Level 10 Crated Sweet Spot on RetroValve

[DonPage]

I've had my blessed Mag for a little over 2 years now, I added an RT valve about a year ago. I was disappointed with the level of reactivity in the trigger so I added an IntellaFrame with a Blade trigger, later an adjustable tank. Everything helped, but nothing resulted in the sweet spot that I was looking for. Frankly I was starting to think I was just to dim witted to fire the gun correctly. Then I added the level 10 upgrade and the sweet spot I had been searching for unexpectedly appeared. In the past the best I could do was short bursts of 3 to 4 balls at about 8 bps. Now with the trigger reacting like it should I could dump an entire hopper at 13bps with ease! (Not that I would)

It seems like the sweet spot becomes bigger and faster with the Mags reg set at the lowest possible pressure. At one time I am pretty sure the gun was firing at about 20 bps! It seems to me, in my limited experience that a weaker spring would allow you to turn down the reg and produce a larger faster sweet spot. Between the three springs shouldn't it be possible to get any RT to sweet spot at a given velocity?

If so why doesn't anyone talk about it? AGD should market a RT Fine tune kit with a selection of springs so we can all turn our RTs into the dream guns we seek. Right now I am shooting 13 bps with deadly accuracy. I can't chop no matter how hard I try. What more could any baller ask for?

[DaosBeoulve]

DonPage, you posted the exact same post HERE (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71378) and HERE (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71378).

That's spamming, and something you agreed not to do when you signed up for these forums. I'd suggest deleting it and/or changing them before a mod becomes aware of it. Just giving you a heads up on it.

As was explained in another thread, 'sweet spotting' your mag is when you can just hold constant pressure on your trigger, and it bounces against your own finger and fires a succession of shots. It is, indeed, a malfunction. It has been spoken of many times on these boards. Do a search. You'll turn up a ton of posts on the subjects, including ways to cure it posted by many of the mods here.

Welcome to AO, but please take a look at the guidelines for the site before randomly posting the same post in three seperate threads. (Guidelines and Rules (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72174))

[CoolHand]

Now, I'm not a mag person, but I thought the the "bounce" of the RT trigger was the whole point.

Why would you design a reactive trigger not to bounce? The insane ROF I have seen would be impossible to achieve if the trigger did not bounce.

If it is indeed a malfunction, then every RT mag I have ever shot was malfunctioning. I doubt this was the case.

I would be interested to see a full fledged AGD tech's take on whether the bounce is "as designed", or a malfunction.

[Dayspring]

The trigger "kick" was a side effect of designing the airflow to recharge faster than any valve in paintball. And it's designed to kick the trigger back to ready position. The "bounce" that people work up is a malfunction of the gun and can lead to broken parts.

Secondly, it's illegal at NPPL events & many fields. (bouncing triggers that fire more than one ball per pull)

Here's the difference-

AGD designd a fast valve and the "kick" was a side-effect.
Tippmann designed a valve apart from the main valve to rechannel wasted gas to get the "kick" & they can tune theirs to greater extent than we can. They did little to upgrade the crappy valve they use.

In closing- you can go ahead and LOOK for this trigger bounce, but be prepared to break things. And don't think that the guns were designed to do such. It's user error.

[DaosBeoulve]

Originally posted by CoolHand
Now, I'm not a mag person, but I thought the the "bounce" of the RT trigger was the whole point.


There is not a 'bounce', persay, in the RT trigger. When you depress the trigger, it pushes back on your finger, creating the reactive effect. With how much force it pushes back depends upon your input pressure (from your tank).

And, oh yeah, what Dayspring said:D

[CoolHand]

If you say so.

I don't own an RT, and none of the people that I regularly play with do either, so I've never gotten into them.

I am not as knowledgable when it comes to Mags as I would like to be, so I will not argue when I am out of my depth.

I am curious to know where you get your technical information from.

Hearsay and good advice is easy to find in a forum, but solid technical information, from the OEM is much harder to come by.

Later

[Dayspring]

It's called being here for over a year or so, hanging with mag people on my team, having Tunaman as a team tech, sitting in chat with techs, do some research, hanging with AGD factory Techs.

Hang around a bit. You'll learn stuff. :)


Originally posted by CoolHand
If you say so.

I don't own an RT, and none of the people that I regularly play with do either, so I've never gotten into them.

I am not as knowledgable when it comes to Mags as I would like to be, so I will not argue when I am out of my depth.

I am curious to know where you get your technical information from.

Hearsay and good advice is easy to find in a forum, but solid technical information, from the OEM is much harder to come by.

Later

[Tim Taylor]

What is the point in the valve being able to recharge to 26 bps if you can only use the marker in semi mode? I know of VERY few people that can pull off a string of 7-8 bps on any mechanical marker let alone a mag. You might be able to pull off 2 more bps with an iframe but that's about the limit. I hope someone can clarify.

