AO Army, Let Your Voice be Heard!

[AGD]

Troops!

I had a long discussion with a major tournament promoter friend of mine. I tried to tell him that the internet is an untapped source of potential information and feedback on a tournaments performance.

After much discussion the promoters opinion was that it wasn't worth their time to go talk to the people on the net. The promoter felt strongly that all the players want is a cheaper tourney and nothing else.

This struck me as a MAJOR chance to use the power of the AO Army to influence the paintball world. The answer to the simple question "What WOULD you be willing to pay more for in a tournament?" could have immedeate and lasting changes in our sport.

So my men! I ask you!! For the good of the whole, to slay the naysayers, to boldly go where no tournament has gone before!

What would you pay MORE for at a tournament?????


General AGD

[Mook564]

Well, the biggest complaint that I have heard is that there are never enough REFS at the big tournements. More REFS helps to stop the cheaters. As I see it that is well worth some extra money. Good help costs money, and good REFS makes for fair play.:)

[paintball8869]

To be honest with you, I wouldn't pay a dime more than what I pay for a tournament. It's completely ridiculous what people up here pay for tournaments in Massachusetts.

The only real tourney series is the NEPL up here, run by Boston Paintball. They charge $85 a case for crap paint, whatever has been sitting in their storeroom for the longest. Their reffing has gotten better though, which is a big plus. Entrance fee is $250 for novice (5 man). We went through 10 cases last tourney. That's $850+250= 1100 for our team.

There were roughly 80 teams there, and if each team bought 5 cases, that's 400 cases sold. Now they charge $85 per case and roughly buy it for $30-35. So that's $50 per case that they make. 50*400= $20,000 PROFIT.

Entrance pays for all the reffing fees, field fees (renting each individual field), and staff. They don't pay for advertising, as they don't have to. They're the only real tourney series out here.


Now I know there's the PNL as well, but it's not as big and the prices are roughly the same (give or take a few dollars).

So what would I pay more for? I'll pay $10 more for entrance if they drop paint prices $10 per case. Maybe we're the only ones gettin screwed over becuase noone can afford the land up here or the supplies to start a good field right now and start a tournament series. Hopefully someone will in the next year or two and give BPS a good run for their money.

I'm all for cheaper tourneys. Paying more in my opinion is ridiculous.

[Jerhew]

fairness...
a good, fair reffing staff
unbiased...and enough of them to do the job

and good fresh paint...
nothing worse than getting handed a year old case of brand X
(level 10 or not!) NO DIMPLES PLEASE!

really can't think of anything else...

bottom line:
cheap is better(especially to those of us who are poor)
EXCEPT
when it compromises the important aspects of the game

[Jerhew]

pb8869:

you definitely pay more for space in Mass.

heh you can rent a 3 bedroom upper for $350 a month in Buffalo...
don't think you can do that in Boston...

the next couple local tournies I'm looking into...registration is the same but paint is only $65 a case...

[magman007]

you know, Cheeper would be nice, but Look at huntington beach, that freekin ruled.... I would Pay to go to more tournies like that, that is for sure...




Il write more later, its 3:30 hee in chile, im hittin the sack

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by Jerhew
pb8869:

you definitely pay more for space in Mass.

heh you can rent a 3 bedroom upper for $350 a month in Buffalo...
don't think you can do that in Boston...



Hehe, how bout 1250 for a slightly rundown 1 bedroom in Back Bay :)

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

I think people complain about reffing a tad bit to much. People are going to consider bad calls no matter what when they're against them. They is nothing more to do to really improve the reffing. Paintball is to fast a game to have to much better reffing. They have to make a decision in a split second on to what happened. By that time, something else may have happened and the ref might not have even seen it and just base it on what he can. While be it unfair, there's not more that you can do. Only thing is to have camera's on the field or perhaps a booth of some sort above the center 50 where 2 refs could over view the whole field.

Anywho, I would have to say maybe booths or special sections where you can set your gear up instead of just laying around most of the teams' cars. I have a pickup truck that everyone just throws everything in the bed, but most of the time everything is just sprawled out all over the place and disorganized. Maybe a parking seciton with a couple of tables in front of where your cars would go for everyone's gear.

[dansim]

we pay these ridiculus prices in mass cause , well they can charge it because there is no compition...i need a few partners well make our own 7 man leaue...:(

[j.t.]

You guys in Mass should make a drive up to Maine to play if you have to pay that much to play.

Most tournaments up here cost around $100 for entrance fee, and the paint usually runs between $45-$70 a case.

You can be assured that the reffing will always be good since all refs in MRPL tournaments are required to have taken training courses and be certified by the MRPL.

