A shocking development

[hitech]

Oaky, I wasn't going to post this. However, other semi-political issues have been posted and left up, so here goes. The following was an email sent to me by a friend. Following it is my initial response.


CAN THIS BE TRUE?
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of PanAm Flight 103!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001!
REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM attacks!

Now the United States Postal Service REMEMBERS and HONORS the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a commemorative first class holiday postage stamp. REMEMBER to adamantly and vocally BOYCOTT this stamp when purchasing your stamps at the post office. To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died at the hands of those whom this stamp honors. REMEMBER to pass this along to every patriotic AMERICAN you know, whether by e-mail or otherwise.


And my initial response


Bigotry run amok.
Are you willing to take responsibility for every atrocity committed by an American? Oklahoma City mean anything to you? Did you know that American Samoa didn't even know what child molestation was before we got there (because it didn't happen)? Don't fall into the trap of associating what small groups of radicals do with everyone. That's bigotry, and I am truly offended.

Edit: Fixed typeo

[irbodden]

Stupidity..

Nothing wrong with Muslims, those terrorists are NOT 'muslims'.

[shartley]

Interesting…. And I agree with you.

With that said.. the US Postal Service has NO place celebrating any religious thing, be it for ANY reason. The separation of Church and State takes care of that, and we have seen all Religious things removed from other Government sponsored things. I have a problem when special allowances are made for any group…

[irbodden]

Originally posted by shartley
Interesting…. And I agree with you.

With that said.. the US Postal Service has NO place celebrating any religious thing, be it for ANY reason. The separation of Church and State takes care of that, and we have seen all Religious things removed from other Government sponsored things. I have a problem when special allowances are made for any group…

That's not what the email is arguing though.

It's saying we shouldn't support anything Muslim because Muslims all want to kill us, which is obviously untrue.

[shartley]

Originally posted by irbodden


That's not what the email is arguing though.

It's saying we shouldn't support anything Muslim because Muslims all want to kill us, which is obviously untrue.
I understand that.... see how I made my post in two parts? ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
With that said.. the US Postal Service has NO place celebrating any religious thing, be it for ANY reason.

I am usually a big separation of Church and State type, but having postage stamps that "honor" religious holidays doesn't bother me personally. It also doesn't bother me if someone else thinks it is wrong.

I didn't post all the emails back and forth with another friend who at first was in full support of the original email. He ended up saying that he did not believe it was appropriate at this time to come out with such a stamp. His analogy was that not all Catholics are child molesters but he doesn't think a Catholic stamp would be appropriate at this time. I don't have a problem with that view. I just thought you would appreciate a "Time and place" argument being used by someone else. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech
I am usually a big separation of Church and State type, but having postage stamps that "honor" religious holidays doesn't bother me personally. It also doesn't bother me if someone else thinks it is wrong.

I didn't post all the emails back and forth with another friend who at first was in full support of the original email. He ended up saying that he did not believe it was appropriate at this time to come out with such a stamp. His analogy was that not all Catholics are child molesters but he doesn't think a Catholic stamp would be appropriate at this time. I don't have a problem with that view. I just thought you would appreciate a "Time and place" argument being used by someone else. ;)
I have always been one that never really cared about the Church and State issue actually. It has only been recently (the past 10 years or so) that it has begun to matter a great deal to me. And it isn’t because of any other reason than so many other “groups” make a big fuss about it. So, what is good for one, is good for ALL. Folks want separation of Church and State… FINE.. but they had better do it across the board. No picking and choosing. ;)

As for your “time and place” argument…. HeeHee! I love it. And it does bring up a good point. Appropriateness often times hinges on those two factors. :)

[yeahthatsme]

can you say IGNORANCE!?!?!?!?!

just because some muslims (exremist muslims) did terrible things doesnt mean the religion condones it.


i like this analagy(sp?):

terrorism is to muslims as ______ is to christianity

can you guess what the blank is?

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
So, what is good for one, is good for ALL... but they had better do it across the board. No picking and choosing. ;)


I agree. That would be a big thing for me also. A friend of mine who works for a bank went to a "diversity" training class. They were told a story about how a black man had come into a large sum of money and would only work with another blank person at the bank. They went on to say how wonderful it was that the banks hiring policies were "diverse" and they could accommodate him. My friend asked, Isn't that discrimination? If the person was caucasian and would only work with caucasians...

[Hexis]

While the Postal Service is an arm of the Govenrment, I don't think they should be limited within reason to specific types of Stamps. If they can do Elvis stamps, they can do Religious stamps.

They are just an option, you can get plain stamps if you would rather.

