Chris Lasoya banned from Pan-Am [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

DyNasTy

03-13-2003, 12:30 AM

"The MSTS finals were held at the Denver, Colorado USA, National Western, Indoor complex, November 23-24. Wayde Samuel was the last player of the Yarddog team facing four of the opponents. Chris Lasoya, bunkered Wayde. His move was very good, but it was not necessary to shoot him twelve times in the head. As a result, Wayde was knocked out cold and was unresponsive. Paramedics deemed it necessary to have him ambulanced to the hospital. He was cat scanned etc.. and released 7 hours later, having suffered a concussion.

Lasoya claimed he only pulled the trigger 6 or so times while admitting he put 12 balls onto Wayde. It does not matter whether he pulled the trigger 12 times, trigger bounce occured, the marker was set on burst mode
illegally, or there was a malfunction, pulling the trigger 6 times to shoot someone in the head deliberately is inexcusable. A player, especially a professional level player such as Lasoya with years of experience, is
responsible for being in control of the marker, marker settings, and particularly of his trigger finger. There is no excuse for putting that many balls onto someone's head or forehead, at point blank range.

I think this is unacceptable paintball. It is not cool, not fun, hurts the sport and does not impress me one bit. The high rates of fire and this kind of pointblank headshot shooting or any other kind of punishment bunkering is not going to attract recreational paintball players. It does
nothing but put players at risk for serious injury, blindness in one or both eyes should a goggle system be dislodged or possibly even death.

It is time to change the rules and get rid of Prima Donnas that think punishment bunkering is a cool thing to do. Shouldn't we, as industry leaders work to protect the industry from players like LaSoya, who are truly no good for the future of paintball? Here is the kicker, LaSoya has been banned "for life" from the Pan Am and the WPF (when the WPF was run by Jim Lively with Bill Bryant as the director of judging). Banned for similar unacceptable behavior. Wayne Samuel runs the largest paintball field in
Colorado. He and myself also sponsor one of the oldest teams in the country, the Yarddogs. Wayne has informed the MSTS that the Yarddogs will not play in next years MSTS if LaSoya is allowed in the tournament."

I think this is just pure BS, I know when you go to bunker someone in a tournament your not gonna fire 1 shot, but you could stop yourself after the third or fourth ball.

heres my questions..
What is he doing at the Pan-Am
What was he thinking??

Thought some pple might be interested in this

yeahthatsme

03-13-2003, 12:54 AM

i agree man, i also think money should be pulled as a prize, thats one of the reasons all these things occure, its greed plain and simple.

btw, do you play for team dynast? or did you just like the name?

WARPED1

03-13-2003, 12:57 AM

Lasoya=cheating bastard.

ubooze

03-13-2003, 01:10 AM

Wow, I never knew HE would act so improperly.

I had a great amount of respect for Lasoya, but after this event, it has dropped.

He is very highly sponsored, but no company has taken a look at THIS situation I believe.

I think that he would and should be baned for a long while so that he can learn the functions on his markewr and get a fell for the trigger.:rolleyes:

ntn4502

03-13-2003, 01:18 AM

yet another higher-up in paintball to tarnish the sport that we play:rolleyes:

jwren00

03-13-2003, 01:20 AM

i used to go to warped sportz in denver a long time ago to get my tank filled, he ran that shop, he was not a very nice guy back then either. Now he works for rocky mountain paintball and i've played with him at their field a few times, he is not a fair player to say the least...

PsychoBaller

03-13-2003, 01:32 AM

shave the guys head to see how many welts could be detected... but even so.... that is inexcusable behavior..... 12 shots to the head.... jesus.......

High End players should know better than that. I'm happy with the decision to ban him.

~da baller

TheBigRaguPB4L

03-13-2003, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by PsychoBaller

High End players should know better than that. I'm happy with the decision to ban him.

~da baller

Yeah cause he won't be playing in a few weeks. Seems to me that the higher up "pro's" do/say whatever they want with no reprecussions. Big deal, they banned him. Not like he can't go somewhere else and do whatever he pleases. There are plenty of other leagues to play. For once i would love to see a one of the company's sponsering them take some action against to quell such childish occurances. Not that it'll happen anytime soon.

Cryer

03-13-2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
For once i would love to see a one of the company's sponsering them take some action against to quell such childish occurances. Not that it'll happen anytime soon.

JT vs. Jeremy Salm after the 2k2 World Cup debacle...
(he can never play for another team sponsored by any BrassEagle company like JT or Viewloader)

But I do agree with you whole-heartedly. A 'rogue' player's entire sponsorship should be pulled (if not indefinately, at least until he/she makes a visible effort to reform).

shadow462

03-13-2003, 02:16 AM

This, my friends, is one of the reasons paintball is not TV ready. As far as his ban from the PanAm, good riddance. Hopefully other tourny producers will follow suit. It is, however, very good to see people banding together AGAINST his behavior, rather than blindly forgiving it (as is the case with many other sports celebrities). I'm glad people recognize how thin the ice under our sport really is. Unfortunately this was perpetrated by one of the most prevalent paintball players in the world, and will more than likely be a very big news story, at least in our circle of the world. Yet another shadow cast, hopefully we can shine beyond it. Mr. Lasoya, shame on you. May you never play paintball again.

Another discussion this will likely recussitate is the oft forgotten speed limit. Would Lasoya have gotten off 12 shots if his gun were capped at a more reasonable level? If it were capped at 13 (the most frequently used number for a proposed cap) those 12 shots would have taken at least a full second. In paintball time, that's quite a stretch, and it's likely all 12 of them wouldn't have happened. Would this have solved the problem of Lasoya overshooting? No. But would it hae increased the safety level and reduced the damage inflicted? Yes. It's a pro and con discussion that's tainted by the industry's influence over tournament producers. But I digress...

Another dark day for paintball is upon us. It is up to every one of us to make it right, and to personally vow to never do anything this awfully reckless. And keep in mind, friends: whether you're laying into a guy's head with 12 point blank shots, picking off opponents from the sidelines, or "just wiping"... they're all the same rules, and they all hurt the sport. We must play with honor if we want paintball to be more than a 20 year flash in the pan, because there are plenty of people who would be glad to ban the sport for any reason they can dig up. Let's not give them any help.

