Super Light Mechanical Trigger Update

[AGD]

AO,

Everyone is talking about foolish ways to modify their triggers to get it lighter since I started researching a lightweight trigger. I have gotten tired of listening to everyone complain that we never get things out so I have shut up about projects that I know for sure you will like.

Triggers are a safety issue so against my now sharpened marketing skills I felt it was important to give you an update to shut all this down.

Yes we do have a working lightweight prototype trigger in field testing now. We were hoping to get a mech trigger as light as an e-gun but that does not look like it is possible.

The new trigger is about 1/3 the pull of the stock trigger. From the people who have tried it they have all agreed that is in NOT in the e-gun catagory but in the very light mechanical zone. It competes favorably with lightweight cocker swing triggers. It is approxamately equivalent to three magnets in the emag trigger.

The prototype is not ready for production. The parts are small and fragile so we have to figure out a way to make it idiot proof. There is a 99% chance this mod will retrofit to every gun we ever made. Its a two minute parts swap.

Currently we are working on adjusting the amount of reactivity in the trigger to comply with various (unknown) tournament rules. We would like to make the reactivity adjustable by swaping parts.

The bad news is that this is not a front burner project right now. We are dealing with the next batch of xmags that are taking a lot of time.

I would estimate the price to be in the sub 100 buck catagory. We will be selling them in the store first so AO gets first crack. No preorders, no winers, if you don't want to be a guinee pig don't buy in the first batch. I am not going to answer any more questions about the mod at this time so don't post endless "yea but's".

Lastly I am not as excited about this mod as I was at first. I can shoot this mech gun just as fast and long as my xmag. I do it, as I have always done, by fanning the trigger. I have now been informed that "fanning" is lame and no pro player would be caught dead doing it. I interpret this to mean that the advantage this trigger has, no electronics and high rate of fire, will be dismissed as out of fashion by the paintball community.

AGD

[edweird]

Very intersting.... This will be a very nice upgrade I think when your other projects come out as well. By other projects I am refering to the Y Grip.


VIVA LA Mechanical Trigger!

[BTAutoMag]

wow, can we see at least a pic? i wonder if how youre doing has any relation to how i did mine. can you give us the basic theory?

[joeyjoe367]

1/3 the pull of a stock trigger (RT, I'm assuming)?!?!? I'm ecstatic! I don't think I'd want it too light anyhow; I like mechanical triggers over electro triggers because of the "toy" feel that microswitches give.

1/3rd trigger pull is exactly what I want.

And Tom, I believe you're the one who starts fashions :) I don't see anything wrong with so called "trigger-fanning" as long as you can do it practically on the field!

Go knock 'em dead Tom, you rule!

[nippinout]

Well, before Tom gets more annoyed at us, I have to throw this into the pot...

Tom, I've been toying with my mechanical trigger. I've put a pre-load on it making it much lighter.

Spring was used. Worked great, a little too great! :)

The other idea was using opposing magnets.

Or a combo of the two so the pull strength was more constant throughout the length of the pull.

Last reply from me in this thread! :D

[Army]

Yea, but...........


:D

[spantol]

Tom-

A humble suggestion, regarding the "fashionable" paintball community: Screw 'em.

There's a subset of the paintball community that subsists on hype and hype alone--the "cockers shoot farther," "Angels hit harder," "closed-bolt is better" crowd. There's nothing anyone can do to shake them out of it; rather, they'll continue to flush money down the toilet in a constant pursuit of other manufacturers' claims. Some of them will eventually see the light, others are simply lost. These people are quite clearly not your target market--Why waste your energy?

Personally, I'm thrilled about the prospect of lighter mechanical trigger, and I'll be ordering the day it hits the store.

[FooTemps]

Dang Tom... you just slapped everyone in the face nice and hard... lol, Seems like even you can crack sometimes.

[thecavemankevin]

i agree that the x-mags are, and should be the priority!

If anything gets AGD to the top, it will be the x-mags...not an "as light as electro" mech trigger.

Anotherthing to realize is that electro cockers are becomeing all the rage right now and very fast at that. mech triggers are a dieing breed (never will be totally gone, but electros will always be dominant).

The x-mags, ULE's and y-grips should be the priority and this should stay on the back burner till x-mag production is up to date.

Keep up the good work :)

[Blennidae]

Tom, by the tone of your post, I don't know if you will even read this. It sounded like here's the info, end of discussion. If so, thats fine.

I know jack about marketing, but what I have seen you doing to address all the perceived "faults" of mags seems to be causing some word of mouth out there.

Word is getting out that mags no longer chop(L10), are not heavy(ULE/Xmag), and are not ugly(ULE). The ULE even covered the barrel selection issue.

I think by getting a lighter trigger pull, you can kill the "stiff trigger" complaints. Especially with the single trigger crowd.

If you keep taking away what everyone thinks is "wrong" with mags, they will hopefully think more about buying one.

[RetroEclipseMan]

You can definately put me down for one when this mod comes out. And hey, why the heck does it matter if you fan the trigger. People just hate the fact that they can only dream of how fast you can shoot Tom:D Don't let a good product die just cause the misinformed don't like it.

[MantisMag]

sorry to hear you've lost your enthusiasm for the project. i'm sure it's still a nifty little upgrade. too bad it didn't live up to the expectations you had going into it. don't worry about all those other people. even if it's not something revolutionary you are still slowly eliminating all criticisms that people have against mags. mags are now customizable, come in pretty colors, don't chop, and soon will have very light triggers. just keep on pushing tom.

"ain't nobody gonna take my pride. ain't nobody gonna hold me down! oh no! i've got to keep on moving." :D

[cledford]

I'm hoping the trigger makes it. Along with the level 10 you'll have the first electro that doesn't require batteries ;) I know I was one of the ones who agreed it wasn't *quite* light enough to equal an electro - but I'd say it's more then enough for someone on a budget who can't afford the angel/timmy/nerve/whatever. They'll get all of the design genius of the AGD marker (with the durability) without the price.

Personally, I think I'd buy the trigger and ditch the Emag due to weight. Even with all ULE - the heavier frame (compared to the intelli), the battery, and the guts all weigh in at more then you could throw an Xvalve mag together for. It can hang with the big boys for sure - and who really cares if the pros think fanning is lame? Most of the regular players do it. They buy their equipment vs. having it given to them.

-Calvin

[Jerhew]

woohoo!

ok so i feel a little bad because we made Tom crack a bit
but we got the inside scoop:):):)

thanx Tom
i think it means a lot to us die hard mechanical guns for life guys
i know i'll definitely buy it...under a $100 you say
very nice

well everyone that just picked up their level 10 in the last few months will probably be getting this now too

[FooTemps]

Hmmm... now that I've thought about it more... Did people on AO plan to annoy Tom so he would give us some inside info?

[Paintchucker]

Maybe this post should go under the "The Wrath Of Tom!" thread. LOL...


Glad you tried, sorry it didn't work out, still love Mags and want a Ygrip!!!!

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by FooTemps
Hmmm... now that I've thought about it more... Did people on AO plan to annoy Tom so he would give us some inside info?

it just sorta worked out that way :D

seriously though
1/3 the trigger pull
I'll take it
PaaLEASE don't let this one die
backburner. fine. we all have our priorities...
but atleast beta test it(so atleast us AO'ers can get one) :D

[AGD]

The trigger is going to make it barring any completely unexpected stuff showing up. I am not mad at you guys at all, its just that a 66% improvement is a BIG percentage. You don't see that kind of jump in an evolved market like we have today. The products are just too close. I am disapointed that many will not think much of it.

AGD

[Oddball]

1/3 of the pull, i think 1/4 would be much better. Maybe even 2/7, but 1/3 would be just a little too heavy still.
hehe

[WicKeD_WaYz]

This last weekend I started complaining about my intelli trigger being too heavy. I thouhg it would be nice to have a lighter trigger but still keep the "popping" sound when you shoot as opposed to the autococker's "metal grinding"

:rolleyes:

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I just went out this past weekend and shot Bad_Knee's backup MiniMag with a classic valve (while my ULE X-Valved Mag is in the shop getting tweaked) and I was pretty impressed with how that thing shot with a classic valve and an intelliframe..I could imagine the AGD Super Trigger and an X-Valve...dang....I think I'm in love..I'd personally rather have that than an X (well..maybe I won't go that far..)...but it sure would be a nice and light setup..

