Tom: FN 303 and your OC balls save a life

[Mango]

I know this isen't exactly paintball related, I just wanted Tom to see this.

Tom,

This week at the Academy we had instruction from Ret. Capt. Bill Shriver, Gloucester Township P.D. instructing us in Use of Force, and he told us how just last week, there was a barricaded suspect sitting in his house with a knife to the throat of his 6 year old daughter, screaming that he would kill her then himself. Well, luckily, Gloucester Twp. was outfitted with 8 FN 303's and your OC Projectiles, 3 shots later and some burnt eyes, he dopped the knife and released the girl and promptly went to jail. :)

Just wanted to let you know that, I don't know how often you get reports from the field. I was surprised to hear that every major department here in South Jersey is outfitted with 303's and the OC balls!

[magman007]

So Mango, you may get to play paintball again afterwards! just with the newest technology!


THats great to hear. Glouchester eh? did it make the news? the fn 303 i mean? I know thats in the nbc 10 viewing area, and well, im just wondering thats all!

[AGD]

WOW!! Thats GREAT! We don't get updates on whats happening in the field. If you hear of any more please send them along. We were actually debating about how effective the OC rounds would be, I guess this settles it!

Thanks

AGD

[Python14]

The AGD Crime fighters!
That's pretty cool.

[magman007]

Mango, if you can get the video coverage(if there was any report etc) Post it up on ao, either that, or givr a call to NBC10 and send a coppy out to tom! im sure he would like that!

[AGD]

Now guys think about what you would do if you were in that situation. If you had to take your tourney marker and take the bad guy out without harming the little girl.

Many brag about how their gun is more accurate etc etc but no ones life is on the line. We gave up many years in the regular paintball business to make a story like this have a happy ending. When our stuff shoots, it has to work...period. I don't want to be explaining to a crying mother that it must have been bad paint or something else.

To most in the industry this is just a game and you can spin your promotions any way you want. To us its a social responsiblity and when non lethal weapons proliferate all over the world I'll be glad I had a part in it.

AGD

[magman007]

tom, you should be extreemly happy about this, the fn303 is an amazing piece of work, and the time and energy you guys put into it, im sure will never go un noticed. It is an amazing piece of work to hold, let alone i cant amagine how it is like to fire one and actually hit what you want! good job tom!

[Mango]

Tom: Unfortunatly it did not make the news to my knowledge, I spoke with Capt. Shriver about it after class, told him about how I was at AGD and had the tour with you etc etc. and he told me that they (the Departments) LOVE to have an alternative to deadly force, and will use it whenever possible.

For instance, he gave me this scenario:

A suspect with a knife can travel 21 feet to attack an Officer before most officers can even get thier pistol aimed at center mass. Most police officers will not risk shots beyond 15 yards with thier pistols because of liabilities. Now, with a less than lethal marker like the FN and with OC balls, they can easily tag suspects 20-50 yards if need be! AND not be held nearly as liable as they would be if they had discharged thier firearm and missed!

Just food for thought, and more of a reason that we need technology like you have given us (The Law Enforcement Community). :D

[cphilip]

Originally posted by AGD
Now guys think about what you would do if you were in that situation. If you had to take your tourney marker and take the bad guy out without harming the little girl.

Half the time it takes me a couple shots to get on target anyway. With any marker! Aint nobodies fault but mine though so you better duck little girl!!!!:D

Good stuff Mango! thanks for the story!

[Mango]

:D

[jimmyjobob]

FYI, in light of the G8 summit in savannah, ga, officials begun installing 8 foot high black barriers around federal buildings and other planning offices.

"As you can see, you'd have trouble getting your toes into the fencing," Ed Decoste of the Federal Protective Service said "By the time you got to the top, you'd be marked by a 303." A 303 he said, is an air rifle that can be loaded with paint pellets - meant to instantly identify anyone federal police consider trouble."

-Savannah Morning News, Monday June 7

id say the paint is a little hard to wipe off.

[Muzikman]

It's good to see the FN303 getting use. It's an amazing tool. And pretty cool looking too;)

[Jeffy-CanCon]

That's a good story. It must feel great to know something you made has helped to save a life.

What does "OC" stand for, and how does it work?

[Thordic]

Oleoresin capsicum.

Basically the stuff that makes hot peppers hot.

All over your face.

[Duck Hunt]

Great to hear! "Because quality always shoots straight" ;-)

OC can be nasty stuff. I personally have never been hit in the face with it, but, I do process habanero peppers all the time. I'm talking pounds of these things, washed, turned into a paste and then cooked. Using hot water to wash out the containers is the only way to get the stains out but it creates quite a nasty steam you don't want to breathe in ;-)

Sean

[SIGSays]

sell to the public? :mad:

[shartley]

Good job. It is good to see any product prevent death or serious injury.