With prices like these I can afford to play in tournaments quite frequently, and there are alot of them to play in too. (although the competition is not as good as in Mass) :D

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Tournaments in the Boston area are ridiculously overpriced, and the two stores who run them are the same places that charge around $80 a case for paint on non-tournament days. It has nothing to do with "meeting their expenses," it is all about greed on their part. I like the Boston Paintball field and hate PNL's field, but in both cases I don't trust the owners to ever do something for the game and price fairly. I couldn't believe the prices of the PNL series and the NEPL series but frankly it's all we got up here. These places would never charge less because they love getting their money, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they raised fees and paint prices and put that money straight into their pockets instead of into the tourneys. Now don't flame me saying "it's a business" because they make money off the field fees, air fees, all the products they sell, etc, etc, they have no reason to rip us off on paint and such. They have never been about helping the paintball scene grow or helping players not sponsored by them get some tournament experience, they are all about greed and only like the customers with thick wallets. It's not the fees that need to be changed in tournaments, it's the people behind the tournament.
Huntington Beach is a great example of someone who thought big but did it for the fans and the players, and look how successful it was. Chuck Hendsch didn't go in there thinking "how can I make the most money from this" or "how can I fix it so my team Dynasty can win" (even though they did, they're good that's why). He did it to get alot of people playing and get alot of fans into it. This is the attitude some of these con-men in the Boston area need to get, but it's not happening. We need a new tourney-focused store to open that prices fairly and runs the kinds of tournamants that non-sponsored people who don't have mommy and daddy funding their paintball habit can afford.

I know I'm rambling, but Mr. Kaye you asked for us to voice our opinions on how to make things bigger, and I assure you although every Boston paintballer reading this agrees with me, there are plenty of towns across US in this same situation, having a few self-centered, greedy store owners run all the tourneys in their town and only looking out for their own sponsored players. The game can be easily made affordable and still run a good tourney, the storeowners just wouldn't be able to rip us off then. And they're not going to stop trying to do that.

[rehme]

i would pay for bette refs and paint not that stuff that has been seating around all season

[JEDI]

Sorry Tom. I dont think I'd want to pay more for anything. $70+ for a case of paint, and $750 team entry (and thats the local scene). Most days to do well, you need more than a case of paint each. My team pools it's paint at all tourneys, and last week we spent $490 on $70 cases of paint.

The two or 3 majors we plan on doing (IAO, World Cup etc.) are going to cost an arm and a leg. Our only saving grace is doing well locally, and selling the prizes to make money for entry fees.

[tremis]

It seems like a good number of high quality refs is the way to go. Some places have good refs, but need more refs. Also heres a thing about paint, make it BYOP. I myself would pay more for a byop event. Then I'm the one who gets to decide the quality of my paint. It seems like most fields need nicer staging areas too.

Tremis

[Jonesie]

Where to begin? ;)

As far as tournament improvements go, I think refs are the ONLY thing I would be willing to pay more for. Fair, unbiased, trained refs.

I would not like to pay more for paint, air, and entry. I know it doesn't cost more than a penny/ball to make paint. So once you get RPS, Draxxus, or whoever charging their 1-2 cent mark-up, then the promoter charging theirs, it get ridiculous! CHEAP PAINT!

And what's with charging for air. That should be part of the entry fee. As a business major, I've seen that it is possible to sqeeze here and there and still make a tidy profit...

Just my pair of pennies.

Dave

[ezrunner]

Tournaments seem to be priced ok now, most of the higher level stuff is sponsored, so those I won't get heavily into.

I think that 3 & 5 man stuff should be cheap to get people into it.

Then 7 & 10 are more since it takes more to put on the event.

Cost should be reasonable and based on the fields, number of teams, and prizes.

I'll pay more if there are great surfaces (Like Xball at world cup. Best grass ever), more prizes (random giveaways), and a lot of teams (I wanna play different people).

-rob

[sniper1rfa]

as has been stated, here in mass the entry fees are rediculous. :(

I wuld pay more for better reffing, as that has always been a problem around here. however, i would absolutely love paying less for either paint or entry.

[Mossman]

I played my first PNL subbing in for some guys on AO nightmare that couldn't make it. I'd say paint quality/price is the only thing I'd complain about. The refs were attentive, didn't botch too many calls that I saw, and the whole thing went smoothly.

While the prices are high, and it's obvious that everyone who is able to is gouging, that is the problem. The CCPB owner dude (don't know his name), knows that if PNL wants to run these huge tourneys, they have no choice but to run it at CCPB. There are no fields within like 100 miles that could handle what CCPB handles. Mike (that's the PNL guy, right?) is therefore paying more for renting out the place than he'd prefer, so he pushes the costs to us by selling us crappy mis-shapen 40 dollar cases for 70 bucks.

I figure if I tie up all my money in a car I won't be tempted to drop 150 bucks on a tourney I don't even do well in :)

[shartley]

I am not a tournament player, but from what I have been reading for years now the question should not be “What would you pay MORE for?”, but should be “What do you think you should get for your money?”.

I see far too often that for the prices people pay, they feel a bit ripped off at the end of the day. This would indicate that tournament organizers should not be looking to how much more they can charge, but trying to FIRST give the players/teams an experience worth the money they are already paying.

What do I see on a regular basis?

… The paint sucked! And it was overpriced!
… The Refs were not knowledgeable and were biased!
… The fields were not maintained well and sucked!
… The prizes were not very good. But we have to settle for what we can get, or not participate.

Etc.

And some of these issues can not be tossed off as “sour grapes” because of a bad call, or expecting more from the paint, etc.

I personally think tournament organizers should FIRST take care of the problems, THEN think about what they can add to increase the price… not the other way around. And players/teams should not have to pay MORE for the things they should already be getting for the prices they currently pay, but are not.

