I just got shot in the mouth by my on/off valve

[j.t.]

Ok, I was taking apart my minimag when I found I couldnt get my valve out. So me being the idiot that I am decided to remove my intelliframe/rail to check things out.

Now, I knew ahead of time this would be unsafe ACCEPT for the fact that I had degased the marker completly. I run a screw in tank, and it, along with the macro line connecting to the valve was removed. (i also pulled the trigger back, opening the valve just incase there still might be air in it)

This usually works for me and has been since I got level 10 (during the beta testibg stage). Possibly could have been my recent addition of my intelliframe but i dont understand how this could effect it.

Anyways, when I tried to remove the valve the on/off valve shot out (not just the pin) leaving me with a pretty good fat lip. It deflected off of me into my room somewhere and I havent been able to find it yet.

Im gonna go search for my on/off now so if anyone has any explanation to why this happened and tips on how to avoid this again it would be helpfull. Thanks

:confused: :o

[e mag]

i always point the bottom of the valve away from me.

[Brak]

you got off pretty lucky. a while ago someone posted the same thing as you, but the pin shot THOUGH their lip. just be careful next time

[j.t.]

I understand that I was fortunate I did not get injured, but how do I release of the gas in the valve? :confused:

[Ghengis]

So I guess we'll keep our Mask on while tuning too... :P

[WickeDKlowN]

The exact same thing happened to me the other night. Except it hit me in the forehead(bout an inch from my eye). I looked all over for it, then the metal parts(pin, top, and bottom) were stuck in my hat. Never did find the o-rings...

It was a classic valve, and the stock frame if it matters. Hasn't happened since tho.

I knew something sounded funny when air was leaking from somewhere after the tank was completly off the gun, and the hoses were disconnected...

[Dave]

I would definitely like a response to this issue as well. And for anyone reading, no, we are not talking about the residual pressure left in the air hoses...this is entirely in the valve, with the gun degassed, the quick-disconnet undone, and the trigger pulled. Didn't have this problem before level 10. Also, it is sporadic...I throw my valve into different setups, and I get different results of residual pressure...sometimes none at all.

The reason why I am interested in this is because I too, had an issue with the on/off flying off at me(wasn't due to the level 10 though, whole other story) and freaked my out when it flew by my face, 2 inches from my eye. If this is a more common problem, AGD DEFINITELY needs to include a warning of some sort about this in the Level 10 instructions. Yes, it may sound stupid, but it happens, and happens a lot, and could be a potential case for a lawsuit (not joking)

-Dave

[omni]

IT's happend to me before as well, with the Macro Taken out so there was no way my vavle could have been getting any air.

It shot up in the air and landed on the table, I though I had lost the two o-rings, but I later found them on the pool table at the field by randomly putting my hand on them while talking to some players.

[j.t.]

Im glad im not the only one who this has happened to. I dont feel quite as dumb now. :)

Only way of releasing the gas though would be to pull the bolt forward somehow. Im pretty sure there was a thread about this a long time ago, I couldnt find it when I searched though.

[xadamx]

its happened to me too. what i do is just take my valve out very slowly and usually it will shoot into the rail and then its fine, you just have to push it back in. so take your valve off slowly and you shouldnt have to worry about getting shot or loosing orings

[Sinistarr]

I have never had anything like that happen to me yet. I never try to dissassemble the marker while it is gassed up, I remove the airline at the quick-disconnect, and I never take the valve out in any other position than with the marker upright, not upside down or facing me.

I have never heard of a mag holding pressure internally untill just recently (last 2-3 months). My LvL10 has been installed for more than 6 months, and was disassembled at least 30-40 times in between with no instances of this happening.

G

[maglover52]

same thing happend to me it sucked. i found my on/off though:) good luck searching!