The terrorists are clearly not muslim. Someone who pretends they are has a pretty drastic misunderstanding of some of the core muslim beliefs.

[yeahthatsme]

ok, heres the whole analagy:

terrorist are to muslimes as the KKK is to christianity.

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by shartley
Interesting…. And I agree with you.

With that said.. the US Postal Service has NO place celebrating any religious thing, be it for ANY reason. The separation of Church and State takes care of that, and we have seen all Religious things removed from other Government sponsored things. I have a problem when special allowances are made for any group…
First off, AWESOME KEYCHAIN!!!

Anyway, I could take your argument and logically conclude that we should not celebrate the life of Martin Luther King Jr. because he was a minister. Do you think that we should not have a holiday simply because he was a man of God?

[Thordic]

The USPS isn't the government, though, its a corporation wholly owned by the government, I beleive.

It isn't a political organization in any case, so I don't know if church and state even matters in this case.

[shartley]

Originally posted by deathstalker
First off, AWESOME KEYCHAIN!!!

Anyway, I could take your argument and logically conclude that we should not celebrate the life of Martin Luther King Jr. because he was a minister. Do you think that we should not have a holiday simply because he was a man of God?
First of all... THANKS! Glad you like it. :)

Second.... it is not MY rules or way of thinking that you are asking about.. it is the LAW and Constitution. I think if you go back and read what I wrote, you will see that I personally don’t care if ANYONE or ANY religion is recognized or celebrated by the Government. What I care about is that the same rules apply to EVERYONE. And if you don’t allow one group, and truly want to separate Church and State, it has to be totally, and not selective. ;)

As for MLK… you are confusing the issue. MLK is not remembered because he was a religious man, or a minister. It is because he was one of the leading people in the Civil Rights Movement. And if you do a little research, you will find that some States do not celebrate MLK day, they celebrate Civil Rights Day. ;) And this is not a Church and State issue, but one of the Man VS the Movement.

MLK has never been a Church and State issue.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Thordic
The USPS isn't the government, though, its a corporation wholly owned by the government, I beleive.

It isn't a political organization in any case, so I don't know if church and state even matters in this case.
Very true. But because it is funded with Tax Dollars and controlled wholly by the Government, it is a Church and State issue.

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by deathstalker

First off, AWESOME KEYCHAIN!!!

Anyway, I could take your argument and logically conclude that we should not celebrate the life of Martin Luther King Jr. because he was a minister. Do you think that we should not have a holiday simply because he was a man of God?

I'm not sure if you were just bringing up a point or what not and I am not flaming you but if you say that we shouldn't celebrate MLK Day because he is was a minister(btw, already been said why we actually celebrate that day) then technically the government shoudln't recognize Christmas as a national holiday then. Now I personally could care less about the whole issue. It's not like anyone is forcing me to buy those stamps or anything.

[scarpa43]

Very true. But because it is funded with Tax Dollars and controlled wholly by the Government, it is a Church and State issue.

I am prety sure this is not true, as I remember the USPS gets 100% of its money through the sale if stamps. No tax dollars go to them.

Also, the separation of church and state does not really exist. The phrase "In God We Trust" is everywhere, most notably on currency.

In addition the that, Christmas is a huge thing in the government. Every year they make a big deal of putting up a tree in the White House, that is a symbol of a religious holiday.

[shartley]

Originally posted by RetroEclipseMan


I'm not sure if you were just bringing up a point or what not and I am not flaming you but if you say that we shouldn't celebrate MLK Day because he is was a minister(btw, already been said why we actually celebrate that day) then technically the government shoudln't recognize Christmas as a national holiday then. Now I personally could care less about the whole issue. It's not like anyone is forcing me to buy those stamps or anything.
Actually Christmas is non-secular as we know it today. The NAME is Christian in origin, but the actual holiday as celebrated by the majority of people is non-secular and what religious implications there are, are directly up to the individual celebrating the holiday.

I think that the vast majority of people have no idea what Christmas is really about (the reason it is on the day it is, the various symbols we now use and where they actually come from, etc.) and would be very surprised to find out that Christianity actually plays a very small part in the “holiday” now days… and none as it pertains to Church and State.

[shartley]

Originally posted by scarpa43
I am prety sure this is not true, as I remember the USPS gets 100% of its money through the sale if stamps. No tax dollars go to them.

Also, the separation of church and state does not really exist. The phrase "In God We Trust" is everywhere, most notably on currency.

In addition the that, Christmas is a huge thing in the government. Every year they make a big deal of putting up a tree in the White House, that is a symbol of a religious holiday.
You may want to research that... I definitely will.