Ooops… that is not what I think they wanted to hear, was it? ;) I think they wanted an easy way to dig deeper into the player’s pockets without having to first fulfill their initial obligations…………

(Note: This post does not include ALL tournaments, but enough fall into this category to make the post valid as a generality.)

[TheJester]

i think it would depend on the type of tourney. there's some of us who have never played in 1 before, and if there's a $500 entrance fee, we prolly won't start getting in to tourney's. but if you have tourney experience, you and your team are confident, and there's a big enough top prize to justify the expenses, then go for it, what do you have to lose? so i think it would be nice to see localized tourney's priced low (which they usually are) and i can see why there would be a considerable jump in price when you start getting into regional and national circuts...they're alot bigger, so they need more capital

[EsPo]

i dont think prizes have anything to do with a tourny, im in it for the fun, and the prizes are just a small extra thing if you win. i would like my entry fee go towards skilled refs rather than prizes. I mainly play 3 mans, and the better the ref, the more fun you have, even if there is only one per field, the should at least be skilled.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Tom tell your friend, Ill see you at Spplat Attack 2 but...

Id also have to say that the price range for SPplat ATtack 2 is at the top end of what I could afford. I was horrified to think it might have been held at Hollywood Sports park. As with anything companies have to provied custmoers with some value.

Consider how much it would cost to hold a PB benifit in Hollywood, for hotel, room board and food versus EMR. The only people that would show up is celebrities.

As with any buisiness overhead is a factor.

If you can make your marker, field, whatever cheaper than you can offer a cheaper price. More people will buy.

do you want to sell 100 units at $1000 = $100,000 or

2000 Units at $100? = $200,000.

1,000,000 units at $10 = $10,000,000.

Of course if you could sell a plastic Xmag for $10 you would reach market saturation. Buisinesss would close. XMags would break and people would by more XMAGS or in this case. Tournaments.

Its your buisiness you decide?

[FutureMagOwner]

all you mass guys should check out the tournaments at warzone in ri this year they are always cheap and the teams would be a bit fairer if they didnt get a bunch of rookie teams then one amerature team, if they hade more teams they could split the 2.

[Thordic]

Starbase, he was talking about tournaments, not big/scenario games.

[the123]

After participating in many tournaments the past few years, I think the coolest tournament was Skyball, The tournament itself was on the mid to high end as far as cost. However the VENUE in which it was played was something that few people get the opportunity to do, play in a major venue like a real PROFESSIONAL athelete. That said, I think that the VENUE is the most important factor.. The larger, more well-known the place is, the bigger turnout you shall receive. Second to venue is PRIZES. People want CASH prizes, most people who are good enough to place high enough in a tournament for a major prize (1-4) already have paintball equipment. It's redundant to give them MORE of it!

[fire1811]

just look at the NPPL this your
if all tourney could be like that...mmmmmmm nice

[ShooterJM]

good refs
Players party
decent security over staging area

If you've got the means, get a cameraman for each field, tape the games, burn em onto CD's and give copies to the teams so they can see their game. (could pay for itself by selling VHS of all the games)

That would command a premium right there.

[JesseB]

well I would pay no more for a tourney than I already do without
1)better prizes... case o' paint or a spyder compact isnt cutting it any more
2)Better Refs
3)seating besides bleachers
4)allowed to coach from staging/bleacher area
5)recognition for wining maybe at a player party like someone mentioned
6)insurance for stolen crap
7)better fills
8)free food(crackers? hotdog? sandwich? chips?)
9)free drinks (can be plain ol' water)
10)better fields
11)fewer teams in each bracket
12)allow younger kids to play with the older (our tourneys are split at 18. 18 and up in one bracket younger in another)

[Scooter/Cootie]

Originally posted by fire1811
just look at the NPPL this your
if all tourney could be like that...mmmmmmm nice

Ditto. I think it's the little things that make a tourny fun and enjoyable to attend (Even if your not in first place at the end of the day).

The NPPL this year has done a fantastic job to cater to the players. Free bottles of water & fruit, cooling tents, individual team tents, a player friendly field layout, a spectator friendly venue, ect. The list can go on and on. Based on what I've heard, I really wish I would have had the opportunity to play out in LA.

I would definatly pay more to enter a tourny if it thought well enough in advance to provide the little things that make the experience more enjoyable.

[alkafluence]

Originally posted by tremis
It seems like a good number of high quality refs is the way to go. Some places have good refs, but need more refs. Also heres a thing about paint, make it BYOP. I myself would pay more for a byop event. Then I'm the one who gets to decide the quality of my paint. It seems like most fields need nicer staging areas too.

Tremis

I agree wholeheartedly here. I would not mind at all paying a higher entry fee, if it allowed me to determine the quality, bore, and type of the paint I'm using.

In essence I think that this would make a lot of teams more inclined to play regional/local tournies that do not operate this way, because it's one variable you can take out of the equation on how your day pans out. It also may make it possible for more teams to cross the cost barrier.