[Paintchucker]

Do you shoot the gun down? As I twist out the tank, I always shoot the gun to release gas/pressure. This comes from back in the old CO2 days. CO2 tanks sometimes have more pressure coming out of the tank than NitroTanks. If you shot the gun, it released the pressure until it built up in the gun again. When pressure was lowered, you could turn the tank a little, then shoot/turn, shoot/turn, until it finally got out all the way.

Anywho, long story short, I always do this when I degas the gun...

Not sure if that will help or not, it seems like too much of a coincidence for you to all have this with levelX.

[Gadget]

I've not had the on/off try and kill me, but since getting an x-valve I have noticed that even after I degass the valve using my pro-connect, about 10 seconds later the valve dumps a second load of gas. Weird.

[bornl33t]

cracks me up everytime I see these threads pop up... I know I'm naughty. IN all honesty this would pry be reason enough to sue AGD. NOT that I'm insinuating you should, but AGD REALLY needs to work on this... it's a little un-nerving to hear about the guns shooting the owners... about as bad as when one of those sipder clones were shooting bolts out he barrel...

[yeahthatsme]

do a search for proper degassing methods, there was a thread a while back on how to do this correctly....

[Will Wood]

*Points*

Haha

.. Yea I've done it do.. A while ago, I put the on/off in upside down, so I gased it up to get it out lol. But I was smart and put it in my pillow when I did it.

[cphilip]

...its well known that you must have a device to degass the marker BEFORE removing the valve and that macroline cannot be released at preassures over about 100 psi to do this. You need to put at least a quick connect on there. And then it will not and CANNOT retain pressure. YOU MUST REMOVE ALL PRESSURE. Its a must. Its a part of the service line to the valve that you need to construct to do this.

Do not remove the valve with any pressure in the line. None. It will be potentialy hazardous and even damage the on off pin.

If you do not have the proper set up there is another way to degass the line pressure. Take a short piece of dowel rod and depress the bolt to the side and it will leak it out. Takes a little effort but it will work.

[Miscue]

I had to pull it out of the wall once... took me a while to realize where that bugger went. :D

The problem is when... people don't use a QD to degas. If you have just macroline... like many people do... it's really tough to degas completely.

Scared the hell out of me first time it happened... I had no idea that would happen. I'd like to see some solution to this, as it is a hazard.

Don't stare directly into the on/off assembly! ;)

[xen_100]

this is a known issue. with LX there is residual pressure posible even after you degas the gun. that is why Tom said to pull and hold the trigger as you remove the valve from the gun. that way any left over pressure will be vented when the bolt moves slightly forward, safely.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I also believe that the issue of shooting down your gun with the level 10 installed was addressed by saying that the new bolt springs were stronger and would hold the bolt tight enough that some residual pressure would remain.

[Hexis]

Help me wrap my brain around this. If the on/off is open (sear in the resting state) how is it possible to have residual pressure if the valve's input is open to normal atmospheric pressure? Shouldn't the dump chamber degas through the on/off?

[xen_100]

degas to where? if your regulator is doing its job, then the pressure in the dump chamber will be enough to push the reg piston back and keep the cup seal up against the reg seat. in an ideal situation, it will keep the pressure in the dump chamber and the airway to the reg. since the LX will stop shooting at about 400 PSI, this is why you still have some pressure in the gun.

[Troy]

you can degas macro line using a pliers on the fiting to blead the left over gas in the line.

[j.t.]

Ok, first of all, I understand that removing the valve without totaly degasing the marker is very dangerous, and that all of the air needs to bled from the air lines before removing it. For those of you who said that we need to do this, please re-read my original post. This is not the problem we are having. I run a screw in/preset tank so bleeding on the pressure in the lines is not an issue because this is done when the tank is removed.

I have tried the methods said above but none of these have been working for me. I have tried releasing the air from the valve by moving the bolt around and could not yield any results from this.

The other way mentioned was to shoot the marker or hold the trigger back while removing the tank. The reason this does not work is because my level 10 mag with classic valve (if having a classic valve makes a difference) will fire until I run low enough on pressure that I can pull the trigger repeatedly without dumping the remaining air in the chamber. THIS is when the problem occurs.

