2,500 Shots off a Mag; efficiency upgrades?

[speedyejl]

Well ok I heard something over at PBN that AGD was doing some testing and that they were able to get roughly over 2,500 from a LX Retromag. I'm highly inclined not to believe this, but why not let me post it. Can someone verfy this?



Originally posted by cypres0099

I talked to an AGD tech in January and from what he said I would hold on to my mag. They were testing efficiency upgrades for level 10. He said with a 68 45 tank one of thier guys dumped a hopper and 13 pods with 1000 psi left.

Sounds good to me. :)

[Kevmaster]

id call that 100% BS. thats WAY MORE than any other marker out there can get off a 68-45

[Xen]

LOL try more like 900 off a 68/4500 :)

[Hexis]

Maybe it was a 68cubic foot tank.

[Peach]

LOL HEXIS!

[_Spork_1]

vikings can get 2000+ off a 68/45

i get 1200 off my classic lvl 10 68/45

my mag stops shooting fully at 700 psi, so...

[Kevmaster]

still, thats 500 more shots off a tank than one of the most efficient guns out there.

AGDs good. but not THAT good

[j.t.]

If efficiency upgrades are in the works then AGD certainly hasnt told AO about it... have they?:confused:

[Kevmaster]

they are trying to increase the efficiency, but they havnt doubled it and to my knowledge havnt even had much success yet

[FreshmanBob]

Finally! That's the only thing I don't like about my mag that can't be fixed!

[ddan_p]

That was me who posted that, well obviously...:)

I heard this at Kick'n 2003 in Springfield. Brian Terry (agd tech) was there playing with Rough'n Ready.

We started talking a looked at his Xmag you know the usual. Then I asked him if there was anything exciting happening at AGD, and he said he was working on the efficiency upgrades.

Obviously I was curious. I asked him how it was going and he said they have a prototype in an Xmag. He said they tried it out the other day and got 13 pods with about 1000 psi.

Now given small indulgences, perphaps misreading guages, and Level 10 needing about 700 psi, the actual results might be a bit more believeable.

13 pods x 150 = 1950
Hopper 170
2100

I'm thinking the actual results may have been closer to 2000.

That's what was said... unless this is all some kind of elaborate hoax :confused:

[Cypres0099]

Sorry, a friend logged in on my computer. So it wasn't obviously me. ;)

That above post is mine.

[Kevmaster]

that story is just too outlandish to believe. thats a 1.5-1.7x increase in efficiency. However, if its true, id crap my pants...just after i bought my XMag

[cledford]

Originally posted by _Spork_1
vikings can get 2000+ off a 68/45

i get 1200 off my classic lvl 10 68/45

my mag stops shooting fully at 700 psi, so...

Yeah, maybe with the bolt in upside down and not shooting paint. Honestly, I had a Viking and it did not get 2000+ off a case of paint - although it still did have the best gas milage of any marker I've owned.

-calvin

[FreshmanBob]

Dude, he's probably just making fun of ethan from pro paintball about their new matrix.

[speedyejl]

Fair enough. My Impulse can get about 1500shots off my 45/45. Which translates into 2000 from a 68/45. I am shooting at 250fps (indoor fields) so that makes a difference but I figure only around 200shots tops.

Eff really is the only thing which holds mags back from being perfect. It would be tottally awsome for something like that.

[FalconGuy016]

Man this is the first time ive really felt bad about my mag :)

[_Spork_1]

Originally posted by cledford


Yeah, maybe with the bolt in upside down and not shooting paint. Honestly, I had a Viking and it did not get 2000+ off a case of paint - although it still did have the best gas milage of any marker I've owned.

-calvin

was it broken in? i've seen plenty vikings get 1800 and more

most pods i have are 140, and they don't even hold that many

[speedyejl]

Yea to get 140rnds in a pod you have to use some force.

[AlabamaMan]

i can get 160 rounds into my redz pods. It's a little trippy when you fill 3 pods off a 500 round bag and only have twenty left over.

[PsychoBaller]

Allen Paintball Products - 157 Magnum Pods - hold roughly 160-170ish, and these are tough mofo's for pods... thick black shells.

Anyways.... I wish my SFL with LX got more than 1000 off a 68/4500..... sigh....

~da baller

[Havoc_online]

as I've said many times before.

RT/Emag with LX off a 68/4500 should be getting around 1,200 shots.

