GZ Timmy + Equalizer + Roller Trigger METHOD + Stock grooved Trigger = 20 CPS

[Jack & Coke]

Hello again!

Inspired by AGD's developement of the roller trigger (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66703&highlight=roller+trigger)
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=600941
...I decided to upgrade my GZ Timmy with an Equalizer (since I have to wait forever for an XMAG!:mad:!:mad:!:mad:!) and see if I could duplicate the insane ROF AOers were acheiving via the "roller trigger" method... of course, since I don't actually have a roller trigger, I would have to do this with only the stock grooved trigger that came with my GZ.

First, I must say, I REALLY LIKE THE STOCK OLD SCHOOL GZ TRIGGER!, it's got plenty of play, and the grooves are just right - not too deep, not too shallow.

When I fire my GZ via the roller trigger method (as taught here on AO), I noticed I'm actually firing the gun 4 times with each finger stroke.

If my finger cycle starts at the bottom...

The gun fires once when my finger strikes the trigger at the middle of the stroke.

The gun fires once when my finger strikes the trigger at the top of the stroke.

The gun fires once when my finger strikes the trigger at the middle of the stroke.

The gun fires once when my finger strikes the trigger at the bottom of the stroke.


Thanks AO for your inspiration!

Wurd!

[Jack & Coke]

Sound clip (zipped wav file)

[Jack & Coke]

sound file analysis...

[SlipknotX556]

Very nice.

[rehme]

i seen people with matrixs do that before but it did not sound that fast

[Jack & Coke]

I think the best thing about this is that it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy and effortless to do.

Using the traditional finger walking method, I struggle a lot to maintain a consistant string. If I'm lucky and my fingers and knuckles don't seize up on me, I figure I can hit around 7-10 cycles per second. Not too fast compared to today's super finger walking mofos.

However, it is really really really easy to gitty up to 18-20 cps using the AO roller finger METHOD.

Did I mention it's easy?

Cheers!;)

[SlipknotX556]

By the way coke, how do you like your gz?

[darklord]

Very impressive. I like that little animated pic, lol :D

What's the equalizer? A board for timmies? Is it the one that has an unlimited ROF/BPS setting? Sorry but I'm a timmy newb.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by SlipknotX556
By the way coke, how do you like your gz?

I LOVE IT!:D

Of course I love ALL my guns also! I've said this before, I enjoy playing with all my guns for different reasons.... even my 18 bps Tippy M98 RT. :)

As far as my GZ, it feels really nice, and performs GREAT! I'm really happy with it. I must say though, I'm very patient, and don't mind tinkering and performing routine maintenance on stuff... so the GZ is no pain for me. If you don't know, Timmy's require much much more maintenance and TLC than mags do. But I don't mind.:)

(I'm talking about misc. maintenance and problems with the cup seal leakage, ram bumper replacement, bolt position, noid, wires, regulators, etc.)

Timmy's are great guns! But so are all of the other high end gun! heheh... i guess that's what you should EXPECT if you fork over $1,000+ for a paintball gun - whether it's a TIMMY, XMAG, ANGEL, E-BLADE! They is all good:D

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by darklord
Very impressive. I like that little animated pic, lol :D

What's the equalizer? A board for timmies? Is it the one that has an unlimited ROF/BPS setting? Sorry but I'm a timmy newb.

This is the WAS Equalier => http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products/equalizer.htm





http://www.wickedairsportz.com/images/equal3a.jpg


What is the Equalizer?

The Equalizer is a tournament legal, semi-only board for Bob Long's Intimidator series markers. This board has been approved for use by Bob Long himself, which means that by using this board you will not void the warranty of your Intimidator. This board will work in all current and future Intimidator models. This upgrade board increases the rate of fire and offers numerous other features...