[Python14]

I pretty much agree with everything Shartley said. The reasons he listed are the same reasons I don't really have any desire to play tournament paintball. Why should players pay more for stuff they should be getting already? It's like having to pay extra for the wheels on a car. Wheels should come with the price of the car, just as good fair reffing, good paint(at a humane price, I don't care who makes it, paying more than $70 for a case of paint is really quite absurd), a well groomed field, and a decent day of paintball should be part of the tournament experience. If that was the case, and no one had any problems with the tournament paintball scene, I think not only would competitive paintball grow emensely, it would also become a more positive and enjoyable experience.

Come on promoters, start putting on high-class events that are worth what we pay.:)

[Blaster]

I've only played about a dozen local tournaments and for the most part they are run pretty well.
I think you could always use cheaper paint prices, but the biggest thing for me is attitude.
I would easily pay twice as much to play with a bunch of professional teams/players. By professional I mean individuals who do not run around cursing, throwing tantrums at every opportunity and trying to cheat whenever possible.
It would be so nice to see these individuals/teams thrown out instead of always given the proverbial warning. It's been said before it's the biggest item keeping paintball down.

[Army]

Although I have never played a tourney, I would like to see more promotion outside of the paintball community. Magazine and internet announcements are fine...but only for "us" that go to those sites or read "those" magazines.

Huntington Beach was a great example of high profile promotion, and look at the results. Granted, a lot of foot traffic was simply passerbys and tourists, but the tourney was "in your face" and on the beach. For you "easterly" people, Huntington Pier is one of the most famous in the country. Annually, over a dozen major and minor surfing contests are held there. The Beach Boys made HB famous too!

In contrast, who outside of paintball knew about the PSP and NPPL tourneys in Vegas? What about "Muddy Gras"?

A couple more bucks to cover billboards, and announcememts in Sports Illustrated and the like, would go far in mainstreaming paintball.

[logamus]

while i dont think tournys will allow byop, it would be nice if there was more than one or two choices. same goes for big/scenario games.

as far as advertising goes, i dont know if ads for tournys are as important because people walking on off the street dont play tournys. however, increasing the sports visibility would increase the number of walk ons first time players which only helps the game grow.

[Wickster]

I haven't been on the tuorney circuit since about 93 when the games were actually in the woods, but I still have my thoughts.

I agree with much of what is already stated, especially about paying WAY too much for mediocre to poor paint (I remember when IAO used zap paint). Since the new games are now all speedball, I suggest a few video cameras on the field. Anyone caught wiping (or cheating) is done for the year and their team plays every subsequent game in that tournament 1 man down, etc.

Anything that stops the cheating is what is really needed.

Lastly, what was described earlier at the NPPL would be great.

[Quackman71]

In my opinion we need more local field turnys with:
Lite Pricing 50-60 per 3 man
Small Prizes Spyders, 12V Revs, Redz Packs
Only about 16 teams in 2 brackets
Good medium paint (RP Big Ball) or like.
And Lunch Provided
Nice trophys
3 refs on the field
and quick games to make it work
10 min each with 3 min break between games
with each team playing 6 games minimum (to ensure eveyone enjoys the playing even if they are not that great of players).
SNACKS are SELF-provided (snacks are snacks)
and what i would pay more for
High QUality Games

[Dragoon]

What would I pay more for?

Well, good refs are at the top of my list.
Followed by:

Less down time between games.
Shorter air line ups, and full 4500# fills
Sheltered staging areas.

Thats my .02

Douglas

[AGD]

Ok so pretty much most of you didn't answer the question. The AO Army is saying tournaments are too expensive already.

I'll pass the word but its not likely to change anything.

AGD

[Mossman]

Tom, i feel that most of our sentiments (well, mine at least), is that they tourney promoters gouge us every place they can, from paint prices (like 3x what they pay for it), to entry/air (you'd think every single person there shooting a case of paint would be almost enough for em), and then only give us the minimum they can without extreme complaining. Anyhow, tourney promoters, in the Mass area at least, definately charge the absolute most for everything that they can without deterring the majority of respectable teams in the area from coming.

That's fine and dandy, but the problems arise when the promoters deliver the bare minimum they can to get by. If you're 5 man team pays 300 bucks to get in a tournament, and buys 5 or 10 or however many cases of paint, with around 40 bucks profit per case, it's absolutely bogus for the teams good enough to win prizes have their "cash prizes" in the form of gift certificates, restricting the way they can spend the money they rightfully earned. The day you can buy entry to a tourney with a 80 dollar "retail" item you can get for 30 online is the day I'll be accepting of gift certificates as main tourney prizes.

I hope you didn't even read this Tom, It's like 2:30 and I had a long day :) Nothing like some mindless babble to get you ready for bed though, eh? :p

[shartley]

Originally posted by AGD
Ok so pretty much most of you didn't answer the question. The AO Army is saying tournaments are too expensive already.

I'll pass the word but its not likely to change anything.

AGD
Tom,
That is not what was being said. I find it distressing that that is all you got out of what was posted.

Of courts if THAT is what you pass along it is not likely to change anything…. Why would it? But that is not what was being said.

People took the time to post what they thought, and many of them took care to make more than a one line post. And for you to walk away from this thread with a one liner like that is an insult to everyone who took the time to actually answer your question or post on the matter at all. It makes me wonder if you even read the responses at all………….