[reefer madness]

No matter how popullar electros get, there will alwayse be those (like me) who simply cannot put up $1000+ for one. The mechanical crowd who isnt ubber rich shouldnt get left in the dust. there is still a huge amount of mech users out there and i think this product could be a gold mine. there are still more mag/rt/mini users than e/xmags and im sure almost all the mech users would buy this upgrade. please dont let this one sit on the back burner.

[Miscue]

Mega Trigger... yay!

/me will have his very own MegaMag X!

[reefer madness]

Originally posted by AGD
AO,





1.The prototype is not ready for production. The parts are small and fragile so we have to figure out a way to make it idiot proof. There is a 99% chance this mod will retrofit to every gun we ever made. Its a two minute parts swap.


2.The bad news is that this is not a front burner project right now. We are dealing with the next batch of xmags that are taking a lot of time.

3.I would estimate the price to be in the sub 100 buck catagory. We will be selling them in the store first so AO gets first crack. No preorders, no winers, if you don't want to be a guinee pig don't buy in the first batch. I am not going to answer any more questions about the mod at this time so don't post endless "yea but's".

4.Lastly I am not as excited about this mod as I was at first. I can shoot this mech gun just as fast and long as my xmag. I do it, as I have always done, by fanning the trigger. I have now been informed that "fanning" is lame and no pro player would be caught dead doing it. I interpret this to mean that the advantage this trigger has, no electronics and high rate of fire, will be dismissed as out of fashion by the paintball community.

AGD

1.just make sure it can be used on the classic rt

2.please, bring this baby to the front burner and light the b*tch on fire!

3.i will pay $100 to be a guinee pig right this second

4.i am very excited and dont have an xmag. also with a lighter trigger pull, the kickback of the rt will illiminate the need to fan.

now if you could get an elctro with the rt kickback, sign me up

[dansim]

fanning is the only way i shoot... and if its the onl;y way youve ever done it it obviously means your good at it and aiming iwth it, screw the i fan, and if they call that the pussy way i got the back end of a boomstick to introduce to them:eek: :cool:

[Cypres0099]

I think once people feel how much lighter 1/3 actually is, they'll be very impressed.

I know I am already. :D

[luke]

Tom don't give up on it, this will take care long standing complaint about Mags. In time this will likely be a big seller...

[Duke Henry]

I am curious to hear how this prototype would compare to an Intelliframe. Tom said it would be 1/3 the pull of the stock trigger, but everyone knows there is a bit of difference between the trigger pull of a complete stock classic mag and an RT Pro with intelliframe.

So, will this have a lighter trigger pull than an intelliframe? That is the question for me!

Interesting news, for sure.

[cphilip]

...in my opinion its a winner and worth doing it...

However was we all know there will be a certain crowd of say 200 people want it. I am one of them.

[Load SM5]

I liked it and plan on dropping it in the SFL for those "I feel like playing mechanical" days.

[askman]

I used to be IPSC shooter and gunsmith and shot a lot of 1911s. The trigger that I setup would be about 3.5lb for the competition gun, but very snappy and clean. I had it down to 2lb, but it just felt too mushy to me. My main gun had 4lb trigger on it. I would be happy with snappy clean trigger, even though it weighed a bit. My swing frame cocker is setup that way, and I am more than happy with it. (I use kapp frame, set to about 4lb trigger, and get almost 10bps, fast enough for me) If I can get mag to do that, I will definitely get one or two to retrofit my mags. I love all mechanical markers, (even though I have emag, only electro that I have) I liked cocker only for that reason. My guess is that it is probably leveraged sear system, being able to be retrofitted to all mag body rails.sign me up.

[Marchborne]

Originally posted by spantol
Tom-

A humble suggestion, regarding the "fashionable" paintball community: Screw 'em.

...

Personally, I'm thrilled about the prospect of lighter mechanical trigger, and I'll be ordering the day it hits the store.

WORD.

I had my newly-ULE'd RT out for Sunday morning (switched to the Xmag after the lunch break), and people (even those with electros)were impressed with the rate of fire. I was fanning like hell. Drop the pull weight by 66%, and you betcha anybody could "fashionably" walk the trigger with the best of 'em.

Remember, if the cost of a ULE mecha-mag could be kept below the cost of most electros, but with a comparable trigger pull, you will sell product.

[Wc Keep]

as much as i love my benchy i wouldnt mind giving one of these a go. tom rest assured ill be the first to own one and ill be the first to record 13 bps with a non-retro mag.

[Hexis]

Fanning is out of style? I'm feeling old...

Meh, I say, Meh!

Even with an EMag on the way, I'll gladly pay to beta test this, and not whine about it. Just as I did with level 10.

[temps]

I'm also one of the people who are going to buy this as soon as it comes out, Just one question. Will this work on standard valve mags or just retro ones?

[Micromag man!]

hehe, i too want one.. i have a benchy and i could have bought ANY marker i wanted but when i say my micromag about 3 years ago i had to have it...... osmething about my benchy make me choose it ovver any cocker or electro... my bushy (which i bought for a primary and my mag for backup) is siting in my closet right now :D :D i wouldnt trade my mag with benchy for any other marker.... exept for a mag with one of these beasts LONG LIVE MAGS!!

o and ps... dont be down, those who say fanning is for lamos r just jealus cause they cant get a good rof faning like u ;)

[nerobro]

Wow, this is a much bigger reaction than I expected. I didn't think the gun would fire on it's own as you degassed because the bolt force would be ballanced by the on/off even as pressure dropped. These spring Ideas... as on/off force dropped the gun could well fire on it's own. course you've done the testing ;-) And it's not something I"d screw with at home.

Either way, you can put me down for one of the trigger groups ;-)

The whole lawsuit thing is a bit concerning. Do companys like shocktech get sued when a shocktech bushy fires itself? it's standard legal practice to sue to make sure the blame goes the right place... or so it seems. That just seems a bit ... I dunno, I don't have the word for it. Then again legal matters such as these just tend to be "that" screwed up.

[Micromag man!]

it is 66% lighter, but is it as short as an i frame shorter or longer?... i cant wait..

[cdawg]

When I first bought my RT I had no clue how people got these insane rates of fire (10-13bps!). I found fanning the trigger extremely difficult, even with 950psi and a .740 on/off pin. Over a period of about a month I started "working out" my fingers, tapping forcefully on everything I could. In total sincerity... it worked.

I have spent enough money on my ULE RT (cosmetics and performance upgrades) to buy an Emag and have a few hundred left over. My point is that I would rather have a lighter mechanical marker than its heavier electrical counterpart; trigger pull set aside.

I am readily awaiting the Supermechanical Trigger Upgrade. Thanks Tom for not forgetting us mechanical AOers.

[jdev]

i would be more than happy to wait out the items cooking on the front burners for this lightweight trigger and pick one up first batch for testing.

1/3 less pull.. hey, i would be happy with 1/8th less pull, anything thats less is more :)

[xadamx]

i personally am extremely excited and will definatly pick one of these things up. keep up the good work tom and team

[hitech]

Can someone explain what "fanning" a trigger is? I know of lots of techniques to increase ROF, but don't know what they are called.

[lamby]

Hey, give me the trigger just so I can adjust the reactivity of my trigger on the emag (I am sick of having my trigger pin screwed in to the point where the emag can not shoot in manual mode. (I keep the pin in there so I can degass and disassemble the gun without having a on/off launched into orbit, or break it trying to gt my valve out.

Still looking for more info on manike's mod to prevent the "one pull two shot" problem that emags are plagued with.

[jdev]

hitech..

i asked the same thing.. got my answers here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80072

[Miscue]

Originally posted by lamby
Hey, give me the trigger just so I can adjust the reactivity of my trigger on the emag (I am sick of having my trigger pin screwed in to the point where the emag can not shoot in manual mode. (I keep the pin in there so I can degass and disassemble the gun without having a on/off launched into orbit, or break it trying to gt my valve out.

Still looking for more info on miscue's mod to prevent the "one pull two shot" problem that emags are plagued with.

?

That would be BlackVCG if anybody.

I'm just a shrub... don't mind me. ;)

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by reefer madness
No matter how popullar electros get, there will alwayse be those (like me) who simply cannot put up $1000+ for one. BK0: MSRP $259 or so.:)

[Marek]

Originally posted by WARPED1
BK0: MSRP $259 or so.:)

I agree, electros aren't all that high ($1000+), but where do you find that gun for that cheap? Or is it a black dragun or e-spyder ripoff?