<i> "To tell others that / it is a rumor / will not do. / When your own heart asks / how will you respond? " ~ ancient japanese poem

Tyger

03-13-2003, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by Cryer
JT vs. Jeremy Salm after the 2k2 World Cup debacle...
(he can never play for another team sponsored by any BrassEagle company like JT or Viewloader)

Enter the cynic.

Like that'll happen. I guarantee that he'll be playing for a JT team in a year or two. Hell, he was AT the NPPL Huntington Beach as a COACH.

I'm a cynic, until the players get roped in, thye'll do what they want, when they want, becasue they can. It's that simple.

My solution is to not give him money, or tell his sponsors that I won't give them my money by buying the products he uses. If enough people do this, you'll be amazed how fast they clean up...

-Tyger

Mighty Mike

03-13-2003, 03:11 AM

I don't know who Chris Lasoya is or which team he plays for but shame on his team, sponsors, and league for letting this punk continue to play paintball professionally. It makes me so furious reading the vicious actions of Chris Lasoya. I hope the kid who was injured is taking legal actions against him. I pray one day Mr. Lasoya and I cross paths so I can tell him how much disrespect I have for him.

TheJester

03-13-2003, 06:28 AM

man, that's gotta hurt, 6 to the body from a normal range kinda hurts where you just kinda walk off the feild and sit down and re-gain your strength. 12 to the head at point blank!!!! damn, no wonder the guy suffered a concusion

manike

03-13-2003, 06:46 AM

Rumours and embellishments make me sick. Just because something gets printed all of a sudden it's fact?

Who are you guys to slate Chris just on the basis of one other person's views? Maybe you should get both sides of the story before preaching about it. Next time I see Chris I'll get his side. Notice how the person writing that piece is affiliated with the guy that got shot. So it's not exactly an unbiased representative giving a report now is it?

When this story first broke it was 5 hits, and the guy was ok but felt concussed (I do after just one head hit!) and so went to get checked. Chris was apparently immediately sorry and trying to help the guy.

Now I agree 5 hits is way too much, and I am by no means condoning that, but there may be other circumstances and things we don't know, and Chris is the fastest person on the trigger that I have EVER seen. In the heat of a game, with the adrenalin flowing and with a fast finger I've seen lots of people pull 5-6 shots in a bunkering move, especially if the person they are shooting at shoots back or swings to fire.

I don't know the facts for sure, but nor do you guys. You just seem to be on a witch hunt :mad:

Chris is a friend of mine, he can get het up on the field and plays on the edge, but he is also a nice guy who is a phenomenal ambassador for the sport for kids and people that take the time to want to talk to him (and don't just hate him based upon what they have read or 'heard' :rolleyes: . When you've seen him give signatures and equipment to young kids, and take the time to talk to old couples explaining what paintball is about and what it means to be a paintballer, you will appreciate the whole person that is Chris Lasoya.

He gives a huge amount back. Yes he screws up now and then, but I for one DO NOT think paintball would be a better place without him.

shartley

03-13-2003, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by manike
Rumours and embellishments make me sick. Just because something gets printed all of a sudden it's fact?

Who are you guys to slate Chris just on the basis of one other person's views? Maybe you should get both sides of the story before preaching about it. Next time I see Chris I'll get his side. Notice how the person writing that piece is affiliated with the guy that got shot. So it's not exactly an unbiased representative giving a report now is it?

When this story first broke it was 5 hits, and the guy was ok but felt concussed (I do after just one head hit!) and so went to get checked. Chris was apparently immediately sorry and trying to help the guy.

Now I agree 5 hits is way too much, and I am by no means condoning that, but there may be other circumstances and things we don't know, and Chris is the fastest person on the trigger that I have EVER seen. In the heat of a game, with the adrenalin flowing and with a fast finger I've seen lots of people pull 5-6 shots in a bunkering move, especially if the person they are shooting at shoots back or swings to fire.

I don't know the facts for sure, but nor do you guys. You just seem to be on a witch hunt :mad:

Chris is a friend of mine, he can get het up on the field and plays on the edge, but he is also a nice guy who is a phenomenal ambassador for the sport for kids and people that take the time to want to talk to him (and don't just hate him based upon what they have read or 'heard' :rolleyes: . When you've seen him give signatures and equipment to young kids, and take the time to talk to old couples explaining what paintball is about and what it means to be a paintballer, you will appreciate the whole person that is Chris Lasoya.

He gives a huge amount back. Yes he screws up now and then, but I for one DO NOT think paintball would be a better place without him. After thinking about it more I changed my post. It is not a reversal of views but a clarification of them.

How nice a player is, or how liked he is, does not excuse the infraction….. with that said, overshooting does happen, and even unintentionally. This does not excuse the action either, but it means that you should not vilify a person for an indiscretion that is a common part of the game and can be done without ill intent… which very well may have been the case here.

Accident also happen. The overshooting would still be overshooting if the other player had not been knocked out. And the penalties for gross overshooting should have been the same, whether they hit him in the head or in the back/chest. It would send a strong message that you must control your fire. Heck even most Rec Fields have a 3-5 ball rule to help eliminate overshooting. Why should be expect anything less for the “Pros”? Simply put, we should not.

No, Chris is not an evil person to be forced out of the sport. But he also should not be cut any slack for his actual actions.

I would like to read a totally unbiased article on this matter.

manike

03-13-2003, 07:15 AM

Sam I don't know if your post was a general one or aimed directly at me, but just in case you missed it...

Originally posted by manike
Now I agree 5 hits is way too much, and I am by no means condoning that

Originally posted by manike
Yes he screws up

Oh and EVERYBODY is accountable for their actions on the paintball field in my book, not just once they reach a certain level.

Originally posted by shartley
I would like to see an unbiased article on this matter, not written by an associate of the “victim” or refuted by a friend of the one being accused. And even so, good people sometimes make mistakes. That does not make them “bad” people. But you can’t just brush aside the wrong doing JUST because they are “good” people. And that does not mean they should not be punished for their actions either.

