Action Persuit Games Article p144 OMG WTF?

[Carbon]

Quotas will right past wrongs? OMG gimmie a break! Is this a joke, if it is, well ha ha, she got me. Yall have got to read this article for the full effect. Anyway, its not like me to pipe up about stuff like this... but yall gotta read the article.... pure silly. This is America dammit! not Communist Russia!

Lemme quote yall what this chick is saying... hope it wont be taken outta context.

"enough! it is past time for affirmative action in paintbal. Correcting past wrong will be very easy: Require at least 20% of a competition team's players on the field in every game to be female. Two women on a 10- or 7- player team. One on a 5-, 3-, or 2- player team. No Exceptions.
Todays's discrimination must be stopped before sexism ruins this great sport. Female atheletes are entitled to affirmative action to correct past wrongs done to women by sponsors, coaches and players..."

Oh boy, I thought paintball was THE sport based on meritocracy, the best person for the job. not on gender bias. Well yeah, the sport is male dominated.. duh, but if ya want equality why even bother with a "women's" leauge. I thought paintball was co-ed from the begining.

[Crazy]

Theres the problem. APG is the joke of all paintball magazines.

[joeyjoe367]

That's rediculous.

[SampsonFBC]

I wonder if she's ever considered that there really aren't that many women paintball players out there? I guess she likes the idea of a lot less teams. I think she has personal issues

[WARPED1]

I hope that never happens.

[RetroEclipseMan]

I hope this doesn't come out wrong and I hate how I can never seem to get my opion across the right way over the net but here it goes.

Well I for one like how paintball is co-ed. I mean what other sport can truely say that. I notice more and more women playing at local fields and I think it's great. I just don't think what this girl is saying is very well thought out. It seems as if she's saying that women are totally left out and aren't able to play tourny ball which is totally ignorant on her part. Another thing is if every team is required to have a certain amount of females on their team how many of these teams would actually still be able to compete? I mean there's a lot of women that play but is there truly enough to play for every team?

[darklord]

Um, yeah, that just isn't going to happen. Affirmative action doesn't apply to sports, look at the NFL, NHL, MLB, etc.... paintball is a co-ed sport. If a female player makes the grade for a team, she should be able to join, but I don't think it is necessary to force female players onto teams. It is up to the individual whether or not they should be part of a team, and up to the team to decide whether or not the individual should join the team. Things are fine the way they are.

[Fred]

so... we clone Capo so every team can have her play???;) :rolleyes: :p

Seriously, if any girl wants to come play, i have no trouble with it, in fact, I usually tell girls at my local fields that its cool to see them there.

and Synreal's girlfriend is pretty good... it'd be funny to see someone try to hassle her about it... :D


Political correctness: Why America is going down the tubes.

---Fred

[Miscue]

That's just retarded on so many levels.

I claim that synchronized swimming is a sexist sport... because they only allow women!

I mean, come on people!

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

That is some BS. If that ever became a requirement, AT LEAST 85% of tourney teams will disappear. There are simply not enough women to fill those positions, and even if they were, it would still be BS. And looking at players like Claire, Keeley Watson, and some other individuals, the women may allready be better then the men :p .

[Clare]

so... we clone Capo so every team can have her play???

Yes, good idea! That would help me fulfill my plan even faster...Excccellent (a la mr.burns).


Anywho, yep that article is ludicrous

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by Miscue
I claim that synchronized swimming is a sexist sport... because they only allow women!Martin Short was a very accomplished synchronized swimmer.

[xrancid_milkx]

Come on now, this is a professional sport, not PE basketball. I have never seen in anyway women excluded from paintball. In fact, more girls playing paintball would be good for the sport. Us guys would play even harder to impress them:D

[pbzmag]

I for one believe that this is a dumb idea. If a girl wants to play, more power to her. But if another girl doesn't want to because she is afraid to get hurt, I won't push her to play. Granted I will let her know how safe the sport is, but I will let her decide whether to play or not.