You don't have to believe all of WAS BS hype, just know that the board kick butt and rocks!:p

[PsychoBaller]

I wish I had the funds right now..... I'm actually down to only one gun, that being my SFL. I need some sort o backup, but need to sell some stuff first.... (ahem.. like in my sig.. heh)... But my first backup consideration would be a 2k2 GZ Timmy, just like the one u have.

I'm not into the other models with all the fancy dragon milling, and swervy crap... Just a 2k2 GZ Timmy, nice and plain. My teammates is sweet. Light, trigger is nice, etc.

~da "wishes he had a little sister to sell" baller

[manike]

That's exactly the way I shoot my Ironmen Intimidator also (and my X-mag) when I want to throw paint.

With my timmy and with a Halo B on top I can shoot the whole hopper at 17bps in one long burst of paint...

I was playing mid/front yesterday and shooting around 7 pods a game in a 7 man event... some of my back players were only carrying 5-6 pods :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :p

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by PsychoBaller
...I'm not into the other models with all the fancy dragon milling, and swervy crap... Just a 2k2 GZ Timmy, nice and plain...

How about 1/2 GZ and 1/2 Dragon?

Here's my fav Timmy... it belongs to "unseen" from PBN:

http://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/17545/p/263969_2756484259253841481_vl.jpg

http://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/17545/p/263968_1907204426742900743_vl.jpg

http://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/17545/p/263967_9021961931279841370_vl.jpg

http://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/17545/p/263970_8732087114338029248_vl.jpg


manike,

That's just insane!:D How do you like your Timmy? Can you discribe any differences between your Timmy and your Xmag? Feel? Maintenance? Performance? Reliability?

Thanks!:)

[SlipknotX556]

That is the most sexiest timmy I have ever seen.

[darklord]

Hey, speaking of GZ, aren't they coming out with their own matrix? Heard it was supposed to be pretty nice...

[manike]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
manike,
That's just insane!:D How do you like your Timmy? Can you discribe any differences between your Timmy and your Xmag? Feel? Maintenance? Performance? Reliability?

I Keep getting asked this, in person and via PM/e-mail.

To be honest it is still early days for me with the Intimidator.

I developed my paintball experience shooting mags, so shooting my RT and X-mag just always feel very natural for me. I love the size, feel and shape of them (especially the C&C but then obviously I am biased to it's looks ;) ) They always come to my shoulder and point naturally which helps with snap shooting. I love the low profile height of the X-mag. I can still use my RT and shoot very well with it. It's a gun that feels like 'home' when I come back to using it. I do like shooting my X-mag (but then I do my cocker for different reasons... hmmhmhmhm back block goodness ;) and my timmy come to think of it!)

I can't say a difference on maintenance or reliability, I abuse all of my kit, it gets used hard, it see's mud and rain and I don't worry about diving into the gravel incase it will scratch my anno :D Both have taken serious abuse so far and kept going. I've done something to the electronics of my X-mag at the World Cup, but that was probably after many hundreds of thousands of shots (I did over 50,000 with it in the first week I got it! just playing around with it) and it was quite probably down to a bad charger that I had. I've had to put an adjustable ram cap on my timmy to make sure the eyes always register the balls.

I put 28 cases of paint (mainly hellfire) through my X-mag without a break!

Both seem to be simple to work on. Both have some nice design features. I like the X-mag's modular system and option for manual, and removeable battery packs so I can have several and swap them easily. Swapping out batteries in the Timmy is a PITA in comparison. I like the Timmy's grips and quick strip bolt and eye over ride by pushing the bolt forwards and reset also.

I'm glad new X-mags are coming with on/off switched... although mine doesn't have one.

Performance, they are both fast guns, I find it slightly easier to shoot the timmy fast. But people have told me I am scary fast with both ;) My paint consumption has gone up a little since getting the timmy.

I know I don't agree with the marketing practices of WAS, but I do give him credit for making excellent electronics which work very, very well.