[personman]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
ill be the first to record 13 bps with a non-retro mag.
I bet its been done! Probally with an autoresponce.. :p

TK, or anyone who knows what this is going to be like, I am wondering now, you said 99% of the guns.. does this include e-mags? If so, I will buy one if I have the money at the tiem...
I mean for manual mode, of corse, I have no desire to shorten the trigger on my e-mode. LOL
I dont really need it but whatever :p
Maybe if I ended up with a backup mag or maybe for my friend (I convinced him to buy a mag ;))

[ddinwdc]

then why spend time and money developing it? The 'mag needs a high-quality, after-maket, AGD-designed, etrigger. No bells, no whistles, no displays or even modes, just a semi with a bps adjustment. The days of mecha--like the twist-lock--are numbered. Two years from now, even the low-end guns will feature a quality etrigger. The purists may be clamoring for a mecha trigger, but the greater market is going e. We can lable market trends as stupid or "hype", but I think the advantages of etriggers are clear.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by joey d
1/3 less pull.. hey, i would be happy with 1/8th less pull, anything thats less is more :)

No read it again. 1/3 OF the previous pull...

It was in an Intelliframe and if Tom is saying retrofit my thoughts would be retrofitting Intelliframes here.

Electo trigger frames Tom has looked into but he was not anywhere near satisfied with what he saw. And put it way back on the back burner.

[GSKRAP]

one question... is this going to be a whole new trigger frame or is it just goign to be like part(s) that you can attach to your existing intelliframe?

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Marek


I agree, electros aren't all that high ($1000+), but where do you find that gun for that cheap? Or is it a black dragun or e-spyder ripoff? No, BK0, Bushmaster from ICD. It's the econo version.

[ddinwdc]

Maybe the Booyah or even the hyperframe, but there are a lot of top-rate etriggers out there now(eblade and racegun come to mind), and they are getting better and better every month. If given the choice between a $100 mecha trigger or a $200 etrigger, its a no-brainer. If the goal is to lighten the pull, then why do you care how its done? An etrigger will lighten it significantly more than a mecha, provide infinate bps and pull adjustability, and prevent short-strokes. A fast, light, and user-friendly trigger-why wouldn't you want that?

[Wc Keep]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Maybe the Booyah or even the hyperframe, but there are a lot of top-rate etriggers out there now(eblade and racegun come to mind), and they are getting better and better every month. If given the choice between a $100 mecha trigger or a $200 etrigger, its a no-brainer. If the goal is to lighten the pull, then why do you care how its done? An etrigger will lighten it significantly more than a mecha, provide infinate bps and pull adjustability, and prevent short-strokes. A fast, light, and user-friendly trigger-why wouldn't you want that?

i dont like electro triggers.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by AGD
The trigger is going to make it barring any completely unexpected stuff showing up. I am not mad at you guys at all, its just that a 66% improvement is a BIG percentage. You don't see that kind of jump in an evolved market like we have today. The products are just too close. I am disapointed that many will not think much of it.

AGD

it definitely is a Big percentage
and for those who disappoint you
allow the rest of us who are bouncing up and down in their computer chairs to reassure you
IT'S AWESOME :D
there will be tons of exstatic AOers when it comes out

[DiRTyBuNNy]

If given the choice between a $100 mecha trigger or a $200 etrigger, its a no-brainer.

I hope you're not trying to refer to the RaceGun Frame or the Eclipse eBlade...it's more like..between a $100 mech trigger and a $400-500 electro trigger it's not the much of a no brainer.

[piccolo_dbz39]

one reason i bought a mag was for the mechanical trigger. it has the best mech trigger i have pulled, blowbacks are horrible, i don't like the feel. i cna't sya much for cockers, but i have a feeling i would short stroke. my Storm Framed Pirahna was grreeat but too touchy, i don't know how many times i would accidently tap the trigger before snap shooting and shoot my bunker once or twice. i could of used thoose two balls to gog my opponent. but a mech trigger this light, MY GOD!!1 i can't wait. i know for sure because it's mech i wouldn't miss fire like the storm frame, but it'd make shooting log stringes easer and at a faster rate. I'm gonna save my pennies and buy me one of these bad boys

[RedRtMag]

from what this thing souds like it should be AWSOME i hope you guys go thru with this one....

AND PUT ME DOWN FOR 1 OF THESE

[FooTemps]

Some say it's a no brainer that the 200 dollar electro frame is better... Well, I don't... you know why? BECAUSE I CANT AFFORD A 200 DOLLAR GRIP! You've got to consider the poor people here... sheesh.

[TheJester]

Originally posted by AGD
I am disapointed that many will not think much of it.

AGD

is this 1 of your marketing techniques? i think all of us mech mag users will love you for it (like me :D )and you can trust my word that this mod will prolly be like the x-valves in my case...buying 1 with in 2 hours of their offical release

[warpfeedmod]

put me down on the list for 2 of these triggers.

one for me, one for my homies.


i don't care what people think of the mag, if it's too ugly, heavy, etc. I've grown accustomed to it, I've gotten used to how it fires, I can rip like no one else on my emag the way it's setup. I care about performance, not about some hyped up 8-color fade with ultralight bodies, etc. Sure that's all great and eye candy, but for the cost vs. performance, I'll take my emag over any other electro anyday.

I say roll with it Tom. If the rest of the "paintball community" doesn't understand or doesn't accept it, then to heck with them. They don't knwo what they're missing.


Also do you have pics of this "prototype" or are we not allowed to see them?

[chris007]

agd shoud make a e-frame like a hyperframe.and make the light mec. trigger.that way every bodys happy.

[ddindc]

section of the SATs, did ya? The $200 price refered to a stripped-down, no-frills 'mag etrigger. The reason the eblade and racegun are so expensive is because of their multiple features and complex egineering. I'm sugesting a very simple, no display, no mode etrigger. For those "poor people" (Foo-san), do you have $100 to buy the mech trigger? $150 for a ULE? $325 for an x-valve? Then $200 isn't that much more for significantly more performance. I would agree, however, that if AGD could not deliver said trigger for around a $200 price point, then it would be too expensive. Of late, AGD has done a pretty good job looking forward; the ULE accessories, the x-valve, the emag and x-mag are all great innovations that have--at the very least--kept AGD current. When given the chance to develop an after-market trigger, I think a mech trigger would be an anachronim and out of step with the defining trends and futures of this industry.

[SI|ENT|3O|3]

OMG!! I can't wait, I can't wait, it's gonna be a piece of cake...!!This trigger is gonna be the best thing ever. Screw powdercoating my gun...looks eh! id rather have this puppy..cant wait!
-sebastian

[FooTemps]

"san"? wow... I feel older now... lol, good thing you didn't call me chan or kun or anything...

I wouldn't say a mech trigger isn't a step back though. Think about it. If they put these on stock, mags will outperform the competition by an even larger margin than they already do.

[Smoken]

ddindc, Don't insult other members' reading abilities if you yourself make spelling errors ("anachronim" should be anachronism-- though I respect your ability to use the word). DirtyBunny is correct when he speaks of a high quality e-frame as being $400-500, b/c no company has yet produced a hihg quality (good tolerances, good solenoid) e-frame with no frills yet. Tom attemped to do this, but could not find a system that he was satisfied with, aside from the e-mag. I really think that you underestimate the marketability of a high-quality mechanical gun. People still drop over a thousand into cockers without going electro. Not everyone can make the jump to a high end electro, but many can start with a mag or cocker and slowly upgrade.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

ddinc, I am in total agreement with you. If a no-frills E-trigger could be devised, nice short light and crisp pull with no screens, etc, just on and off modes, for $200 or a dropin kit for Intelliframes for $125 or so, then AGD should definitely go with that, especially if a switch to manual mode could still be factored in (safety works for both modes, switch can turn off electric but safety will work even if electronic mode is on). However, I think this might be difficult to do.

My guess is a microswitch located up near the safety, kind of above it but not so far forward it can work when the safety is on, would give a sickly short, light and crisp pull. A sliding switch that pushes the microswitch back so that the trigger can go in full range of motion and shoot manually if the electric mode is off would allow a simple switch to manual mode. The drop-in switch kit would basically be a switch with some of it cut out to fit it around the safety, shortened microswitch lever so pushing it back away from the trigger (off mode) doesn't get in the way of the safety or pull, and the battery could be stored in the grip frame.