[FutureMagOwner]

yeah i agree with what shartley posted earlier on before they go changing prices they should bring the quality to what it already SHOULD be

[MicroB]

1. BYOP, especially if your sponsored. It frustrates me to see everyone and their brother holding up Diablo banners at the end of the tourney. When thats all your allowed to shoot. I and my team would pay double or triple the entry fee to BYOP.

2. Refs should be paid better. I was a PRO ref before I moved to texas. I reffed many NPPL events and was paid worse than the teams that were hired to ref. I did see bias on team reffing, hense the creation of pro refs. How is it going to get better if PRO refs get paid less and not given the respect as a known player who is reffing. I would pay more for refs that were not a known or local team to get rid of bias. Bottom line; you can't have a good tourney with bad refs. Train refs and pay them better.

3. Better organization of who's playing where and when. My team many times has been called to play on two different fields at the same time. I don't understand why you can't block all the times so everyone knows what time they have to be at each field. Not, the 3 previous teams rolled and this field is now three games ahead of everyone else. This would also help for teams not being to a field on time. Schedule lunch time to be the same for each field and max of an hour long.

I'm a little peeved that that is all you got out of the other posts Tom. Yes we say tourneys are exspensive, but thats mostly because we don't get what we pay for. I agree with shartleys post. Not once have I left a tourney satisfied no matter how my team did. WE pay ALOT for: Bad paint, poor organization and underpaid ref staff that does'nt care.

Thx,B

[Nick1Shot]

Originally posted by shartley

Tom,
That is not what was being said. I find it distressing that that is all you got out of what was posted.
<<snip>>
And for you to walk away from this thread with a one liner like that is an insult to everyone who took the time to actually answer your question or post on the matter at all. It makes me wonder if you even read the responses at all????.

Shartley,
Remember Tom's original question was "what would you pay MORE for at a tournament?" Very few people answered that question. Everyone instead starting listing what they don't like about tourneys. Some said how they would do it different. And most said (alluded) that they wouldn't pay any more for anything. I think everyone missed answering Tom's question.
Having said that, I wouldn't pay more for better refs, cheaper paint, nicer fields, players parties, or fewer teams. Most of the tourneys I go to are the bigger ones with over 100 teams. These are pretty nice tourneys already. Smaller tourneys with <30 teams don't really make a huge profit in my neck of the woods. And the fields are just rec fields where they play an occasional tourney. I like those tourneys, but no one is getting rich off of them.

bob
www.1shotprod.com

[shartley]

Originally posted by Nick1Shot
Shartley,
Remember Tom's original question was "what would you pay MORE for at a tournament?" Very few people answered that question. Everyone instead starting listing what they don't like about tourneys. Some said how they would do it different. And most said (alluded) that they wouldn't pay any more for anything. I think everyone missed answering Tom's question.

Having said that, I wouldn't pay more for better refs, cheaper paint, nicer fields, players parties, or fewer teams. Most of the tourneys I go to are the bigger ones with over 100 teams. These are pretty nice tourneys already. Smaller tourneys with <30 teams don't really make a huge profit in my neck of the woods. And the fields are just rec fields where they play an occasional tourney. I like those tourneys, but no one is getting rich off of them.

bob
www.1shotprod.com
I read what Tom wrote, what he asked, what people posted, and then what Tom came back with as a response. Maybe you should read my post again. ;) What people posted had EVERYTHING to do with his question… it just didn’t get the response I think he expected. And then his one line response that he said he was going to tell the tournament folks is NOT what was being said… sorry. That is a bit too simplistic to say the least.

There is a huge difference between people saying that they would not pay more for ANYTHING, and saying that before tournament organizers even think about charging more, they should bring the quality of the events to the level that they SHOULD be for the prices folks are already paying.

Also if tournament organizers are worried about making their “profit” off of the actual tournament players, I feel they are missing the whole point of what CAN and SHOULD be happening. You use the tournament to bring attention to the VENU and to the products being used, NOT to make money off of the players participating. If the organizers and field break even and slightly above, THAT is GREAT! But it is the chance to show off their products, get a good name, etc. that they should be worrying about… and THAT leads to future sales.

Should they be looking at the short term (actual event sales) or long term? And is this saying they should not worry about making money? Nope. Is this saying they should not care if they even lose money? Nope. What it IS saying is that far too often they seem to be just trying to get everything they can milk out of the participants… and what the participants get in return is pittance in comparison.

No, folks were not ignoring Tom’s question, they were giving an honest answer to the overall situation being asked about. It also addressed real issues that tournament organizers should be concerned about…. Not just what they can do to make players pay MORE.

[Blaster]

Hammer....Nail....Right on the head Shartley!!!!

[Star_Base_CGI]

Well maybe, I mean we all posetd alot of good ideas. The tournie people know what they have to do to offer a good game. Maybe an Espyder along with better refs and they have to do it withen a reasoable price range.

As for Spplat Attack, I guess thats a poor example. I think there will be a pump tournie on friday night, could be wrong and the prize might be an AMP Shatner Illusion or something. We will have to see.

In my eyes a scenario is comparable to a trouniement but in the tournament people will be competing to see who is the best.