The phrase “In God We Trust” is also a heavily debated argument. And we see many such issues argued each day in the courts. Separation of Church and State DOES exist, but it just has not been fully enforced. There is a difference. ;)

As for the Christmas Tree being the symbol of a “religious holiday”.... yes and no. If you can tell me the religion the Christmas Tree (as we know it) is actually a part of, I will concede that point... but if you can't... ;) (Oh… I will give you a clue… it ISNT Christianity as the name makes most people think. ;))

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by shartley

Actually Christmas is non-secular as we know it today. The NAME is Christian in origin, but the actual holiday as celebrated by the majority of people is non-secular and what religious implications there are, are directly up to the individual celebrating the holiday.

I think that the vast majority of people have no idea what Christmas is really about (the reason it is on the day it is, the various symbols we now use and where they actually come from, etc.) and would be very surprised to find out that Christianity actually plays a very small part in the “holiday” now days… and none as it pertains to Church and State.

Very true. I was going to add that in but totally forgot.

[hitech]

Actually, a Christmas Tree is NOT a religious symbol. That tradition was started by those who were not Christian ("pagans") and wanted something in "protest" of Christianity. Interesting, isn't it?

[Jack_Dubious]

Wait a min...did anyone check to see even if it is a true story? I mean is the USPS really trying to create that stamp?


*EDIT Ok i just checked....they did issue that stamp.

JDub

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech
Actually, a Christmas Tree is NOT a religious symbol. That tradition was started by those who were not Christian ("pagans") and wanted something in "protest" of Christianity. Interesting, isn't it?
Even more so, it was part of a celebration in preparation for the upcoming growing season. They used a tree, put candles on it to help their prayers rise, and tied little “gifts” to the branches as well. Ahhh it is all coming together now!

Christmas, and other such holidays have been formed with the direct input of many religious leaders to help stop religion against religion violence in the past. By creating a holiday that they all could celebrate in their own way on the same day (or time frame), they eliminated a lot of problems.

Again… ahhhhh it is all coming together now. ;)

:D Good plan if you ask me. But it causes a lot of misconceptions now days. :)

[Hexis]

From: USPS History Web Page (http://www.usps.com/history/anrpt02/)
...we are an "independent establishment of the executive branch" wholly owned by the U.S. government and its citizens.

Pretty clear to me that they are a Gov entity. I still think they should be able to issue stamps for anything (within reason). Since no 1 stamp is forced on a USPS customer, there is no reason (in my mind) to use the seperation of church and state argument to limit stamp types.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
Actually Christmas is non-secular as we know it today. I think that the vast majority of people have no idea what Christmas is really about (the reason it is on the day it is, the various symbols we now use and where they actually come from, etc.) and would be very surprised to find out that Christianity actually plays a very small part in the "holiday" now days? and none as it pertains to Church and State.

I agree! I think many people would be quite surprised to find out where some of the various traditions came from. I would assume that most people know what the day is and why we give presents (but maybe not, I was raised Catholic). I'd bet that's are far as it goes. I am not "Christian" but don't have a problem with this country celebrating Christmas. As a matter of fact, I refuse to call it our annual "Holiday" Party. It is our "Christmas" party. I wish people Merry Christmas, and it doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Muslim, etc. I'm certainly not offended when someone wishes me a happy Hanukah.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Hexis
Pretty clear to me that they are a Gov entity. I still think they should be able to issue stamps for anything (within reason). Since no 1 stamp is forced on a USPS customer, there is no reason (in my mind) to use the seperation of church and state argument to limit stamp types. Well, that about settles the Church and State issue. ;)

Also, I think folks may want to check out their Annual Report page. ;)

Originally posted by hitech


I agree! I think many people would be quite surprised to find out where some of the various traditions came from. I would assume that most people know what the day is and why we give presents (but maybe not, I was raised Catholic). I'd bet that's are far as it goes. I am not "Christian" but don't have a problem with this country celebrating Christmas. As a matter of fact, I refuse to call it our annual "Holiday" Party. It is our "Christmas" party. I wish people Merry Christmas, and it doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Muslim, etc. I'm certainly not offended when someone wishes me a happy Hanukah.
And neither am I. :)

Want to blow people’s minds? As them what Kwanza is. ;) African? Not by a LONG shot. And it is NEW.

[cphilip]

I don't even think Christmas is celebrated on what is believed and accepted to be the actual date of the birth of Jesus. But still I can see the argument of it all. And I also will note that just becuase terrorists use the Muslim religeon as an excuse we should not blame all of them for the actions of a few. In fact when those actions are totaly contrary to the teahings of that faith its an abomination of it. Nor can I blame all Christains for the Crusades...

