Suggestions about Piranha and Kingmann electros?

[chuey]

Question? Do you guys find your mags boring? I live in Brooklyn, NY and have to travel out of the city to play paintball. In truth I shouldn't even be owning a marker within the city limits, but whatever. I also work about 60 hours a week in an office (blecxk). Anyhoo my roomate got me into paintballing and I latched on quick to it, out of boredom and needing to get outdoors and away from NYC.

My brother also played until he had a kid recently and suggested that I get a mag since HE went from Automag to STO Cocker to an RT Pro and likened the Mag to an Armored tank for its reliability on the field. In truth I don't think he gave the 'cocker much of a chance as I've played with them and their pretty great guns as are Mags. I've played with his RT and that thing rocks although I didn't play with it long enough to get used to the springiness of the trigger. The sweet spot that it has is really cool, though unethical when playing rec ball. Plus I don't spray paint that often lol. Anyhoo do any of you mag owners out there find it kinda boring owning a mag? I do. Now that I have a level 10 kit installed and the pressure is stable. I don't really have anything to do at home as far as tinkering goes. Since my gun works now is always working great. I don't experience velocity spikes or drop off even when I string 6 balls which is about the most I ever shoot at a time max. At the end of the day I dunk it in water, clean it, lube it and put it back in its case. And that's it until next time I take it out.

So I was thinking about getting a cheapy vertical feed electro marker just to play with (about 2 beans from ebay more or less). Does anyone own any of the Kingmann or Pirahna electros and can shed some perspective? I'd like to get either an EM-1, E-Force VTL, AMG, E-99 or G3Pro in this exact order. I really like the looks of an EM1 in green or the E-Froce in red. But I refuse to give up the reliability factor that I have in my MiniMag, I bought it used and it seems very old, I swapped out all the O-rings and it works like a dream.

My roomate plays with a Spyder TL Plus and either he has absolutely no feel for its trigger whatsoever or that gun chops paint like a mother and is a cheap piece of crap, maybe both, I don't know. I can't deal with chopping paint personally, it messes with my sense of peace and oneness with the game while I'm playing and the reason why I get out of the city every weekend whenever I can. My minimag w/level 10 breaks a ball maybe once out of every case. Anyhoo can anyone shed some light on any of these guns and how they compare with the others mentioned in this group. I love my minimag, and people always look at me when I crank balls the guy that I bought the mag from sawed off the trigger guard so sometimes I just put my mag up to my chest and start wailing on the trigger when I want people to duck so that my team can advance it just gets expensive at the fields that I play at which are field paint only & 100 bucks a case). Thanks for the help...

[FalconGuy016]

(okay I lied I do like to spray paint it just gets expensive at the fields that I play at which are field paint only 100 bucks a case).

Holy crap!! Is it field paint only? THATS FRICKEN EXPENSIVE!! If it is not field paint only, find SOME way to get paint from another source (pro shop, internet) As for electros, the only one ive tried is the very basic piranha, even though they are all the same frames so it doesnt matter, but it ROCKS! I loved it, I wish I could take it home

[deathstalker]

I'm a big fan of Kingman's products (I use my Xtra more than my MiniMag and 'cocker combined) and of the ones you listed, I would recommend an E-99. When it comes to blowbacks, the biggest feature is price. More expensive doesn't mean better. It usually means there are a few more features, most of which end up getting replaced anyway.

If you're looking for electro blowbacks, consider Kingman's Esprit, Imagine, or E-99 and base your decision on the number of upgrades you might be considering, most important of which is a good regulator and/or air system. I would look for the cheapest marker, only because there is virtually no "performance" difference between them.

[Sir Chopsalot]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016


Holy crap!! Is it field paint only? THATS FRICKEN EXPENSIVE!! If it is not field paint only, find SOME way to get paint from another source (pro shop, internet) As for electros, the only one ive tried is the very basic piranha, even though they are all the same frames so it doesnt matter, but it ROCKS! I loved it, I wish I could take it home

this field by my house only allows field paint and its about 140 a case but about electronic spyders i messed around with my friends e99, i didnt actually shoot it i just dry fired it but i had fun messing around with it since ive never had an electro before

[Fred]

If you want a marker that will be fun to play with, relatively cheap, doesn't chop, and shoot less paint... an e-triggered blowback probably isn't your best bet...

