaping hole in the side, I think we are talking about how well each can perform.

Also an Angel in reality has much more mechanical movement than a Shocker, I'm not going to say more about PBtimes article.

Rolexes are completly a status symbol. If changing batteries is why a Rolex is better a $150 Citizen will also tell time forever. None the less most Folexes you buy on the street are made of stainless steel and brass. They don't have paint on them or any thing else, just cheap metals. My friend is an advid colector of Fomegas and Folexes if you will, and none of them have ever broken on him. They also have turned him green. Mabye if the watch was made of copper it would turn you green, but copper is more valuable than brass, and brass looks much better.They will tell time as accurately as a watch with solar cells or perpetual movement, they just need battery changes. You also can't say that you have a Rolex, or show it off. Thats enough for watches.

With the cars there is arounds a $100,000 price difference between the two, which is much larger (even as a ratio) than the price difference between a Stock Impulse and Angel. If you still insist though that its only fair to compare in Stock Forms, you do save around $500 from a Stock Impulse and a Stock Mark 2 Angel (choose whatever year you like). "Performance" Impulses like AIs, Nasties, Rats, etc are all made by Smart Parts so I think (it is opinion as is how you feel) that they should be included in the comparision vs. an Angel.

This thread has reached a point of ad nausem to me, just tired of it all.

www.butters.org
BTW, Mags use a Hall Efect sensor so they can't even get trigger bounce.

[tommyd46290]

this will be verbal when he gets older i am done posting in this useless thread it is a battle of people's opinions. The only wrong person here is verbal.

http://www.mmsracing.net/bigman/pictures/Funny/domesticEthug.jpg

[magman007]

Originally posted by speedyejl
www.butters.org
BTW, Mags use a Hall Efect sensor so they can't even get trigger bounce.




buzzzzz wrong!!!! the e-mag uses a hes sensor yes, but in hybrid, it is fully capable of trigger bouncing, and rt's with a good imput can bounce as well, it is illegal and no one should do it

[speedyejl]

e-mode ;)

[Verbal138]

magman007:

1. You tell me how it is even possible to tell if you are getting a few extra bps by allowing the kick to bounce the trigger as you're pulling it? It's IMPOSSIBLE, and thus can't be banned. The only thing that can be banned is when people set their trigger so that all they have to do is hold their trigger loosely at a certain position, that's not what I'm talking about.

2. I said kick doesn't make a marker/gun innacurate as long as someone is relatively used to it. I can guarantee you that I - and just about anyone who has every owned an angel - can shoot the marker just as accurate as a marker with less kick. The colt 45 was an extreme example to overemphasize the fact that even a gun with a LOT of kick - compared to an angel - can be very accurate even at high rates of fire.

3. No, actually I didn't. I mentioned 'range' once, and was speaking of accuracy at longer ranges, and I explained this if you didn't have the comprehension skills of a junior higher you would have known this.

4. I was never suggesting that a LOT of kick helps, but the small kick the angel provides is enough to assist your rate of fire and not enough to really effect accuracy. If you honestly think that tourny players shooting angels don't get a little boost from the kick, then you are truly clueless.

5. Yes, that is how bounce works, but what is driving the bounce is the motion of the gun. If you're just pulling the trigger with your finger, that's not bounce.

6. I'm not saying that someone can't prefer the impulse to the angel, because they can. Hell, someone could prefer a spyder to an angel and that's fine by me.... but the angel is a marker of MUCH higher quality and is a better marker, period. I wouldn't say the angel was better than a timmy, shocker or Emag, because they are all in the top tier of electros. Even P8ntballer.com says it is unfair to compare it to the angel, but that it is of the same "ilk" as the bushmaster etc...

7. Of course it will always be an econo marker as long as smart parts makes it that way. It's not as if they have substantially improved upon it, maybe got some of the bugs out, but the stock impulse is still very much an econo electro. The very existence of the shocker prooves this.