But to answer your question…. I would take any marker on the market that was properly maintained and had the proper setup for similar duty and use it in a similar situation (as was described). I have been both on the playing field, and behind a badge, and can say that the insinuations being made about other products in the PAINTBALL industry and the actual use of this one (the 303) in comparison are not quite honest, nor portray a realistic depiction of the situation. Nor should they really be compared at all, and actually say nothing about AGD’s standard paintball products (which are fantastic, but NOT because the 303 is a great less than lethal tool for LE).

We are talking about hitting a human size target at reasonable range, not sniping the knife out of the hand of the man at great distances. And honestly, almost any marker now days can do that with no problem (human sized target).

You might as well have the folks at WDP or any other company come here and ask how the 303 would hold up at any top paintball tournament in a speedball setting. The comparison there would be unfair as well… don’t you think?

Apples and oranges folks… both fruits, but really should not be compared.

Yes, it is a great piece of equipment, no doubt. And great job on making it and selling it to Law Enforcement. I am glad you made that business decision. Keep up the good work.

[wobbles82]

Wow, pretty odd stuff. Mango you said Gloucester Township..I live in the area, any idea what town it was and all? Suprised none of us locals heard a dang thing :( . Anywho, isn't shooting a dude taking a risk? I mean even though im sure those things hurt like no other, couldnt he have still ya know..went throught with his plan? I guess they were sure that 3 quick rounds would be enough to stop him? Just wondering.

[Vanced]

Now guys think about what you would do if you were in that situation. If you had to take your tourney marker and take the bad guy out without harming the little girl.

AGD

Adds just that little extra to " Because Quality Always Shoots Straight..." :D

Great Story ... Now I just hope 3 kids who just left wall mart don't go shoot up a retirement home picnic or something and go ruin the warm fuzzy feeling...

[GoatBoy]

Wow, pretty odd stuff. Mango you said Gloucester Township..I live in the area, any idea what town it was and all? Suprised none of us locals heard a dang thing :( . Anywho, isn't shooting a dude taking a risk? I mean even though im sure those things hurt like no other, couldnt he have still ya know..went throught with his plan? I guess they were sure that 3 quick rounds would be enough to stop him? Just wondering.

That's actually exactly what I was wondering... I'm no LEO though, shartley's probably the one with the best knowledge on this.

I guess the presumption is that if he hasn't knifed the kid already, he's obviously hesitating to do it. Kind of like there's very few real "attempted suicides"... You have dead people, and people crying for attention (?) Still, someone's going to have to make the decision and take responsibility if something goes wrong...

Personally, I can't find any leniency in my heart for someone who does that to a child, much less his own child. Would they have done the same thing if the guy had been armed with a gun instead of a knife?



As far as some tournament level marker being used in the same situation... I would absolutely not use some 'tournament level' marker, if by definition this implied any electro based gun with conventional feed system. I see no reason to involve electronics in this sort of situation and device, nor the rather random nature of... almost all the hoppers really. "tournament level" markers are built for consistency within 'safe' parameters, and built for speed and volume. Not sure if any of those apply to this situation. If I wanted to get a job done, I wouldn't want to hear about how the thing chopped a ball because the eye didn't like the color of the OC shell or something, or the HES sensor was acting goofy due to the software revision in the electronics. I'd want a round chambered, ready to go, no questions asked. Pull the trigger, round shoots out, the next one's chambered, no "if's" involved. Looking at the design, that's what it looks like it's tailored for.



The "bragging about accuracy" thing I think falls to the bottom considering range and velocity that we're talking about, as shartley mentioned.

[ZapTheMad]

I dream of the night when I wake up in the middle of the night to some poor schmuck breaking into my car. I'm gonna "tournament level" his *** and give the cops bright green spots to look for in the process :)

[RenagadeOfFunk]

...I WANT SOME OC Rounds!!!...i hate having no seasonings and only a paintball gun around to spice up my meals... @ 300 fps :)...thats fast food... :wow:

[Muzikman]

First off, the 303 is NOT a paintball guns. The projectiles, although .68 cal, would not feed in a normal paintball gun unless you loaded one at a time. Two, a normal paintball gun would not have the power to deliver a 303 round any distance.

There would be no point in selling a 303 to the public as (A) It shoots normal paintballs at about 400fps, (B) With a normal paintball it doesn't shoot any better than any other paintball gun.

As far as if they would have used it if it had been a gun, and not a knife. I doubt it. Although the 303 packs quite a punch and the OC would make ya cry, it's not going to stop you from pulling the trigger of a gun. (on a side note, the thread was originally started over a year ago, someone brought it back up because of the FN303's use at the G8 summit in savannah, ga.)

Just incase you guys don't know what one looks like.