I agree completely :)

shartley

03-13-2003, 07:24 AM

LOL You were typing while I was re-typing. ;) No, I was not aiming anything directly at you but used your post as a springboard. If you read what I wrote in my “edit” it is much more clear. Which is why I edited it. :)

boomerfoxtrot

03-13-2003, 08:03 AM

.. my thoughts...

I think people are over reacting...... in the pro levels your average shoots per second are 14+ ..... and guys shoot that with out thinking... it's part of being a pro...

The last 3 man I was in, I put TWO at point blank range into a guys head, and you know what..... the reffs couldn't find paint, so I was out and he got the pull and hang....

Why do we question this when someone get's knocked out... nothing would have been said if he wasn't out cold... but even so, I don't blame Chris... sure he shot him 15 times, but there is NOTHING in the rule book about over shooting!
NOTHING....

hurting the sport? how so? if they are shooting to fast and hard get the fps dropped 190-180 or something, b/c this stuff happens, and it happens within seconds!

I haven't seen a video of this event, but unless he just stood there for 5 seconds shooting the poor guy in the head then I have no problem...

bunkering is part of the game, if you don't like this style of play, don't play the tournys.... b/c guys are out to win, and will do so by all means possible...

cledford

03-13-2003, 09:11 AM

As one of, if not the highest sponsored pros there is, one would assume he has some sort of control of his actions. This is regardless of the heat of the battle. If I'd done the same thing (either 12 or 5 to someones head) I'd have been facing: banishment from the field, a butt kicking by EVERYONE present for being stupid and dangerous, and possible legal action. It is for certain I’d be held accountable in a similar situation.

Simon's opinion carries a lot of weight with me and I'm willing to cut Chris the benefit of the doubt on the issue as to whether he *intended* to do this. On the other hand he(Manike) is one of the few I've ever seen write something positive about Chris on these boards. That having been said I'd like to hear Chris's side of the story AND the rendition of a 3rd party. In either case (as others have stated) he still gets held accountable. Intent and how great (or not great you might be) you are on or off the field doesn't excuse you from the results of being stupid.

I see this as another case of a pro not being aware of how his actions represent the sport that pays his living. To me that is like biting the hand that feeds. I have to wonder as to the overall intelligence of some of these people.

On to issue of BPS and short, light triggers. To anyone who wants to use this as an excuse - you are way off base. This issue isn't someone running into a rope of paint being fired down a lane and already in the air. During a bunker move you know precisely when to start *pulling* the trigger. If your trigger is so light and short you can't control it any longer then you're gun is malfunctioning and is UNSAFE. This is the first time I've ever been in favor of minimum trigger standards but maybe it's time. I'd say that first though REAL ENFORCEMENT of the overshooting/bonus-ball rule needs to go into effect, along with REAL ENFORCEMENT of "playing on" penalties. There wouldn’t be a need for all of the over shooting if it weren’t for the established behavior of "playing until I'm pulled" in the first place. In the second, this is a sport that requires a certain level of safety consciousness at all times. If the *pro* level is disregarding this because of the MONEY involved (winning the PRIZE is clouding the JUDGEMENT of the players) then I'm all for banning THAT (as in professional paintball). Unlike other professional sports, I don't enjoy watching paintball, I enjoy playing it! That is how it started for me and everything we now have (innovation, new products, magazines, tournaments) existed a LONG TIME before people got paid to play the game. I'm sure that paintball would do JUST fine without the pros - as paintball is a sport (like golf) that lends more enjoyment to participation then viewing.

-Calvin

ogre55

03-13-2003, 09:29 AM

This incident happened in Novemeber of last year. We discussed it back then and the views were just about the same. However, I distincly remember that in the two articles that I read about the incident (both written by "neutral" publications) the player LaSoya hit actually lost consciousness.

I tried to run a quick search to find the old thread, but I could not find it. But that thread had links to the articles.

Originally posted by Tyger

Like that'll happen. I guarantee that he'll be playing for a JT team in a year or two. Hell, he was AT the NPPL Huntington Beach as a COACH.

And I had such high hopes for the Super 7. I heard it was well run and that the paintball was very clean (compared to last season). The fact that Salm was allowed to participate IN ANY WAY with the NPPL while he is officially banned, just makes me mad I know that the ban was from playing and not from couching, but it still just pisses me off.

This should also be indicative of just how sorry he really is for the events that occured at WC.

Ogre

cphilip

03-13-2003, 09:37 AM

Hmmm...I am willing to wait and get to the bottom of this. Sounds like there is reason to do that enough here. Someone is searching out the facts I assume? Please post em when you know them and can provide some documentation to back them up.

manike

03-13-2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by ogre55
And I had such high hopes for the Super 7. I heard it was well run and that the paintball was very clean (compared to last season). The fact that Salm was allowed to participate IN ANY WAY with the NPPL while he is officially banned, just makes me mad I know that the ban was from playing and not from couching, but it still just pisses me off.

This should also be indicative of just how sorry he really is for the events that occured at WC.

I'm not sure but this may be a political thing...

Jerry Braun and the PSP banned him, and it was Jerry's team that the incident was against. It may be that the NPPL banned him also as part of the PSP event, but I am not sure...

The new NPPL and new PSP are both different from when the incident happened. Maybe both should ban him? (maybe he is banned from playing in both, but not from supporting teams?)

ogre55

03-13-2003, 09:45 AM

I posited the question of whether Salm was banned from both the NPPL and the PSP a little while ago and no one really had an answer. Considering that the Super 7 is now going and the PSP season is fast approaching, I think this question needs to be answered quick.

Ogre

manike

03-13-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by cphilip
Hmmm...I am willing to wait and get to the bottom of this. Sounds like there is reason to do that enough here. Someone is searching out the facts I assume? Please post em when you know them and can provide some documentation to back them up.

I'm trying to find some of the other articles that were written about it, but not with a lot of luck :confused:

But in that search I have found some other information... None of this is hard fact. There are some rumours of a video and that I would like to see!

