Aluminum Classic valve?

[Python14]

I just found out I have access to a mill and lathe so I'm considering trying my hand at making new internals for the Python Mag out of Aluminum. It will ofcoarse be level 10, but no RT because I am cheap. Has anyone tried this before?


BTW, if there is any question, yes, I was dropped on my head when I was a baby:(

[cphilip]

Your nutz!

Have you seen all the close tolerance things going on in that change over to the Aluminum? I mean the chamber had to be changed to accomadate the inside threading of the PT tip parts and the PT tip had to be changed to thread in there...
Look at an X Valve before you even start and compair them. They are not the same as you think. They both end up the same in performance but they get there a slightly different way.

It's not easy and with the close tolerances that have to be maintaned on the mag its very critical to do that. You will be in for a very difficult time doing this on a simple mill and getting it even close.

These things are done on one of the most sophisticated milling machines I ever saw. The ultimate Dremel I called it. Absolutely amazing. Good luck duplicating one of those quarter million dollar machines with a lathe and mill.

Not trying to discourage you at all... :D

[Python14]

I'm really looking for an excuse to go to the machine shop. Technically I'm not allowed in there because I'm not a Governors school student, but lilsnowpixie is so she can probably get me in. I am just gonna try and see how close I can get with it. I will however try and take a sluggo in and see what I can about milling off access weight. I am just gonna experiment and try and develope some machining skills to compliment my welding skills.:D


BTW, Mr. Kaye, no need to worry about me making copies of your wonderful design. I can barely write my name with a dremel in my bench vice. I'll be lucky if I can get the threads to match up on the powertube tip.:D I'm just seeing what I can do.

[Cristobal]

I think what cphilip (as a moderator of AGD's board) is trying to say is that you'd better not go into something like that lightly... if you screw up and it blows up in your face when you shoot I don't think he or AGD will be very sympathetic ;)

With that said, I'm going to take exception to cphilips logic about milling machines. Good machinists on good manual machines used to do lots of stuff that is done on cnc machines today. The change isn't so much about precision, but about speed -- and hence profit. I will grant you that there's lots of stuff done on CnCs that would be nigh on impossible otherwise, but I don't think the a mag valve falls into this category. Just because the x-valves are made on super-fancy-expensive machines doesn't mean that sombody who knew what he was doing couldn't use precision mics and much more humble manual machine to make one. You just have to know what you're doing.

My only caution to anybody who works with a compressed air vavle is that he or she had better know what they are doing on the machine -- and more importantly know how changing materials will change how the valve has to be engineered. Oftentimes the most dangerous design blunders are the in little details somebody didn't catch.

[nerobro]

cphilip, how do you think the first mags were made? :-) I bet he could do it. it may take a few tries, but I bet he could do it. Heck ther'es another company that made cloned airs.... Course AGD ran them out of buisness ;-)

Nicad has already made an aluminum AIR clone... you might want to talk to him a little. There are some wear issues using an aluminum powertube. That's why the x-vavles have the SS powertube screwed on.

When AGD was trying to make ALuminum AIR's they couldn't used the normal "inside' threaded valve body and had to make the powertube screw over the aluminum part. Beacuse the aluminum body would strech a little and leak around the powertube section. (thats my hint for the day tee hee hee)

Just to restore some confidence.. it's been done before ;-) but if I were you, I'd still use AGD guts in this air of yours.

[cphilip]

Well you can take exception to it if you like but these things are holding tolerances to a millionth of an inch. Most hand held measuring devices cannot do this. However some milling machines can (certainly the ones Tom's vendor uses do) but most of those are computerized and I was not certain he had access to one of those. I may have assumed to much there though.

And tolerances of all the things on a Mag are so important. And so is the changes you have to make on a Mag to go from SS to Aluminum. He needs to be aware that it was not just simply changing the metal used. It was more than that. And its a combination of metals using more Aluminum than before. And the changes were critical in how those two types of material were joined that makes all the difference. Its not simply a matter of making the same parts out of Aluminum. It had to be re-Engineered.

I was not addressing the liability issues at all. Thats not my place to do so. Tom will do that.

[hitech]

Try just making the back "half" first. It should be much easier and still provide some weight savings. If you can do that easily and well, then maybe think about a bigger challenge (the front "half"). ;)

[cphilip]

Good Idea! The back half would be easier if you wanted to settle for that part.

That is why I told him to look real close at an X Valve compaired to an older RT/EMag to see how it was done. A lot of changes up front for sure.

