Can someone explain the cocker hammer theory?

[paintball8869]

Well i've been having a hard time lately figuring this out on my cocker. I know how the gun works, i've been timing it myself for years. And i can do a complete disassemble reassemble, etc. I have a pretty good grasp of the cocker.


Now here comes my problem. I hear all these people saying a HEAVIER hammer will allow you to pinch balls by lowering cocking pressure. WTF are they talking about? Don't you need to pull that hammer back with the ram to cock the gun? I mean, the ram pushes the pump rod, pushing the backblock and bolt back (loading a ball and in turn cocking the gun- which pulls the hammer back via the cocking rod).
So it'll take MORE pressure to pull back a heavier hammer, right? I mean that just makes sense to me. And in turn, the same pressure is used to push the bolt/backblock forward (which is where it would possibly pinch). With that higher pressure, it will chop on a misfeed.


So my theory is to use a lighter hammer, which will lower cocking pressure and cause more pinching.


Let me know if there are any flaws in my thinking. I figure you guys will give me an honest opinion, without all the hype of the cocker owners (and their guns that shoot farther :) ).

[manike]

The pressure pushing the hammer back has to overcome the main spring. The force to move the hammer isn't as significant as the force to compress the main spring.

The weight of the hammer and force in the spring trade of against each other when it comes to having enough energy to smack open the valve properly.

Light hammer + heavy spring = heavy hammer + light spring.

So by using a heavy hammer you can use a light main spring and still get the valve to open properly.

By using a lighter spring you use less pressure and force to cock the hammer back.

Lighter pressure and force in the ram cocking the gun's hammer = lighter pressure and force with the bolt coming forwards so it's less likely to chop paint and more likely to just pinch the balls.

[paintball8869]

I was also thinkin about changing out the valve spring to a lighter one if i had gone with a lighter hammer. Becuase just putting in a lighter hammer wouldn't open up the valve long enough (or maybe not at all).

So basically: light hammer + light/medium main spring + light valve spring= low pressure cocking.

[manike]

Light hammers don't 'help' to get low pressure cocking. Heavier hammers do as they need less spring force behind them to open the valve.

The hammer weight makes only a little difference to the force required to cock the gun. In reality all a heavier hammer means when it comes to cocking the gun is a slightly lower acceleleration of the back block opening. F=MA.

There will also be a slight increase in friction but I expect that to be negligible.

The heavier hammer when being returned by the spring will have a greater momentum and hit the valve open harder thus still maintaining velocity.

[paintball8869]

i understand that with the stock setup a heavy hammer will use less force to open the valve.

But if you put a lighter valve spring in, you wouldn't need as much force to open it. Then you can pop a lighter hammer in as well, using less force, open the valve (that now doesn't need as much force to open).

[manike]

To a certain extent yes you can put in a lighter valve spring and get greater velocity allowing you to use a slightly lighter hammer. But it doesn't give the best results.

Varying valve springs doesn't tend to have a huge difference in my experience. Ultimately the valve isn't just being closed by the valve spring, but also by the air pressure behind it. The air pressure behind it is a huge factor and you need to 'balance' all of these factors out. Decreasing the valve spring by 25% doesn't mean the force required to open the valve goes down by 25% due to the air pressure behind it.

People have been doing this for years... that's why you can buy heavier hammers but not lighter hammers... :)

You also want to tune the springs and hammer with the regs to get the best result.

Why would you want to use a lighter hammer? It has negligible effect on the cocking force of the gun or pressure required to cock the gun or the speed of cocking the gun... You aren't going to get any significant advantages from a lighter hammer. But you will get disadvantages...

You will get advantages from a heavier hammer.

[paintball8869]

Thanks manike. I forgot about the pressure. I'm not quite sure if i'm gonna change anything on my gxe as of yet, just thinkin about it. Went through a test run this weekend and it worked great. Shot about 2 cases through it, no chops (lots of barrel breaks though, gotta remember to shoot a 695 barrel with 32* competition :) ). Funny thing was i was down to a revvy with xboard and outshot it all day, gotta love the eyes:) Even when i turned the eyes off (sunlight problem, gotta fix that) the gun pinched all the time. It was great.


Just figured i might experiment with a lighter hammer, becuase at the time it seemed to make sense.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I have a few ideas on the subject...

Manike covered the question quite well, but in regards to efficiency I have often found the lighter the enter force hitting the valve, ie hammer + spring. With high flow components will yield a greater efficiency to a point, and that point is when in fact the transfer hole between the botl and valve is to small to allow any more air. The basic premise of efficiency in a poppet valve system is moving the most air in the shortest amount of time. I actually like lighter hammers, ie the stock ;) I actually prefer the belsales hammer though I am not sure if it is lighter than stock but it just exudes quality.

Az
www.air-powered.com, moderator

[manike]

Yep having a lighter hammer hitting the valve can (but not always as it again depends on springs) result in a shorter shorter valve dwell time, which if tuned properly to get the right velocity gives you a more efficient gun. :)

I've tried a lot of hammers... and have gone back to a stock weight one with the delrin screws for stopping the lug and cocking rod moving... not sure but it might be a Belsales hammer that I am using in my Spearhead right now http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I have a quick gun which is efficient and shoots beautifully. I don't know, and nor do I care about, what pressure it is shooting at :)

[Lopy-slopy]

Heres my cocker hammer therory.
Buy a cocker, get fed up with the 80 freeken moving and breaking parts, get a hammer, use hammer to smash said cocker, buy a mag, end of story.

[paintball8869]

the only mag i'd buy is an emag, but i've shot them and i hate the feel of the trigger, no matter how it's adjusted. My GXE is shooting great, no problems (never had a problem with my cockers). No reason to go out and buy an xmag. That's the only one i'd buy, and i dont personally think they're worth the price. Plenty of guns perform the same as they do and are in the $1000 price range, not the $1400 range. Oh ya, and i don't want to wait 7 months to get the gun.

I'm not tryin to knock the xmag, becuase it's an awesome gun, just not my style.

[Catch22]

http://www.endlesspb.com/tech/efficiency.html

yes it tells all.

[punkncat]

Originally posted by paintball8869
Thanks manike. I forgot about the pressure. I'm not quite sure if i'm gonna change anything on my gxe as of yet, just thinkin about it. Went through a test run this weekend and it worked great. Shot about 2 cases through it, no chops (lots of barrel breaks though, gotta remember to shoot a 695 barrel with 32* competition :) ). Funny thing was i was down to a revvy with xboard and outshot it all day, gotta love the eyes:) Even when i turned the eyes off (sunlight problem, gotta fix that) the gun pinched all the time. It was great.


Just figured i might experiment with a lighter hammer, becuase at the time it seemed to make sense.

Do you have a GXE or a GX3 ? I really can't see outshooting a revi with a 3....just curious.

Something I have found very helpful with the freak is to oversize to the point that the balls will literally roll through the barrel.Its kind of a pain because the balls will roll out if you point it down , but you NEVER break a ball in the barrel.

[paintball8869]

i have a gxe (well had). I sold it today and am getting another intimidator. I also had a gx3 and was able to get it to pop with the revvy (basically outshooting becuase the revvy was inconsistent above 9 bps).