There has been a post on PBN by one of Wayde's team mates saying that as Chris bunkered Wayde they were both shooting at each other. And that Wayde went to put his 'gun down'? :confused: which is when Chris was shooting him in the head. He may have been trying to put the gun down because he already felt concussed?

I'm not sure how to read that... I've seen many bunker moves where one guy shot back after being hit and so both keep shooting until until they signal they are out. Both sides are at fault if they just kept shooting at each other. And putting your gun down, definitely isn't a signal for being out. Gun up, or hand up, or hand on the head is.

It's one reason why pro's shoot for the goggles, to stop other shooting back or trying to pretend they didn't know they were hit. It's unfortunately come about because so many people play on or swing on the guy that just shot them :(

I don't know but am guessing Chris went and bunkered the guy, who shot back, so they had at each other, and Chris's temper flared and he went over the top. Just a guess though.

Quiet

03-13-2003, 12:00 PM

This is all hearsay.

I think I'll withhold my opinion until I can read something from both of the parties involved or see this mythical video.

I am curious though...

jwren00

03-13-2003, 12:05 PM

is there anybody else from colorado that knows more about this? I don't play in the msts so i dont know much about his tournament play, i've only played with him at the field. surely there must be someone that plays in the msts that posts on here, probably even someone that was actually at the finals.

graycie

03-13-2003, 12:05 PM

umm......i thought when he was banned from the GWS back in 1999 he would of automatically been banned for the PanAm. I guess history repeats itself IF that situation is similar to how he got banned in the first place.

ShooterJM

03-13-2003, 01:10 PM

Hey. I'm not gonna make a judgement until the facts are in.

What I know about Chris Lasoya:

Off field: Nice guy, helped me get good equipment, taught me how to fix little things, helped me go to my first tourny.

On field: cough....well. yeah... not the best.

luke

03-13-2003, 02:22 PM

To be band for one infraction seems a little extreme to me.....

Hey Manike why not just call/email Chris and ask him about it, or even better ask him to come here and comment on it personally. I doubt the story is as bad as was first posted.

Wc Keep

03-13-2003, 02:29 PM

shooter jm what do you mean about exageration etc etc etc?

WARPED1

03-13-2003, 02:31 PM

I met Lasoya off field at the '01 Cup, he was a pompus doofus, I have no on field experiences worth noting however.

yeahthatsme

03-13-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by manike
Rumours and embellishments make me sick. Just because something gets printed all of a sudden it's fact?

Who are you guys to slate Chris just on the basis of one other person's views? Maybe you should get both sides of the story before preaching about it. Next time I see Chris I'll get his side. Notice how the person writing that piece is affiliated with the guy that got shot. So it's not exactly an unbiased representative giving a report now is it?

When this story first broke it was 5 hits, and the guy was ok but felt concussed (I do after just one head hit!) and so went to get checked. Chris was apparently immediately sorry and trying to help the guy.

Now I agree 5 hits is way too much, and I am by no means condoning that, but there may be other circumstances and things we don't know, and Chris is the fastest person on the trigger that I have EVER seen. In the heat of a game, with the adrenalin flowing and with a fast finger I've seen lots of people pull 5-6 shots in a bunkering move, especially if the person they are shooting at shoots back or swings to fire.

I don't know the facts for sure, but nor do you guys. You just seem to be on a witch hunt :mad:

Chris is a friend of mine, he can get het up on the field and plays on the edge, but he is also a nice guy who is a phenomenal ambassador for the sport for kids and people that take the time to want to talk to him (and don't just hate him based upon what they have read or 'heard' :rolleyes: . When you've seen him give signatures and equipment to young kids, and take the time to talk to old couples explaining what paintball is about and what it means to be a paintballer, you will appreciate the whole person that is Chris Lasoya.

He gives a huge amount back. Yes he screws up now and then, but I for one DO NOT think paintball would be a better place without him.

if hes ok by manike, hes ok bye me.

but as shartley said, no matter how nice somebody is, its no excuse for breaking the rules. i guess i'll have to meet him before i pass a final judgement..maybe he'll be at one of the nppl/psp chicago events...

ShooterJM

03-13-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Wc Keep
shooter jm what do you mean about exageration etc etc etc?

PM'd ya.

FalconGuy016

03-13-2003, 03:39 PM

and this is the 6 million dollar man... the most sponsored paintball player ever

Crazy

03-13-2003, 04:05 PM

woopty doo, he can't play pan am.. what a loss, no more stock class or limited paint =(

irbodden

03-13-2003, 05:23 PM

What a loser. He is

dmonahan

03-13-2003, 06:15 PM

Crazy,

There are still both a stock class and a limited paint class in Pan-Am. In fact the stock class had been improved quit a bit this year. And the Young gun, 3 and 5 man are still limited paint. The only real change this year is the 10 man is now 7 and it is unlimited paint.

hitmanng

03-13-2003, 09:15 PM

I have never met Chris but have heard good and bad things. The bigger issue is that this should mean to all of us in paintball. I am sure this came up again due to the APG article recently published. We need to remember a few things.
1. Originally the manufacturers were going to limit the bps rate of markers to 13/sec to avoid these issues.
2. The question of what is a trigger pull again comes up. Did chris have control of his marker? I can tell you when I am bouncing a short trigger it is insane the paint I shoot and I am not good at it, let alone Chris.
3. Did Chris actually break any rules, and what were the penalties? I do not know him but I do know Simon and from what he is saying Chris is not a mean spirited person at heart. Was he really trying to give the guy a concussion? I doubt it, but I haven't seen any apologies printed either. He should have been punished by the rules in place at the game and rules should be refined in the area of overshooting. We need to have control of our markers and I think many people no longer do.
4. Chris should just be glad noone has pressed charges for assult. It would be justifiable if the story is true. It would also be the worst thing that could ever happen to paintball.
The just of it is we all need to be aware of what is happening in paintball. As the rate of fire increases so do the dangers. Mostly because it becomes easier for someone with little experiance to shoot faster and faster.
Tournement paintball needs to remember it is a game and there is an image being created of people cheating, wiping, shooting from off field, sideline coaching, etc.
Let's make sure that this remains a game we want our children to play.
Gordon

DyNasTy

03-13-2003, 09:32 PM

ok my views on the issue itself adn its replys.