I think they will do anything for revenue though. And selling stamps is one of the biggies. And they have done so on any subject that they can. It's kind of a unique Art form and collected. But that doesn't realy make it right though. But in the whole scheme of things in the world it realy doesn't bother me too much. I am not offended by any of it so far.

[cphilip]

...dam...I need to check my spelling a little better! :(

[nippinout]

shartley, the USPS is not funded through tax dollars.

It is self-sufficient.

The Postal Inspectors is like the USPS's version of the FBI, also self-sufficient, but part of USPS.

Their website is even a .com not a .gov site.

Taken from the site:

Three of the Postal Service's six product lines would qualify as Fortune 500 companies:

Correspondence & transactions
a $35.9 billion business
Business advertising
a $15.7 billion business
Expedited delivery
a $5.9 billion business
Publications delivery
a $2.2 billion business
Standard package delivery
a $1.99 billion business
International mail
a $1.7 billion business


That's a lot of chedda!

[shartley]

Originally posted by nippinout
That's a lot of chedda!
And yet they still can't manage to run in the black? Go read their fiscal statements. ;)

Also, you may be correct in that they don’t use Tax Dollars DIRECTLY, but even according to their own admission, they receive funds through … well, here it is…

“Although the Postal Service is excluded from the U.S. government budgetary process, the Postal Service enters into significant transactions with other government agencies, as disclosed throughout these financial statements.”

And those other government agencies DO receive direct Tax Dollars. ;)

Also, if you are an employee of the USPS you are a GOVERNMENT Employee.

Here… you may want to read the following and pages linked directly to it.
http://www.usps.com/history/anrpt02/

Also, be it known that having a .com does not mean you are NOT part of the Government. ;)

(Added: Sorry.. had to make note… type in usps.gov and then usps.com. See where you end up. ;) Same site.)

[nippinout]

Thanks for the info.

My parents work for the government, but they aren't super spys. :( :D

[shartley]

Originally posted by nippinout
Thanks for the info.

My parents work for the government, but they aren't super spys. :( :D
LOL Are you SURE? ;)

[The Frymarker]

I may be wrong, but I was informed that "Christmas Trees" were decorated in the winter with cranberries, popcorn and bells of seeds to feed the birds and small animals in the winter.

As for Christmas, that I heard also was a Pagan solstice holiday first, and with the rise of Catholisism and the Vatican, they claimed the date as religious, being that in the bible "there will be no false gods". The Vatican was outraged that the Pagans were celebrating a holiday that wasn't Catholic, so they took the day for there own.
I was also told Jesus was born sometime in February.

I am not holding these statements as facts, just throwing in ideas.

[shartley]

Originally posted by The Frymarker
I may be wrong, but I was informed that "Christmas Trees" were decorated in the winter with cranberries, popcorn and bells of seeds to feed the birds and small animals in the winter.

As for Christmas, that I heard also was a Pagan solstice holiday first, and with the rise of Catholisism and the Vatican, they claimed the date as religious, being that in the bible "there will be no false gods". The Vatican was outraged that the Pagans were celebrating a holiday that wasn't Catholic, so they took the day for there own.
I was also told Jesus was born sometime in February.

I am not holding these statements as facts, just throwing in ideas.
Yes, what you say is not wrong. It is not the whole story either though.

As for your Christmas Tree part, that is "a" reason and purpose of the tree and its decorations, but not "the" reason.

All of the traditions have been so intermixed and intertwined that it is often hard to tell where one begins or one ends... or the original purpose all together.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by shartley

Very true. But because it is funded with Tax Dollars and controlled wholly by the Government, it is a Church and State issue.

The US Postal Service does not receive one penny of tax money. They are required by law to be self supporting. This is the reason for all of the stamp hikes as of late. The USPS has been losing business to UPS, Fed Ex, and the other parcel carriers. Have you noticed how your local post office is looking more and more like a mini-mart. They are doing everything they can to make a buck. Next up will be coffee donuts. Late, they will be opening the gun shop.:p ;)

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by RetroEclipseMan
I'm not sure if you were just bringing up a point or what not and I am not flaming you but if you say that we shouldn't celebrate MLK Day because he is was a minister(btw, already been said why we actually celebrate that day) then technically the government shoudln't recognize Christmas as a national holiday then. Now I personally could care less about the whole issue. It's not like anyone is forcing me to buy those stamps or anything.
Yes, I was only bringing up a point and I think Sam understands, based on his reply, that I'm only playing devil's advocate. I only commented that if Sam is as committed to the separation of Church and State as his post implies, I can logically conclude that we should not celebrate MLK Jr. day for the simple fact that he is a minister. At no time whatsoever did I say (nor do I believe) that we should NOT celebrate. I'm all for it!