It seems the only way to avoid this would be to simply not run the tank pressure down low enough for this to happen.:confused:

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Troy
you can degas macro line using a pliers on the fiting to blead the left over gas in the line.

thanks for playing along......that is not what we are talking about.

and that is a really dumb way to degas any gun. it ruins the hose and the fitting, why not just get a slide check, they are $10!

[BTAutoMag]

i always pull it out slowly so when it does de gas it will hit the metal and not me

[xen_100]

Originally posted by j.t.
..........The other way mentioned was to shoot the marker or hold the trigger back while removing the tank. The reason this does not work is because my level 10 mag with classic valve (if having a classic valve makes a difference) will fire until I run low enough on pressure that I can pull the trigger repeatedly without dumping the remaining air in the chamber. THIS is when the problem occurs.

It seems the only way to avoid this would be to simply not run the tank pressure down low enough for this to happen.:confused:

if you are referring to my suggestion, that is not quite what I meant, I think. you still have to degass the gun. slide check, proconnect, remove the tank, however you do it. the residual gas in the valve can be explelled by slowing removing the valve. (you have to hold the trigger to get the on/off pin to stay up)

[AGD]

Guys,

We are looking into this now. Please tell me if this was with a standard valve or a retro valve, there is a big difference.

Thanks

AGD

[BlackVCG]

The solution to all degasing problems.

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/DCP_0241.JPG

[xen_100]

I dont get it, how is that a solution? you cant just pull that QD off to degas, you will destroy the QD over time.

besides, it is not a line degas problem. the problem is that the valve holds in some amount of air after you degas.

[BajaBoy]

agd, it Always shot out in a classic valve.. but never in a retro for me:)

[Demobilized]

Originally posted by xen_100
I dont get it, how is that a solution? you cant just pull that QD off to degas, you will destroy the QD over time.


I've been doing it for about 3 years and it hasn't hurt anything yet, except my ears from the loud hiss it makes haha.

[Tunaman]

Over the course of 15 or so years, I have NEVER had an on/off assemply shoot out on me. Retro, classic...take your pick. I have serviced thousands of AGD valves, and my conclusion has come to the fact that some people are just not de-gassing properly. Get the right parts to degas the marker properly. And as to the post on using pliers on macro fittings to de-gas, that is the lamest way I have ever heard. It is also VERY unsafe. Dont do it!

[Dave]

I think it's great that there is some interest in finding a solution to this...

however, some still don't quite understand what we are talking about...

1. The tank on/off is unscrewed

2. The quick disconnect is disconnected

3. The trigger is pulled

4. All air is totally out of the ASA, air hose, etc.

The air is out of everywhere except the valve...something is holding the pressure in the valve. I've tried just about everything, pulling the trigger, moving the bolt around, etc. Nothing gets out the air pressure except slowly backing out the valve, in which the on/off is scraping against the inside of the body/rail due to the force of the air pushing it outwards. This is actually the reason why I haven't bought a ULE body...the face of the on/off assembly (brass) is scratched and gouged due to this problem...since the body is s/s, nothing happens to it. I wouldn't doubt the inside of a ULE would get all torn up from backing out the valve with an on/off scraping against it.

Remember-if you took the tank off the gun, the air hoses off the gun, everything off, except leave the valve in the gun, that is where the pressure is built up. Just wanted to make sure ya'll got the picture;)

-Dave

[Dave]

My problem has been in an Emag valve...the ONLY valve I have with LX.

-Dave

[j.t.]

AGD- As I stated it was with a CLASSIC valve!

It happens very sporadicly and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELEASING THE AIR IN THE AIR LINES! WE ARE DOING THIS PROPERLY!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Mag Master 04]

i dunno bout any one else but that title is the funniest thing i have ever read...i seriously spit out my pop and pizza all over my monitor and key board...i couldnt stop laughing, OH and sorry bout the problem, cant say it has ever happened to me. i also unscrew my tank and shoot it down at the same time...