I think the x-mag with level 10 set up properly is gentler on paint than the Timmy, but the Timmy doesn't have any real faults in that area either. (especially after slowing the bolt a touch by bringing down the LPR).

I get +/- 3 fps with the X-mag and now that I have the timmy set up how I like it (took me a while to tune it in and now it's at 50psi LPR and 10ms dwell) I'm getting similar results, my last chrono check at the Tourny this last weekend was 290, 290, 296. I use diablo paint exclusively.

At the rates of fire I shoot neither has noticeable shoot down :)

I prefer the efficiency of the Timmy. Which considering I tend to shoot a lot of paint can be important.

When it comes down to it, it's a hard choice, they are both at the pinnacle of paintball guns and ultimately I think it's just personal preference. I would be very happy with either, I'm just lucky to have both (oh and a race cocker... ;) )

Unseen's gun is very nice...

[SlipknotX556]

Manike has a timmy? :eek: Now, ill have to steal that at the cup this year. :)

[manike]

You have to actually come to the Cup to get the chance at any of my guns... ;)

[SlipknotX556]

Its not my fault, but now, My friend has a car, he has to compete in the cup, so I just get a ride up their. If you bring your ironman timmy, my blue to black 2k2 timmy can hang with your timmy. :D

[Jack & Coke]

Stick em together and maybe you can get a mini timmy.:p

[SlipknotX556]

I was thinkin that, but you would take it home? Me or Manike, I think I would make a better father, because I am younger, I need another gun, manike has to many already. :)

[Evil Bob]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
I think the best thing about this is that it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy and effortless to do.

Using the traditional finger walking method, I struggle a lot to maintain a consistant string. If I'm lucky and my fingers and knuckles don't seize up on me, I figure I can hit around 7-10 cycles per second. Not too fast compared to today's super finger walking mofos.

However, it is really really really easy to gitty up to 18-20 cps using the AO roller finger METHOD.

Did I mention it's easy?

Cheers!;)

Get yourself over to your local musical instrument shop and grab a finger exerciser for guitar players and use it when you're sitting idle (TV, riding the bus/train, etc.). A few weeks of squeezing and you'll drasticly increase your ROF via trigger walking.

-Evil Bob

[Jack & Coke]

good tip, I'll look into it...

[Curly]

Thats an awesome method J&C too bad i dont have the stock trigger on my gz right now.

I have a system x reaper trigger and i really like it for walking. At practice the other day i was emptying my entire off the break in one entire string like Manike was talking about. You cannot beat the Timmy + Was Board + Halo combination in my opinion. Its just nuts how fast these guns are.

[Python14]

Dude, I tried that on my defiant and I don't think I've ever heard it go that fast before. It was a constant click that got faster and faster. Man, I only wish I had a HALO.

[Jack & Coke]

I wonder if this style of trigger raking (roller trigger method - sans roller:)) will be banned soon? :(

My trigger is 1 shot per 1 trigger cycle.

NO BOUNCE.

However, it is actually 4 shots per 1 finger cycle.

Trigger raking maybe legal according to today's rules, but it's most certainly not consistant with the spirit of "1 pull = 1 shot".

I would not doubt it if leagues end up rewritting the language in their rules to ban trigger raking/rolling.

Using this method, it is WAY TOO EASY to rip 20 on todays electros.

Although I couldn't gitty up to the speed and consistancy of my GZ, I was able to get some nice bps on my friend's IR3 this afternoon... I think his IR3 trigger was maybe too weird of a shape to take advantage of trigger raking.

What ever happened to the developement of the "fiddle stick"? Wasn't someone working on it for the Emag? manike?

[rdb123]

Darn. Too bad the emag trigger doesn't rake as well as that. =(

[sneakyhacker420]

now i really want to do that to my impulse trigger... will the washer and pin method work on a blade trigger??

[manike]

Jack is walking a trigger in the spirit of the rules? What about doing it with say 3 fingers?