[askman]

emag or xmag can go upto 16 and 20 bps, and it uses basically same valve. people have hard time going faster than 10bps with mechanical trigger. with my emag, I can easily rip 10+ bps. fastest semi mechanical marker I have is a cocker that I built ground up, and I can keep about 10 for short burst at a time. when I had my RT, I could do 8 or so with iframe. still plenty fast.

[DaosBeoulve]

Originally posted by Tim Taylor
What is the point in the valve being able to recharge to 26 bps if you can only use the marker in semi mode? I know of VERY few people that can pull off a string of 7-8 bps on any mechanical marker let alone a mag. You might be able to pull off 2 more bps with an iframe but that's about the limit. I hope someone can clarify.

Well, think of it this way.

Would you buy a car that could only go 70 mph because that's as fast as you can legally go? Cars that can go any faster than 70 are, in reality, just showing off, no? Most exotics go 200+.

Well, let's turn that to markers. You have marker A, that can't shoot more than 10 bps without shootdown(which is fine, because normally you can't shoot that fast anyways). You have marker B, that can shoot 26 bps without shootdown. Let's say you practice like crazy, and in a game, you rip off a succession of shots that would be roughly equivalent to 12-13 bps. If you have marker A, the balls have a markable decrease in velocity and range, whereas marker B doesn't have a problem and you gog the person you were shooting at. There's really no feeling great than that:)

No, no one can pull the trigger 26 times a second. That's crazy. But I for one love the feeling of knowing that if somehow I could, the marker would back me up=) My car has 140 on the speedometer. She's never been anywhere near that. But's it nice knowing that if some crazy, out of this world situation called for it, she wouldn't let me down about going that fast.

Also, if you're looking for further proof of the absolute beauty of the quickest recharge rate in the paintball community, do a search for butter's emagnum emag. I just stared and laughed the first time I watched the vids of that particular emag=)

[Tim Taylor]

DaosBeoulve what you say is true for many things, however, your car can still go 140 mph. If the rt/x valve was designed to recharge at 26 bps then should you be able to shoot it for short bursts at that speed i.e. sweetspot on the trigger?

[DaosBeoulve]

The same analogy applies.

If you sweetspot the trigger on the mag and make it run-away and get close to that 26 bps threshold, the ref is gonna disqualify you (on most any field, all tournies, etc.).

If you go 140 mph in your car, the cop is gonna disqualify you from driving for a while.

I'm beginning to like this analogy a bit too much, I suppose...

But anyways, yes, if you tweak around, you can indeed sweetspot the trigger, you can make your mag go completely haywire and shoot off a string of shots the likes of which you've never seen. Get an adjustable tank, crank the input pressure a bit, and I've heard it's fairly easy. I have a 850 psi preset tank. I've never 'sweetspotted' my mag such that it ran away. It shoots entirely too fast for my budget as is without going full auto on me...

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Dayspring
...Tippmann designed a valve apart from the main valve to rechannel wasted gas to get the "kick" & they can tune theirs to greater extent than we can. They did little to upgrade the crappy valve they use...

I respectfully disagree... :)

Their valve is designed to work on the type of gun they make -> a recreational / rental gun which will most likely see CO2 as a power source.

With this in mind, I don't think the Tippy valve is crappy at all. In fact, on a cold day, with CO2 as your only source for power, the CVX valve is more reliable than most valves out there... esp a MAG valve.

The Tippy may not be a fine precision implement of paintball chucking sweetness. But it is reliable and requires the least amount of maintenance and TLC out of all paintball valves available today.

I have 2 tippy 98's I loan out to friends when we play, and I have never seen them go down or freeze up due to CO2. They may not shot very straight, but they always work!:) The cannot be said for my minimag (air valve) that I also loan out.:(

Again, the M98 valve is not crappy, it's just designed for a difference type of gun with difference expected playing condiditons where reliability and durability and minimal maintenance are more important than percision performance.

Ya dig?
:)

[cledford]

Originally posted by CoolHand
If you say so.
I am curious to know where you get your technical information from.

Hearsay and good advice is easy to find in a forum, but solid technical information, from the OEM is much harder to come by.

It is a malfuntion. I get my technical information from attending AGD tech classes taught by Tom Kaye - I think he'd be one to know.

As a word of advice - for the most part (unlike on other boards) when someone posts around here they are likely spot on. Without "dissing" owners of other markers or their forums - the member of AO are a cut above. In the unlikely event someone goofs and mis-states something at least 5 others will correct the mistake. We all preach the word of Tom around here - and that means no BS and/or hype. Additionally, this is the only forum where the owner of the company posts DAILY. A number of factory techs also post here almost every day.

Welcome to AO.

-Calvin

[DonPage]

The tech classes sound interesting, where can I get more information?

[cledford]

Tom (AGD) has them from time to time at major events and sometimes at the factory. The one I attended was at last years IAO. I would guess they have 2-3 a year. The IAO class was AGD - 8 hours, AKA - 1 hour and Center Flag - about 2 hours. It cost $75 bucks but was well worth it. I'm hoping they do it again this year :)

-Calvin

[cgrieves]

Aha, so you are the individual I need to approach when my Hyperframe arrives (and doesn't work) :D