The AGD waiting game...

[MinimagRockin']

Recently I've noticed alot of people concerned with the fact that AGD is always out of the new good stuff, and why don't they make more, etc. I haven't seen anyone from AGD attempt to answer this. I would really like to know if there is a good reason why. It seems to me that the time is right for a company expansion so that manufacturing can be increased. I think I speak for alot of AO when I say what's the deal AGD?

[Lone Wolf2]

Too much demand not enough supply i guess

[Lopy-slopy]

They do it because if peolpe are waiting to buy something for like 2 months and then they finaly release a "small amount" of them they are gauranteed to sell out of them. Thus elimenating excess unsold stock. This works great for them but it's a pain in the #$% for us. There are so many loyal customers. Anything they release will sell like mad so they may as well make enough for everyone.

[ChucktheMAGician]

I think they are just telling us to much to quick! Preselling and getting the word out is great but everyone is jumping all over the new items before they get a good supply built up. I like the fact that Tom uses AO to get ideas on how to design things and make them better, y-grip for example. What I don't like is people not being patient enough to wait til things are done right. If I were Tom I would stop telling about things I'm planning and working on until they are about done so I wouldn't have to read about the complaints! I'm sure they are getting things ready as fast as they can, we all just need to be patient and stop whining, myself included, when things don't come out when, or as fast as promised. I'm sure it's more complex to run AGD than most of us realize. And if you're reading this Tom, please hurry w/ the y-frame!;) :rolleyes: :D

[Blennidae]

I'd be curious to know how much of the newly released items get sold to non-AO members. We are all like piranhas waiting for a capybara to fall into the river (thank you Marlin Perkins;)).

With the exception of whatever might make it to trade shows/big tournys, I think we snap up a lot of it.

Please excuse the derailment...

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by Blennidae
We are all like piranhas waiting for a capybara to fall into the river (thank you Marlin Perkins;)).

Good analogy!:D :p

[MinimagRockin']

Lopy-slopy: I don't buy that theory, AGD knows that hundereds of people are waiting for some of these products, such as the xmag. They would make way more money if they could keep up with demand.

chuck: That is slightly true but this was happening before AGD started really telling us about projects way ahead of time. Our patience or impatience as the case may be is not what I'm really addressing here. If AGD wants to make us wait 5 years for an xmag then oh well we wait. What I'm wondering is why would they want to? They know alot of people want to buy these things. They can't even keep up with AO's demands much less distributing them out to pball stores. The question I'm asking is why the hell don't they hire more people, expand their manufactuing facilities, MAKE MORE MONEY? I know that you can't just snap your fingers and bam you have 20 new employees and a brand new warehouse but the initiative is in front of their faces...

[fire1811]

maybe AGD is worried more about true quality and craftsmanship then making money hand over fist.

as tom stated himself if you dont want to wait then please
buy another gun.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by MinimagRockin'
They would make way more money if they could keep up with demand.

they also stand to lose way more money if they dont go off really well. if you have 1000 premade xmags ready to sell and they dont sell well...youre screwed. if you have 10 ready to sell and allow a preorder list...then you're protecting yourself against losses

[MinimagRockin']

FIRE: That's a good point and if that's the case then it's very respectable, but I don't see why they can't keep high craftsmanship standards and expand at the same time. Many big companies have exceptional quality and manage to meet demands, WDP comes to mind...

Also, AGD is a business afterall and the company would never have been started unless they thought they could grow and make money.

KEV: AGD knows for a fact that demand is far outweighing supply on the xmags (among other products) therefore they know for a fact that increasing supply will work.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by fire1811
maybe AGD is worried more about true quality and craftsmanship then making money hand over fist.

as tom stated himself if you dont want to wait then please
buy another gun. We don't want another damn gun! We want AGD products!

[fire1811]

well then you have to wait dont ya :p

one thing your all forgetting...
does AGD WANT to become a big company?

[Riot[Z-Grip]]

Originally posted by Blennidae
I'd be curious to know how much of the newly released items get sold to non-AO members. We are all like piranhas waiting for a capybara to fall into the river (thank you Marlin Perkins;)).

With the exception of whatever might make it to trade shows/big tournys, I think we snap up a lot of it.

Please excuse the derailment...

Ding, Ding, Ding!