[AlabamaMan]

That is one of the funniest thing that i have ever read.
A few years i dreamed up the stupid bomb (it would only kill dumb people)
I wish i could make it, and that ladies house would be the target.

[halB]

just for that, we shouldnt allow chicks to play paintball no more

[aaron_mag]

I thought it was a strange article myself. I doubt that the editors of APG are advocating that stance. They probably just felt it was an interesting viewpoint so they printed it.

For the record Jessica Sparks (who is the editor of Paintball Magazine and active in APG) is a very nice person and one of the early pioneers of paintball. I think I read somewhere that she and Budd Orr testified before one of the state legislatures to keep paintball from getting banned.

[back2integrity]

Originally posted by Fred
Political correctness: Why America is going down the tubes.

---Fred

You offended me with that statement ;) :p

[FooTemps]

wow... that'd just about kill paintball if teams had to meet that requirement... Guys outnumber girls in this sport because many girls don't want to play! Didn't she ever consider that before she even opened her mouth?

[demonguy8]

having a group that posseses 1-5% of a population forcibly inhabit 20% of the player slots just doesnt add up...my question is (going by the example)..... is it more sexist to not have girls on your team OR is it more sexist to remove 2 potentially MORE qualified males and replace them with females?...o well this isnt the time or the place to start a "why i think affirmative action is hypocracy" rant..

soo yeah anywayz... the only way ive ever seen women being treated differently in paintball is that theyre constantly being hit on... *cough capo *cough :rolleyes:

[oldsoldier]

I honestly dont think painball will be affected by this smallmindedness. One; it isnt truly a "recognized" sport yet. Therefore, they cant exercise that law. Two; you pay to play, making it money driven, rather than gender driven. True, most players are male; that doesnt mean that women are excluded. Thats just the way it is. Hell, most people would LOVE to see more women on the field! It would break down that "militant" barrier even more.
It would come down to what the sponsors and the promoters decide.

[Carbon]

I Think Crazy is right, some of APG's articles seem as if they were written by kids. I guess th e "political" agenda is there, but the articulation/explanation is just short of the bullseye.
In anycase, I think the "real" issue/querry this chick has is... how do we get more women to play?

I reff at a local field and the ratio of male to female is somewhere around 13:1. Heck who knows it might even be biology which may account for the disparity in numbers...

Going on a limb here, hypothetical question... 10 on 10 game of noobs vs noobs, opposing teams of the opposite sex. Which do you think will enjoy themselves more or will more likley to play pball again? obvious answer?

[Tyger]

I wrote a reply to that article, haven't sent it in yet, mainly becasue a part of me thinks it's a joke. "Affirmative Action" doesn't work in the long run. As noble he cause, the exocution is poor, at best.

If hte problem is scantily cald women selling product, the solution is easier. Don't buy the product. Duh. If the problem is that women are being restricted in playing paintball, then prove that women can play. Capo is doing this already, I can see her playing pro based on what I saw at Skyball. :)

(Don't tell my wife I said that, ok?)

-Tyger

[PzYcO]

I wouldnt mind having 2 girls on my team, it would be kinda intresting...too bad there arent that many girls that play paintball :/

[dansim]

Originally posted by ben_JD
Martin Short was a very accomplished synchronized swimmer.
Martin short is a ____ so its still only a female sport;)

[Collegeboy]

It isn't about political correctness or anything like that IMO.

It sounds like to me see was denied a spot on a team, probably because she is no good, and she now is claiming it is sexist for they didn't want a girl on a team.

I can't see why any team wouldn't take a good player whatever their sex is. In fact given that most woman are smaller then men, it is an advantage to a certain degree.

Oh and the magazine probably had to post it, it wouldn't sound good if it comes out they are repressing the voice of the minority. (That is PC)

[Jackel411]

Wow... thats a bit much...

FYI this is local stats from a NY based field...