8. You didn't back anything up you said. You just spout off nonsense that was barely understandable. A tuned angel might not be superior to the base as much as the impulse tuned guns are superior to the stock impulses.... but the tuned angel is STILL better because of the MASSIVE gap there is between the stock models. Cliffio is 100% right, my 98 eclipse angel was far superior to any impulse that I've ever shot, and that was based off of the original LED model.

...as far as what lasoya is shooting, did you notice he started a new team? Think a new sponsor has anything to do with that? And a timmy is a superior marker, not an econo one like an impulse.

[Verbal138]

1. Look, you can use a search engine, congratulations. You said that I was ignorant or stupid and that you couldn't tell which, and then used that as a major premise to contest my arguments, this is close to text book definition buddy, try looking it up again and re-reading the definition.

...also, I didn't notice it earlier, but you committed the ad hominem circumstantial when you argued that everything I say should be ignored because you claimed that some/most of my points were invalid. Again, don't try and act like you have a clue when it comes to logic, it is blatanly obvious that you are completely ignorant in this regard.

2. Well, besides this being argued on the previous page - a sign your argument has been dismantled - you said that I said the following: "Its fair to compare the max potential of an Impulse and Angle when using a stock Impulse for the Impulse side" when I never said anything about the max potential of anything - this is an example of the straw man fallacy - I have always stated that stock vs stock is the true way to compare guns, because a moded gun brings in way too many variables.

3. You're changing the argument, another sign of a weak argument/position. We were talking about a $20 dollar knockoff purchased off a vendor in mexico, and they absolutely will flake off, turn your hand green, and I've even seen the arms fall off and the cheap clasps break. A rolex is far superior in everyway to a $20 knockoff, if you truly dispute this, than you are either completely ignorant or are allowing your desire to back up your weak argument with anything surpass what you know to be true.

4. For one, there's only about 15-20k difference between an accord and a boxster, but that is irrelevant. You said NOTHING about price of an item, obviously a more expensive item can feel more 'solid', and this was MY argument, thank you for re-enforcing it for me. YOUR argument was that one item made of the SAME material as another could not have a more 'solid' feel than the other item - well, you just disproved your own claim, congratulations.

Also, impulses usually range from 450-550, the 2k3 LCD LE - which means it was most likely priced higher than the full run - was 850, so it's more like 300-400, but this is why the impulse is an econo marker.

[Verbal138]

Sorry, tommy, as much as you would like to think I'm only a teenager - so then I would be on the same intellectual plane as you - I'm not, sorry to burst your bubble.

[EsPo]

in my opinion the only way to compare two guns is if they are of equal value... therefore, take an imp.. put 400 into it (400 for the imp + 400 = 800.. 800 = 2k3 lcd).. then compare.

[Cliffio]

or a 400 dollar impulse and a 400 dollar LED


no comparison, led every time



Cliff

you can even take a brand new 2003 if you want, and the 1999 led, still hands down

[ccarrigan]

I ain't heard a word you said, HIBBIDY HOOP LA!

This is not meant to go against anybody here because I believe everyone here actually plays paintball and everyone has at least shot these markers at some point in time. What boggles my mind is that nobody has actually said anything other than opinion yet. And I think that this is what it comes down to in high end markers is just opinion. So somebody can argue a point to death and in the end you still just have two great markers that any tourney level player could use just fine. What is my point? I really don't know. I was just chiming in for a first post. I am a cocker fan but I think any gun that is tuned properly with a decent loader will work just fine for any type of play.

[Ultimator]

Wow looking back on this thread, it is REALLY stupid. I would go back and delete my posts but that takes too much effort.

The Revelation I have come across:

I can shoot you out with my Rat Impulse. It works for me. I can shoot it fast, consistently, and efficiently, and that's all that matters! Hey, if you want to use the Angel, go right ahead, because it is a good marker as well. Whatever you are comfortable with is fine by me.

[ccarrigan]

LET THERE BE LIGHT

And the almighty above has spoken!