I think we just assume that AGD is behind schedule because we learn about all these products early/often. We knew about Xmags for 6+ months before I ever saw one in a paintball mag. I had an original superbolt before I read about it off of AO. Last weekend I saw someone I was playing with explaining what Level 10 WAS..

I strongly believe that the "AGD is not meeting demand" mentality is strictly because of AO. Sit and think to yourself: Do you think your average non-AO mag user feels they're missing out on a ULE body right now? knows what one is?

/rant

-Riot

[MinimagRockin']

They may not want to become big (and I have no idea why they wouldn't) but they might think about expanding just a little bit to at least keep up with their loyal followers. Keeping up with the entire paintball world is one thing but when you can't even keep up with your website subscribers that's pretty bad.

[MinimagRockin']

Originally posted by IWannaRiot979


Do you think your average non-AO mag user feels they're missing out on a ULE body right now? knows what one is?

/rant

-Riot

Your right but what if you could open up an APG and there was a full page ad for ule bodies so you go down to your local pball shop and and they actually have them in stock. Imagine how many of these things AGD would be selling.

[Lopy-slopy]

Lopy-slopy: I don't buy that theory, AGD knows that hundereds of people are waiting for some of these products, such as the xmag. They would make way more money if they could keep up with demand.

They can be sure they will not loose money if they only sell small batches untill the market dries up. X-mags are a diffent story I think they just can't make enough of them. Next time they shouldn't hype them so much for 6 moths before there releesed. But I think Tom was trying to get things like they are now. Right now, every X-mag that is made is Gaurenteed to be sold, because there is like a 10000000000000 year waiting list. I truely think he likes running Airgun like this because he never has to worry about not selling something.

[adam shannon]

the big picture is much diffrent...at least from my experiences. i run a small business, i leak product samles and info...when i do the net is abuzz with people clamoring to buy one. but when it actually comes to buying only 1/10th of one percent of people that come and look buy anything. buzz iz buzz...buying is another story. if i made my decisions based on what people say and dont do i would be on the unemployment line.

that said AO is a little diffrent, people here do buy...and want it right now. tom shoots himself in the foot a bit by leaking new stuff waaay before its ready...but who can blame him. i would be really proud and eager to show off new cool stuff also.

AO is a great place for mag hags to get new info...and we know before the everyday joe mag about new stuff...and we assuredly buy most of it at first till the general public knows about it.

AGD could hire more staff and do huge production runs. but think about one thing...all this demand on AO doesnt translate to the general PB world. just because the demand is so big at AO...once we all have the new stuff we want the demand will drop back to normal for everybody else. sure the x-mag could make agd a household name...but if you were tom would you bet your business on it?

agd could hire 4 times the staff and lease bigger facilities...but what happens when ao is sated and there is no continual need for huge production...lay off all those folks you hired? go back to smaller offices? or go chapter 11? if you have ever run a business you know how sick it makes you feel to lay off people you considered family...and what about the commitment you made to them to give them a job to feed their families...playing with people like that isnt nice.

give it 6 months to a year...agd will be up to speed on production with the staff and facilities they have now, tom will have sold all the units he could make to satisfy the backorders, and stock levels will be back up. nobody had to be hired and fired, tom didnt risk his business on a gamble, and anybody will be able to pick up the phone and order an x-mag out of on hand stock.

[ddinwdc]

then they should institute a pre-order system with required deposits. This will provide them with a MINIMUM number to fulfill demand, and, with a deposit requirement, ensure that most of that inventory will sell. These preorders will also allow them to extrapolate a general demand number. Its tricky business, for sure, but I think AGD's conservative estimates come at the expense of customer satisfaction and interest. I think there is no question that--by playing as safe as they do--they are certainly losing business. They complained when the black ULE's sold out as the colored ones hung around, stating that AO had asked for colored ones and now we weren't buying. But honestly, what can they expect when the use something as skewed as an owners' forum to make their production decisions? Now whether AGD really wants to be a major player in this industry or not is another question; they maybe satisfied serving this niche market. But if they have any aspirations to really dominate (and they should, as this market will only grow--the demo's are insane!), then they need to put some serious thought into hiring professional marketing strategist.

[Russ]

AGD doesn't manufacture most, if not all of the components. they are sourced out to other manufacturers (machine shops) who build the parts...then they're sent out for anno (the parts that require it) THEN AGD assembled the guns.

AGD is at the mercy of their vendors...who have busy schedules themselves.