Manike - True the article written was biased, but you being a "friend" of Chris doesnt make you just a little bit biased??

To the rest, Yes everyone makes mistakes, and with the adrenaline pumping its easy to over shoot. I mean if it means winning, your going to fire more than 1 shot to make sure your opponent is out of the game. But from what I read it was 12 shots, and In a bunker move 12 shots is a long time to pull off even for the fastest trigger. 6 at most would have been acceptable in my view.

I do not hate Chris Lasoya, or have I lost any respect for the man, he is a great paintball player, but needs to learn that just because he is pro, or to any pro, that they shoudlnt get over confident, and do things such as this, or what Salm did.

I mean thier are other players in the world, who are just as good if not better that could take thier spot on the team. They arent different from any other paintballer..

NastyPTA

03-13-2003, 10:25 PM

ok guys, i know i'm new here and unknown amongst all of you, but in "our" sport we are having serious issues with credibility, i'm sure these are not novel happenings to all of us, but when other major sports with whom there are sponsorships involved, especially on an individual basis, i.e. NASCAR, began searching for their credibility and perception as a major sport for the masses, they began by "cleaning" up the image of their sport...see: major penalties for rules infractions and even for athlete misconduct away from the playing of the sport.......i am not here to argue whether chris was right wrong or otherwise....just that if we truly want our sport accepted for what it is, there has to be accountability for our actions, all of us, each on our own as well as teams, and a sport as a whole

RTMAGBOY13

03-13-2003, 10:38 PM

ok why would u bunker someone and shoot them in the head 12 times! there is no excuse for that no matter what
1. you shouldnt even really be shooting people in the head he coulda shot him in the back or arm or something
2. 12 TIMES holy balls i would think like 2-3 is enough

Little Matt

03-13-2003, 11:37 PM

Frist I would like to ask, how do we know it was exactly 12 hits. I mean if he was shooting that fast how can you count them and if they busted or bouced how can you count those either. IF the guy got knocked out cold then I'm sure he doesn't remmber being hit, and if he does I'm sure he wasn't sitting there counting all the shots. If he was counting he had enuff time to jump out of the way or atleast do somethig.

At the Las Vegas Pan Am finals. I got shot in the back side of my neck one day and the next day had it happen again, which made me dizzy and sick to my stomach. But I didn't have to get shot 12 times in that spot for it to happen.

1 or 2 balls in a certain spot can do the same thing that these supposed 12 did.

So maybe the better question is, was this guy wearing proper protection while playing. Obviously paintball masks do not cover the top of your head but hats and beanies do, and can provide alittle protect to prevent paintballs from hitting tender parts of the head that can cuase these types of injuries.

Obviously things are going to happen, and when you play anytype of sport that involves anytype of contact wether its a person or a object there is a chance of injury.

I'm not trying to defend chris if he did over shoot but the "facts" are kinda flimsey and in my opinion exagerated.

Just my 2 cents...

goat

03-13-2003, 11:40 PM

Personally I feel that things happen on the field so fast that even with a slower marker it is pretty easy to overshoot someone, The numbers that are being thrown around so far range from 5 to 12.....5 I can see (hell I have done it and not realized it until I was leaving the field and saw the guy in the staging area...he was a little P.O.ed).. 12 is a little much, BUT that's the game of Speedball..fast paced, lots of paint in the air, and sometimes close quarters,
In my opinion...You gotta Pay To Play, I have taken my fair share of lumps and I accept it, Hell I got bunkered from behind (long story) and took three shots to my AHHEMM buddies, No greif after..I left it on the field, wish I could have left the pain on the field.

Besides, Who's to say that all of those shots came from Lasoya? I'm sure he had teamates backing him up and probably moving down the opposite tape line.
Goat

DyNasTy

03-14-2003, 01:15 AM

"Frist I would like to ask, how do we know it was exactly 12 hits. I mean if he was shooting that fast how can you count them and if they busted or bouced how can you count those either. IF the guy got knocked out cold then I'm sure he doesn't remmber being hit, and if he does I'm sure he wasn't sitting there counting all the shots. If he was counting he had enuff time to jump out of the way or atleast do somethig.

At the Las Vegas Pan Am finals. I got shot in the back side of my neck one day and the next day had it happen again, which made me dizzy and sick to my stomach. But I didn't have to get shot 12 times in that spot for it to happen.

1 or 2 balls in a certain spot can do the same thing that these supposed 12 did.

So maybe the better question is, was this guy wearing proper protection while playing. Obviously paintball masks do not cover the top of your head but hats and beanies do, and can provide alittle protect to prevent paintballs from hitting tender parts of the head that can cuase these types of injuries.

Obviously things are going to happen, and when you play anytype of sport that involves anytype of contact wether its a person or a object there is a chance of injury.

I'm not trying to defend chris if he did over shoot but the "facts" are kinda flimsey and in my opinion exagerated."

To answer some of your questions asked in ur post:
1. They may have been able to count the 12 hits by video, or by a reff hearing the marker fire or what not.
2. What Lasoya did was called "punishment bunkering" he intentionally aimed for the head, the man bunkered wasnt knocked out, he just recieved a cuncusion and was sent to hte hospital to get it checked out.
3. You were shot in the side of the neck one day, then the other. True it would sting, but to most of us that is just normal paintball. Imagine 5-12 shots POINT BLANK, there is quiet a huge difference, than 1 ball from 10 feet away.
4. Yes, this is the year 2004, not 1990's, All fields require the proper protection to be played at. A sockhat isnt a required part or necassary part to play paintball. True it provides protection, but how often do u get shot that many times on the top of the head.
5. True all sports involve the risk of injury, but ones like this can and should be avoided. I mean if it was only 5-6 shots this whole thing is about nothing. But if it was the supposted 12, or even 8-9 that is punishment bunkering, onces u see the first ball goes, if u want to continue firing to make sure it did break for sure, aim lower if u c it is at his heads level. I mean its pretty obvious its not an accident after the first few shots.