The question is how to take a 9V or 9.6V and convert enough energy to properly cycle the Mag without risk of hurting the sear or anything. Solenoids do this, but this is where things get expensive and I presume because Mags are so high pressure the push required is causing the problem of cheaper E-frames being available.

So.... unless my idea holds water or someone else comes up with it, AGD has done very well in providing Emags and Xmags with Eframes and eyes, and hopefully soon a great alternative for those of us who would like a little less pull weight at a price below 150-200 or an eframe for $350 or some obscene number like that. If an easy Eframe was possible and could be sold affordable, someone like Shocktech would have already devised it. I got my ideas but they're simply that and I don't have the money or time to keep experimenting on them. AGD does and they are definitely on a roll for creating cool things, so keep it up AGD, you keep impressing us. And remember that it's our critiquing, commenting, speculating, and such that has played a key role in encouraging these new innovations.

[Russ]

Myself, I look forward to the 66% lighter pull with the new Mechanical trigger.

...and I'll definitely by one (maybe 2 :) )

[ddindc]

Here's something I CAN spell: anal retentive.

[nerobro]

Actually.. a light trigger would make a 9 volt powered e-frame feasable. the reason for the big solinoid is that you'll pulling all the weight of the normal trigger pull with a little solinoid. this may be a step in a good direction for a "cheaper" electroframe

[davidb]

Ask somebody why they shoot an electro, chances are they'll tell you one of two things - Either the trigger, or the speed. The trigger they of course like because it allows them to achieve speed.
Ask an intelligent person why they shoot a Cocker, and chances are they'll respond with something like, "I just like the feel of them" or "They're just fun to shoot".

I would say that most people out there don't like electro triggers for any reason other than the speeds that they can achieve on them. Shooting a mech gun is fun for an entirely different reason. I don't know what it is, but it is damn near universal. Shooting an electro is fun for one sole reason - the shooter feels like a paintslingin' machine.

Tom says he can shoot a gun with this mod at the same speed he shoots his X! Do you have any idea how fast that is?! From what I've gotten from Tom in the years I've been on this forum, I'm pretty sure he shoots the same way I do when I shoot an electro. I will tell you right now, Tom, you show me a mod that lets me shoot that way on a Mag, and I will show you a Cocker in a box in my closet!

He said the parts were small. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that these SuperMech triggers aren't going to be all that expensive to manufacture. Meaning that it should be no big deal to make them stock Mag equipment...

Mech triggers are an anachronysm... Which is why when the Cocker swing triggers and Cocker Hyperframes came out, everybody passed up the swing frames for the Hyperframes! ;) Even now, you'll see a ton of hinge frames any time you go to a paintball field - far more than you'll see of Race/E-Blade/whateverelseisouttherenowelectro cockers.

The way I see it, this promises to make Mags the most fun to shoot guns available! Electro-equivalent speed, mechanical no-good-reason fun, and reliability (be it real or perceived).

Ask yourself this- If you could activate a microswitch or really pull a trigger :D at the same speed, for the same duration, with the same effort or lack thereof, which would be more fun?

Tom, if you doubt the selling ability of a GOOD mechanical trigger, please consult your good bud, well... Bud! :p I meant that about hanging up the Cocker for a Mag if this goes through!

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Maybe the Booyah or even the hyperframe, but there are a lot of top-rate etriggers out there now(eblade and racegun come to mind), and they are getting better and better every month. If given the choice between a $100 mecha trigger or a $200 etrigger, its a no-brainer. If the goal is to lighten the pull, then why do you care how its done? An etrigger will lighten it significantly more than a mecha, provide infinate bps and pull adjustability, and prevent short-strokes. A fast, light, and user-friendly trigger-why wouldn't you want that?

because dude
we don't like batteries!
call me a purist if you will
but unless i can switch it to manual mode
i'll never own an electro
there are a lot of us that prefer to leave the mouse click microswitches on our mouses

oh ya btw didnt the makers of both the race frame and the booyah go out of business?

[FooTemps]

hmmm... you put it very well davidb... The feel of an electro trigger and mech trigger are so different... If they both are light I'd pick the mech, it'd feel better imo. I can click a mouse all I want, but when I fire a mag I get a good feel for the trigger pull. The mag trigger pull doesn't feel like a simple click. If you get that same feel in 1/3 the effort I'd be happy.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by nerobro
Actually.. a light trigger would make a 9 volt powered e-frame feasable. the reason for the big solinoid is that you'll pulling all the weight of the normal trigger pull with a little solinoid. this may be a step in a good direction for a "cheaper" electroframe

Good point!

[FooTemps]

BUT...

The light trigger is most of a chance a trigger assembly, not a valve mod.

[SPECIAL_K_06]

id take one

[Smoken]

Actually.. a light trigger would make a 9 volt powered e-frame feasable. the reason for the big solinoid is that you'll pulling all the weight of the normal trigger pull with a little solinoid. this may be a step in a good direction for a "cheaper" electroframe
A very valid point, however even if this new lighter trigger makes it possible for an effective, cheap e-frame ($200) you have to add the cost of the new trigger to that. This would probably bring the total price to about $300. The advantage would be that this could be done in steps rather than in one big purchase. Also if this new trigger is 66% lighter, after using one will people still feel a need for an electro trigger on their mag?

BTW, I'll take two.

[Fastkid]

I'd buy one if it came out

[nerobro]

Hmm.. a pair of flat LiIon batterys either side of the sear... taht would leave the whole lower frame open for a solinoid and electronics... put in an uncapped board..... Now I"m just fantasizing ;-) But the batterys are $25 a cell.. cells make 3.6v Hmm...... could we find a solinoid that would pull the sear.. well we need to see how much force it takes. A servo could be an option as well. (the small ones are really freaking fast)

www.servocity.com Check them out ;-) Hmm... Actually.. we could even hook a cam up to a servo rigged to run continous in one direction. Hmm...... 2 microswitches, a microservo, running on 3.6 volts.. the servo would allow it to run on a single cell.

[RaTfreak]

I'd love to try one. Getting tired of a tight trigger.

Hey Mr. Kaye...if you need a test "pilot" I'm you man.:D

[Toakes22]

Is this a replacement trigger or triggerframe? Either way I'll buy one.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by Toakes22
Is this a replacement trigger or triggerframe? Either way I'll buy one.

the way Tom worded it
"The parts are small and fragile so we have to figure out a way to make it idiot proof. There is a 99% chance this mod will retrofit to every gun we ever made. Its a two minute parts swap."

sounds to me like it's not an entire triggerframe but an add on part kinda like the level 10

[FooTemps]

Maybe Tom should make this into a frame/trigger package? That'd bump up the price of whatever 100 dollars but 200 for a superlight intelliframe sounds like a nice idea imo. It'd be convinient and it'd be tuned and idiot proof out of box.

[Jerhew]

but i already have an intelliframe :(

i think they should just sell it as cheap as possible for those of us that don't want to give up the frames we have
and then of course make it standard equipment on new guns

knowing agd that's most likely what they'll do anyway
so im not worried :)

[Toakes22]

word. TTT

[cdawg]

Are you joking? TO THE TOP BABY I NEED THIS UPDATE.

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy


I hope you're not trying to refer to the RaceGun Frame or the Eclipse eBlade...it's more like..between a $100 mech trigger and a $400-500 electro trigger it's not the much of a no brainer.

Do you know how much Eclipse is profitting off of the eblade? I believe it to be an obscene amount.

AGD - People will listen and believe what the majority has to say....Electros are more popular now a days... Make a nice looking, fast, customizable via firmware grip with a cool logo that stands out on the side....Sponser a proteam by giving them free markers and your sales will go through the roof....

If you put an egrip out with an adjustable trigger pull, options like adjustable response, variable bps settings, shot counter, game timer....maybe a few other simple things...People will go ape.

I have a disgusting amount of unique ideas for an egrip...If you want them, your welcome to them. I'll even help code the ones that need coding.

[Hexis]

Meh, even with an EMag I want a nice backup ReTro setup waiting for me. I suspect I'll never need it, but I would love a lighter trigger on it. If people want an EMag, buy an EMag. If the price is an issue, live with a mech marker for another year and save.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I think good points as to why a person hasn't gone electric on their Mag yet are:

1.) A Person hasn't bought an EMag, XMag, or E-frame for their Mags because they can't afford it. At 300-350 to upgrade the trigger frame or a 900-1200 for a new marker to replace your old one, thats expensive.

