what % of the game is skill/equipment [Archive]

sniper1rfa

03-04-2003, 08:32 PM

the opposite is true as well. if you have the skills, but your gun is a piece (chops, misfeeds, shootdown, etc.) then your game WILL suffer.

i remember when, ater three years of my raptor, i upgraded to my current gun (my mayhem, amongst others). It was amazing. i felt so much more confident, and was getting many more eliminations, as well as staying in longer and using less paint. The skills were there originally, but the equipment was hampering me.

I say with lower end guns, its 30% the gun, and 70% game. with anything nice, its almost 100% skill.

IcantBelieveit

03-04-2003, 08:33 PM

o.k with the mag. 100% skills b/c the equipment will not hamper you

darklord

03-04-2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by sniper1rfa
I say with lower end guns, its 30% the gun, and 70% game. with anything nice, its almost 100% skill. I agree. This comes to play especially in tournies, where you need a fast gun in order to compete.

BajaBoy

03-04-2003, 08:37 PM

after i got my mag i started getting better, i now have my rt and everyone knowes that i have one of the fastes triggers around here. And everyone knows that my skills are showing now on the speedball field. And just for the 411 when i said fast trigger, i Do not spray and pray. Only sometimes when i know it might help... as a fellow back player

;)

but i do think if the right person has the right gun then there is no stopping them. (in more ways then less)

LaW

03-04-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by darklord
I agree. This comes to play especially in tournies, where you need a fast gun in order to compete.

entirely not true.

darklord

03-04-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by LaW

entirely not true. Says you, woman! :cool: I wouldn't dare step out onto a field up against timmies, angels, and matrixes with a bone stock mag. It just aint happening. 8bps doesn't cut it.

SI|ENT|3O|3

03-04-2003, 09:02 PM

hmmm...this is a tough question, when i had my rebel i got almost no eliminations, most of the time i was on the sideline watching techniques. After i jumped to my mag, i saw vast improvments, but i had also became much more aware of how the game works. i would say its about 90/10. I felt really good about the last time i went out to a cocker infested local field, and was nicknamed "the good guy with the mag" just made me smile, it almost brought tears to my eyes.:D
-sebastian

LaW

03-04-2003, 09:03 PM

wow, i would feel just as confident goign on the field with a "reliable" spyder ... sure i'm limited on rof... however come on... that extra rof isn't going to do much

ezrunner

03-04-2003, 09:12 PM

I would say 95% skill, 5% marker.

A 2 round shot from a snap shooter with a mechanical gun that is dead accurate, or a 6 round burst from an electro that isn't as well aimed are both something to dodge.

The point is that the 5% margin can kill you. If your gun goes down, then your game can and will suffer.

The gun does not make the game. However, you don't wanna walk into a field of angels with a spyder.

-rob

darklord

03-04-2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by LaW
wow, i would feel just as confident goign on the field with a "reliable" spyder ... sure i'm limited on rof... however come on... that extra rof isn't going to do much Would you, honestly? The ROF would do a lot. Not for snap shooting, but if you're laying down a stream of paint, it would. If I'm playing back, and I start shooting down a lane at 8 bps, there's a chance a fast runner could sprint through the stream. Whereas if I had say, a timmy, at 14bps, there'd be less likely of a chance for said player to dodge the paint. I guess it depends on what position you're playing.

LaW

03-04-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by darklord
Would you, honestly? The ROF would do a lot. Not for snap shooting, but if you're laying down a stream of paint, it would. If I'm playing back, and I start shooting down a lane at 8 bps, there's a chance a fast runner could sprint through the stream. Whereas if I had say, a timmy, at 14bps, there'd be less likely of a chance for said player to dodge the paint. I guess it depends on what position you're playing.

but you do know that it doesn't mean the game if he does happen to get through your stream of paint. You do not need ROF to be competative in tournament play. That is all I am arguing. Honestly I will go out on the field with whatever I have.

I played a tournament in low tech with our team of tracer pumps last march. There was only 1 other low tech team so we had to play high tech. We played very competative against all of those teams. Almost maxing at least 1 game. We were only maxed once, but every game we were able to score at least 2 eliminations with our pumps.

ß.C.

03-04-2003, 09:40 PM

Well it really depends on skill level. The more skill a player has the bigger the effect of a marker will be, the less experience a player has the smaller effect of a marker will be.