Get a Pump! :D

---Fred

[chuey]

Yup Top Gun, Liberty and SI Paintball, where I play the most runs 100-115 a case. I go to Fireball Mountain but its like the wild wild west over there, people shooting their guns anywhere, no rules, maybe I'm a woos but I'm not trying to get an eyeball taken out by another paintballa in the staging area.

If we remember sometimes we run out and get a case of Blaze of Venom online before going out if not we pay a mint to play. But this is rare.

Is that really true that there is no difference in performance between these guns? And I really do wanna tinker. I guess its all about getting the velocity to stay the same all the time. Do the elctros break paint? I'd chew my arm off if I had to deal with a non twist lock barrel gun breaking paint all the time!!!

[PzYcO]

My fav kingman/pirhana electro has got to be Spyder Electra DX, it pwnz0r :)

[chuey]

I thought about the pump route, but I play with a group of 6 people and quite often the extra fire power gets us up the field quicker. My friends usually are like Chris go up there and spray some paint, so we can run up the field quicker. My friends with the cockers can't do it 'cuz they short stroke too often even when they're being careful. My two friends with Flash's...well one is too chubby and immobile to duck after he finishes spaying, and my other friend always like to go solo. So that just leaves me. We have one guy with an STO and he shoots maybe a hopper the whole day since he always runs for the flag, and my other friend with a cocker short strokes too much. So that just leaves me with the minimag to cover their butts.

[mykroft]

Go with a Pirahna, or buy a BKO, it's only a bit more. The Spyder's quality control is spotty compared to PMI's. I got a good spyder, but the odds are about 50% towards you getting a crappy one.

[joeyjoe367]

Is my mag boring? Probably, but who says that's a bad thing?

hehe, I didn't like it when "exciting" things would happen to my old spyder :D

[la690]

wtf?!?! those FP prices are crazy! my local feild hs it for $50 a case. i would protest. seriously. petition it. but anyways, back to the question at hand... i dont find my mag boring. even though nothin goes wrong with it i still always open up the valve and reg just to look around. and if i do get bored i just buy something:)

[Dayspring]

No. I don't find that owning a mag is boring. It means I spend less time teching the gun and more time playing.

Why? Cuz quality always shoots. :D

[rehme]

at this one field the paint was $75 for all star and i thought that was crazy

[askman]

Another lower end blowback electro that you should consider is e-ranger from WGP. I've heard some good stuff about it. and fairly cheap. cocker threaded barrel and good support.

Of course, minimum I would recommend is bko bushmaster. (280 or so) For myself, I shoot autococker(I just finished putting one together from body kit and parts), emag and mag pump.

[chuey]

I kinda like the EM1 for some reason. It looks like a bushy. I'm very attached to my minimag though. I got it on ebay as a package for $225 and I just love a baragain, it came with: Level 7 minimag h/r (I'm a leftie), VL2000 I switched to a Revvie realized I didn't need to afterwards) when you're aiming it ain't right to hit a guy more than three times so I try not to spray, gas thru shoulder stock up for trade, 6+1 horizontal camo harness with straps for sale or trade I just got an Ultraback, Diamond Labs Hurrican Valve, Zero Grav barrel and SP AA barrel, 2X benchie wood grips, remote. I since popped in a levelX, sight rail cuz I got bored, Nitro Tank. Here's a pic. Anyhoo I really really trust it and have grown attached. I'll try to borrow a bushy this weekend though if I can. And defiantely an EM1 if I can get my hand on one. Opinions please on the EM1!

[joeyjoe367]

I owned an em-1 for about a week.

That had to have been the crappiest electronic trigger I have felt in my entire life. I had no beef with anything else on the gun, but the trigger was...

Eewww... disgustingly... ugh.

That's the only way I can describe it. It's pretty blocky for a stack-tubed blowback too.

I can't really recommend one unless you score it *real* cheap. Heck, you might like the trigger;)

[hitmanng]

I copied the following from a post about the new evil omen:
http://www.automags.org/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&threadid=72421



As I see someone pointed out PMI is the one really in charge of this project or making sure it is working since they are marketing it through PMI. So far I am a fan of the Evil people also. The paint and the Pipe are good quality. I have not seen a jersey in person but I assume the quality is good also.
PMI also has excellent customer service. So far they have been much like AGD as far as taking care of my issues.