OR

2.) They have no interest in going electric because too much crap can go wrong with an Electronic trigger and the expenses of replacing parts like Solenoids are too high to risk it. Paintball is a rough sport of equipment and repairs on fancy gear can be great. If they only have one paintball gun and it's all electric, meaning if it goes down they're done for the day, they're not going to risk it. I am in that boat, one gun and I like it being reliable without worrying if I'll get through half a day, board will fry, and I'll be done for the day and have to spend $150 fixing my gun the next day.

OR

3.) No one has come out with an affordable LED, E-Matrix style, basic electronic grip. I don't care if the thing has an LCD that can tell me my BPS being fired, time for service, location of the nearest 7-11, and all the other crap these E-frames do. It's the trigger pull and it being short and light enough to walk the trigger and make reliable snapshooting and ROFs possible. Look at the price differences between the LED Matrix and LCD Matrix. Thats the LCD features and fancy board doing that. A basic grip with a simple on/off power switch and the electronic (switch, solenoid, whatever) trigger that is short, light, fast, and reliable while still being affordable and, even better, retrofitting current AGD grips, is possible but would require innovation which AGD shows no lack of. They are innovators.

Now.... one and two basically say that anyone who wants to go electronic with AGD has choices now and either have, will, or will switch to a different company. So if 3.) happens you'll have opened up whole new opportunities and business. It sounds like this new thing, which I still don't know exactly how it will lighten the pull, will be in the right direction and if it retrofits grips thats excellent. Now, if your next innovation was a second mod that uses the first one to make the electronic mode possible while keeping the switch to manual mode work while keeping it LED based and affordable, you'd be geniuses and have really completed the improvement of any and all Mags.

So.... would a microswitch and solenoid set up as an LED on/off with no LCD frills be able to be used with this new enhancement and because of the lighter pull not require so much power to be used by the solenoid to achieve the power to pull it? Could it be hardcoded to allow high enough BPS rate that the sear will cycle fully and not result in bolt or sear wear. The Angel Speed has it capped and is made affordable because of it being a fancy LED. Use a simple LED and you can compete very well with that marker. Don't compete, it could blow you guys right out of the water because I'm even looking at it right now, WDP is on the edge of revolutionizing their guns just like the Level 10 did, and it's in your price range now.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by Hexis
Meh, even with an EMag I want a nice backup ReTro setup waiting for me. I suspect I'll never need it, but I would love a lighter trigger on it. If people want an EMag, buy an EMag. If the price is an issue, live with a mech marker for another year and save.

amen
think about it
with the emag, xmag, and a proposed electro grip
they'd be competing against themselves....with 3 different products?!

maybe once the ultralight trigger mod comes out some other company will jump on the cheaper electro grip
but i kinda doubt agd will do yet another E grip
once the public gets to feel what 1/3 the pull really feels like, i think a lot more people will be willing to use a mechanical mag

[Jack & Coke]

Too bad Centerflag's Hyperframe is ONLY capable of 5-10 BPS and can damage the bolt.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/Cflag_title.jpg

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/package.jpg

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/diagram.jpg

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/bolt_damage.jpg

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Too bad Centerflag's Hyperframe is ONLY capable of 5-10 BPS and can damage the bolt.


The new board is capped at 20 bps (the old one was capped at 13bps). If you know how to install them they won't damage the bolt. The new board also allows you to set the solenoid dwell (short dwell time can cause bolt/sear wear).

I put my Hyperframe on my brothers mini and fired it at 15bps fullauto. One of these days were going to throw a halo on it and see how high we can it to go. :D

[Jack & Coke]

That would be awesome if you could make a video of the Hyperframe hitting 15-20! :)http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Back to Mechanical Trigger discussion...

Do you think, with this new AGD mod (1/3 the pressure to pull the trigger), we'll be able to "walk" our fingers?

[hitech]

Yeah, 15bps fullauto is impressive. I experenced "barrel climb". It's easy enough to control, but not something you expect from a paintball marker! ;) Hopefully I can get the video done.

As for walking the trigger, I have no idea. I can't do it now. However, I'd bet that Covadsucks could. The trigger pull on a stock hyperframe is fairly heavy and he had no problem walking mine! Actually, walking is not very descriptive. It's more like running! ;)

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hitech
Yeah, 15bps fullauto is impressive. I experenced "barrel climb". It's easy enough to control, but not something you expect from a paintball marker! ;) Hopefully I can get the video done.

As for walking the trigger, I have no idea. I can't do it now. However, I'd bet that Covadsucks could. The trigger pull on a stock hyperframe is fairly heavy and he had no problem walking mine! Actually, walking is not very descriptive. It's more like running! ;)

I checked out the centerflag site... I guess they're only selling the old board (5-10 max bps). Where did you get this "new" board?

Also, regarding the "finger walking", I talking about "walking" the trigger on Tom's new mechanical invention that this thread is about.:)

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
I checked out the centerflag site... I guess they're only selling the old board (5-10 max bps). Where did you get this "new" board?

They don't seem to update their web site. They called me in responce to a note I sent them with a returned part. You have to call them to get the new board. It's the same board they are using for their auto cocker frame.


Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Also, regarding the "finger walking", I talking about "walking" the trigger on Tom's new mechanical invention that this thread is about.:)

Yeah. I can't walk on ANY trigger. Hopwever, I'll bet the pull isn't much harder than the stock hyperframe. Covadsucks could walk that trigger. However, he can probably walk any trigger. ;)

Basically, I have no idea. ;)

[Jerhew]

alright that'd be awesome to be able to walk a mech trigger
the only time i ever seen someone walking a trigger was on a matrix
i imagine someone could do it on a hinge cocker but ive never seen it

alright so i imagine it's still months away from production
but im getting excited about this ultralight trigger again
i can't wait
i loved my retromag last weekend at CCQXV...so i can't even imagine how sweet it'll be with 1/3 the pull...

[AGD]

Guys,

This trigger is NOT light enough to walk or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Sorry,

AGD

[xadamx]

Originally posted by AGD
Guys,

This trigger is NOT light enough to walk or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Sorry,

AGD

Thats ok Tom! Im sure it is still going to be kick read end! maybe im really old school but i shoot like this: place two fingers on the trigger and pull. haha i guess im not up with the current trigger shooting meathods :D oh well

[cdawg]

Tom, please don't get discouraged.

Here is what I can do as far as "walking" goes on my mag right now. I turned down the output pressure so I won't be accused of sweet spotting. Towards the end of the clip I fire slowly to demonstrate this. My point is that you CAN walk a mechanical mag. If the necessary force to pull the trigger were even halved, think of the possibilities.

Right click, "Save Target As"

Video of my attempt to Walk (http://www.cabdj.com/forums/walk.mpg)

[J Murder]

im confused, he says it will fit all mags and be reactive, but does this mean that standard valve mags with this mod will be reactive? That would be sweet!:D

[cdawg]

Tom, Please tell me if you watch the video.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by cdawg
Tom, please don't get discouraged.

Here is what I can do as far as "walking" goes on my mag right now. I turned down the output pressure so I won't be accused of sweet spotting. Towards the end of the clip I fire slowly to demonstrate this. My point is that you CAN walk a mechanical mag. If the necessary force to pull the trigger were even halved, think of the possibilities.

Right click, "Save Target As"

Video of my attempt to Walk (http://www.cabdj.com/forums/walk.mpg)

that trigger seems rather short compared to my intelli...
do you have some sort of trigger stop or something?

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by AGD
This trigger is NOT light enough to walk or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

i can walk a level 7 with a benchie. even though the pull is so long that it's still not that fast doing that. would the pull be heavier than that when installed on a dye frame and retro?

[Jack & Coke]

cdawg,

cool clip!

[AGD]

Cdawg,


Hummm..... It apears that you have something there! You will CERTAINLY be able to shoot like a raped ape with the new trigger. Can anyone else do that?

AGD

[Miscue]

"raped ape?"

umm... :D

I'd like to see some people hitting some wicked BPS... w/o electronics.