[dansim]

you buy them some more milling machines and they'll produce more guns/bodies, but until then shut yer hole and wait like the rest of ao, all this *****ing is frankly falling on deaf ears, you think tom looks on ao and say oh no i have someone whos not happy with a wait time i recieved from a company, id better go make him his gun personally, ...um no, hes more or less worried about teh feedback and perhaps some problems that maybe the company missed....deaf ears

[tmnothing]

Apparantly the AGD customers are starting to get impatient with the unavailability of what they want. It seems to me like those of us waiting to order parts for our gun are starting to get upset with the lack of effort that AGD is showing us with respect to increasing their manufacturing capabilities. I'm waiting for a black ULE and a black Intelliframe, and when they're finally back in stock I almost dont expect to get one because their gonna sell so fast. AGD has been known for being such a great company in terms of products and support, but they're really hurting themselves I think by not making what we want available.

[jaylock33]

waiting sucks, but you know what your waiting for is quality so you deal with it. better to wait for something good than to instantly have a piece of junk.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by jaylock33
better to wait for something good than to instantly have a piece of junk.
That's definately quote worthy!:)

[ddinwdc]

you are indeed an eloquent man. AGD ears may be deaf (although I expect not), but those belonging to the majority of us posting in this thread are not. Clearly, this is developing into an issue. As for the gentleman who claimed that we are waiting for quality, this is true; AGD manufactures quality products. However, they are not the ONLY company to do so in this industry. This is the common lament of for those playing the AGD waiting game--"at least its not junk". Well, most of what is produced in this industry isn't junk. That isn't really a valid point. The autococker is fine marker, the WGP line and a whole slue of others. And for those of you who love to tell us to "go somewhere else, AGD doesn't care", or "keep complaining and they won't make any more products" (I love the second one--what are we, children begging for an ice cream cone?), I promise you they WILL keep making products as long as we buy them and they WILL care when we stop. Then you won't have any AGD products either. Ah...got to love a guy who quotes himself.

[Dayspring]

The complaining is getting somewhat excessive really...

There are at least 3 different threads all dealing with this. And we can say and post all we want, but the fact of the matter is, the Xmags are being done about 35-40 a month. There will ALWAYS be a wait for them. That comes STRAIGHT from Tom himself. The Xmag is the flagship marker.

Honestly, all the complaining isn't going to get the guns out faster. Good things come to those who wait.

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by Dayspring
The complaining is getting somewhat excessive really...

There are at least 3 different threads all dealing with this. And we can say and post all we want, but the fact of the matter is, the Xmags are being done about 35-40 a month. There will ALWAYS be a wait for them. That comes STRAIGHT from Tom himself. The Xmag is the flagship marker.

Honestly, all the complaining isn't going to get the guns out faster. Good things come to those who wait.

This coming from the man who didnt have to wait for his Xmag :D

[Xyxyll]

My only guess is that AGD wants to stay as small of a company as possible, although I don't consider AGD a small company. I will say though that I am also a little confused with AGD on the business side.

[ddinwdc]

will, in fact, make things come faster. That is, unless AGD is exempt from the pressures of a free market. If this is so, then they have achieved something that no other business in the history of economics has achieved, placing Tom above Keynes in the hierarchy of economic theory! I suspect, however, that this is not the case. Any business is going to care what its customers think and do everything within reason (read, economically feasible) to accommodate the request. Complaining is good; complaining gets results. Without complaining, no LX.

[Dayspring]

AGD does what it can afford to do.

People want LOTS of things from them. They want new products, they want Xmags, they want AGD staff to come out to events.

What Tom is doing is balancing the need all over the place. You can't make all the people happy all the time, but you can make MOST of the people happy MOST of the time.

The Xmags are coming out, slowly yes, but they are coming out. (We do realize, Ddinwdc, that Tom doesn't actually OWN the Xmag body right? He gets them from AGD-E.) Tom is doing aluminum bodies for people now. He's working on the Y-Grip frames. He's working on the superlight mechanical trigger. He is also taking time to do events throughout the US with his staff.

What would happen if he decided to not do one of those projects. People would get angry wouldn't they? He can't make EVERYBODY happy. He has to do what he can and balance.

It's very easy for us to say "Why don't you do this or why don't you do that." The thing is, are we in his position? Do we have to deal with the issues of production and research that he does? No.