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Thanks Tom!!!

[BlackVCG]

Are you sure you guys aren't using quick disconnect fittings with check valves in them that are used for fill nipples on HPA systems?

That's about the only conceivable way you can get air to stay in the valve. If you are unscrewing/turning off your tank, shooting out the last couple shots of air, THEN pulling the trigger to push the on/off pin back in, you should not have any residual pressure in the valve.

There is something wrong with your valve and it needs to be looked at by someone that knows what they're doing.

I, like Tunaman, have yet to have an on/off pop out of a valve in my countless years of working on hundreds of Mags.

As for the person that said the QD would wear out in my setup, you're wrong. That's what a quick disconnect is for. Turn off the tank, shoot out the remaining, shots, pop the QD and bleed the air. It's that simple and is fail proof.

[Skoad]

i have a classic valve and never had that problem. i just turn off my on/off, shoot until it stops cycling, unscrew the tank.


nothing has ever shot out of my valve ;)

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I not only have a QD I have a bleed valve. I have not had the problem that has been described happen to me I just saw somewhere that pressure can remain in the chamber with the LX setup.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Ooops, I meant slide check

[Dave]

BlackVCG,

The issue of having a check valve in the fill nipple is the original problem I had the the on/off shooting out at me. When I was getting my mag setup in the pro shop, the gut handed me a fill nipple with the check valve in it (at the time I had no idea what it was or what it did) and I asked him if it would cause any problems, and he say NO:mad:

That issue was not related to LX, and since the check valve was removed, I've had no problems with that valve.

However, with my other valve, the one with LX, this problem also occurs. No, it doesn't have a check valve in it, I know exactly what your talking about. I STRONGLY believe this issue is connected directly w/ LX.

-Dave

[epterry]

I’ve had that happen to me but it hit me below the eyebrow but not in the eye. Every thing went white for a moment. Then the search for all of the parts started.:cool:

[GT]

Originally posted by j.t.
Now, I knew ahead of time this would be unsafe ACCEPT for the fact that I had degased the marker completly.




What blows me away are the amount of morons that can not read on this board, take a look at some of thier responses combined with thier post count. It begs the question, "How did you get this far?"

This topic has nothing to do with
1. Proper fittings
2. Degass procedure
3. Retro, RT, Xvavles
4. The use of nitro or co2.

IF some of you actually READ BEFORE YOU POST you will see that the problem is in the clasic valve holding some amount of air AFTER it has been degassed. Also stating that it hasnt happend to you really doesnt help this post along.:rolleyes:

JT,
Just my guess but could your spring be to stiff and when you tried to release the small amount of air in the valve the bolt (edit: with the stiff spring) wouldnt allow the last bit of air out?

[Hexis]

Originally posted by gtrsi

This topic has nothing to do with
1. Proper fittings
2. Degass procedure
3. Retro, RT, Xvavles
4. The use of nitro or co2.


If you know this to be true, you must also know what causes the problem. No one has figured out exactly what the problem is yet, that's why people are asking questions. So please quit being a troll and let the troubleshooting proceed.

In my many years of owning a mag I have never seen this on my or any of my friends markers. That covers Classic Valves, ReTro Valves, both types with and without Level 10 installed. We degas fully and have always the valve be free of pressure.

[GT]

Originally posted by Hexis
If you know this to be true, you must also know what causes the problem. No one has figured out exactly what the problem is yet, that's why people are asking questions. So please quit being a troll and let the troubleshooting proceed.


Get real, offer a possible solution or dont post, or did you miss my possible explanition?(Thus adding some intellgance to the post?) Also most of theses posts are either about how to degass a gun, stating that it has happened to them, or stating that in thier 30 years of mag use it has never happened, all of which a. dont matter, b. were covered in the first post. I guess we really do have a reading problem!