[reefer madness]

i hope the new trigger will be able to keep up with the raped apes

[Jerhew]

but seriously
is it just me or does that trigger pull look pretty short to begin with?

my rt is fast but not short enough to walk
not even close

[Jerhew]

oh i wasn't disputing that...
i just want to have MY trigger that short :D

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Wow, not a bad trigger pull. My question is what exactly is involved in Tunaman's mod that makes it that short. By all technicality I could polish the on/off down and set a trigger stop or adjust the sear rod so that the trigger stop just after it fires and just at the point the sear is high enough to hold the bolt, but that would cause serious wear am I right? Seems like a pull that short works but is it risking any extra wear to the setup?

[cdawg]

I have an AGD (not modified) .740 on/off pin. That's it. ***Edited out by cdawg*** There's nothing else special. When your marker isn't going runaway or sweetspotting, you aren't risking bolt lip or sear wear. Walking isn't not hard to do, you just have to practice it. Too many people are lazy, so they say, "Hey, why not buy an electro." My grandma can walk an electro, and she's 85.

[nerobro]

so what you did was tighten up the timing on the mag :-) that's almost standard practice ;-)

I"m still anxoius to try out one of the new triggers.

[MAX]

yah me 2!

[cdawg]

I realize it's almost standard practice. Which furthur emphasizes my point.

You can walk a trigger on a RT without sweetspotting.

This new upgrade will make it sooo much easier. I think in that video I was doing somewhere around 9-10bps; nothing great but definently faster than a standard pull.

[cdawg]

I forgot to add...

The main reason I want this upgrade is so I can shoot like raped ape!!!

[Jerhew]

hehe raped ape
yet another classic TK quote

so all i have to do is get a .740 on/off pin..
drop it in my retro valve and it'll shoot like that without any harmful repercussions?
so why does everyone say that you can't do a trigger job on a mag without causing damage to it?
that seems rediculously simple....
and you definitely have a sweet trigger pull
are there ANY harmful repercussions at all to doing this?
if not why isn't it stock?

Tom(or someone who is in the know) if you set up your trigger like this then drop the new trigger mod in(whenever it comes out)
will everything work properly?

[cdawg]

For some people a .740 is too short. You do not want your marker to go full auto or run away. A lot depends on your exact setup. Send your marker to AGD.

[cdawg]

Up~~~Priority!

[Dubstar112]

Jack, the old boards were capped at 10 in hypermode. In semi it was capable of 13 max. Which is faster than most people realize. I owned one, I had NO problems with bolt wear or any thing of that sort.

Walking that trigger... nice job. I think the key is just less surface area on the on/off. Maybe this has been mentioned already, I havent read the whole thread. A smaller on/off diameter would be effective, atleast I think..

Edit: Lighter trigger, means longer battery life in the Emag! Less force the solenmoboid ;) has to pull... Slim fast for the Emag?

[Cryer]

OK, i'm curious, CDawg:
other than the X-valve (and on/off pin, of course), my set-up is nearly identical to yours. Once I get the X, I just need a .740 pin, right? Did you use a trigger stop, etc? or does the new on/off pin simply make the trigger pull shorter and leave no slack?
Do you experience runaway/FA due to the new pin?
Due to your experience with that mod, is it any harder/easier to short-stroke?or has it become (dare I say it?)impossible?

*edit-it looks like this could have the potential to be incorporated into this lighter trigger design. If this goes well, imagine what the reprocussions could be for the paintball industry...
Mags would finally have the respect they deserve! Other, formerly more popular, E-markers would dwindle in popularity as a dieing breed! All others would bow before us in humility and submition! AGD will rule the world!
Well, something like that...

[kevdupuis]

I'm up for a SLT for my,( start chant ) Y-Grip, Y-Grip, Y-Grip.

[cdawg]

Originally posted by Cryer
OK, i'm curious, CDawg:
other than the X-valve (and on/off pin, of course), my set-up is nearly identical to yours. Once I get the X, I just need a .740 pin, right?

Get a .745 and .740, and try them both. If you go runaway with the .740, then use the .745.

Did you use a trigger stop, etc?

No.

or does the new on/off pin simply make the trigger pull shorter and leave no slack?

There is slack, but a lot less

Do you experience runaway/FA due to the new pin?

Never. If properly set up, neither will you

Due to your experience with that mod, is it any harder/easier to short-stroke?or has it become (dare I say it?)impossible?

Never short stroked this mag in my life (no lie)

*edit-it looks like this could have the potential to be incorporated into this lighter trigger design. If this goes well, imagine what the reprocussions could be for the paintball industry...
Mags would finally have the respect they deserve! Other, formerly more popular, E-markers would dwindle in popularity as a dieing breed! All others would bow before us in humility and submition! AGD will rule the world!
Well, something like that...

Tru dat.

[Cryer]

I have to go spend some money...:D

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by Cryer
I have to go spend some money...:D

hehehehe

me too :D

[Fastkid]

Me want one.

[Ghengis]

cdawg... for the rest of us dummies.. can you make a picture guideline on what to do and how to do and where the heck do you get a .740 or .745 on/off pin? I wanna walk that trigger too...

:)

[DyNasTy]

Tom I think you are looking at this in the wrong way, sorry I skimmed through everyone elses post but read yours...

Fanning actually is often used by some of the best players in the world, i mean walking and normal pull is good but I can do a 12 ball string easy just buy fanning and I still keep the gun straight wihtout it moving. So it has advantages for a back player. I on the other hand play front but i still use it when i pop over a lay down.

About it being 1/3 righter, so what? that is an AMAZING improvement, if you think you can amke it lighter atleast give it a try. If not 1/3 is good enough for me

ill be one of the first to have this thing on order.

[xadamx]

Originally posted by DyNasTy


About it being 1/3 righter, so what? that is an AMAZING improvement, if you think you can amke it lighter atleast give it a try. If not 1/3 is good enough for me



its 2/3 rds lighter... the pull is 1/3 the original pull.

[cdawg]

Here you go.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

wow! i thoguht the trigger pull would be 33% lighter, but u say its more likr 66% lighter? (than it is now) thats amazing, yea tom, if u didnt need as much force to cycle, could u give the solenoid less power and make the batterpacks smaller and lighter?

[FalconGuy016]

This is the first time ive ever said this on one of these threads, and its true

Ill buy this!

[slpnsld]

where can i get a .745 and .740 on/off pin online

[Hexis]

Tom had his XMag at Paintball Sam's biggame on saturday with the super light trigger. I got a chance to play with it. All I can say is OMFG is it nice. It's super lige, nice and crips still, not sloppy at all. It's not quite as important as level 10, but with both, the result is a super light pull paintball gun that can not chop, and does not require batteries.

My thought is: "Where do I sign up for the first public beta? You want CC info now? Overnight that bad boy to me."

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

So Hexis I presume you shot it in manual mode to test the new superlight trigger... couple questions:

1.) how much difference did you feel between the electronic trigger and the superlight? I presume there was plenty, as electronic is insanely light, but I'd be curious to know.

2.) in manual with this new trigger, do you still get the reactive feel of the trigger pushing back on your finger? is it reduced or the same as a Mag with the XValve in it right now?

3.) and idea where exactly the Modification goes? is it something in the grip helping to pull the sear? does it replace the sear rod? is it up near the valve? what is actually causing the improvement?

Any light you can shed on these would be great, and if Tom mentioned when it'll be around and available we're DEFINITELY like to hear that. Thanks!

[Cryer]

One thing is for sure:
one of those kits, when they become available, will be shipped to a humble little town called San Angelo, TX.

However, I do have to balance my limited finances between an X-valve, Y-grip (upon it's much anticipated release), this mod, and the usual expenses (ie: eating food)
If I knew about when the Y and this mod were to be released, I could better plan for my financial future:p

[Hexis]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
So Hexis I presume you shot it in manual mode to test the new superlight trigger... couple questions:

1.) how much difference did you feel between the electronic trigger and the superlight? I presume there was plenty, as electronic is insanely light, but I'd be curious to know.

2.) in manual with this new trigger, do you still get the reactive feel of the trigger pushing back on your finger? is it reduced or the same as a Mag with the XValve in it right now?

In manual mode. Tom had something going on, so EMode did not work. All I really have to compare it to is my ReTro, Classic and a friends XValve. It was insane light. Not as light as the EMags I have tried in the past, but pretty close.

The reactive feel was non existant. From what TK described this was an option he was playing with to avoid all the anti-RT stuff going on in some parts of the paintball world. What I shot was not a finished design, it still needs some adjustment. Even in it's raw form it was very nice. I'm sure TK will end up with an insanely nice mod. Finally, we will have the proverbial "Mag trigger job".


Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
3.) and idea where exactly the Modification goes? is it something in the grip helping to pull the sear? does it replace the sear rod? is it up near the valve? what is actually causing the improvement?

Any light you can shed on these would be great, and if Tom mentioned when it'll be around and available we're DEFINITELY like to hear that. Thanks!

No idea about the internals. I don't think Tom will share that until the design is fully finished. He did say the parts were fragile, and he was thinking about having it done in SS to help with durability.

[jaylock33]

Lighter pull would be a nice little suprise for someone on the other end of a mag:D

[reefer madness]

Originally posted by Hexis



The reactive feel was non existant. From what TK described this was an option he was playing with to avoid all the anti-RT stuff going on in some parts of the paintball world.

NO! with no recive trigger i would have no need for it. i was looking for the lighter pull to make my rt faster like surpass the electros fast(or at least keep up wthout fanning). RT+1/3pull=fast as hell for a mech

[reefer madness]

im wanting the rt kickback of the trigger to still exist. sweetspotting is not what im going after due to internal damage/tourny rules i just want to increase my ROF. stock mags vs rt with intelli and trigger mod vs emag of course the emag will be fastest but the modded rt will be damn close i think with the mag taking a very distant third.

is there still kickback with this mod?

[Jerhew]

maybe Tom purposely turned down the tank output pressure to take the rt affect out...if what Hexis said is true, Tom is looking for an alternative to rt's so he probably wanted to show off the trigger without any reactiveness

merely speculation...
maybe Tom would shed some light on the situation...

[Hexis]

I got the impression that you could choose to have the RT effect or not. That could be totally wrong, but it's what it sounded like to me. I would wait to hear from Tom either way before you get too excited.

I know some folks are worried about the RT style triggers being banned at tournies, so Tom is working on a solution. He does have the RT effect working, so give him some time to prototype the non RT effect stuff too.

[cdawg]

I too would like this mod to maintain the reactivity of the RT Valve. If it did not, then there would be no reason to have an RT valve over a Classic (weight set aside). Realistically, shootdown is not a problem when you can't shoot over 10bps.

I bet Tom and his elves sit around reading our ignorant speculations and laugh all day.

[aut911]

I really want to see this mod come into production because i really want to waste a couple of angels at my next tourny because they think mags suck. If there was only one thing that I like about Tom(besides the mustache that reminds me of my dad) it has to be the fact that he never stops improving his products.

my hats off to you Tom.

aut

[MinimagRockin']

I find it hard to believe that the paintball world is whinning about the RTs yet they have no problem whatsoever with electronic markers that have literally hair triggers that can reach bps of ridiculous speeds, seems like a witch hunt to me. I mean I can understand them not wanting you to go full auto on your rts, no problem, but otherwise...

[AGD]

The trigger Hexis shot did have some reactivity to it you just couldn't feel it too well. We are going to put more back in, it currently doesn't have enough.

AGD

[afrankart]

I'm 1000% sure that in (hopefully) a short while I will be the proud owner of a SFL triggered mag.

[ntn4502]

Originally posted by afrankart
I'm 1000% sure that in (hopefully) a short while I will be the proud owner of a SFL triggered mag.

LMK, maybe we could play sometime

[Magluvr]

Am I right in believing that this mod will work on my LX Mini, or will I have to go ReTro/X to use this mod on my gun. (This is probably a really lame question to most, but some people give me the impression that the Mini AIR won't work with the mod.)

[FooTemps]

Magluvr, it will work on ALL MAGS. That's what TK said and if TK said his mod will retrofit all mags then it will.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by AGD
The trigger Hexis shot did have some reactivity to it you just couldn't feel it too well. We are going to put more back in, it currently doesn't have enough.

AGD

exactly the sort of thing i wanted to hear :D :D :D

[cphilip]

Ok well enough of this On Off pin talk. Its not the thing to do. Your better off waiting to see what Tom comes up with there.

You know when you adjust this on off pin relationship you are completely changing the sear lock up/release and Prefire-fire-and rear post fire travel points of the trigger to where the result can be unpredictable. And on the edge of no fire or runnaway. And that distance and relationship is carefully balanced by that pin. And when you try and get on the edge of bolt lock up failing or coming in too soon you eat bolts/sears and risk fire that you cannot control. Or even failure to fire when pulled to the side. That relationship is NOT something you want to risk messing with as it will not stay where you put it. And it will void your warranty on those parts too. You cannot improve on that carefull tolerance balance without risking making the marker not dependable in the long run. There is little gain from it and much to lose. You are creating a malfunction that not only will change as it goes but will eventualy missfire or not fire when you need it the most.

You should wait and see what Tom can do WITHIN the tolerance levels and within the critical trigger swing relationships that exist in a dependable setting. He has shown he can and I can assure you that its not by doing this.

Do not mess with that on off pin length. You do not want the results that you will get from this. You are forewarned. If it was a good plan it would already be incorporated don't cha know! Think about it! ;)

[Tunaman]

Guys! I am getting an *** reaming from the higher-ups over this crap. Changing your on-off pin from the stock one is the WRONG thing to do! There is NO "MOD" that can be done using different length pins. I do sell them...same as AGD does. I have no control over what you do with these pins or what valve you are putting them in. I DO NOT encourage or recommend that you change anything in the on/off assembly to lighten your trigger pull! Just because I sold you a pin, dont use my name when referring to this "MOD"! Changing the pin lengths WILL mess up your marker so dont do it! If it as simple as that, don't you think Tom would have included it already? And from now on, if you want pins, get them from the AGD store. I dont sell them anymore!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[cdawg]

Tunaman and cphilip...

I'm sorry. I have always been under the impression that a shorter AGD on/off pin would not harm the internals if set up properly. I'm still not completely sure why they sell shorter on/off pins. I know you can send your marker to AGD and they install a shorter on/off pin. In no way did I mean to get you in trouble or hurt your business. I was promoting it. I've edited your name out of all my posts.

[Dayspring]

I have always been a proponent against people messing with their on-off pins. Sadly, since I'm not an AGD tech, apparently people don't think I know what I'm talking about.

Maybe now that Phil and Tuna said it, people will start believing. :rolleyes:

[cphilip]

The reason there are different on off pins is to adjust tolerances back to spec. So that any deviations that may have occured will be taken out not placed in as is proposed here. Sometimes you have to adjust something out of tolerance to get the firing point back into the middle of the range to make it fire reliably and have the right amount of return and follow thorugh. It is not designed to adjust it "Out of Spec" as is proposed here.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I wonder if the new mod is a new sear setup that slides instead of pushes up on the on-off pin? That would mean the resistance would only be the new sears front holding the bolt and the replacement for the back part that would slide and seal the on-off by pushing up the pin. I don't know, the multiple parts thing has me wondering. Either way, I can't wait to see/get this!

[GT]

maybe this has been discussed but i really dont want to read 6 pages.

what about a spring attatcked to the end of the sear and attaching above the sear inside the frame? or maybe a spring that pushes from the bottom of the frame to the underside of the sear?

just saying......

jb

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by gtrsi
maybe this has been discussed but i really dont want to read 6 pages.

what about a spring attatcked to the end of the sear and attaching above the sear inside the frame? or maybe a spring that pushes from the bottom of the frame to the underside of the sear?

just saying......

jb

well there already is atleast one working prototype
Tom hasn't spilled the beans on how it actually works...
as of right now we can only guess

[GT]

Originally posted by Jerhew
we can only guess

I know that is what makes this board kinda fun. AGD posts something then we get to guess, most of the time we are all pretty far off.

jb

[Hexis]

I can pretty safely deduce that is has a lot to do with the On/Off assembly. Since Tom is adjusting the design to effect the reactivity of the trigger.

I do know the prototype I got to try felt great, and Tom was all but apologizing for it. I have every confidence that the end result will be well worth the wait.