[Russ]

Walking into a machine shop and building a precision part is about as easy as sitting down at a piano and playing a Mozart concerto...

yes, it can be done, but you really need to know what your doing around the machinery, how to hold the parts, what tools to use, and in what sequence, etc. etc. Cutting those threads will be fun. ;)

Russ, a Tool & Die maker for the last, oh, 26 years or so :) ... :(

[paintballbeaver]

actually there was a guy about 3-4 months back who made one and it worked fine so i would do a search and see if you cant find that thread and go from there make sure to get it anoed though so it dosent detirerate.... lmk how it goes

[Python14]

I am sitting here taking apart everything and I think what I will try instead is to work on making my body vert feed. Which will really just be some precision hardfacing work and milling a new groove in my barrel.

[dansim]

what is all teh hubbub about a few onces anyway, if you really want to improve yer game mill your self some weights and build them biceps lol;) :p :D

[Python14]

It's not that I want to save weight or whatever, I just want to see if I can do it. Metalwork and welding is one of my few talents so I figure, hey, why not try machining too?

I chose aluminum, even tho I'm not gonna do a valve yet, because it is easier for me to get raw aluminum stock than stainless is

[xen_100]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well you can take exception to it if you like but these things are holding tolerances to a millionth of an inch. Most hand held measuring devices cannot do this. However some milling machines can (certainly the ones Tom's vendor uses do) but most of those are computerized and I was not certain he had access to one of those. I may have assumed to much there though.

And tolerances of all the things on a Mag are so important. And so is the changes you have to make on a Mag to go from SS to Aluminum. He needs to be aware that it was not just simply changing the metal used. It was more than that. And its a combination of metals using more Aluminum than before. And the changes were critical in how those two types of material were joined that makes all the difference. Its not simply a matter of making the same parts out of Aluminum. It had to be re-Engineered.

I was not addressing the liability issues at all. Thats not my place to do so. Tom will do that.


I would like to see some proof of that... 1/1,000,000 of an inch? come on? there is nothing on this earth that could repeatably mill or lathe something to that close of a standard. all you have to have is a VERY slight amount of wear on your tool and it will go out serveral 1/10,000ths of an inch. I think that is a little exagerated. :D

we're not talking about tolerances thatr are that close anyway. if they were an air valve would cost alot more than $300!

[Cristobal]

wow, this has turned into quite the spirited discussion -- there must be a machining bug going around AO right now.

cphilip: exception taken, but no offense intended. I'm sorry if I miss-represented your cautionary note ;):D

In any case I'm in agreement that building a custom aluminum valve is no simple endeavor. Better to start small like Hitech suggested. I do think it would be interesting to know what the tightest tolerance is, though. Just for fun, maybe I'll have to go mic some of the parts in my classic valve (alas, no x:()

[steveg]

the typical modern, good quality cnc lathe or mill
is capable of +/-0002" positioning and +/-0001" repeatability.

what that means is that if I command a diameter of
1" than what will happen is a size between .9998" and 1.0002"

repeatability is when I repeat the same command the next
time it will be within +/-0001" of what happened the last
time.

This precision can be about halved with the installation
of feedback scales.

Oh and CP one of the most accurate lathes that can be had
is a manual lathe.

CP do you remember the brand of lathes and mills being used?
professional curiosity.

[nerobro]

So logn as you get the hole centers right and lengths right. you sould be ok. IIRC the powertube spacers are changes in .005" and I"m sure the on/off position is somewhat floatable. Probally as much as 1/16" of an inch. that's .0625"... (my guess judging from teh shape of the back of the sear.... of course moving the on/off will affect trigger pull... more or less leverage)

o-rings hold the on/off, and powertube bits in place... so you have several thou to play with.

[magmonkey]

I am probably opening a can of worms by typing this but here goes

When I was in trade school I had no money but loved

automags.... so what to do? I borrowed my friends

micromag and reverse engineered it, I built the body, grip

frame, asa,power feed,ball detent and yes the air valve.

the only bought parts were the grips and sear It was a

general pain in the butt but I did it because I wanted a

high end

marker and could not afford one at the time. the "gliney

mag" is still in service but it now has an retro valve in

it, although the one I built still works.

I showed the marker to tom at skyball and he complemented

my work, I told him it was a one off deal and I would

never sell it (I didn't make it to step on toes, I made it

because I was poor and cheap:), plus it cost me more in time then I could ever get for it)

it was one of the coolest projects have

undertaken.... My advice Learn as much as you can doing

small projects, there are alot of things that could have

gone wrong but luckily didn't.

Gliney the mag monkey
Destructive customs

[Python14]

POST PICS! :D :D :D
I want to see.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by xen_100



I would like to see some proof of that... 1/1,000,000 of an inch? come on? there is nothing on this earth that could repeatably mill or lathe something to that close of a standard. all you have to have is a VERY slight amount of wear on your tool and it will go out serveral 1/10,000ths of an inch. I think that is a little exagerated. :D

we're not talking about tolerances thatr are that close anyway. if they were an air valve would cost alot more than $300!