03-04-2003, 09:48 PM

I swear I get 99% of my kills in the first 3 shots.

I won my first tourney with a m98. Hell our whole team had 98's. the lastgame of that tourney we maxed 2 out of 3 in the finals, aganist what? eclipse angels!!!.

as long as it feels good in my hands I say it is 100% player. I think you guys see a kid with an angel/timmy/electro super sprayer 2000 and let it go to your head.

jb

Python14

03-04-2003, 09:54 PM

25% skill
25% Equipment
25% Team
25% heart

Explaination: A warrior is only as good as his weapon.
A good player is nothing without a good team.
A good team is nothing without good players.
A good player is nothing if he/she doesn't love what he does.

03-04-2003, 10:04 PM

WARPED1

03-04-2003, 10:09 PM

25% gun IMHO!

_Spork_1

03-04-2003, 10:12 PM

30 gun
70 skill

why would having a better gun make you have more skill? that would make it more gun

with a lower end gun it would take more skill think about it, and don't say" a spyder can compete w/ a high end gun" becuase we all know the answer, and some people are just in denial, and don't pull the Bad Company thing, becuase they get paid actual money to play, and they don't even do that good

xmetal2001

03-04-2003, 10:42 PM

If its atleast a spyder or a tippman, then I'd say in your typical recball its ALL SKILL from then on. Trust me, a spyder can beat a X-Mag in typical recball anyday.

However, in tournaments a little more reliance is put on equipment. If your gun goes down, your screwed. Depending on what position you play, shooting fast is an enormous advantage. Having a reliable gun that can keep up with your opponent is essential in tournaments.

So without being specific about rec or tournament play, I'm gonna say 95% skill, 5% equipment.

PzYcO

03-04-2003, 10:49 PM

It all depends...if you have an accurate gun, its about 25% marker, 75% skill, but if your marker sucks its gonna be about 10% marker, 90% skill....so...the better your marker, the less skill you need (not lots, but some...if you get my point)

WaRBladE

03-04-2003, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by IcantBelieveit
95% skill 5% equipment..if you don't have the skillz to pay the billz then what good is equipment?

Ditto...I had my micro-mag break down on me last weekend and I kicked my friends butts with a rental stock Tippmann 98 custom. They had Autocockers and other guns with good barrels and equipment on them etc. They had A LOT farther range and accuracy than me and I still could out shoot them for the most part. :D

I just had to run my *** off to get closer on the speedball field to actually get within a good accuracy range. ;)

joeyjoe367

03-04-2003, 11:52 PM

Well, you guys are putting up straight percentages, but here's how I'll do it.

X= gun
Y= skill

.9Y x .2X = skill

as you can see, if either X, or Y is zero, then overall skill will be zero, but the multipliers (.9 and .1) show that an increase in skill will have a greater effect on overall skill than an increase in gun.

*sigh* this is what taking too many math classes does to you.

RT pRo AuToMaG

03-05-2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Python14
25% skill
25% Equipment
25% Team
25% heart

Explaination: A warrior is only as good as his weapon.
A good player is nothing without a good team.
A good team is nothing without good players.
A good player is nothing if he/she doesn't love what he does.

How true this is. I'm a tourney baller myself but if my team can't make it out to practice, I'll play with the kids in camo. I have to admit they are pretty damn good, but over the years, a few things happened that absolutely killed me.

A kid with a rental RT model 98 'surrendured' me (no bunkering allowed in rec games)

now, most people would say it was my fault and that I wasn't paying attention, but you have to understand, if my team was with me, they would have either told me that the guy was coming or they would have shot him, so he would have never gotten to me.

When i had my RT pro (pre HALO and lvl 10)it would constantly chop (preset crossfire had too much input psi @850, it would go into runaway). I never got an elimination with that gun untill i got the halo and lx.

Tell me then that equipment doesn't make a player.

Once I accidentally shot a dude on my team in the leg (recball) because he ran to the same bunker i was going to after he said he was going left. LOL, if you need the whole story, PM me.

Proves that teammates matter.