Staff: 65 people.... of that 5-6 are female.
My team: 50 people... of that 2 are female

Its a ratio that is mind boggling.. that concept that she wrote about could happen if more would play , which I dont see happening any time soon.....

As for APG??? THEY HAVE AN ARTICAL!!!!! Crap! I thought it was just 200 pages of adds....

[shartley]

I did not read the article… with that said, I will address some issues that I have seen brought up on this thread.

Affirmative Action and Paintball.
That has got to be the biggest load of bovine dressing that I have heard in a long time. When I play paintball at organized fields I OFTEN see women playing paintball. They are not shunned, in fact most of the time they are WANTED on people’s teams. Of course this if for Rec Play, but it shows that women DO play and not as infrequent as some folks seem to think they do.

And as for Tournament Teams, what I have found is that teams want to WIN. And skill is the only criteria that is judged when looking for team members (and of course if they can get along with fellow members). I don’t know any team that would deny a player because of their sex.. well… let me retract that statement…. I don’t know any MALE team that would deny a female player simply because she was a female. I do think however, that we could list a couple FEMALE teams that would do the opposite.

Now folks could “argue” that no male would want to be on an all female team (and we all know the teams I am talking about), but that is totally irrelevant. When you bring up discussions and arguments about equal rights and total integration in ALL aspects of EVERY part in life, you had better be expected to hold up YOUR end of it as well.

Unfortunately we see this all over. Someone wants to do what someone else does, and they don’t care if they DESERVE to do it, or if they are QUALIFIED to do it, or even if it is WORTH doing it at all. And Paintball, I am happy to say is not an “all boys club” but truly treats all players by their skill levels, and not their genitalia. And if you can’t hack it, don’t try brining up some “exclusionary” argument involving gender.

Both of my daughters who are of paintball playing age HAVE played. One no longer plays because she simply lost interest (she is 20), and my 15 year old daughter still DOES play. And they have NEVER been discriminated against in the paintball world, and in fact have been treated BETTER than most males I have seen. Funny how that works isn’t it?

Now talk about unequal standards…. To stand out in the paintball world as a male you have to be a superman. You have to be the best of the best. But what about if you are a female? Some may not like me saying so, but it has been commented on by other members here on AO as well in the past…. To stand out in the paintball world as a female you must fit a few criteria.. 1) Play the game. 2) show at least minimal talent. 3) Get your face/body seen in as many places as possible.

You want to talk about an unfair advantage? If you are a female and want to make something of yourself in this sport, you have a HECK of a lot easier time than if you are a male. PERIOD. Now, am I complaining about this? Heck no. But for those who want to cry about how unfair things are for females…. Get a grip. In a male dominated sport, simply BEING female gives you an edge. And that is a fact.

Now, as for paintball being a male dominated sport……. YES IT IS. But that is not because of any “exclusionary” tactics, policies, or “boys only” mentality. It is simply because as a group, females don’t gravitate to a sport that involves “shooting” opponents and getting hit. Hey, I didn’t make this up, it is just the way of things. And my daughters are a good example of that. One played minimally and stopped, and the other still plays. And look to their friends…. Jessica who still plays has 0 friends who play paintball. While almost all of Jay’s friends play paintball.

Female only league.
This has been discussed a few times here on AO, and simply put I would be all for one… IF there were enough female players to warrant one. But since I don’t think there are (or at least not enough to compare to their male counterparts) I think it is a bad idea. Then you would have to make an all male league as well. And then maybe a mixed league. Bah…. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! We already HAVE tournament leagues that allow BOTH sexes…. Play by the merit of your skill not your gender.

Paintball does not require any physical contact. Paintball does not require special strength requirements. Think about it, I can play with or against my son who is 13! And the same with my daughter who is 15! Think they are as “fast” or as “strong” as I am? Not likely. But do not underestimate them on the playing field will get you in serious trouble. Same with ANY player, either sex, and any age.