They threw that number out as the maximum capability of the machine. I didn't say it has to meet that for our stuff but its incredibly small when you want it to be and even a 100 thousanths or 10 thousanths ( have to ask Tom what he shoots for here) is something like more like what we are looking for.

Your not thinking about the whole set of other things that magnify any mistake. One part can start adding up as you move down the line. No its not an exageration its a statement of what they CAN do. Things have to be perfect to achieve it. No hand chucking is going to do it. And its going to take more than a set of calipers to measure and align those. So no hand lathe is going to be able too get in those numbers with repeatability. Sorry but its not possible without the right tools. Not that WE need to get there but we do need close tolerances for repeatability.

FYI...We saw some small pins you could not even see the threads on. 100 per inch. they were about the size of a sear pin. I could not believe they were threaded. But if you held em up close you could see the little fine lines. Amazing.

I will have to look the name of these milling machines up as I do not recall from memory. Maybe one of the others will pop up and remember it. But they are special ones. Capabilties far beyond what we need for these but still well within what we need cranking them out.

And you guys are on the right track with the spacers and all. They are to take out tolerance variants and wear. But in order for them to do that they have to be very close to start with. And stay within the 5 one thousanths of an inch your given to adjust them with. Now remember that is after quite a few parts are lined up and all the play they may introduce. Remember each part that wears or oxidizes magnifies the mistake to the next part down the line. And not always linear. When you go from the length of the power tube to the on off pin and how big around the valve body is and how it sits in the rail and then down to the position of the sear pin in the rail to the length of the trigger rod. All them things in line and some give and take and the next thing you know you can exceed that if your not carefull. If it all is close then you can adjust that last little bit out. If its too far from that then you cannot. So its critical that all of them are so close to start with so there is no more than .005 to adjust out.

the "Timing" of a mag is all in the little things that makes them fit together. In say a Cocker its in all the rods and things you can adjust poor tolerances out with. With a Mag you need to be pretty darn close to start with. So that is why Tom is so fussy about it.

Think in those terms about what I was pointing out to him when I was cautioning him about what he was into. He may still want to try. But he needed to realize that it was not just reproducing the same valve in Aluminum either. It would need to be changed in some places.

[Russ]

Phil, welcome to my world :)

My guess is that what you saw wasn't a milling machine (aka milling center), but a turning center, a machine that makes round parts, but also has the capability to mill the workpiece...

Was the name of the machine japanese?

[cphilip]

Your probably right Russ. I am not up on the different terminologies of them. It will do all the cuts at once including all the inner ones. With out ever letting go of the piece. Cuts and mills all that stuff in the centers and holes and all in one pass with mutilple tasks. Multiple tools and such moving in and out. And starts the next one as it feeds the bar stock in. Whatever you call one of them things. I think it was said that those guys Tom uses has the largest concentration of them in one spot anywhere. They are complete little set ups. I do not recall the name but I think I made a note of it somewhere in my notes.

[steveg]

Mori Seiki , Okuma, Nakamura , and Mazak are the popular
ones.(from Japan that is)

[cphilip]

Mazak sounds familiar but my old age is kinda making me unsure.... :D :(

[TheJester]

you might not want to jump into something that big right away, you're 1st time on the machine you'll be lucky to hold +/- .005 tolerances. i'm not sure about the tolerences of the mag valve, but i've been doing it for a year now and i still can't always get with in +/- .003, i try, but mistakes happen

[cledford]

Phil,

It was Mazak - I've got some pics around here I'll try to find.

-Calvin

[steveg]

A Mazak then, so unless it has the optional Fanuc control
then it probably has the standard Mazatrol, which under
the hood is a Meldas (Mitsubishi) control.

anyhow standard Meldas and Fanuc controls have a least input amount
of .0001" or .001mm (which is actually smaller
by 2.54 times)

standard lathes with +/-.0002" positioning are good enough
for airplanes, and even space program parts, as well as
nuclear, infact these lathes are even used in bearing manufacture
to rough the parts to size before final grinding.

But a millionth..., no. definatly not at only $250 000

so if a standard lathe is good enough for the space program
odds are it's good enough for mag parts:cool:

feel hit over the head enough yet Phil?;)

and I still know that a good machinist with a good Hardinge
manual lathe can do better that almost any CNC lathe.
just a LOT slower

[steveg]

http://www.llnl.gov/str/April01/Klingmann.html

now This! is a lathe that can cut to a millionth of an inch

[dansim]

ive seen magmonkeys micromag at aone 1, and it was very impressive

[cphilip]

Well I am not certain of the capabities of these things for sure or wether we were discussing their measuring capabilities when that number came up. I know it came up in conversation but I will not attest to it as the cutting number. I know it's small as heck though. The only one I can find any real numbers on was in One 10 thousandths of an inch from a model made in 1994. Repeatabilities show in that number. And I not sure which model it is they use. They had several models of them there. Some better and newer than 1994 for certain. All the numbers we throwing around are small as heck! But most of them are hard to achieve when human error is inputted as well as inexperience.