TheBigRaguPB4L

03-14-2003, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by DyNasTy
3. You were shot in the side of the neck one day, then the other. True it would sting, but to most of us that is just normal paintball. Imagine 5-12 shots POINT BLANK, there is quiet a huge difference, than 1 ball from 10 feet away.

Unless i'm picturing wrong(i think i am but this is the way it sounds), from the description that everyone is saying, he turned the bunker, saw him, ran up next to him putting the barrel to his head, then pulled the trigger 12 times. No, sorry but not happening. Maybe he was very close, but "POINT BLANK" is up against the person and it just did not happen that way.

Originally posted by DyNasTy
Yes, this is the year 2004

Isn't it 2003? Did i sleep a year away and miss it?

People are talking about adrenaline and "It's easy to get excited". If you were the one that got knocked out, would you be so easily forgiving? Somehow, I don't think so. I know if my one of my friends did it, i'd give him a nice jab to the jaw. Then i could forgive him.

Maybe it is all over exagerated. Something major had to have happened. Even though it probably won't be enforced, they did ban him. For them to take measures like that, he must have done something wrong.

So how about the trigger bounce. That means he cheated. He deliberately set up his gun that broke rules of the tournament. Especially something like trigger bounce because that's one of the newer fads that they're hyping about because of the insane ROF you can achieve with it.

I've never met him or seen him or his team play. Everything i know about this incident is all pretty much heresay. But really though, is it that farfetched? I don't think so. I can't imagine "proffessional" paintball ever growing up.

Tyger

03-14-2003, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by DyNasTy

2. What Lasoya did was called "punishment bunkering" he intentionally aimed for the head, the man bunkered wasnt knocked out, he just recieved a cuncusion and was sent to hte hospital to get it checked out.

We've been talking about this over on the p8ntballer.com board too. And I have a few ideas to discourage the "Bonus Ball"

First : Define it. A "Bonus Ball" can be defined as a paintball fired at an eliminated player with malicious intent. Under this definition, a player doing a run-through and bunkering with three shots is "ok". However, stopping at the position and shooting 12 is not "ok". Shooting players who are obviously eliminated is malicious as well. A player who is elimiated and walks through a firefight is not being shot at with malicious intent, however a player who is out of bounds and walking back to his deadbox and gets torched, that IS malicious intent.

You can also state that anything over "X" marks on a person is overshooting, but the problem is we playa team sport. And if you have 5 guys shooting at YOU, and they each hit you one time, that's 5 hits.

Second : Make it a written infraction. 1 for 1, no questions asked. If you are torchign dead guys, you get pulled, and so does a teammate. If you're feeling particularly nasty, make the rule so that for each additional splat mark on the player, another player gets pulled. So if you torcha guy, and put 10 marks on a dead guy, your whole team is pulled and then some the next game.

Third : The refs need to enforce the rule. Instead of saying "it's part of the game" or "you have to accept that", pull guys for overshooting. Do it EARLY in the comp, and get the word out that it will NOT be tolerated.

Fourth : Make a universally accepted signal for elimiated player that just about EVERYONE can do. Gun in the air is impractical, so let's go back to the Knoxville model. Player puts his off hand (Palm down) on top of his head, and walks away. Any player that does this action, or similar action, is IMMEDIATELY considered an elimiated player. (This also gets rid of the dead man's walk, BTW...) ANY Shooting of a player signaling his elimiation in such a way constitues a "Bonus ball" rule. Conversely, any player using the "Dead" signal and continuing play is penalised, as the rules already provide.

It's my take, anyhow.

-Tyger

manike

03-14-2003, 03:48 AM

OK Guys, here is Chris's side of it...

I am sorry that all of you feel this way about the incident but there are always 2 sides to every story. It did not happen this way at all. In fact the person who wrote this was not even at the event. All of his information is second hand from people who were involved. Of course he did not contact me for my side of the story. This person and I have a long history of hate between us so I guess that you people can figure that out. Anyway I had only shot the person in the goggles 1 time and he started to shot back at me so I in turn shot him back 3 times. 1 hit him in the forehead and I am sure that it hurt. I did say sorry to him and he even said that he was ok so I think the story is a little bit blown out of reason.

Peace

Oh and apparently it is true that the guy who wrote the article wasn't there...

Then the guy who was on Wayde's team has said

it is true what he said about the author of the article, he wasnt there. looking back on the article, he should have put that in there. also the author and lasoya havent been the best of friends since i have known them.
when you said you were sorry to him i guess he was ok, but he had migrane headaches every night for about 2 weeks after that. he has been fine since then.
i guess what i comes down to is we werent ready to go against pro style mugging. i just hope it doesnt happen to another player.

Dynasty yes of course I am biased, I have known Chris a long time and know him fairly well. I just like to make sure I know both sides of the story before crucifying someone. There are too many 'haters' on the net. It sounds very different from the other side now, and even the guy who was posting and on the same team as Wayde seems to have backed down. :rolleyes:

The guy who wrote the article and Chris have always been at each other, that puts a huge bias on the article.

Also the guy who wrote the article and got Chris banned has a huge influence on paintball in the area...

hhmmm makes you wonder...

Mighty Mike

03-14-2003, 04:18 AM

Ok...i've got 2 questions:

1) One shot to the head vs. twelve shots to the head. Which story is true??

2) If the incident did go down the way Chris explained, then why was he banned from the Pan Ams??

manike

03-14-2003, 04:32 AM

Mike if what Chris says is true it would have been 4 shots to the guy's head. 1 when he bunkered him and then 3 after the guy shot back. (that does sound like Chris :rolleyes: playing it fair till someone is an idiot and then Chris goes over the top).

As for why Chris was banned from the Pan Am, I do not know but I can hazard a guess...

Originally posted by manike
The guy who wrote the article and Chris have always been at each other, that puts a huge bias on the article.

Also the guy who wrote the article and got Chris banned has a huge influence on paintball in the area...