[Wc Keep]

1. i would pay a little more to have the tourney be byop.
2. i would pay a little more to have non-paintball related prizes be the prizes. (i would much rather play for a mini-disc player or a dvd player than a marker im not going to use)
3. i would pay a little more to have a better venu. have pavillions with tables and trash cans around.
4. definately would pay more to have real bathrooms.
5. would pay more for having video of your teams games played.
6. would pay more if there was a massage parlor at the event with a cute little blond working there:) .
7. i would pay more if there were little giveaways. [you know just so the team who came in dead last doesnt feel like a complete loser.(not that my team would ever come in dead last.:cool: )]
8. i would pay more if there were other events going on at the same time at the event. things like a one on one sydarm duel would be awesome.

i cant think of any other things right now. but my true number one concern is the bathrooms.

and i dont think scenarios can compare to tournies really.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Amen to number 4 brother.

[AGD]

I am leaving this post up to see the after reaction to my post. I am trying to keep it in focus. We all know that tourneys could be better but I was looking for the needle in the haystack that might have been overlooked. If its not there then its not there.

AGD

[AutomagRT1483]

Maybe they could organize alot more tourneys away from the major population centers, such as the LA, Chicago, etc. Move them out in the "sticks" so to speak, in order to make tourneys more availible to the vast amount of players that are not associated with any league or tourney association of any sort. I guess what I'm saying is that there is so much untapped talent out there and we need to let it loose.

Prolly a stupid idea, but I'd love to see it happen;)

[nippinout]

Although I am not a tourney player, I occasionally follow the larger ones on warpig. I was a little upset about the PSP/NPPl thing. I'm not a big fan of the PSP, BUT lots of good has come of it.

Now we have 2 large scale 'professional' level tournament series competing. The competition forces the two to provide quality. Paintball is not glamorous, even at the pro level. The play has moved out of the woods and into Pokemon and Dorito inflatables.

What I don't understand is the inclusion of odd prizes. Jet skis? Dirt bikes? Not everyone can use prizes like these. This is paintball isn't it? We are pretty much normal people, not EXTREME people. People like plasma tv's though. :)

If I were to win these prizes, I would have no use for them. Sure, the promoters are trying to bring in exciting prizes, but is it merely for the sake of having those sorts of prizes?

The real reason people play is for bragging rights. Pros don't get paid. They still have real 9-5 jobs. Paintball is expensive. Why give them prizes such as jet skis that are also expensive to play with. Why not help teams brag? :)

How about a tournament winner gets free/discounted entry to the next event. Series winners get the next season's entries for free. The team gets first class plane tickets to the World Cup. Hell, even coach would be greatly appreciated. As long as the gear arrived as well. :) Get a car rental company to sponsor a winning team with a van.

The series paint sponsor can give partial or full paint sponsorship to series winners. Event winners get discount paint at the next event.

Stuff like this is what people want. They would love to have less of a burden on the wallet. The series, promoter, airline, car rental people, and paint manufacturer get to have their name on a team banner. Teams get to play with less stress on their money.

GET THE PLAYERS OUT OF REFFING UNIFORMS!!!

Fix the problems with the present tourneys first. Then think about what they can do to spice things up.

[athomas]

For a price:

-good paint
-many good refs
-more games (even if you only play the prelims, you want to feel you got your moneys worth). More games = more profit on paint sales for the tourny as well
-good event organization

[cledford]

In my mind there are two tourney scenes. I only have competed in the local (non-NPPL level) Since I'm not sure what level we're talking about here, I'll comment on both.

Local scene:

Good paint or BYOP.(They really need to start date stamping that stuff at the factory with a born on date - doesn't solve all of the paint issues but would help a lot...) Prizes other then paintball related.(DVD players, Xboxes, MP3 players) Improved, changed (on a regular basis) field layouts, "use" of the static fields before the event. This would be like walking the field time, but each team could have say 1 or 2 10 minute windows to play the field. Kinda like your race entry fee in a local/club motorcyle race buys you at least 2 or 3 practice laps.

At the national scene, REFFING! Also, more entertainment events - like parties, bands, and side contests like speed shooting drills, fastest gun, etc.

In the local sense, they will really have to work to get me to pay more by not only allowing the above, but improving in all of the other areas as well. I fall in the catagory of those thinking that they're not currently delivering what they should for what they already get paid. It is actually worse at the local scene - since their fields, staff, and associated costs are already taken care of.

-Calvin

[Miscue]

Filming of games... would be nice to be able to get a vid of your team playing. Maybe use some good microphones as well... Charge for the vids if people want to buy...

Film replay to review for cheating or disputing calls -
I think it would be cool to allow teams to have their own vid cam guy/team to record game for purpose of disputing bad calls/cheating. If they miss something, too bad. Create facilities such that after game review is possible... create rules/standards.

Some form of marker registration program... to identify ownership of markers... something to help against theft... stolen equip recovery. How about some form of security... nothing fancy... just some people to watch over stuff? Safe areas... a secure place for people to put their stuff.

I'm willing to bet that people are willing to pay a bit more for what they should have got... ;) Yeah... $20 more... sure! :)

Hey, how about stuff like semi-free hotdogs? or food or something...

[Miscue]

How come we don't hear like... commercials over the PA systems or something...

