reg seat good vs. bad

[jimmyjobob]

reg seats seem to be the source and or solution to many mag problems. my question is how do you tell a good one from a bad one? i thought i read one of the mods (i think rob) referring to the seat as bad and being 'dome' shaped?

the reg snaps in to the reg, wide side down right? in other words there is a top and bottom or do reg seats start even and flatten out? please enlighten.

[davej946]

Watch the video, or read the manual. These are the best ways to learn about you mag. BTW the Reg Seat fits "wide" end into the regulator (rear-most part of the "guts") so that it "snaps" in. As far as telling when it's bad, I only know to check it when you have velocity problems.

Good Luck,


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David M. Jones
Proud Automag Owner

[BlackVCG]

The reg. seat thickness, when new, should be .130" I've had brand new ones at .132", but those are still usable. What you want to do before you install a new reg. seat into the gun is to take the seat and place it into the pocket on the reg. portion of the valve (back half). Then, looking straight down on top off it you'll see that the reg. seat is transparent enough that you can see the center hole in the reg. body. Using good light and making sure you're looking straight down on it, make sure that the hole in the reg. seat and the hole in the reg. body are concentric. If the reg. seat hole was punched wrong, then the holes won't align properly and you'll need to find another seat.

As long as that is good, then put a dab of oil on it and then screw it together. Put that valve back in your gun and DO NOT take the two halves apart again until you start noticing drop-off or inconsistent velocity.

Oh, BTW - while you are at it, with the velocity adjuster nut on the back tight and the spring pack and piston in the housing, take off the reg. body from the front valve half and then pull out just the reg. valve pin (the thing that looks like a german hand grenade). With the seat in the pocket on the valve, take that pin and put it through the hole it normally goes through so that the long end of the pin rests in the little pocket of the piston. Then hold it straight up so that the bottom of the pin faces the ceiling and look at the gap between the closest end of the pin to the reg. seat. That's the air flow gap that is between the reg. valve pin and the seat.

Want more proof that the 8-hole mods. can't flow anymore air than the stock reg. or proof that the on/off valve isn't the choke point? Well, do what I just said and you'll see why.

[cphilip]

Here is a picture of Rob after typing that last post...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=193146&a=10953897&p=46908312&Sequence=0&res=high

[RobAGD]

** Repost from another thread **

Ok a few things here again

#1 First shot hots happen because the reg seat isnt making a perfect seal between the Reg Seat and the Reg Valve pin. This can be from debrits, 2 differnt seal marks ( happens when you try to re use a reg seat after you take the reg apart ) and off center cut holes.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6823946/Retro%20AGD/robagd/parts/regseat-copy3.jpg

What I have here are some shots of Reg seats.

Top Left is a new seat and right under that is how the Reg Pin sits on a new seat, and you get the idea how the impressions are made in the seat and a seal is made.

The Red circle is the seal made by the Reg Valve pin on the Reg Seat. It should be close to centered on the hole in the seat itself, like in this picture. The Gray ring is a seal make from the front half of the AIR valve, this isn't important, it's just there because when you look at the Seat you will see it.

The Bad Seal is an off center. This is TYPICALLY from a Reg Seat where the hole was punched off center. The Blue Arrow is point to the area that will cause a problem. That thin seal area can cause a first shot hot problem because as pressure builds on the seal area it will seep more pressure pass the seal and you get a boomer. String shots are fine because there isn't time to build up excessive pressure.
The next pic is a side view of a seat. The seat has started to deform filling the seal area with material. The Pink arrow is pointing to the dome itself and this can cause shoot down and erratic velocity.

The next pic is a shot os a reg seat at 10x. I use a photo loop to look at seats to see if there is a problem with dirt and debits in the dealing area. This can cause a complete lose of seal ( hots shots over the chrono ) and first shot hot. If you see this kind of pitting you have to clean out your whole gun, and you air lines and maybe you CO2 tanks ( or N2 tanks if you have no filters. The is why we push for having filters on the guns. Those green arrows point to what would look like small dents, some are livable but other that are close to the red sealing area are cause for problems.

The last pic has to different seal marks. The problem is that when you have over lapping seal rings that leads to hots shots and first shot hots and leaking out the back. This is also why you should never reuse a Reg Seat. You will never get the same seal lineup twice. So when you break you back halves apart make sure to replace the Reg Seat.

I hope this help you all diagnose your problems.

-Robert

[cphilip]

Well gee Rob...is that the best you can do? http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

No seriously thanks I really enjoyed that. Great diagrams! I think I will steal them and put them in my files.

------------------
Quote: Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy
Author: Benjamin Franklin

[jimmyjobob]

damn i love this forum. thanks for all the info guys, this helps alot.

[Major Jam]

Awesome! Best info I've got. I've been making two mistakes all along. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif (now fixed.)

It's all good!

[slayer]

they should make a forum: "Rob and BlackVCG lay the law on markers", and put all his awesome posts in it. Thanks Rob.

[EnW]

Why is it so hard for me to screw the two halves back together? Does the spring need to sit all the way down in the valve pocket? Mine doesn't seem to want to go all the way down.

[BlackVCG]

Your problem with screwing the two halves together is that you probably just need a bit of oil on the reg. body o-ring. The spring that holds the pin in is just there to hold it. Make sure that the pin is centered in the hole in the piston, otherwise you'll have problems screwing the two halves back together and bend the pin. It should get pretty tight when you start compressing the reg. seat and the reg. body o-ring is starting to rub on the front valve half.