Paintball tournaments are also determined by factors that don’t come close to gender factors. I don’t think any of the female players on the tourney scene would want people letting them “slide” because they are female. If they are good enough to compete and win, THEY DO. Same as the guys out there.

Want Paintball to truly be gender blind? Stop creating the distinctions and stop whining about problems that just don’t exist as a “sport wide” issue. But like it or not, females are females, and males are males… and THANK GOD! But we can BOTH enjoy the sport on equal footing determined only by our skills, not our genders (all but the notoriety aspects that I already mentioned). And because of how the sport works, entire families can enjoy it as well….. as mine does!

So… stop crying and bellyaching… and get out on the field! Life sometimes is not “fair”, and we don’t always get “our way”, DEAL WITH IT. ;)

[JAM]

wow Shartley, take a breath...
;)

well, i for one would like to see more women in the sport- i think it would help to defeat the image of paintball players as blood thirsty survivalists. BUT, quotas are not the way to go about it... good female role models in the sport to encourage new female players to start is a good thing. and once that base of player diversifies a lot more, then women will certainly show up on tournament teams. I'm not being sexist here so no flames, but paintball is not a sport based mainly on physical strength- like football for example... Paintball relies on speed and agility more. And i for one have known more than a few girls/women who were a lot faster and more agile than most guys.

For what it's worth.

[breg]

HMMMMMMMMM....

I agree with whoever said that APG is the biggest joke in Paintball Magazines. I really can't abide by a publication where better than half the content is ads.
That aside, I have to say that in my playing, I've never noticed any sexual discrimination. As a matter of fact, I've always noticed male player are harder on each other than female players. Unless their skills are not up to par.
But, I'll say this: if women want to make their own league, go right ahead. But, don't get angry if the guys make their own league as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
And, in closing, the idea that was brought forth about a certain percentage of teams should be female; that is the worst idea ever. Half the fun of playing a team is (hopefully) winning with your frineds. Not having to leave someone out based on that person's gender. Team size limit rules not withsatnding.
In the end, I've always thought of paintball as one of the great equalizers, where ANYONE could march onto the field, play their @$$ off, and be judged solely one's skill.

Maybe I'm blind.
Hope not.

[ogre55]

Shartley:

As is almost always the case you have beat me to punch on AO. It's almost supernatural. Spiderman has spider-sense. Daredevil has radar-sense. Dante (from Angst Technologies) has addict-sense. Shartley apparently has AO-sense. :D

Anyway, the only thing I would like to add is that this is the only sport (that I am aware of, anyway) that is trully co-ed on all levels. From rec ball to tourney ball. From rookie, all the way to the pros, women compete with and against men on an equal level. There is no handicapping for teams with women on them or all female teams.

I am not even sure if Title 9 would apply to paintball if it were an officially sanctioned college sport as it is strictly co-ed. But I am getting ahead of myself. Raehl, can you chime in on this one. Have you dealt with this problem yet?

Ogre

[mykroft]

Gotta agree with Shartley on this one.

He somewhat glosses over the fact that Afirmative Action is explicitly Racist/Sexist( positions are handed out based on sex or race, that's a textbook example of discrimination, no matter what is used to justify it) .

And frankly, I'm having a hard enough time finding 4 good players who are willing to work as a team, commit to regular practices and aren't either primadonnas or annoying twits. I really don't want to have to restrict my options based on somebody's plumbing.

Frankly, Paintball is a sport that women should be able to excel at. The strength requirement is minimal (Sure my gun is heavy, but there are excellent, light setups out there), physical size is a disadvantage and running is limited to short sprints. Frankly, due to size issues, women have a distinct advantage as front players. Their only disadvantage is that most women players aren't terribly aggressive.

And as Shartley says, a sport that involves shooting people isn't going to attract a significant number of women anytime soon.

[aaron_mag]

We all agree on this issue but we definetely do not agree on Title 9/affirmative action. Lets not even go there!!