Yeah I have some triggers designed to help you do this.

I also believe it is legal in the current rules and would be tough to ban.

Why would they want to? It's fair, everyone can do it. It's not FA or a danger to anyone in a safe zone or accidental discharge situation...

[Mr Pink]

I would far rather have people 'nub-rubbing' then having bouncing triggers - it's much safer and how are you going to enforce a ban? Only approved techniques/positions for pulling the trigger?:rolleyes: :D

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by manike
Jack is walking a trigger in the spirit of the rules? What about doing it with say 3 fingers?

IMHO... "spirit of the rules"? NO:(.


Originally posted by manike

...Yeah I have some triggers designed to help you do this...

Oh yeah! I forgot about that one... you talkin' about this trigger?

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/tt2.jpg

(http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64073&highlight=manike+and+trigger+and+up+and+down)

What ever happen to that trigger?

[Jack & Coke]

WOW!

I just installed the Wicked Switch.

http://www.wickedairsportz.com/images/wickedswitch2.jpg

http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products/equalizer.htm#BM10

At first glance, it looks like the same exact switch as the stock one which came with my gun... except for a couple of differences. This switch appears to be from the same manufacture... the only visible difference is the model number inked on the switch.

The switch is noticeably softer to activate. :tup:

I installed the Wicked Switch normally. It worked great. However, I could still feel the "click" of the button. I wanted to reduce the feeling of the click as much as possible.

I ended up installing the Wicked Switch Upside down - trigger set-screw contacting the mid portion of the leaf - as oppossed to the trigger set screw sitting directly over the "button".

This made the switch even lighter due to the leverage advantage of the leaf.

Now, if I did not have a trigger return spring installed, the speed and distance of the trigger return would depend only on the inverted Wicked Switch.. which is not enough! The effective return pressure is too short (contributes to bounce) and not quick enough to reset for super fast finger action.

The solution was to use a trigger return spring. However, as we know, the stock trigger return spring is too stiff. Most Timmy users end up just removing it anyways.

What I did was to pick up a special soft trigger return spring from http://www.centuryspring.com/ (their LA warehouse is a few blocks from my work.:)

They have ANY spring you need! Millions...

Anyways, I tested out a few samples of varying strength.

They were .36 #/in, .59#/in, and .75 #/in...

I liked the .36 #/in spring the best... although the .59#/in spring was also a good choice.

In the end I choose the lighter spring, since I could always adjust the spring tension to stronger by using the set-screw... whereas I would not be able to make the .59#/in spring any softer by the same method.

What I have now is a soft yet quick return trigger with a comfortable and safe amount of trigger travel. NO BOUNCE WHOOPEE!! My Equalizer de-bounce is at 3 ms... so far so good:)

I don't know if its just me, but I am able to walk my fingers on the trigger better(maintaining a more consistant rhythm) if the trigger travel is around 1 - 1.25 mm as opposed to as small as possible... (i.e. 0.25 or less)

WHEW!

Oh yeah... my GZ rips EVEN easier than it did in my first post of this thread!

Muhahahaha!!!!! :P :P :P

EDIT: (Correction: in the attached photo, the force of the spring should be in #/in not #/ft.... ma bad:p )

[boomerfoxtrot]

Jack..

I own a GZ... and am looking for the best way to soften the pull.... could I take the stock micro switch and flip it? I've also though about playing with it in other ways to come up with a good quick soft pull... Thanks for the advice on what your doing...

also, what are the "part numbers" on the lightest spring your using? so I can call and get some....

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by boomerfoxtrot
Jack..

I own a GZ... and am looking for the best way to soften the pull.... could I take the stock micro switch and flip it?



Yes!

But keep in mind that the original reason for orientating the switch, where it's button sits directly under the trigger set-screw, was to minimize the occurance of trigger bounce caused by any flex or resonance in the leaf of the switch. This idea was considered a factor which, IMHO may or may not, contributed to trigger bounce when the triggers were dialed in for minimum travel and maximum sensitivity (i.e. bump the air tank and the trigger fires).