All I remember was I was mighty impressed with them numbers.


The machine is here but not sure which ones as they had several (http://www.mazakeurope.com/multifunction/multi.htm)

[steveg]

Practice makes perfect!

I do think that Playing with +400psi does demand a lot of
care and attention however.

A little more background regarding measuring instruments
as well.

While there is far more than a vernier and micrometer
used they are the most common intruments used,
especially for turning.

I'll use what I own as examples

first the vernier: these are used when tolerances of greater that +/-.001 are called for.

my scale vernier has a smallest resolution of .001" and that assumes that I can still read the lines
(Which I can't anymore especially with my latest glasses:eek: )

my mitutoyo digital vernier has a .0005" resolution but
again only +/-.001 accuracy

Micrometers: are available in .001 resolution and .0001 resolution. they are available in even smaller resolutions
but that becomes laboratory grade and increadable expensive.

my Starret .0001" mic has a .00005 display and a .0001 accuracy.

It is true that both Fanuc and Meldas controls can be capable
of .000 004" resolution (actually .0001mm as they are native metric) but there really are very few machines
are capable of using it.

As you can tell those numbers are part of my work and life.:cool:

[cphilip]

I am learning a lot! :)

Yes I see so then these particular ones you mention are indeed capable of the millionths things... That is incredible realy. I can understand why its hard to fathom.

I think these guys have six or eight of these machines in there. Forgot to count em. Some older and some newer ones.

[steveg]

I should add that the standard specification for almost all
cnc machines are +/-.0002 or 2 ten-thousandth

a millionth is .000001

a machine that is capable of machining to .0001"(+/-.00005" positioning)
consistantly is considered to be a fantastically good
machine and would also be a fantactically expensive machine.(250 000 is not fantastically expensive)

As a lathe that is , this is comfortable into the range of
cnc grinders, in fact the reason that they exist.

It occurs to me just now that milli as in millimetre
or I suppose milli-inch means one-thousandth

perhaps some misunderstanding?

I guess that i shouldn't add (and no professional bias here:rolleyes: ;) ) Mazak could be considered the Brass Eagle of the CNC machine world

[Python14]

Just an industry question....With CNC systems becoming the standard, it seems a teenager with a good knowledge of programing and physics can operate anything in a machine shop. I may be wrong though, so forgive my ignorance. But my question none the less is, Is there still room for machinists who still do it manually? I'm really interested in this field of work and want to if I have a future in it.

[Cristobal]

Originally posted by Python14
Just an industry question....With CNC systems becoming the standard, it seems a teenager with a good knowledge of programing and physics can operate anything in a machine shop. I may be wrong though, so forgive my ignorance. But my question none the less is, Is there still room for machinists who still do it manually? I'm really interested in this field of work and want to if I have a future in it.

Its not quite that simple.

Drawing up the design on the computer is only the first step... then you have to transform it into commands that the machine can understand. That's the role of you CAM software -- and to use the CAM software effectly you need to know how the actual machining is going to work. You have tell the computer what sort of tooling its going to use, how fast to run, depth of cut, feed rate, order of cuts, etc... In many cases you can give the program some of the information and it will know enough about what you're doing to guess at the rest -- but you still have to check that it guessed right, and tell it to do something else if necessary. And of course, you need to know what your machine is capable of, what its funny little intricacies are, and even how to set up your part on the machine (not always as simple as putting it in a vice). There: I'm no expert in CnC machining, but that ought to give you an idea of the knowlege base involved. If someone who knows more wants to correct or add, then feel free.

But basically if you don't know enough to mill it manually, you'll be a bit hard pressed to do it on the CnC, because all it will do is "crank the handels" for you -- you still have to tell it what to do.

Not to turn you off to machining though :) As long as you've got someone who knows what they're doing to walk you through the process, you can do a lot of cool stuff, even if you don't know a lot yourself. As you gain experience, pretty soon you'll be showing somebody else how to do it.

[nerobro]

actually.. if you're making it yourself, the RT shouldn't be much more troubble... But you'd have to buy more parts from AGD. A rebuild kit, the tube/regpin, adjuster, spring pack, on/off, and reg piston should cover the AGD branded parts, along with the LX kit.

[Python14]

Now I'm all giddy and excited bout going to the machine shop.