Give vendors more things to spend money on for purpose of advertising or whatever... and... use that money to help lower costs or provide more stuff/services for players.

What I thought would be cool is if... various vendors/marker makers could have a place to do some kinda presentation on their company and their products at some time slot. Maybe some demonstrations. Q&A with the audience... kinda like a Comdex presentation for paintball or something. Put it over a PA. This goes a step beyond peddling their goods from a tent.

It breaks my heart when I see guys like TK, Budd Orr, Glenn Palmer, John Rice... etc... selling stuff in their booths.... and some people don't realize who they are or what they mean to the sport. "Hey man, ring this up for me quick." Glenn Palmer squints eyes, and punches away at register... ;)

[luke]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
1. i would pay a little more to have the tourney be byop.
2. i would pay a little more to have non-paintball related prizes be the prizes. (i would much rather play for a mini-disc player or a dvd player than a marker im not going to use)
3. i would pay a little more to have a better venu. have pavillions with tables and trash cans around.
4. definately would pay more to have real bathrooms.
5. would pay more for having video of your teams games played.
6. would pay more if there was a massage parlor at the event with a cute little blond working there:) .
7. i would pay more if there were little giveaways. [you know just so the team who came in dead last doesnt feel like a complete loser.(not that my team would ever come in dead last.:cool: )]
8. i would pay more if there were other events going on at the same time at the event. things like a one on one sydarm duel would be awesome.

i cant think of any other things right now. but my true number one concern is the bathrooms.

and i dont think scenarios can compare to tournies really.

These are some great ideas. :cool:

[cphilip]

Well on the question of paying more for something then I suspect nothing is going to be the answer.

More professional Refs should be achieved. We should stop using kids and teams to do this. We need to concentrate on people that are nothing but inpartial refs with a great understanding of the rules. And that is a goal that I know Bill Cookston wishes to reach but still seems to lack organization and resources to accomplish. But then again so does the whole paintball scene at this point.

From my point of view a paint ball tournament is more of a trade show than anything. Even most of the players are there to sell things. They are models of things when they are on the field. And so marketing is the whole influence. So a lot of the expenses are covered by renting booth space much like any trade show. It's not a cheap thing to put on. If they cost more then either the Vendor or the Player has to pay. And in this case they both do. I am not certain there is anything that either one of them wants to pay more for. If anything the Vendors will get stuck with the more now. So my question back to you Tom is this; "what would you as a Vendor at a tournament pay more for? I suspect the answer will be the same as the players. Nothing!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I definitely was aware of the original question, our point is that tournaments are already too expensive for alot of paintball players to attend, and what you get for the amount you are paying is definitely enough to dissuade most paintball players from attending. The general approach of promoters is to spend as little as they can without causing massive uprise or for their profit margin to drop the next tournament.
What would we want if we paid more? Who knows. But the way promoters are right now with field paint only rules then charging $80/case for their expiring and low quality paint, excessive entry fees, extra charges wherever they can get them, and then giving mediocre certificates to the top three teams only for their own stores for their excessively marked up prices, we don't TRUST the promoters/store owners enough to give them more money because we know as much of that as they possibly can will go into their pocket instead of into the game. Show me a promoter who does it for love of the game and not just greed and you'll have the guy players will devote their time and money to in tournaments and to help the game grow.
Mr. Kaye, I don't know what promoter/field owner you talked to, but if he's looking for ways to charge more money it means he's probably using the tactics I already listed and ripping off the players in his area, so he's just some greedy jerk who wants more money for doing as little as possible. Tell him if he wants more CUSTOMERS or for us to CONSIDER paying more, he should change his perspective and help us get the most out of our money now. The promoters need to take the first step in improving tournaments, not us.

[Ronin 23]

the porta potties drained the day before. I'll pay extra for the:

"CREATION, MAINTENANCE, AND DEVELOPMENT OF A WORLD WIDE GOVERNING BODY THAT WOULD DO THE FOLLOWING"

1. Standardization of the sport. From one standard rule to one standard field size.

2. Sanction (at a minimum fee) each bloody tournament whether it be local or a major international event. Minimum standards should be set for promoters as far as the quality of paint used, the number of refs employed, and the safety of the filling stations.

3. Implement an international standard as far as reffing goes. Also to establish parameters for a "professional" organization of referees.

4. Create a global player data base complete with photos and any other information that the player must provide to ensure their identity.

These and any other ideas that I believe would propel the sport onto the next level is what I would personally pay extra for in a tournament.

Some of you may strongly disagree that some of the things I listed above have already been tried. Yes they may have been tried...but they were done haphazardly and not to the level that people outside the industry can look at and respect.

The setting of minimum standards would help in preventing many of the issues that players in this forum have with today's tournament scene.

Kudos to Chuck and his NPPL crew.

/s/ Mel C. Maravilla
Capt. of the PBX Legion

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Show me a promoter who does it for love of the game and not just greed and you'll have the guy players will devote their time and money to in tournaments and to help the game grow.

Check out the Global Paintball League held in Skirmish USA (Jim Thorpe, PA).

Their 6 leg series provides for prices for the top finishers in each of the 3 division and in leg of the series. Plus prices for the series winners.