Stop wasting bandwidth about Troll comments, either PM me or hit me on AIM tonight if you like. again just for the record I did add my comments on the tailend of my post, reread it again

jb

[joker4hire]

If you think about how the AIR valve works, it can contain air inbetween the on/off pin and the bolt.

IF the amount of pressure isn't enough to move the bolt forward AND you some how keep the on/off pin in the closed position (like keeping your finger squeezed on the trigger).

That would keep the AIR valve pressurized... and if you somehow remove from the body rail, that will send the pin flying out of the valve.

With LX, you can have even higher pressure inbetween the pin and the bolt, because LX springs push the bolt back harder than the stock springs.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Thank you joker4hire that is what I have been trying to tell them

[cphilip]

gtrsi, You best calm yourself down. I read everything you said and I again going to repeat what has been said AGAIN!

There would be no air in there if you completely degassed the marker. And I have taken them out countless times and NEVER was their retained air in mine. Black points out you may have a wrong fitting and we know for a fact your not degassing it. I never had one retain pressure when I released the line. NEVER. But most of mine are properly set up too.

[hitech]

A couple of things to try.

1. When you unscrew the tank (i.e. degas the marker) do NOT hold the trigger down.

2. If the reg. piston were to stick it could hold the regulator closed and retain pressure. Take out the velocity adjustment nut, spring pack and regulator piston. Make sure everything looks okay. Be sure to look inside the regulator 'body" and make sure it's clean and free of burs. Oil the regulator piston oring, grease the spring pack and reassemble.

Good luck.

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
gtrsi, You best calm yourself down. I read everything you said and I again going to repeat what has been said AGAIN!

There would be no air in there if you completely degassed the marker. And I have taken them out countless times and NEVER was their retained air in mine. Black points out you may have a wrong fitting and we know for a fact your not degassing it. I never had one retain pressure when I released the line. NEVER. But most of mine are properly set up too.

I think I can post what I like Cphilp, as long as the subject is within the user agreement, my posts have not been negative in the least infact, the MOD is reasponsible for keeping the thread on subject and not wondering off on tangets, as my first thread has been to clarify the problem. IF you dont like what I post or find it in error, fine, but saying that I need to calm down is kinda rediclous. Also being the MOD doesnt always mean you are right. Note there maybe other factors/varbials associated with this problem aside from degass procedure, so please lets keep an open mind here.Just beacuse YOU have worked on 'countless' markers for 'years' does not invalidate the experince of this person or any other on THIS board.

I HAVE YET TO SEE, how a mag setup with a screw in tank, can retain any pressure AT ALL!!!! Meaning that I cannot for any reason see why an AIR valve would retain any preasure after the tank has been removed unless the bolt spring doesn't allow the bolt to move in order to degass. If air gets into the valve I am sure it can return the same way it came unless there is some kind of one-way valve that was installed by the user, via thier airline. Also note other users whom have had this 'minor' issue were using a stock setup w/o lvl X.

Side Note: I have never had this problem either, however this is an intresting topic to me and I will continue to moniter it. Should you have any problems with me contact me via pm, aim@ Turb0minnow, or email GTRsi2001@hotmail.com

[GT]

Originally posted by hitech
If the reg. piston were to stick it could hold the regulator closed and retain pressure. Take out the velocity adjustment nut, spring pack and regulator piston. Make sure everything looks okay. Be sure to look inside the regulator 'body" and make sure it's clean and free of burs. Oil the regulator piston oring, grease the spring pack and reassemble.


Good point:D

jb

[Dave]

Here is what I'll do...next time I get the chance, which will be soon, I'll take my mag up to Pev's in fairfax and get the low down from Rob on it...

I know this problem may sound wierd or non common, considering there are those that have serviced hundreds of valves, but this is a valid problem, and again, like I said, like so many have said before...

This is not about turning off the tank, or taking off fittings and what not, the air is soley left in the valve.

-Dave

[cphilip]

gtrsi, I am reffering to your calling people trolls and insisting people were too dumb to read. That is not on subject and offesive and not helpfull to your own interests. That should be obvious to you that it was unnessicary and what I am refering too. And that indeed is my job to control as even YOU point out.