We can voice our opinion. It's a free country. However, until we walk a mile in Tom's shoes, we shouldn't criticize his business practices. He's smart enough to have gotten this far. What say we let the man do his work and get off his back?

EDIT-- And at least keep it to ONE thread. There are 3 on this page alone dealing with this. We all know there's a wait. Deal with it. You're stating the obvious.

[WARPED1]

It's simple, you need to spend money to make money. He needs to sideline all projects except 1, like the Xmag. Buy the design, invest in milling machines in house, hire more staff, and crank those puppies out!
Customers are sick to death of waiting, and even some die hard AGD folks will move on. TK says if you're sick of waiting, buy a differen't gun. This is a piss poor business strategy. He's basically telling you not to buy his stuff.
Everyone says it's expensive. True. But if you get the Xmag out in full swing, the non AO crowd will see what they been missing and pick one up.
It seems AGD has lots of projects 90% done, and not one 100% done.
Well, that last 10% is going to take 90% of your time, I see horrid time mismanagement.
If I were AGD, I'd either pack it in and call it quits, or meet the demand the public wants.
People say, once the AO crowd gets satisfied, he wouldn't need all that extra stuff. That's where heavy advertising swings in. If you saturate the public with images of AGD stuff, get some more pros using them, they would be flying out the door!
Maybe, if feasable, lower the price a bit, or offer a cheaper base model or something of the sort. Make the ACE an option, not standard. Who needs it with LX anyway?
[/rant]

[Dayspring]

Tom himself said that there will ALWAYS be a wait for the Xmags. If people don't want to wait for the pretty Xmag, go with a ULEmag. It's the same performance, not as pretty but is a cheaper alternative. And once the production of bodies gets REALLY going, there will be upgrade body kits.

Tom could go out and drop all sorts of $, but then what happens if he doesn't sell all the Xmags? He's got $$$$ invested and gets $$ return. That doesn't balance out. Companies that do that go out of business.

There are things that we aren't seeing that Tom has to deal with in regards to production of these works of art. We can speculate and say "Tom should do this." But in reality, it's his company and he'll run it as he sees fit.

[MinimagRockin']

ddinwdc and warped, you guys are the voice of reason, preach on.

Dayspring: If the xmag is the flagship gun they should be making a hell of alot more of them. How can you call something your "flagship" gun if no one can get one, and you can't even come close to meeting demand? It's ludicrous.

Dansim: That was the most ignorant post of this thread. Sure I'll go buy them some more milling machines with my own money so I can spend another $1500 on the gun they crank out. And this is by far not falling on deaf ears. AO is the reason you have lx, ule bodies, xvalve, etc, etc. The list goes on, AO is the best thing that's happend to AGD in a long time and AGD does listen.

[WARPED1]

Obviously TK's not confident the Xmag would sell. Running a business is a gamble.

Tom could go out and drop all sorts of $, but then what happens if he doesn't sell all the Xmags? He's got $$$$ invested and gets $$ return. That doesn't balance out. Companies that do that go out of business.
If he goes this way, and doesn't take a risk, the novelty of the X will fade, and we won't hear about AGD anymore.
Sure he can run his company as he sees fit, but the way he's appearently going, he will never "make it".

[MinimagRockin']

Originally posted by Dayspring
Tom himself said that there will ALWAYS be a wait for the Xmags. If people don't want to wait for the pretty Xmag, go with a ULEmag. It's the same performance, not as pretty but is a cheaper alternative. And once the production of bodies gets REALLY going, there will be upgrade body kits.

Tom could go out and drop all sorts of $, but then what happens if he doesn't sell all the Xmags? He's got $$$$ invested and gets $$ return. That doesn't balance out. Companies that do that go out of business.

There are things that we aren't seeing that Tom has to deal with in regards to production of these works of art. We can speculate and say "Tom should do this." But in reality, it's his company and he'll run it as he sees fit.

AGD knows that the xmag will sell more than the current trikle of them becoming available, they know it for a fact, so increasing supply will result in more sales. If sales start slowing they can always slow down production. It's a simple formula really, that's why I'm so curious to know why they aren't doing anything about it. As far as the last part of your post; In my original post I wasn't saying that Tom should do anything, I was asking a question.

[wyn1370]

Originally posted by Dayspring
The complaining is getting somewhat excessive really...

There are at least 3 different threads all dealing with this. And we can say and post all we want, but the fact of the matter is, the Xmags are being done about 35-40 a month. There will ALWAYS be a wait for them. That comes STRAIGHT from Tom himself. The Xmag is the flagship marker.