However, with the creation of the Equalizer and it's "debounce" feature (trigger scan delay), any such unwanted trigger bounce can be dialed out.



Originally posted by boomerfoxtrot
...also, what are the "part numbers" on the lightest spring your using? so I can call and get some....

I'm using Part Number 2505 (.36#/in) in combination with the Wicked Switch.

Good luck!:)

[boomerfoxtrot]

one more thing..

the pro shop here.. their team shoots the 02 timmys and dragons...
they all run the WAS board... but when I asked about it for the GZ they said that there was no need for it, I have a GZ with the 2.02 something SOB in it...

they said that the WAS board was for the LCD models.. and that there would be no way to adjust them in the GZ cause it doesn't have an LCD... now, with that said..
what makes it worth the $120 to get the WAS board in the GZ?

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by boomerfoxtrot
one more thing..

the pro shop here.. their team shoots the 02 timmys and dragons...
they all run the WAS board... but when I asked about it for the GZ they said that there was no need for it, I have a GZ with the 2.02 something SOB in it...

they said that the WAS board was for the LCD models.. and that there would be no way to adjust them in the GZ cause it doesn't have an LCD... now, with that said..
what makes it worth the $120 to get the WAS board in the GZ?

Not true. You can program dwell, debounce, and eye modes very easily via the trigger.

Soon you can program everything via the equalink (PDA or PC)

The Equalizer is FASTER than the 2.02 board.

The Equalizer has FORCED mode for the eyes... this feathure alone is worth the upgrade.

more info here: http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products/equalizer.htm#BM4

My GZ is much FASTER now than before... BIG DIFFERENCE!:D

Get it... great product... you'll love it!:)

[Curly]

Yes the was board is definitely worth it. My GZ just rocks with this board. The forced eye mode as J&C stated is worth it alone.

[boomerfoxtrot]

ok, so soon you will be able to work and set it via pc... will that be the same was board, or a new one? if it is a new one, then I will wait...

[Curly]

Any new was board you buy now will work fine with the computer link that is suppossed to come out in the next three weeks acoording to www.wickedairsportz.com

[thecavemankevin]

You can make you switch just like the WAS one on your own

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37414&highlight=trigger+job+on+hyper+frame

This should save you 10 bucks or whatever WAS charges.:)
I did this on my hyperframe and yes, it feels a good bit softer and shorter.

[Jack & Coke]

Great tip!

How does the new switch mode feel?

Do you still get a "click"?

Thanks for sharing:)

http://www.msu.edu/~slouppau/hyper2.jpg

http://www.msu.edu/~slouppau/hyper3.jpg

[thecavemankevin]

very soft now

3 quarters and a penny....i forget how much that is 7/10 of an ounce i think?

[boomerfoxtrot]

I fliped the switch over, and I still have the "click" ...
but it is softer...
=]


working on ways to make it even softer...

[rdb123]

Hate to bring this one back from the dead, but Jack, you might find this post interesting: http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209215&perpage=21&pagenumber=1

...especially because I mentioned your test in it and someone asserted that it was a hoax. ;)

-Ron

[SlipknotX556]

J&C, while I was playing with my friends 2k2 today, I decided to try the roller trigger method, it works, but it was harder to do because he has a dragon trigger on his timmy, the stock GZ triggers are better grooved for rolling. But the method really does work.

[Jack & Coke]

I got a black clam shell 45 frame for my GZ.

It comes with the bob long talon trigger...

It's really easy to rip on this frame.

The trigger area is much larger that the stock GZ frame.

Although I'm used to the stock GZ frame and trigger, I'm sure I'll have no problem getting comfortable with this new frame.

I've already been able to easily hit 19 bps...

[Jack & Coke]

Next up... anno the body gloss black... yum!