[speedyejl]

1,200 is pushing it... 900-1000 is much more reasonable.

[paintster14]

Vikings and ex's have the best efficency of anymarker i have yet to see stock off of a 68/45 they should get around 1700 off of a 68/45 and thats running stock brand new at 180 psi but once broken in and brought down to around teh 110 psi range they should get around 2700 off of the 68/45 and if the reg gets really broken in and gun can get down to 90 psi operating which is possible it can get up to 3400 shots off of a 68/45 in theory so to me with Tom Kaye doing work this mag efficency doesnt sound to far fetched im sure in some way he will make it work.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by paintster14
Vikings and ex's have the best efficency of anymarker i have yet to see stock off of a 68/45 they should get around 1700 off of a 68/45 and thats running stock brand new at 180 psi but once broken in and brought down to around teh 110 psi range they should get around 2700 off of the 68/45 and if the reg gets really broken in and gun can get down to 90 psi operating which is possible it can get up to 3400 shots off of a 68/45 in theory so to me with Tom Kaye doing work this mag efficency doesnt sound to far fetched im sure in some way he will make it work.

"What you've just said is one of the most insainely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling incohearent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul."

:D :D :D

[madmatt151]

I love that movie and that scene! Bravo!

[paintster14]

call aka and ask them about the gun efficiency im telling you what i was told directly from the company and on top of that do the math for it and youll see its not too far off.

[speedyejl]

AKALMP also says that their Javalin barrel will shoot further than other barrels.

[paintster14]

people also say closed bolt shoots farther the open?do the math on it seriously im saying the gun operating psi at 180,110,and 90 not the LPR the whole marker.In a 68/45 tank you have 4500 psi per cubic inch,you have 68cu inches therefor its 68x4500=306000 which divided by 180(operating psi) gives you 1700 shots now like i said this is in theory with perfect paint match etc, do the same 68x4500 and divide by the operating psi and it will give you an estimate +/- some on how many shots you should get and by doing this it gave me almost the exact same numbers that AKA did at the AKA Booth at the 01 and 02 World Cup.

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by speedyejl
1,200 is pushing it... 900-1000 is much more reasonable.

I'm not guessing I'm telling you. That's with a reasonable input(850). chrono'd @ 295. a good paint/barrel match. measure shooting paint, more air is used when your dry firing.

[speedyejl]

O wow, omg wow. Your formula takes no account for the volume of air usess. I've put my dwell all the way up to 9ms and I've lowered my inline to 80psi on my Impulse (this was before my LPR so the solinoid was also at 80psi) and it shot 290fps. Guess what my eff was 600 balls from a 68/45!! Acording to your formula I should have been getting 3,825 balls, and belive me I wasn't, I could actually see the dial on my tanks gauge move.

If you want a different perspective a stock Spyder (lets say a Shutter) would get 382 balls from a 68/45. Which is just more bs, in reality they get more around 1000.

[speedyejl]

Ok fair enough Havoc, I didn't relize that the back preassure from balls had an effect on air ussage.

[paintster14]

once again for illiterate people who cant read i said in theory if you dont believe me go call or email AKA yourself.

[speedyejl]

A theory is a proved hypothesis. Obviosuly your formula wasn't even proved because AKALMP gave you numbers which were different than your hypothesis. So its not even a theory, its a disproven hypothesis.

[Kevmaster]

i restate what speedy said:
AKA also claims their barrel shoots further than other barrels

[cledford]

AKA also claims that closed bolt guns shoot further and more accurately then open bolt.

-Calvin

[FreshmanBob]

Originally posted by paintster14
people also say closed bolt shoots farther the open?do the math on it seriously im saying the gun operating psi at 180,110,and 90 not the LPR the whole marker.In a 68/45 tank you have 4500 psi per cubic inch,you have 68cu inches therefor its 68x4500=306000 which divided by 180(operating psi) gives you 1700 shots now like i said this is in theory with perfect paint match etc, do the same 68x4500 and divide by the operating psi and it will give you an estimate +/- some on how many shots you should get and by doing this it gave me almost the exact same numbers that AKA did at the AKA Booth at the 01 and 02 World Cup.

Actually this theory does work. It's just that as you lower your pressure, your FPS goes down too, so sure you can fire off 3000+ off a 68/45 but your balls might only go 3 or 4 feet.