Honestly, all the complaining isn't going to get the guns out faster. Good things come to those who wait.
I agree the amount of complaints has increased. But think about it. It's finally boiling over. People are sick of waiting. Quality control this and supplier issues that. They have been in production for over a year and how many are out? Not what Tom keeps claiming production level should produce. This issue went away for a long time, but what did that solve? nothing, so everyone is finally voicing their opinion that they have kept bottled up for a year.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by wyn1370

I agree the amount of complaints has increased. But think about it. It's finally boiling over. People are sick of waiting. Quality control this and supplier issues that. They have been in production for over a year and how many are out? Not what Tom keeps claiming production level should produce. This issue went away for a long time, but what did that solve? nothing, so everyone is finally voicing their opinion that they have kept bottled up for a year. Exactly, 6 months is a friggin ridiculous amount of time! 1 or 2 months is ok imo.

[Shykicker]

One inconsistancy I'm seeing is the coexisting of two problems that SHOULD, by all feats of logic, cancel eachother out:

1. AGD: There aren't enough buyers.

2. AO: There aren't enough guns.

How can both these problems exist? Because AGD insists on selling through vendors. That, in itself, is fine. But when you're relying on external stores to buy exactly as much as you have produced, you end up either not making enough guns to settle the demand (and end up with dissapointed customers), or you make too many to eliminate the surplus (and end up with dissapointed bankers).

Why not sell the surplus on www.airgun.com? AGD Europe sells their own guns, why can't we?

If the problem is maintaining an appeal for vendors to buy, it's relatively moot. There are already tons of AGD vendors out there to begin with, and one central retailer isn't going to effect their sales much, PROVIDED they are sold at similar or slightly higher prices, and at no heightened interest to the buyer.

If the problem is that consumer interest may not be there, adjust your schedule to compensate.

How can we aliviate both problems at once? Provide the surplus (unordered) amount of guns FIRST at the airgun.com store, at a heightened price from the estimated retail, and then allow the competing vendors to sell them for cheaper.

Personally, I would rather spend more money on a quality product than spend more time waiting for it. What good is a product that never comes? If cost is such a problem, I don't think that anybody buying an X-Mag is going to mind an extra $10 to improve AGD. It's a drop in the bucket.

I'm no economist, to be sure, but I think it's a creative solution, and I'd like to see how it fares with you guys. I'm sure there are factors that I haven't considered, so feel free to have a stab at it.

To pose a final question...

If a person buys an X-Mag, retro-fits it with a Y-grip, and installs a Z body- is it an XYZ-Mag?

[than205]

Here's my thoughts:
I look at the X-mag Cut and Carved as a "Premium and Custom" paintball marker.
I look at Emag as the flagship and future basis of AGD markers.
I think a great bunch of people saw the C&C and decided they wanted something pretty. Honestly, what does it give you over the a regular emag?

Ace? (bell or whistle?) And I don't see the point with L10.

Pretty milling?

Removable breech? (ummm kinda neat but...)

The last thing you come to is weight. Well ULE seems to be covering that pretty well.

The wait on the ULE bodies: I honestly believe that AGD was hoping some other companys' would have been able to take the Sluggos and run with them. Thereby making all kinds of "different" types of mags and AGD could offer the "Engine" (valve) to make it all run. Well that didn't take off so he started making the ULE bodies.
I look at the ULE bodies as still just an AO thing. I do believe it's growing though.

Availability: this is just based on my thoughts. I think AGD likes their vendors and like any supplier wants to provide to them first. To me that's the way it goes. They are the future walk-in sales. They can put it in the hands of the prospective non-AO buyer.

To sum up, if you need all the fluff of the C&C. If you believe that the fluff makes you a better player or the game more fun. At least for now, there's a wait.

It's all about the science. Cause if it isn't, then Elves do exist and we all bought the wrong stuff.

[WARPED1]

Well, cool anno and sexy milling give you at least +6 BPS!:p

[Mr.Minus]

hmmi read 5 posts of this thread and thought...

didnt tom kaye (agd) just answer this? he said that previous projects did not sell very well even though they were very well received by the AO community, i know i would say something is a great idea, but in the end not buy something, which is what they want to avoid...thats one reason why they only make smaller quantities, (past experience), i guess we have not proved ourselves at AO