As for the USPS, pretty ironic that they use FedEx to ship their stuff. That's why the USPS had to stop Sunday deliveries: FedEx doesn't deliver on Sundays!

[scarpa43]

Well since I started the "Christmas tree" talk, I will concede to those that are giving the origins of it.
I have always said that if someone knows more than me then I should listen and learn.

Concerning Christmas as a religious holiday, IMO it is basically the end of year push for merchandise sales.

[AcemanPB]

Originally posted by scarpa43
Well since I started the "Christmas tree" talk, I will concede to those that are giving the origins of it.
I have always said that if someone knows more than me then I should listen and learn.

Concerning Christmas as a religious holiday, IMO it is basically the end of year push for merchandise sales.

Well from what my history teacher tells me, the Christmas tree was first seen in the Middle Ages or sometime before then. Back then Europe was spreading Christianity and the missionary people would try to incorporate things from the pagans live into Christianity, to help to convert them. A group of missionaries walked up on to a tribe somewhere in Eastern Europe, and they were wrapping a tree in pig intestines and other parts from a pig. The missionaries saw this and when they tried to convert this tribe, they were like "oh yeah we decorate trees too..." And so the tradition of the Christmas tree began.... (in reality the tribe was wrapping the tree in pig parts to let them dry)

It's been a while since I've heard this one, and I'm not sure how true it is but my history teacher is sure that this is why... He also explained that the idea of Hell being a fiery place was spawned the same way. Which incorperated different tribes fascination and fear of fire...

Also Jesus wasn't really born on Christmas day. During the Middle ages they moved the holiday to December to pick peoples sprits up because those were usually the darker times of the year.

[shartley]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


The US Postal Service does not receive one penny of tax money. They are required by law to be self supporting. This is the reason for all of the stamp hikes as of late. The USPS has been losing business to UPS, Fed Ex, and the other parcel carriers. Have you noticed how your local post office is looking more and more like a mini-mart. They are doing everything they can to make a buck. Next up will be coffee donuts. Late, they will be opening the gun shop.:p ;)
HeeHee Look back and read my other posts, I already addressed that issue. They do not receive one penny of Tax Money DIRECTLY… but they do receive Tax Money by dealing DIRECTLY with other Government Agencies. And this is an admission by them. Again… go read my other post on the matter. ;)

As for them losing business to other carriers and losing money, take a look at their Annual Statements. Other businesses are expected to show a profit at SOME point, but not the USPS….. they run in the red.

Here is another thing that pisses me off about them…. You can’t use “their” mailboxes (that YOU, the customer have to buy and maintain) for anything BUT their mail. I.E. you can not make a flyer and deliver it to people’s mailboxes without PAYING the USPS for a permit and postage. If you don’t, you will be fined.

If Joe’s Restaurant took the time to MAKE the flyers, paid to have them printed, and then took the time to deliver it to my mailbox, I say all the power to him. It is not like SPAM in my e-mail box that cost them virtually nothing to send out. It actually takes initiative on the part of the business, and I applaud that. However, they don’t do a darn thing about the newspapers that get shoved next to my mailbox every day…. that I have told them (the newspaper people) NOT to deliver because I don’t want them.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by yeahthatsme
ok, heres the whole analagy:

terrorist are to muslimes as the KKK is to christianity.

your ignorance is astounding.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


your ignorance is astounding.

Yeah,
YeahThatsMe! It is spelled Muslims, not Muslimes! Jeesh!;) :p

[FactsOfLife]

I think Muslimes are a weird fruit cross between mushrooms and limes....

evil tasting from what I've heard too....

[tommyd46290]

Originally posted by irbodden
Stupidity..

Nothing wrong with Muslims, those terrorists are NOT 'muslims'.

exactly. they are extremist that think they are fighting for a cause that is worthy of their lives and the lives of others. Their religion (Islam) stricly FORBIDS the killing of innocents (i.e. unarmed men, women children) a true muslim would not condone to cut down a tree. That is their way of thinking. These "terrorists" are apparently not muslims but some ruthless branch of "islamic-type" people. There is nothing wrong with muslims. Their religion is virtually identical in belief systems to christians and jews. I see no problem with muslims. But "one bad apple ruins the bunch" or soemthing like that. I think you get what I mean. I didn't read all of the posts either so if this has allready been said just tell me and i'll edit.