FN303 - Stand-a-lone
http://www.spa-simrad.com/FN303.jpg

FN303 - Mounted on M16
http://www.spa-simrad.com/M16303.jpg

FN OC Round (As you see, although .68 cal, not really a ball)
http://www.spa-simrad.com/orange.jpg


More Info - http://www.spa-simrad.com/fn303launcher.htm

[Muzikman]

...I WANT SOME OC BALLS!!!...i hate having no seasonings and only a paintball gun around to spice up my meals... @ 280 fps :)...thats fast food... :wow:

I got 5 FN OC rounds..one sitting on top of my monitor;)

[rx2]

To answer one of the above questions, any time you try to neutralize a hostage situation with force, you are taking a great risk. I am sure they wouldn't just pull on the 303 for any scenario. Every one is different, and I am sure that they had enough information to make the judgement that this was a case where they would be able to use such force without too much of a risk of him actually killing her. For example, if the man had been holding a pistol, with the hammer cocked, a mere flinch could be enough to fire the weapon, provided the mechanism is tuned properly (it is akin to triggering a mouse trap). In such a case, you would probably not want to use such a means for ending the situation. You could still easily pull the trigger after being hit. In such a case, you would need to either sever the radial nerve (which is not feasible in real-life situations), or destroy the brain, which in itself is a crap-shoot, even for the best trained marksman (real life is different from training).

Anyhow, it certainly is a good alternative. My father was in law enforcement for over 25 years (during which he was involved in the somewhat famous Hough riots), and I have seen what can happen to officers when they actually have to use lethal force. Aside from the emotional stress associated with killing someone, you also have to endure evaluations, criticism, and in some cases law suits. These tools are a great alternatives, in the right situations, and should prove invaluable for improving the safety of officers, and the public.

[spaz7676]

Those OC rounds must be great for riot control. I wonder if they have anything like that over in iraq. I would think an OC round would be perfect for stopping looters and dealing with riots. After all, a OC round from a 303 would send a much better message to the iraqi people about why we are there than a 5.56mm round from an m16.

[Muzikman]

Spaz: You use OC rounds when your life is not in danger. Sorry, if I am being shot at by an AK47, I am not gonna be shooting back with a paintball:)

[spaz7676]

Contrary to popular beliefe, not every iraqi is running around the streets shooting people randomly with AK47's. There are many cases where the army has to police unarmed civilans doing things like rioting and looting. I would never suggest using it instead of an m16 when up against someone armed with a gun, but when you deal with someone who's breaking into a store it would be very useful.

[Muzikman]

Also, I have a feeling that then France and the UN would be screaming that they are using "Chemical" weapons.

[spaz7676]

Also, I have a feeling that then France and the UN would be screaming that they are using "Chemical" weapons.

Possibly. I'm not sure what the deffinition of chemical weapons is according to international law. I wouldn't be suprized however if more leaders in the international community call for some updating to the 'rules of war.' There are so many different weapon systems that blur the lines between what should be allowed and what shouldn't be. Like should we allow sound based weapons capable of making entire crowds of people loose control of their bodily functions? Or should we allow a laser based weapon the Russians were devoloping that was designed to perminently damage the vision of pilots? Right now private security for Haliberton contractors in Iraq are allowed to use frangible bullets (very very deadly and nearly impossible to treat the wounds they inflict) and our soldiers are stuck using ball arounds that are less leathal than ammunition you can buy over the counter at a hunting store. Hopefully there will be a push soon in the UN to update some of these rules to the 21st centry. After all, it's in everyones best interest to allow some chemical based weapons like the OC round.

P.S. If I ever get shipped off to Iraq, I'm writing home to ask for some good old American hallow points. Maybe even some of those frangibles if my folks can get them.

[Carbon]

P.S. If I ever get shipped off to Iraq, I'm writing home to ask for some good old American hallow points. Maybe even some of those frangibles if my folks can get them.
Woot! more international law breaking! yay! :rolleyes:

[davidnj]

Possibly. I'm not sure what the deffinition of chemical weapons is according to international law.


A chemical agent is a substance which is intended for use in military operations to kill, seriously injure or incapacitate people because of its physiological effects. Excluded from this definition are riot control agents, herbicides, smoke and flame.

[spaz7676]

A chemical agent is a substance which is intended for use in military operations to kill, seriously injure or incapacitate people because of its physiological effects. Excluded from this definition are riot control agents, herbicides, smoke and flame.

Ok cool, well I belive the OC round would qualify as a riot control agent.


Woot! more international law breaking! yay!

Yep, and if I can't get away with that I'll ask for a replacement barrel with less of a twist in it so the bullet will atleast tumble a bit when it hits fleash. That and I'd probibly try to 'fix' my M16 so it had a full auto setting again. Stupid bean counters....

[RenagadeOfFunk]

Spaz: You use OC rounds when your life is not in danger. Sorry, if I am being shot at by an AK47, I am not gonna be shooting back with a paintball:)


...i would...they don't have masks :)...10+ balls a second would hurt...and i don't have my real gun at my house...