Hope I made a few good points :rolleyes:

kosmo

03-05-2003, 09:03 AM

100% game. Proof in hand: Ive gotten people to surrender to me before even though i was out of paint, thusly at a 0% equipment level. He knew I was out of paint too. He tried to shoot me right after he put his hands up but the ref stopped him :D

xrancid_milkx

03-05-2003, 10:36 AM

I think its 95% skill and 5% equipment. Look at the team Total Grief (I think thats the name). They all play with stock markers in many tournaments and WIN. Did I mention the players they play against are not other stock class players, just your average timmies, angel, cocker using players. This just shows you equipment really doesn't mean anything. If you were truly good, I mean insanely good, then you could get one shot, one elimination with any marker.........like me:rolleyes:

mykroft

03-05-2003, 11:36 AM

All good equipment does is allow a player to play at his best.

That said, many players, especially in Rec Ball and Rookie-level tourney's use their gear as a crutch.

So, at low skill levels, the gear makes a much bigger difference. At high skill levels, the only thing about gear that really matters is reliability and consistency. As long as your gear is consistent and reliable, you're good to go. Just about everything can do 15+bps in decent hands today (From Black Dragun's to X-Mag's).

Look at Bad Company, a damned good pro team, who plays with spyders. They do pretty well too.

And skill matters more than gear. A rookie team with angels is going to get eaten alive by a decent amateur team with PGP's.

xen_100

03-05-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by darklord
Says you, woman! :cool: I wouldn't dare step out onto a field up against timmies, angels, and matrixes with a bone stock mag. It just aint happening. 8bps doesn't cut it.

I agre with LAW.......I have goone up against tourny player with thie angels and timmy and whatnot with my phantom. it only tkaes one ball to eliminate. anyone that thinks you really NEED 15+ BPS to be a contender in the game........doesn't have game to begin with.

nerobro

03-05-2003, 01:39 PM

did anyone notice a team beating a team full of electros with pumpguns this weekend?

I'm not going to say 2-3 bps will cut it in all situations. We had a single semi on the team to hold down lanes.

so long as a gun has an electrotrigger, you can make it fire as fast as any other electrogun. An e-spyder or a excal, you'll shoot the same speed.

Honestly, unless you're dependant on shooting a lane, you don't need more than 6-8bps. I was watching bam in their finals games at skyball, MOST of them weren't shooting fast. they weren't carrying enough paint to carry on at 12-14bps for any period of time.

Skill is MOST of the euqation. So long as the gun is realiable and accurate, you're in good shape. Rate of fire is seccondary.

The guy who had percentages on team, player, equipment, and heart probally had it close....

Everyone seems obsessed over the gun. When I will ay equipment is a good 1/4 of how you play. But equipment is proper pads for how you play, goggles that don't fog and don't pinch your nose, glasses that are the right prescription.... Improper equipment EASILY makes me play worse. The rest is player. If it's a team situation, the team can almost make or break a player. I'd give the team as much as 30% of the equation.

Mickster

03-05-2003, 01:55 PM

IMO i would have to say from previous experience equipment does play a little part in how well a team will perform. For example a team with non-electros and bottom of the line markers will find it very difficult to compete with a team full of e.g angels, emags, electro cockers, impulses etc...
Purely because they will not have the rate of fire that the markers mentioned have to e.g take players of the break. However the element of skill also comes into it a player makes the marker a marker does not make the player. On the team i currently play on we use several different levels of markers ranging from infernos to impulses. With these different markers we have managed to beat teams of all electros with top of the range equipment. Therefore i believe that it is mainly skill however with teams evenly matched equipment will aid in who is more successful.

just my to pennys worth

Mike

Bubonic Plauge

03-05-2003, 02:24 PM

Well, its going to be 90% skill 10% equipment IF all the equipment on the field is equal. Its obvious that if you have a pump you will have diffuculty hanging with a semi, not that it cant be done, but its not as easy.
My question is, does having a mag, warp fed, shooting over 20 balls a second going to give you an extreme advantage? Seems so, multiple articles have been stating it is hard to compete against warp fed mags.
Wouldnt that tend to prove that equipment makes a bigger difference than we want to believe?> WHy dont we all get 500 round hoppers and just unload with a warped level 10?
There used to be a hopper called the Dominator Commander that held 330 rounds....if I could only find it again...