[aut911]

DUDE! I love tom, in a non licking way mind you. He just cant stop making his guns better. Since the RT hes been on the up and up double time. And i thought that LX was the best thing yet. now super light trigger for my classic? woo hoo well anyways could Tom give us an approximate the trigger pull off weight? like 2, 3 pounds mabye? ah no big deal. what is the classic automags stock pull off weight anyways? 7 8 punds?

aut

[ddinwdc]

Having given it much thought, a nice light mecha trigger would be nice to have. I have always been a devote of the KISS principle, and, well, if you can get e performance without the batteries, then more power to you. However, there are some advantages to an e trigger that can't be attained with a mecha, namely vision and the elimination of short-stroking. I know, LX solves these problems, but not as efficiently (with vision, the gun won't even fire if the ball isn't sitting properly--better than having to fire and reset). So, if AGD wants to make a mecha trigger, more power to them--I'd certainly buy it. However, I hope that they will continue to examine, with real effort, an after-market, no frills etrigger as well.

[Dayspring]

The only problem with your idea DD is that an eye on a mag is problematic at best.

On an Autococker (with the Eblade) you have to drill two holes into the body only.

If you were to adapt this technology to the mag, you'd have to drill the body. (Non-ULE) This isn't the big issue really... Granted, it's stainless steel and will not want to drill anywhere as easily as the aluminum would. Secondly, you'd have to drill every barrel you own. Cocker bodies have a breech AND barrel area. In a standard Mag, they are one and the same. This may interfere with the twist lock system. (I can't tell cuz I don't have a barrel in front of me.) This begins to get technically complicated for an eye.

HOWEVER, using this eye idea for the new ULE bodies is an excellent one. The breech area and the barrel are seperate. They already drilled two holes for the detents (if I am not mistaken.) Why not use that hole to house the eye?

it's a thought.

[Jack & Coke]

The eye hole cannot be the dent hole.

The eye hole has to be in alignment with the ball stack and closer to the bottom of the tube.

[bojo-master]

if it can raise my rof by 2 or 3 bps i might not have to bust the bank gor a x-mag.

[ddinwdc]

on the assumption that the stainless steel bodies will eventually be phased out, allowing for the ULE bodies to be standard on all mags. In fact, I would venture to guess that the classic would eventually be discontinued, as it clearly does not (and can not) compete in today's low-end market. Then again, if you made the ULE standard on the classic... As for the eye's position, the ULE body comes with one detent; the other side of the body is free for drilling.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The standard Mag will be almost completely obselete in 6-12 months I say. All these great improvements will become standard once initial demands are met and enough are produced to build Mags from scratch using these parts instead of the old ones. Besides the rail, my Mag has gone from a stock Minimag to the ULE/Intelliframed monster it is now. The lighter trigger will be the final amendment to the stereotype people have of Mags and if the new lighter pull allows for an affordable LED grip (and I said IF so don't flame me for raising hopes or crap like that) then the Mag will have been completely reborn. First time in a while I saw ForceOfNature.com and Paintball.com both have articles about a new AGD product, specifically the ULE bodies, although these articles were clearly written and provided by the same person, most likely who works for AGD.

The older Mags will be around, but more for nostalgia or those people who can't afford the new stuff. It'll be a great opportunity for the people who want a high quality gun at a great price, because the old bodies and such are selling cheap right now.

Way to go AGD, looking good and this trigger pull issue is the last big step you need to revolutionize the mechanical paintball gun market. Kingman, Tippman, and WGP have got to be getting nervous about how good this thing might be.

[Dayspring]

I agree with that thinking. HOWEVER, Tom has to consider the huge amount of people already out there. When Eclipse came out with the Eblade, they made it so EVERY cocker (for the most part) can take advantage of it. Tom has been REALLY good about making all his new products backward compatible. Doing something like this is great for the new owners. but it leaves the old owners in a lurch. It would require them to buy a new body as well as the grip. That doesn't sound quite fair to those people who have a classic they've been upgrading as they went along.

This is the same problem that is happening with the classic RT owners. Tom made a design change for that model. It's radically different enough that none of the current AGD upgrades with the exception of the level 10 and a specially modified I-Frame work.

It needs to work on EVERY mag.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
on the assumption that the stainless steel bodies will eventually be phased out, allowing for the ULE bodies to be standard on all mags. In fact, I would venture to guess that the classic would eventually be discontinued, as it clearly does not (and can not) compete in today's low-end market.

im not sure i'd count out the classic valve yet....
it might come standard with ule body, the new trigger and maybe even level 10 in the future but i don't see them just dropping it completely anytime soon
and i think with lx and the new trigger plus the stylish ule body(or even an xmag style body eventually)
i can see it being an excellent lower end gun

[ZyperioN]

and all this talk about on/off pin lengths has to do with the new magnetic trigger frame how?:rolleyes:

[Jerhew]

are we the topic nazi?
it does have to do with the topic of trigger jobs:rolleyes:
and btw who said the new trigger has anything to do with magnets?

[Hucklbry]

Tom,
I think we all would like a lighter trigger no matter how much lighter it is. 1/3 the pull, wow. Good job. Keep us informed of when, and how much. Thanks

[ZyperioN]

well jerhew why dont u read tom's original post?


It is approxamately equivalent to three magnets in the emag trigger.

And no Jerhew this thread has nothing to do with "trigger jobs" because the topic is a new frame from AGD, not a new "trigger job"

[afrankart]

Who said it was a new trigger frame? I gathered that it was a parts kit for intelliframes.

[ZyperioN]

i, along with many others thought it was a whole new frame. maybe tom could shed some light on the issue?

[Jerhew]

well you're wrong
what it amounts to is a trigger job
call it what you will
but the idea of a softer trigger is generally attributed to the phrase "trigger job"
and that led to dicussions of other ways to do it
cdawg i believe it was who posted a mpg of him walking a mech trigger...
that let to questions of how...etc...
now if you honestly believe that we need to start a new thread to talk about it...
you're just out of line pal

why don't YOU read Tom's posts again:
"The parts are small and fragile so we have to figure out a way to make it idiot proof. There is a 99% chance this mod will retrofit to every gun we ever made. Its a two minute parts swap."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is approxamately equivalent to three magnets in the emag trigger.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
um do you know what the word equivalent means?
it doenst mean that it uses magnets...it just feels about the same as 3 magnets

[reefer madness]

all i care is that it has the full reactive trigger effect.

[Fastkid]

.

[MantisMag]

no more sticky? :confused:

[Cryer]

When (if) Tom has another update or when he releases the trigger job, he'll more than likely make a new thread as opposed to replying to this one.

[Jerhew]

no more sticky.
i guess Tom is tired of hearing it :P
well maybe we'll here some good news soon...
like a beta test:D

[DiRTyBuNNy]

So..how many of these do i have to buy before we can get this deal done..

[lil_wick]

this would be nice, it would shut all my friends up who say my gun is too slow and the trigger is too stiff.(even though i almost got my 68 pf mag to shoot as fast as my friend's angel):p Though as soon as it comes out and i hear good feedback(which i'm pretty sure i will)i'm out and about to get that trigger, plus lightening the trigger was the next thing i wanted to do to my mag:)

[lil_wick]

o yea one other thing that came up to me is that w/ this faster trigger would it be too fast for the classic valve, haha one more reason for me so i can get an x-valve. ;)

[GT]

if you guys look in the Store under the IAO tech class, Tom will be going over the SLMT install.

jb

[Jerhew]

really...
hrm
another reason to make me want to go to the IAO
think maybe they will be debuting them there...?

[Blurry]

Jw if it will work on z's or not i love mine too much to give her up just for a trigger job drop me one any pics anyone?>???

[Jerhew]

AGD SAID
"The prototype is not ready for production. The parts are small and fragile so we have to figure out a way to make it idiot proof. There is a 99% chance this mod will retrofit to every gun we ever made. Its a two minute parts swap."

i'll go ahead and assume he also means the z-grip

from what i gather the mod has something to do with the on/off switch and possibly the sear, if that is true, it shouldnt matter what kind of trigger frame you have
but that is all hearsay as of right now and most likely subject to change

besides this project is on the back burner

:(

[mh53eplt]

From my sig i have several mags. I sold my Freeflow Millenium Racegrip cocker to my 14 y/o son after I bought a RT Classic for a backup marker. Turned out I liked it better than the cocker. Hopefully the trigger mod will be backward compatable for my RT. If not I'll just have to sell the RT and trade my 4 star minimag valve for an x-valve.

[Wc Keep]

i shot the super light this weekend:D

[lil_wick]

how was it? tell me everything!

[Wc Keep]

it was walkable.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
i shot the super light this weekend:D

How did you get your hands on it is the more important questions.

Ogre

[AGD]

Guys I am closing this thread, please post in the sticky trigger at the top.

Thanks

AGD