And the other guy did take 3 hits to the head after he was already out and Chris new it. He took them because he was apparently playing on and shooting back after he was eliminated... :rolleyes: now it's still wrong for Chris to have done that, but it's unfortunately became almost the norm in tournaments because of all the cheating and playing on. :( If the guy had just taken the first single hit and not shot back it wouldn't have happened...

Apparently (not sure how true this is) earlier in the day Chris had bunkered someone out and the guy then charged him in a fit. Chris at that time shot him in the lense to stop him running at him. (Chris is only a slight guy, well compared to me anyway :) )

So many people want to hate Chris and believe all the absolute crap rumours that fly around. It can't be easy to deal with that and all the wannabe's who think it's true and go out of their way to get at him.

It's a real shame that Pro paintball has come to this, where cheating is so common that people have come up with vigilante methods to punish the cheats. That's also why bonus balling (an aweful practice) is also so common at the top levels in USA play.

You will find over in Europe at top events much less head bunkering and bonus balling and I believe that is because we have better judges and if people cheat, or shoot the guy bunkering them they get penalised by the judges and so the other players don't feel the need to take it into their own hands.

50 cal

03-14-2003, 08:29 AM

And some industry people wonder why p-ball can't break into the mainstream sports world!
Some industry peeps are the ones that try to hide this behavior. I've seen it at waaay too many big tourneys, cry like a baby enough and you will get your way with the Ultimates (cough)Bill Cookston(cough) and tourney directors and sponsors.
If the rec players, and there are enough of us, would vote with our wallets against sponsors, you would see a change in some of ways outlandish behaviour is tolerated.

Just one guys opinion.

ogre55

03-14-2003, 09:34 AM

First of, thank you Mr. Lasoya for giving us, and I assume the rest of the paintball community your side of the story. I admit that I made a few assumptions regarding the incident, not the least of which is the fact the when someone writes a story for a journalistic purpose that they were there to witness the event. Considering that both the bunkerer and the bunkered (or a member of his team) concur about both the facts and that the writer was not a witness, they definately have changed my mind about the incident.

And thank you Manike for clearing up the rumor.

Ogre

cphilip

03-14-2003, 09:46 AM

I am inclined to believe Chris on the absence of any further proof and since the accusation was put forth by someone that wasn't even there. If thats the case then we have one side of the story. And the other side is more hear say than his is. Cause I am willing to accept Simons account that he spoke directly to Chris so... Well at this point it does sound a bit exagerated from the other side. Thats not too uncommon. And yea if someone turns on you after being shot he is prolly gonna get a few back from me too! Sorry but I am assuming he doesn't know yet he is out and I gonna make sure he knows then!

ShooterJM

03-14-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by manike
The guy who wrote the article and Chris have always been at each other, that puts a huge bias on the article.

Also the guy who wrote the article and got Chris banned has a huge influence on paintball in the area...

hhmmm makes you wonder...

Wooohoooo! Truth comes out and LaSoya is vindicated. In my book anyway.

:D :D :D :D :D

manike

03-14-2003, 11:12 AM

One thing I want to make clear is that I didn't speak directly to Chris, but I will do next time I see him, Chris actually posted that on another forum where this was being discussed also.

One thing I will say, Chris does get into some situations, but no way near the number that people accuse him of, and there is usually mitigating circumstances and stuff behind it that casually gets forgotten when people want to rag on him.

He is a figure at the top of our sport, and that makes him a target (like what I did there? nice pun huh? ;) ) for many. I don't think many people could take a lot of the unfounded aggro he does and come out of it so well.

Above everything he is a paintballer. And a good one.

SlartyBartFast

03-14-2003, 11:42 AM

IMO, Chris' own account of the incident warrants a ban from play.

At no time should you deliberatly aim at someone's head (unless it's the only thing they're exposing from behind a bunker). There is absolutely reason to test the extreme limits (multiple close range hits) of the most important safety equipment we use(goggles).

While I still wouldn't agree with the behaviour, and would still think of it as punishable, the shots should have been aimed at the body.

Crazy

03-14-2003, 11:50 AM

some people comlain too much...

manike

03-14-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
IMO, Chris' own account of the incident warrants a ban from play.

At no time should you deliberatly aim at someone's head (unless it's the only thing they're exposing from behind a bunker).

While I still wouldn't agree with the behaviour, and would still think of it as punishable, the shots should have been aimed at the body.

That's just unrealistic and certainly not outside the current rules so why should it be a banning offence?

Since head shots are allowed within the rules if people are worried or concerned about the results of taking headshots at close range they should wear better protective gear.

I know people that wear helmets to play because of that concern. It's their choice.

It's an individuals responsibility to protect themselves from what is legal play. Not the other person who may shoot them in a location they haven't adequatley protected...

That's why I wear a cup. Or maybe I should make a rule you can't shoot me in the groin? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
There is absolutely reason to test the extreme limits (multiple close range hits) of the most important safety equipment we use(goggles).

It has been done. They can take it. Although you should change the lenses after being shot at close range in the goggles... do you?

ShooterJM

03-14-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
While I still wouldn't agree with the behaviour, and would still think of it as punishable, the shots should have been aimed at the body.

I disagree. What's interesting is that I was warned about overshooting when I played at this dude's field. I went to bunker a guy and put three shots into his chest they all bounced. He swung to fire on me so I just kept shooting until I saw one break. Ended up being the 9th or 10th shot. I was told to go for the marker or goggles so there'd be less pain and bounces.

luke

03-14-2003, 02:00 PM

If Chris deserves to be banned, what about Wayde? He instigated the whole mess. If ANYTHING both Wayde and Chris should have been penalized for unsportsman like conduct FOR THAT GAME. To ban either one of them for the infraction is absurd.

luke

03-14-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by manike
Since head shots are allowed within the rules

To add to this statement, I'm fairly certain there isn't a over shooting rule either.

SlartyBartFast

03-14-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by luke
To add to this statement, I'm fairly certain there isn't a over shooting rule either.