EDIT: If you lower the pressure of a gun, you need to use a higher volume of gas. If you don't, then your FPS goes down.

[speedyejl]

Haha, no

I have chronoed my Impulse running at 80psi with a dwell of 20beeps (9ms, its the highest that a normal board will allow one to go) at 290fps.

[speedyejl]

Forgot to mention that I was getting eff like
400balls from my 45/45 which is arounds 600 for a 68/45

[pito189]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
as I've said many times before.

RT/Emag with LX off a 68/4500 should be getting around 1,200 shots.

I will second that. I run mine around 650 though, I wonder how many shoots I can get off a cold 4500 tank?:confused: It would be interesting to test it one day.

[paintster14]

yea aka says it along with WGP,smart parts,and any other company who makes a closed bolt gun,its a marketing ploy i know just as well as anyone closed and open shoot the same its a marketing ploy and as for the theory i posted does work in theory like the dude said but velocity may not be up to par?

[speedyejl]

Actually Smart Parts and WGP advertise their guns as being closed bolt. Not being more acurate or having better distance because of it.

[paintster14]

WGP goes on and on bout closed bolt smart parts doesnt really tho

[speedyejl]

Well Smart Parts does likes to say the Shocker is closed bolt. That was the old shockers only selling point.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by speedyejl
Well Smart Parts does likes to say the Shocker is closed bolt. That was the old shockers only selling point.



:D :D hehe :D :D

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by speedyejl
Actually Smart Parts and WGP advertise their guns as being closed bolt. Not being more acurate or having better distance because of it.

dont remember off the top of my head(I'm not saying your wrong), but I've been reading some of the newer ads of markers(dont remember what type) that boast "true closed bolt accuracy" :rolleyes: I'll try and dig up something.

[Jack & Coke]

Where do you think the mag can improve in efficiency?

Fiddle with the pressure/volume ratio?

Better bolt/breech seal?

I wonder what percentage of gas is wasted (i.e. not pushing the ball)? How much goes back up the feed tube?

What do you think?

[mykroft]

Upping the operating pressure does improve efficiency on a mag, compare the Smartvalve to a stock Mag, 10% lower pressure, 10% lower efficiency. Dump chamber guns are inefficient compared to poppet valve guns (Shocker, Matrix and Mag are the only common dump-chamber designs, average to horrible efficiency).

A well broken in Viking or Excal might hit 2400 rounds under the best circumstances, 2700 is smoking crack. You can get a Cocker up there too. 2000-2200 is a more realistic expectation for a Viking or Excal after breakin.

[Havoc_online]

pressure/volume ratio

[Kevmaster]

yeh, when you are doing mods and such to the valve, you can increase pressure and lower volume and decrease pressure and increase volume. at some point (as shown below) there is a happy most efficient point. you just have to find it

http://www.samuraiforce.net/images/efficiency.gif
(note: the pressure numbers are a little off for the mag. I made this for the Rainmaker)

[Paintballer86]

Originally posted by speedyejl
O wow, omg wow. Your formula takes no account for the volume of air usess. I've put my dwell all the way up to 9ms and I've lowered my inline to 80psi on my Impulse (this was before my LPR so the solinoid was also at 80psi) and it shot 290fps. Guess what my eff was 600 balls from a 68/45!! Acording to your formula I should have been getting 3,825 balls, and belive me I wasn't, I could actually see the dial on my tanks gauge move.

If you want a different perspective a stock Spyder (lets say a Shutter) would get 382 balls from a 68/45. Which is just more bs, in reality they get more around 1000.
BURN ON paintster14

[FreshmanBob]

Originally posted by speedyejl
Haha, no

I have chronoed my Impulse running at 80psi with a dwell of 20beeps (9ms, its the highest that a normal board will allow one to go) at 290fps.

You misunderstood me. I said you need to increase the volume to get it back up to FPS, and YOU DID. If you leave the volume (dwell controls the volume of gas used) as the same as you do on twice the pressure, you'll get much less velocity.

[speedyejl]

I saw your edit but I wasn't really sure what you meant since you didn't mention efficeny going down with the volume going down. Ok fair enough

[FreshmanBob]

cool cool

[la690]

Originally posted by Kevmaster


"What you've just said is one of the most insainely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling incohearent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul."

:D :D :D
whats that from?