Craigegg

nerobro

03-05-2003, 02:31 PM

there was also a vl3000 And the original halos held 220 rounds versus the 170 of now. *grins* much more than a pod just isn't worth it.

shartley

03-05-2003, 02:48 PM

Folks can argue back and forth all they want, but like some have already stated, there are so many variables that any FIXED percentage is just not true.

I think first of all it mostly hinges on the skill of the player how much of their “game” is them or their marker. But for those who disagree… no problem… I will take a proven good player with solid skills and play with them on my team with ANY marker (that is in working condition) over an unskilled player with the best marker setup known to mankind.

The saying that a warrior is only as good as his weapon is just not true at face value. It is a great reminder for people to keep their equipment in good working order, but it holds little more value over that. We have seen helicopters brought down with rocks, logs, and arrows… and we have seen a guided missile enter through a designated window and blow up a building from thousands of miles away. How do we explain that? ;)

Simply put, the warrior IS the weapon, and the “weapon” is only an extension of that. Put a good “weapon” in the hands of an unskilled warrior and you see some improvement… but put ANY weapon in the hands of a skilled warrior and you see something special. And having better equipment only magnifies that, but is not the key factor of what makes someone a good player/warriror.

So…..like I said, there is no fixed percentage, it all depends on the base skill level of the player and then determined from that. So each of us will have a different number.

nerobro

03-05-2003, 03:08 PM

well put.

darklord

03-05-2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by xen_100

I agre with LAW.......I have goone up against tourny player with thie angels and timmy and whatnot with my phantom. it only tkaes one ball to eliminate. anyone that thinks you really NEED 15+ BPS to be a contender in the game........doesn't have game to begin with. You implying I don't have game? Okay buddy :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yes, yes, yes.... the "only one ball to eliminate" anthem repeated by "snipers"..... Let me ask you this: can you burn a lane with a phantom? Or even lay down some cover on a bunker with a phantom? If someone tried to cover my bunker with a phantom, I'd be more likely to have the courage to pop out and try to eliminate you. I'm not saying you can't win a game with a talon, or any stock-class gun. I'm just saying that equipment plays more into the game than a measely 10% like most people have said. Oh yeah, spell check is your friend.

Sorry but unlike most of you I think that having a high rate of fire plays a part in most games. And to the guy who commented about Bad Company.... they use ELECTRO spyders, with sear tripping frames that I believe can be set up to 14bps. If you ask me, that's a pretty good rate of fire. It's one thing if you're using a phantom on a team where you have a few back players with fast guns. It's also one thing if you're in a stock-class tournament. It's another if you're an all stock-class team against a team of similar background with some fast guns.

I totally agree with the reliability issue as a factor. But don't lie to me and tell me that in the whole world of paintball, ROF isn't an issue. Why else did the industry jump from mechanical semi-autos to electros capable of ridiculous rates of fire?

joeyjoe367

03-05-2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by shartley

So…..like I said, there is no fixed percentage, it all depends on the base skill level of the player and then determined from that. So each of us will have a different number.

Shartley, go back and read my post. I think my description is the best, if I don't say so myself :)

It doesn't encorporate percentages at all>.

shartley

03-05-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by joeyjoe367

Shartley, go back and read my post. I think my description is the best, if I don't say so myself :)

It doesn't encorporate percentages at all>.
I did… but MINE is in language EVERYONE can understand. ;):D

TheJester

03-05-2003, 04:26 PM

the equipment doesn't make the player, the player makes the player, if you're good, you're good rather you're shooting an angel IR3, or an eagle talon. but just cause you have an angel IR3, doens't mean you're good, that's why i usually don't take my gun out untill after teams are picked, people will almost always pick me just cause i "have a shinny, cool looking gun"

mykroft

03-05-2003, 04:28 PM

Darklord: You did notice I mentioned that just about every gun is capable of 15+bps these days (Those Spyders sure are), the exception being pumps of course.

That doesn't make the Spyder an equal of an Angel. It's less consistent and less reliable than an Angel.

In today's market, reliability and consistency are the major differentiators, not ROF (Unless you're talking about a Matrix). When a gun going for $99 can hit 15 bps, ROF is no longer a real differentiator.

darklord

03-05-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by mykroft
Darklord: You did notice I mentioned that just about every gun is capable of 15+bps these days (Those Spyders sure are), the exception being pumps of course.