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
gtrsi, I am reffering to your calling people trolls and insisting people were too dumb to read. That is not on subject and offesive and not helpfull to your own interests. That should be obvious to you that it was unnessicary and what I am refering too. And that indeed is my job to control as even YOU point out.

Cphillp,
If you want to dicuss this issue further use a PM. BTW as you incorrectly pointed out by not reading I DID NOT CALL anyone a troll. reread Hexis post. All I did was simply state that almost all of page one and page 2 delt with the inability for poster's reading skills, to now include your own lack of reading skills. Again I just pointed out to folks what the topic was about, an on/off issue, and none of the subsquent topics.

Sure my methods were a little harsh, but have you noticed the decrease in off-topic posts in this thread? IF anyone was offended becuase they were called out in a crude manor I am sorry. But then again I expect to hear from you sense incorrectly associating my post with Hexis

jb

[GT]

hmmm...

[Digits]

So you guys are saying that when you unscrew the field strip screw everything is flying out at you?

lol, if this is the case i'll be facing the gun towards the ground or something when I do this from now on.

[GT]

Originally posted by Digits
So you guys are saying that when you unscrew the field strip screw everything is flying out at you?

lol, if this is the case i'll be facing the gun towards the ground or something when I do this from now on.

It shouldnt since this is a rare problem. if you pull out the field strip screw and the valve still wont come out, that maybe a sign that the valve is still charged and the on/off pin is down.

jb

[Eric_AGD]

Since this has now turned to name calling, I am going to try and shift back to the topic. If the on off is shooting out with the external air supply removed, there is still air in the firing chamber. This is probably caused by the way the marker is degassed. If you pull the trigger while degassing the marker, the chamber is isolated from the outside world and the on off pin will end up with equal forces pushing up and down, therefore it will not move and gas is trapped in the chamber. For guys/girls with screw in tanks, try to unscrew the tank without shooting the gun down. If it is to difficult to unscrew, take only 1 or 2 shots, release the trigger and then unscrew.

I am working on this here, but it is always easier to fix a problem if you have a gun with the problem. If you could try this, and let me know what happens, it would help me narrow down the problem.

Thanks,
Eric

[Digits]

^^

hmmm, ok..

Thanks.. I'll just remember to point the gun away from me from now on ;)..

[GT]

Originally posted by Eric_AGD
Since this has now turned to name calling

ok?

I am still kinda confused how the valve could contain any AIR? Lets say you hold the trigger pull that tank off. at some point you release the trigger, wouldnt any air remaining flow back towards your ASA adapter?

jb

[hitech]

On a classic valve it should. On a ReTro based valve the on/off pin would/could be pressurized from the underside of the top part only and would "stick" in the "off" position.

[Eric_AGD]

On a classic valve the on off pin has the same sealing diameter on both the top and bottom, compared to an RT style that has a bigger diameter on the top than the bottom. When you pull the trigger on a classic valve, then remove the outside air source, the on off pin will have equal forces (caused by the psi remaining in the chamber) pushing in both directions, therefor it is neutral and will not move back down to open the valve. This may be a little unclear if you are not really familar with how the valve works. I will try to post a picture to clarify.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Eric_AGD
On a classic valve the on off pin has the same sealing diameter on both the top and bottom...When you pull the trigger on a classic valve, then remove the outside air source, the on off pin will have equal forces (caused by the psi remaining in the chamber) pushing in both directions...

Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.

[j.t.]

So that means that it should be impossible for it to shoot out despite the pressure remaining in the chamber because the force holding the pin in remains equal?

[Eric_AGD]

j.t.

If you look at the picture above, you will notice that the on off bottom only has 1 oring, and that is towards the bottom of the valve. As long as there is pressure in the chamber, the on off bottom is being forced down (or out of the valve body). The on off bottom is not attached to the on off pin.