[shartley]

Originally posted by breg
I agree with whoever said that APG is the biggest joke in Paintball Magazines. I really can't abide by a publication where better than half the content is ads.
APG hits a demographic, it is that simple. And almost every industry has similar magazines.

As for more than half of its content being ads….. actually that can be a draw. There are also similar magazines in the auto world, fashion industry, home crafts mags, science pubs, etc. And some people pick up these magazines FOR the ads. ;) Also, if the demographic (or exact target group within that demographic) end up purchasing your products because of an Ad placed in such a magazine, the ROI can be very well worth it.

If anyone hasn’t noticed, AGD has not only hit the tournament scene, but they are also starting to give the appropriate attention to the Rec and Scenario folks (a HUGE buying demographic). And guess who would be inclined to purchase APG? Folks also have to realize that many paintball “perceptions” are caused directly because of the ads people see…. or DON’T see. And AGD found that out. ;)

So, for those who feel APG is a joke… you may want to think again…. As they laugh all the way to the bank. Ads don’t just get put into a publication, they are PAID for. :D And if the magazine did not receive good circulation, it would not be worth putting an ad in it.. would it? Ahhhh, the cycle goes round and round.

I can agree that it is not a publication for everyone, but it does well with its target audience, and is not a joke.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
We all agree on this issue but we definetely do not agree on Title 9/affirmative action. Lets not even go there!!

I think you misunderstand. I am not condoning,promoting or vilifying Title 9. Colleges have paintball teams now, although they are are classified as clubs, rather than team sports. There is even a National Collegiate Paintball Association.

If a college adopts paintball as an official sport, than it would fall under the purview of Title 9. All I said is that because men and women compete with and against each other in paintball, Title 9 may not apply.

I hope I have clarified my statement.

Ogre

[nippinout]

I sometimes pick up APG just for all the pretty ads in it. :)

I don't bother for magazines really. I'm not part of the 2%. I'm the 98%.

I think Centerflag magazine is going to focus on rec/scen games. Thank Jebus someone wants to focus on the bread and butter.

[breg]

Don't get me wrong, I've owned every copy of APG since I started playing (about a year now). It's like a car accident. I can't not read it. Call it a guilty pleasure. But I still say that there are a lot better magazines out there.

[BTAutoMag]

if that many women wanted to paintball and did tournies we wouldnt need a rule. the problem is that if that is passed (it wont) you will have girls out there with no skill who are just doing it so the team can play

[magnj]

APG sucks, I wish I could get my money back...
Anyway, I read that article too. Very stupid. I dont see any discrimination going on, it's just a lack of players. Im sure if a girl showed up on a pro team and played, people would respect her and no one would say :" im not playing with a girl"

[shartley]

Originally posted by magnj
APG sucks, I wish I could get my money back...
If you really feel that way, I am sure they would be more than happy to give you your money back.... after all, you did present your thoughts and feelings in such a mature and clear manner.

Why don't you call them up?

[Webmaster]

yeah - I saw this 2-3 weeks ago.

Here is a scan of the article:
http://mister44.com/projects/quota/quota.jpg

and here is my op ed I sent to APG which will probably get printed:
http://mister44.com/projects/quota/quota.doc

[hitech]

Originally posted by Webmaster
...and here is my op ed I sent to APG which will probably get printed...

Let us hope so. BTW, it was very well written. :D

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


Let us hope so. BTW, it was very well written. :D
Yes, it was okay. ;)

[Tom Sparkman]

Very good. I look forward to seeing it in APG.

Tom

[Webmaster]

"Yes, it was okay."

WOW! It was almost - could possibly construded as a positive comment!

This one is going on the fridge! ;o)

[shartley]

:D I thought you would like that. LOL

[Clare]

If the problem is that women are being restricted in playing paintball, then prove that women can play. Capo is doing this already, I can see her playing pro based on what I saw at Skyball.

(Don't tell my wife I said that, ok?)

Wow, Thanks for the compliment..