That doesn't make the Spyder an equal of an Angel. It's less consistent and less reliable than an Angel.

In today's market, reliability and consistency are the major differentiators, not ROF (Unless you're talking about a Matrix). When a gun going for $99 can hit 15 bps, ROF is no longer a real differentiator. I'd love to see a video of someone pulling out a mechanical spyder straight from the box, gassing it up, and pulling 15+bps....

this whole argument whether or not ROF makes a difference is making me tired...

shartley

03-05-2003, 04:39 PM

Tastes great!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

mykroft

03-05-2003, 04:51 PM

darklord: Are you deliberatly misunderstanding me? The marker is certainly capably of that speed, and it's incredibly cheap to equip it with an electro frame, so you can shoot it that fast, or just save some money and get a $99 Black Dragun (which is an electro btw).

paintballbeaver

03-05-2003, 04:58 PM

its all Skill man My favorite example Bad company and tippman effect

smilestyler

03-05-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by shartley
Tastes great!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Less filling!

hitmanng

03-06-2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by darklord
Yes, yes, yes.... the "only one ball to eliminate" anthem repeated by "snipers"..... Let me ask you this: can you burn a lane with a phantom? Or even lay down some cover on a bunker with a phantom? If someone tried to cover my bunker with a phantom, I'd be more likely to have the courage to pop out and try to eliminate you.....

I totally agree with the reliability issue as a factor. But don't lie to me and tell me that in the whole world of paintball, ROF isn't an issue. Why else did the industry jump from mechanical semi-autos to electros capable of ridiculous rates of fire?

First off, I would not need to "burn a lane with a phantom" I would lead the target and shoot you out. Ever been deer hunting. :p Try burning a lane with a shot gun.

Yes you are more likely to pop out when playing against a pump. That is what makes you so easy to hit.

Is ROF an issue in the industry? Of course it is, they are selling a product and they will make what people want to buy. CCI makes a lot of money on the phantom because it is a great marker. AGD makes a lot of money on the E-Mag for the same reason. As long as people want faster guns someone will sell them one.

Must admit that there is a big difference between a phantom and an E-Mag and you have to have a lot more skill to eliminate a player with a phantom than an E-mag. That is Shartly's point about a sliding percentage. Give a great warrior any tool and you will see something special. Give hima a great tool and you still get something special.
It really only takes one ball to eliminate the player. The question is how many do you need to shoot to hit them? If you are great it may only take one. If not, you may need to burn a lane for 3 seconds. What that like 25-50 balls?
Wow you have a 2-4% kill ratio. Man percentages stink.
Hitmanng

paintball snipy

03-06-2003, 02:25 AM

i would say 50/50

i mean if you are playing with a talon against some of the best guns you are going to get torn apart. but if you are playing with one of the best guns against alot of talons and blades then you are probbably going to rule almost regarless of how good you are (unless its your first time or somthing) and another thing, what if you are using a mask that can't stay defogged for 2 minutes? i mean no matter what your skill you can't shoot what you can't hit.

i remember a big game i went to a few months ago, it was the allies verse the axis. and well we were all pretty good but there were two guys on the other team that were ripping us apart with a imp and i think the other was an angel:confused: but any way we were overwelmed by teh rof and teh bigest trees were like a foot and a half wide. he was pretty much spraying and praying. he wasn't that good but he was shooting us with about 15 bps and he was tearing use apart.

but on the other hand if you can't play worth **** you are going to get torn apart no matter what gun you have. now don't get me wrong. if you have a talon and are super accurate i guess it only takes one shot to get sombody out. i played a tourney last year were you had to use talons only and they coudln't shoot straight at all and i chopped 1 out of 10 balls.(mister swab was dripping afterwords) but the people with teh skill took the tourney. so i think it is 50/50. i know i will get alot of **** for this but you can be the best but if you don't have a gun that can shoot above 250 and can't hit teh broad side of a barn you are pretty much screwed. but also if you have the best gun made you will have the atvantege over sombody with more skill but his/hers gun is alot worse then i would say you are almost even. i mean if you have a pretty new guy (atleast more than 10 times, not counting newbs on this) with the best gun made (not going to name it becouse i will get alot of **** nomadder waht i say is the best) playing against a more experienced with a pretty bad gun then i would say they would be almost even.