Price of paint is $70 per case of Draxxus Blaze. Although not entirely a bargain, at least its better that the price that you guys have mentioned in this thread.... and its not Brand X in a white box either.

Because of this, they have grown quite rapidly in the number of years that they've been around.

Not every promoter is a hack who is just looking to make a buck. What we also must consider is that there is a profit motive for people to even bother doing it to begin with. It's just whether they're out there doing it with a conscience or not.

[hitmanng]

I think the first thing to do is evaluate why people play in paintball tournements. I think different people do it for different reasons. Most just to have an outlet for competative paintball.
For example, the ICC is a local paintball league in Indiana. Last year they averaged 52 teams per event. They have about 8 events per year March through October. Registration is 165/team and paint is PMI
PMI Evil
$57.25/case
PMI Premium
$48.75/case
Lat year 93 teams participated.
The prize..... Trophies and bragging rights. At the end of the season, the series champion was also awarded the ICC Ambassadorship Award with a paid entry to a national tournament (Amateur Division), as well as two free hotel rooms.

Why does the ICC work?
Good refs? Teams ref at thier home field and it can be biased and bad at times.
Great prizes? more like what prizes.
Great booths? There are a few but nothing big.
People come to play paintball. Generally fair and resonably priced paintball.

What are people not willing to pay extra for?
1. Round decent paint. It is expected.
2. Good reffing is expected. (although not always followed through on)
3. Decent fields.
4. Air availability and parking.
5. A smoothly run tournement.

Now if Tom wants to know what people will pay more for here is what I think.
1. Quality paint. People are always whining about paint prices and quality. I would always offer 2 choices a cheaper and a more expensive higher quality paint.
2. Trade show. People like them. The bigger the better but make sure people know they are going to be there and that is part of the price. Trade show set up is expensive.
3. Premium parking. I know that sounds dumb but we have a lot of gear and there are many of days I would pay $20.00 for a better parking spot.
4. Easy Air. Available no lines, no hassles and close by. Again people need to understand what they are paying for in the entry fee.
5. Good food. I know don't laugh but paintball sucks at providing quality refreshments to people with a lot of cash in hand at a tourney. There is a lot of money to be had here. My wife even though about starting a bussiness getting booths at tourneys.
6. Women....There just arn't enough gorgeous ladies walking around..... oh sorry lost my train of thought. :D
7. Last but not least information. People pay at every footballgame and basketball game for player information. I know it would be a hard thing to do but programs would sell almost guarantied. If you tell people to submit a photo and information with registration and make a program with each team and a profile of each player in it, they would sell like hot cakes. This is both to the players that want something to take home and to players that want to analyze the competition.

That'a all I can think of right now.
Hope this is helpfull.
Hitmanng

[Ronin 23]

and that will be a by-product of having a world wide governing body.

[goat]

I think Most tourney promoters are getting enough of the players $ as it is, If you factor in the amount of cash the AVERAGE tourney player (and by average I dont mean the guy's and ladies that are factory sponsored)spends to go to an out of state event it's Nuts,
Hotel, gas or airfare, food, drinks, might even have to rent a car.
If they think that raising the prices and fixing a few things that are already broken is going to draw more players I have news for them, Most players can afford to hit 1 big event per year and maybe a few local events to fill in the gaps -if prices go up then it will only mean fewer players at fewer events.
As for the subject of paint cost, this make no sense at all to me, at some events you are buying directly from the dealer (sometimes out of their truck), so why is it the paint cost just as much as when I buy it at my local field??? there is no middle man! And to top it off they are selling mass amounts in a few days.
Ultimate Madness was great and I feel the pricing was right where is needed to be, alot of the things other people mentioned Happened at Madness...players party, indoor tourney, cameras, and from what I saw good reffing.
Im out,
Goat

[hitmanng]

I think the trick is you change where the money is spent. With food or programs or other extras you get the monye but the entrance fee does not go up. If you want the extras you buy them if not you don't. Charging admission of spectators for example. Not a lot bet $2.00/head per day. Players and 1 couch per team get in with registration. The promoter makes a few extra bucks and the players do not pay the price.
Hitmanng

[circus5]

Good certified refs would be nice. id love to see a tourney reffed by one cohesive organization, such as WPRC or PRO(though i wasnt at all impressed with the PRO refs at skyball 2k2). Teams reffing just doesn't work (xept for Syndicate of Paint, those german guys, they are great). Problem is in order to have non-players ref you have to train them and pay them decently. And i dont think any tourney promoter would be willing to pay the amount of money it would take to get someone who doesn't play (and love) the sport to travel to Toronto or Vegas or AC to ref.

[RaTfreak]

I would just love to go to a tourney and win something. I know that sounds cheap but even if you don't place in the top 5 you should still have door prizes, thanks for coming prizes or whatever.

I would be willing to go to higher priced tourneys IF I thought I stood a chance of getting something in return. T-shirts, bags, something.

Until then I'll stick to cheap tourneys with plastic trophies.

[Pvt.Opium]

I would pay for:

New Paint( not the stuff they give you that has sat on the shelfs for weeks)

and

Plenty of un-biased refs

It seems to me that the host of the tourneys always come out with a high profit rate, wich is not a problem except when evreyone has something to complain about