Originally posted by nicad
my old post on the aardvarkdirect.com forums-

"got the chance to look over the Omen at WC..

sorry, NOT impressed.
the method of closed bolt is unique, ill give them that much.. but the thing reeks of cheezball. no way is it on the same par with angels, matrix's, cockers etc..
its an electric spyder with different working internals.
no "ram" per say.. i mean heck.. its still a freaking blowback system."


This is the basic question if is a blowback system less accurate? Less reliable? Slower? I have shot a lot of markers and while was not a fan of the Spider, I am a fan of the Piranha. I find it very reliable and I can shoot it fast enough that even when using my non-electric marker that nearly identical to the rental piranha get accused of using a better marker than the other players. I also own a Mag and it has been very reliable but less so as a level ten. While it is great when shooting it keeps blowing seals or leaking.
The E-force "a spider with an electronic grip" is actually quite amazing. Look at the february Facefull Mag Review:
Note: These are reviewed by the same person.
.............Piranha E Force G3.....WGP Orracle Autococker
Accuracy............2...................4
Rate of fire........5...................3
Gas Automomy........4...................3
Ball Breakage.......3...................4
Balance.............4...................4
Smooth firing.......4...................4
Stability...........4...................4
Maintainance........4...................3
Assembly parts......5...................5

It matched or beat the newest Cocker at everything except Accuracy and Ball breakage.
The accuracy issue between a closed and open bolt system will always be an issue for some people more likely this was a factor of stock barrel quality.
If you look at the price difference I think the E-force is a force to be reccond with.
I think it was Ronin that once said that he let his players pick out any gun they wanted and he payed for it, but in his mind a Piranha with an electronic grip was as good as an Angel and more reliable.
The Omen is in many ways is a souped up Piranha with a unique feed system that might include a closed bolt if that does it for you. It is a blowback system. I am buying one because of my experiance with the E-Force not in spite of it.


I own a mag have owned a spider and currently own 2 pirhanas one e-force and one none electronic. I amso have a Phantom but that is another story.

Ths fact is the E-Force is easily to best electronic gun for the money from a great company.
You can probably pick one up well under $200.00. Any problem you may have with it PMI is happy to fix.

If you have any more questions let me know.
hitmanng

[speedyejl]

chuey why dont you come out on the island? The IPS Arena (Empire, Indoor) and High Velocity (also Indoor) have BYOP nights during the week.

Also, I don't think there are many (if any at all) fields in the Southeren New York area that charges less than $100 a case for FP. There is a price to being the home of the Ground Zeros... I find that the level of competition is higher on BYOP nights.

Try coming out east it'll be worth it, during the summer Advantadge at Coram rocks. Also avoid going to Advantadge at Hauppauge (Indoor) like the plague, its just a bad place unless you are going for a Cousins Cup torunament or the sort.

[FeuerFri]

get a spyder compact 2k and a dermel. than look on www.ottersccustoms.com to see what to hack up on it, rip off of it, and put on it.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016


Holy crap!! Is it field paint only? THATS FRICKEN EXPENSIVE!!

Welcome to NYC paintball.

Ogre

[ogre55]

Originally posted by speedyejl
chuey why dont you come out on the island? The IPS Arena (Empire, Indoor) and High Velocity (also Indoor) have BYOP nights during the week.

Also, I don't think there are many (if any at all) fields in the Southeren New York area that charges less than $100 a case for FP. There is a price to being the home of the Ground Zeros... I find that the level of competition is higher on BYOP nights.

Try coming out east it'll be worth it, during the summer Advantadge at Coram rocks. Also avoid going to Advantadge at Hauppauge (Indoor) like the plague, its just a bad place unless you are going for a Cousins Cup torunament or the sort.

Just avoid Cousin's altogether. But I can also vouch for Arena and High Velocity. I prefer Arena a bit more fieldwise, but HV has a much better proshop on the premeses

[speedyejl]

Don't compare the proshops, Arena just has feild goods.

IPS is North of the LIE on Rt 101. Since Arena is owned by IPS, and is only about 2miles south I guess they didn't feel they needed two stores that close.

Also Empire sells Zap Chronic as FP, and sells Zap Primer at $50 on BYOP nights. Compared to the Kickin' at HV its a world difference. I can't even count how many times that kickin' has bounced off people, even straight head on lens shots.