Apache-

Regulation in the Mag begins at the air chamber. If you held the trigger back, thus closing the on/off, the air pressure up to the top of the pin would be roughly equivalent to the input from the tank.

[wyn1370]

has anyone else had problems with reg seats being too small?
I've got about 4 reg seats (tried two different AGD parts kits) that won't stay in the reg. I put them in and they are too loose. And before you ask, I've tried to put it in both ways to make sure that it's not upside down.
These are AGD reg seats going into an all stock minimag valve.

[MikeCouves]

Ah man are you tellin me since I took my reg seat out I have to get a new one? ****ty, I just wanted to clean everything in there too...

[Dark_One]

Where do I get a filter? I think part of my problem is dirt getting into my valve.

[T F]

For one reason. I have very rarely had a problem with a first hot shot or a bad reg seat. I have used a mag for about 4 years and played almost every week. after every session I took my mag halves apart, clearned the arear with q-tips and the like, oiled the reg seat and put them back together. Now I am being told that I should seal the two halves and forget about it. My point is that if you are careful and dilligent I think you can prolong seat life by a careful cleaning and oiling like I described above. I may be drunk but in the 4 years that I have shot I mag I have replaced my reg seat perhaps 5 times.

Is this odd, what is the service life of a reg seat???

TF

PS> I will say this and perhaps this is the key. In all the time in using my mag I fill my own SCUBA tanks and the SCUBA fill station owner prides himself on clean filters and clean fills. Perhaps I owe more of this too slean air rather than clean reg seats...

[MikeCouves]

Yeah how often should you replace the reg seat during your playing season?

[RobAGD]

Only when you have some velocity problems. I have had teh same reg seat in a gun over 2 years. It just depends.

-Robert

[MidgetFista]

wow.

I didn't know there was a wrong way to have the reg seat on. Looks like i'm gonna have to check it when i get home :)

cya

neil

[Kdog]

I should not un-screw my reg evey day and I should hold my trigger when I air up? right? (its a level 7 mag) thanks
-Kdog-

[BlackVCG]

Correct.

[XxoneshotxX]

Can anyone tell me what the measurements are of the reg seat (ID / OD / Thickness)? I would also like to know what it is made from. I have heard they are made of EPDM, is this true?

I would be grateful for any help!

Paul

[zeb]

y do u have to hold the trigger in when u gas????

[MikeCouves]

Yeah can someone fill me in on WHY. I always tell mag toters to hold the trigger in when gassing up, they look at me like I just kicked their marker or something...

Isn't it so it's easy on the seals? So when you let off the trigger when all the gas is in, it will be just like letting off the trigger after shooting?

[rikkter]

mainly for the seals. so they can sit in correct and all that. then when you realease. it would operate like usal, like filling the chamber up etc

[Dayspring]

Does that apply to all mags? RT and Emag? Cuz I've never done it in the year or so I've had the gun.

[TheJester]

well i've taken my halves apart a couple times, quiet a few actually, but i've never had any problems w/ the reg seat, i used to check it alot when i was using Co2, to keep it clean, and it seems to be fine still, i don't do it as much now i'm using nitro so why is it bad to take it apart?. but in terms of holding the trigger, i think it's just easier on the gun, cause the gun thinks it's just cycleing, not all of a sudden getting thrown into place

[rikkter]

my guess is it just makes your seals last longer. and unscrewing and rescrewing the reg part will cause different punctures in the regseat, and eventually make it wear out quicker.
dayspring: my guess is yes because the valves are all pretty much the same. so yeah it would apply to all mags.

[Demobilized]

will my gun just absoulutely suck it up, if i dont replace the reg seat? I was cleaning it for the firsttime today and following the insturctions by Black, i neglected to see that i was removing the reg seat. But anyways i was planning on playing next weekend then when i came home clean it and replace it.

[Mag_SEAL-6]

i have an RT Pro, had it for 2 years and my friend thinks the reg seat is malfunctioninfg or something because when I gas it up, it fires once or sometimes twice and excess air shoots out of the back of the valve. when it was brand new the very first time I gassed it up, this happened. it scared the crap outta me, and it shot this smelly dark junk, most likely oil, out of the alan wrench hole where you adjust the velocity. no one's posted here in a long time, but any ideas? oh, the input is a normal 800 or 850 from a crossfire 3k preset. thanks

[Kevn 419]

i was just wonderin if the reg. seat o-ring is supposed to be loose on the piston? :confused:

[TheTramp]

Are you talking about an Retro/E-=Mag/X or a classic valve with both halfs stainless steel? One uses a thick flat on two sides seat and the other an o-ring (thick seat = classic).

Either way, the piston should be able to slide fairly freely. It's the wide part at the top that does the sealing so rod itself doesn't have to be a tight fit.

[Orion33]

also if you have reg problems..it can be a good idea to get the piston spring changed...

ive found they compress and change shape easily..

i bought a very old mag..and i coudljnt figure out why it wasnt shooting right..i changed every oring in the gun..then was told to order a new spring and it worked like a charm

[rikkter]

holy..
that bored to go through a years worth of pages? :wow:

[Snyiper]

holy..
that bored to go through a years worth of pages? :wow:

True but some very good info...should be a sticky!!!!!!!! :clap:

Glenn