Well, I'll retract my statement. There may be no actual grounds to ban or penalise either player. However, I certainly believe there should be. Until sportsmanship is somehow rewarded and unsportsman like conduct is penalised consistently, paintball doesn't stand a chance of being a mainstream activity. Indeed better, more tightly enforced, rules would limit the amount of wild speculation about unsportsmanlike behaviour and cheating that is currently lobbed about in situations like this.

I have never played a tournament and I doubt that I really want to. However, one of the most comic and hypocritical things I've seen at tournaments is the whole check the flag carrier before they hang the flag to win thing. If anybody on the team leaves the field with a hit the penalty should be severe. Why is it not allowable for a hit player to hang the flag, but allowable for a hit player to hand the flag off to another player for the points? In such a situation, even one player cought playing on at the end of the game should incur a penalty that eliminates the gain of the flag hang and more.

In Lasoya's case, the unsportsmanlike behaviour of both players should be punishable. The bunkered player for playing on and Lasoya for????. I'm not sure. I suppose to really be against what Lasoya did, ther has to be rule changes concerning eliminations and more specifically concerning bunkering. Refs should be quick to call bunkered players out. But there has to be some control over situations in which concussions and serious injury are possible.

hitech

03-14-2003, 06:13 PM

And the other guy did take 3 hits to the head after he was already out and Chris new it. He took them because he was apparently playing on and shooting back after he was eliminated... now it's still wrong for Chris to have done that...

I don't agree that it is wrong for Chris to have done that. If you've read my opinions on overshooting and bonus balling, you know that I am dead set against it. However, by continuing to play the other player was NOT eliminated. He was still IN the game. I would have shot him until he (or a ref) signaled his elimination. I hate playing on after your hit as much as overshooting and bonus balling.

silenttype

03-14-2003, 06:31 PM

WOW he makes 6 million to act like that,ill never buy any of Reds stuff, if he is on the team,he is a poor example,I dont like the guy anyway, now I hate him,he cheats and now he could have killed that guy.
Great represenitive of the sport.
A Hole:mad:

NastyPTA

03-14-2003, 06:43 PM

As i said in my earlier post i am new among you....i do not know the parties involved, but the fact our sport can have so much in-fighting over this incident, no matter who's story you choose to believe or even what truly occurred is one of the true reasons our sport is struggling so to make it in main-stream popularity...perhaps we need to work toward one true governing body as a sport...look at boxing and all the crap that can and does happen from multiple agencies stipulating rules and "standings"...does chris lasoya deserve some sort of punishment from paintball? maybe....but only if it can be proven that he violated the rules of the game.....as a rec ball player that has played in a few very minor tournaments i have observed one of the most lacking things can be sportsmanship...that thing which you can not force an individual to practice but which makes a sport so much more enjoyable.....in closing......CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???

Evil Bob

03-14-2003, 06:43 PM

It happens, sometimes you'll take someone out and they get so steamed about being shot out that they keep right on going, even when they're looking through a lens painted in bright orange goo.

And there are times when adrenaline poisoning takes over the player doesn't feel the hit, even when the ball hits bare skin and leaves a bloody welt the size of a peach.

The problem is 90% of the game is on the honor system, unfortunately a majority of the pro players out there are less then honorable and will cheat their way to the top as much as you allow them to get away with.

We have two choices here, 1) we invent extremely harsh rules to help prevent such occurances from happening or 2) we change the technology the players use.

How about something along the lines as the scoring mechanism in fencing? When a hit is scored, the opponents foil cannot register a hit. Do something similar, ref controlled. Imagine a field with 20 players and 20 refs, 1 ref assigned to a player. Each player has an electronic marker with a remote kill switch that is controled by the ref assigned to the planer in question. Ref watches that player implicitly, and not anyone else on the field. The second that player is visibly hit, the ref hits the kill switch which disables the players marker. Said kill switch could be infra red or radio based for short range control and coded so it only works with a specific marker ID and nothing else to prevent inadvertantly disabling the wrong marker.

A player goes on a bunker run, he's got at least two refs watching him and his target very closely, both have the means to control how much fire power is applied and limit it if necessary to maintain safty. If they are the only two players on the field, the moment one it hit both refs can disable both markers.

-Evil Bob

Tyger

03-15-2003, 03:00 AM

There's an old phrase.

"Ther's three sides to every story. Yours, Mine, and the Truth."

I believe that in this case, the "truth" is somewhere in the middle. Did LaSoya put 12 into the kids melon, or only 1? Was it retaliation or punishment? The truth is that we will never know. A hand full of people were there, and so far nobody has spoken up.

That being said, again it seems that it's easier to make excuses than it is to make it right. When it's all said and done, nothing will happen either way, and the game will go on. I mean, we could sit here and name names of pro players who have cheated on video tape without repricussion until the metaphorical cows come home, but in the end, it's all meaningless. Until there's accountability, ther's no reason or anyone to care. And, so far, no league, sponsor, or team has made any effort to incorporate any ammount of accountability for a players actions on, or off, the field. So much for "professionalisim". Accusatoins of what did, or did not, happen will continue as long as there's no accountability.

(Please tell me that makes sense...)

So, back to topic, did LaSoya overreact? Possibly. Whatever happened, he was banned, correct? If this is the case, WHATEVER happend warranted a lifetime ban. That, if it's true, speaks volumes more than accusations and allegances.

-Tyger (Stirring up the pot, I know, but what does it matter? It's not like JT will drop him any time soon...)

TheBigRaguPB4L

03-15-2003, 03:08 AM

Well, if it went down as how he "claims"(which i doubt), then i don't think he overreacted at all. If i'm bunkering someone and they turn to shoot me after they're so obviously done, i'm going to put so many balls into him that he won't even have the chance. On the other hand, when you get bunkered, you're first instinct is to turn and shoot. Kinda like the surender rule. It's just a surprise that you don't always have time to think about. It really could go either way.

My opinion is that if he doesn't feel that he was judged right because of the situation, maybe he should have kept a better reputation as to his on field behavior. One could only assume that if you're a constant cheater or have numerous incidents that don't put you in a proper mind frame for the majority of your peers, any kind of situation is going to put you at the bottom of the barrel.