[Bront]

If you can, get one of the Piranha G3 E-forces (Not VTL's) if you want Semi-auto only electric trigger, or get one of the new 2K3 Piranhas (EXT if you can). The 2K3 EXT runs stock at around 250 PSI, comes with a nice reg and good internals, and the new E-force trigger. Yes it's a bit more expensive than the spyders, but it's more reliable, and performs quite well.

[speedyejl]

ha! 250psi

I owned a Pro TS G3, if I put the PMI below 750, boom shootdown. Not that the operating preassure means anything but its not 250psi by a long throw.

[xen_100]

I dont think you can get any blowback down to 250 PSI and have it reliablely operate AND still chrono worth a crap.

[chuey]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I havn't headed much to the LI fields I have to admit, although I am familiar with the area since I graduated from "Stoner" Brook about 5 years ago. I'm a bit confused now as I think I've come to realize that I want a gun to tinker with that is also armored tank like in play as my brother would say before he gave up the sport. The techs at cousin's are nice, they fixed one of my friend's Spyder's although it was kinda costly to fix a jammed O-ring basically $45. I have 2 cases of paint still and think I'm gonna hit up Fireball this Sunday just in case all the AO'ers will be out there, will be looking for yas. Coram sounds fun and might do that nice week so I can get some smokes and a steak at J & R's afterwards on the way back.

[chuey]

Quick update, I bought a bushy, will let you know how it goes.

[askman]

I think you will like bushy. It is much better than any blowback. that was my recommendation, as well as others... I hope you like it. it is great value for the money..

[chuey]

thanks ask. i looked into an autococker and someone had a '98 for sale for 150 made from sp parts it had a rock reg on it which sounded good, but i was scared to take it in as a project since i'm just a beginner in paintball. i can't shoot burst shots at my fields anyway so it was a good value compared to the B2K. If I like it I'll try to build a cocker, they are cool guns just different than a mag.

[askman]

cockers are fun though. THey are pretty simple once you figure them out, and looks more daunting then they are. I built mine from ground up. I do airsmithing part time, so I had lot of good part for cheap or as labor(some people have too much money, and have to upgrade a upgraded parts) I bought a KAP body kit for 135 shipped off ebay.(came with back block, 15 degree, angel feed) already had freak kit, so just needed a back. once it is timed and locked down, they are as reliable as anything. the problem is that people tinker too much with them. Mine is setup with 220psi input from sidewinder main reg, and have really short trigger pull that is crip and light.(kapp frame) Don't really see a need for electro trigger. I used to be pistolsmith(mostly 1911 race guns for ipsc) before doing this part time, so I appreciate good crisp mechanical trigger.(my full time job is a research engineer building printhead)

even though I have everything upgraded, stock ones are pretty good as well. they needs to be tuned for best performance(stock tuning is made for reliability, not top performance, but not too bad) some late 2k2 cocker came with swing triggers, and they are good buy. I would avoid pre2k, unless you get it for cheap, fully upgraded. (I've seen 99 with top notch part go for 200 bucks)

[madmatt151]

Hey why should he stay away from Cousins? I have been going to them for years, and they are ok. I prefer thier field in Newburgh, but now that I have moved to Queens, Coram is closer. I visited IPS' indoor field and it is cool. They rent Mags with nitro, how smart. Chuey, where are these other fields you go to. I know SI, but where is this fireball mountain?

$100 case is normal here. ALthoug, let me tell you hwo suprised I was when I went on a trip to Skirmish and found out it was a half price weekend. We got cases for $50! In NY terms that was a GREAT deal! I mean even newbies bought a case because it was so cheap. They might have made more money that day then usual days. 40 people on our bus, 35 of them bought at leat one case.

[madmatt151]

Oh BTW what about the JT? I too have been a bit bored and am using my fiance as an excuse to get a new cheap electro. How are the JT's? They are blue and she likes blue :)

[ogre55]

I have heard nothing but bad things about Counsins, both in service and price. I also had the misfortune of experiencing their overinflated prices when I asked about a Pro-connect, which they were selling for $90. You can pick one up online for $45. I understand that there is a mark-up for brick and mortar businesses, but 100%? I don't think so.