Too late, I've already told your wife :p ;)

[EnderWigginPballin]

Originally posted by ogre55

Daredevil has radar-sense. .

Ogre

i've seen the movie twice, and technically, since it's caused by his superhuman sense of sound, shouldn't it be sonar sense.
because radars don't pick up sound waves.


and as for the topic... There is no way that any team would ever concede to a rule like that. Think about any of the top teams. They pick up the BEST players because they're the BEST at paintball. You think Renick Miller or Jerry Braun or whoever else will let their teams play in a league where they might have to give up two of their top-notch players so that a minority can play????

[Evil Bob]

You guys are making this all up, right? Come on, admit you got this article from The Onion :)

Webby, very nice article, I agree with it 100%. Of all the people I have invited to play with me, 95% of those that return to play after the first time are male.

I have invited alot of ladies to play, have had roughly 100 (give or take a few) that have gone out to try it once over the past 20 years, of those 100 or so, I know of only 3 that still play. The gents seem to take to the sport at a much higher percentage, roughly half of the gents I have invited are still playing.

The numbers just are not there to support such an outlandish idea as the guest commentary suggests.

-Evil Bob

[Bront]

Ok, so a minimum of women on a male team. Does that mean that the Fem Fatales need a guy or two on their team then? If not, why the double standard?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Bront
Ok, so a minimum of women on a male team. Does that mean that the Fem Fatales need a guy or two on their team then? If not, why the double standard?
I touched on that a little in my post. ;) Valid arguement.

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Fred
Political correctness: Why America is going down the tubes.

---Fred the sad thing is that for the most part thats true:D . political correctness is a bunch of bull, i mean, most people arent politics, so who the f cares? (feeble mind trying to think of something to write bout how gh3y "political correctness" is.)

[demonguy8]

I think that Ill go volunteer to play as the "quota guy" on fems.. ;) (mmm surrounded by paintball chixx... *drool)
O but wait femmes is an UN-PC name since the team would have the quota guy (ie me) on it, so it would have to be changed... how about Persons Fatale? I dunno doesnt have the same ring too it (not that it would matter cuz the team wouldnt win a game with me on the field, and thus noone would notice us anywayz :rolleyes: )

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley

APG hits a demographic, it is that simple. And almost every industry has similar magazines.
....Ahhhh, the cycle goes round and round.

I can agree that it is not a publication for everyone, but it does well with its target audience, and is not a joke.

It is amazing! I disagree with Shartley vehemently on so many things but there are other things that we are in total agreement. They have a niche and they operate on a particular business model. Nothing wrong with that...

[alkafluence]

Originally posted by SampsonFBC
I wonder if she's ever considered that there really aren't that many women paintball players out there? I guess she likes the idea of a lot less teams. I think she has personal issues

Alot less teams, will be what happens. Look what happened with Title IX and sports in college. Don't get me wrong, I totally support opportunities for women to play college sports, but what Title IX did is to cause colleges to cut alot of men's sports. Especially wrestling.

Basically, there are 3 main ways to comply with Title IX for colleges to ensure equality of conditions for male and female athletes.

A. Intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students must be provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments ("Proportionate Athletic Opportunity"); or
B. Where the members of one sex have been and are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, the institution must show a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the members of that sex; or
C. Where (A) and (B) above cannot be met, an institution must demonstrate that the interests and abilities of the members of the discriminated gender class have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present athletics program.


Unfortunately, a number of lawsuits have made it, so that the only way to escape the lawsuits is to comply with section A. In doing this, it has caused various men's sports to be removed.

IMHO- if something like this were to be implemented in paintball, the exact same thing would happen. (the number of overall teams would drop, dramatically)


So instead of ensuring compliance the result was as follows: About 400 men's college teams were eliminated during the 1990s, as schools attempted to meet standards requiring a ratio of male and female athletes similar to the overall student population.

As of late there has been alot of discussion about re-evaluating Title IX. http://enquirer.com/editions/2003/01/31/spt_TitleIX31.html