Ogre

[nerobro]

Originally posted by xen_100
I dont think you can get any blowback down to 250 PSI and have it reliablely operate AND still chrono worth a crap.

Hop on PBN and drop into the kingman forum... I have at least 3 frequent users who will argue that. So will AKA, the black widows ran at 250psi.

Another note. While the bodys and guts are good. the JT frames are problematic at best. What became the JT guns was what we used to demonstrate the blowback at 30bps. Dragun body, M3 frame, 10oz co2, crossfire, and hyperflow air ;-)

[askman]

You can design anything marker to run at 250 psi, including blowback. with lower pressure, volume has to increase. there may be praticality issues, but I don't see why it cannot be done. Is it worth doing? I don't know. blowbacks by nature is associated with low end, so I don't think it makes marketting sense either.

[TimEmag00134]

I can't answer your question about which gun to buy (personally I love a gun that I don't have to constintly have to fix/adjust like the Bushmaster that I use now or the Minimag and Emag that I used to own), but I might be able to help you on a cheaper place to play ball at.

If you like speedball fields then you can try Del Hobbies in southern Jersey (it will be a bit of a drive for you tho). You can also try On Target Paintball in Pemberton, they've got speedball fields and normal woods fields. It's still a bit of a drive, but about 45 min shorter than Del Hobbies. I believe that both fields will allow you to bring your own paint as long as you own your own equipment and their paint doesn't cost $100 (at least I don't think it does, I buy my paint from Hector's Outdoor Haven in Columbus).

[John Dresser]

The new 2k3 Piranhas do work at or below 250 PSI and shoot at 300 fps at @ 280 psi. This is a completely stock $200 gun and it is all sorts of reliable.

The G3 that wouldn't cycle below 700 psi didn't have the new body style and probably didn't have a turbo valve. Turbo valves will allow even older Piranhas to shoot @ 500 psi.

[askman]

I am curious, since I have not owned a blowback in years. Does the low pressure make a difference in chopping? Understanding how they work, I don't see how low pressure will help that much. The bolt spring is almost enough to cause chopping.... hmm or is it just a marketting hype?

[nerobro]

In a blowback low pressure can hurt the guns ability to not chop. people tend to use harder hammer springs, and hammer springs define how gentle a blowback is on paint.

[John Dresser]

You have it exactly right. Most people (aka) that try to make a high pressure gun into a low pressure gun use a super hard hammer spring to compensate for the lower pressure. That's why PMI didn't make the Piranha G3 guns go under 500 psi, you'd have to use such a hard hammer spring to take it up, you'd chop paint.

The new Piranha 2k3 guns have both a flat faced bolt and the lightest main spring ever in a blowback gun. PMI got the pressure down by making the whole gun just flow much better.

The new flat faced bolts aren't as high tech as the level 10 upgrade but they work really well to not chop paint. If you catch a ball still feeding on one of the new Piranhas, you just recock the gun and allow the ball to fall the rest of the way in.

[folder504]

Now if you want a real good tinkerer gun, get a Stingray. You can do ANYTHING to them. And they're so cheap, if you totally screw it up, you're only out like $40. If you swich the detent ball to a 10mm plastic bead, it will last pretty much forever. And if you have any problems, the people over at the Brass Eagle Owners Group forum (www.beog.org) are VERY helpful and VERY nice. Try to get a black one, their plastic is MUCH stronger than the clear junk.
Stingray Toters INternet Group - http://www.stinggroup.addr.com/

[chuey]

Impressions? I was speechless. Electro markers are definately different. Trigger pull requires no effort, and I found myself outshooting the hopper, something I never really did with my minimag. BKO was accurate. I just ordered a used Mac Dev Gladiator and hope that this will take care of the shoot down. Need to loktite everything that comes "screwed" in. Makes me want to get an automag RT down the line. lol

[Brett23]

My suggestion would be either a pirahna eforce, or a Black dragun. Both are sweet for your blow back markers. I would take the eforce first though. PMI's cust service is pretty good. Not to mention the eforce is about as wide as a credit card lol (jk close to it though). Talk about your small target profile. Im going to get one soon just for rec ball to give the Emag a break.

[Just_a_Kid]

BKO for sure. I like tuning regs for the fun of it. $250 at www.pbgear.com They are great and you can really spray.