For Those Who Couldn't Wait.....(x-mag)

[No sKiLLz]

I have started this thread for those of us who are (or even were) loyal AGD patrons who have gotten tired of waiting, and WOULD have bought the X-mag, but instead were forced to go elsewhere.

I have read all the threads and responses (including Toms) about the who, what, why, and when the X-mags orders would start getting filled. There are many valid points in those threads, but after being a loyal AGD customer since 1995, I was truthfully hurt by Toms comment telling us to go elsewhere.

If you were on the waiting list, or had considered buying the X-mag but PURCHASED SOMETHING ELSE in the same price range, please post a reply. I would like this to be a gauge to AGD of the actual effect of bottlenecking production of the X-mag.

First one: No sKiLLz now has the NY Xtreme Matrix...

P.S. After spending $1,300 on a marker, it might be a while before I purchase another AGD product.

[freek133]

I got tired of waiting really early, and picked up a Matrix myself... I dont see myself going back to agd any time soon, though I still have my minimag as a backup, that thing just refuses to stop shooting.

[personman]

I think this post is pretty rude and immature.. I think if Tom could actually speed up the production rate he would.

[darklord]

I had an e-mag, now I have a LED matrix.

I can't say I really disliked the e-mag... a deal came around and I took it. I am very satisfied with the matrix. I can say I wanted an x-mag at one point, but signing up to be on a waiting list was not really ideal for me.

Anyway I can't say I have a real problem with AGD, I've been satisfied with their products, but I am almost more satisfied with my matrix than I ever was with my e-mag. So what is this thread trying to prove? The actual # of people who were going to buy x-mags but bought something else? People switch guns/companies ALL the time.

[thecavemankevin]

when and where did tom say that?

Must have missed that thread

[cdawg]

Originally posted by personman
I think this post is pretty rude and immature.. I think if Tom could actually speed up the production rate he would.

I disagree. This post will give Tom an indication of how much potential money he has lost. I'm sick of this "quality control" issue. I don't see Angels having "quality control" issues, and they are in the same price bracket. Someone has to say it... Mr. Kaye, if you don't expand your production you will lose money.

I would have bought an Xmag.

[Crazy]

I now shoot a timmy and will never go back =\

[Rancid Milk]

Originally posted by thecavemankevin
when and where did tom say that?

Must have missed that thread
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81107

originally posted by AGD
People, please don't complain, if you don't want to wait just buy another gun. The Xmags are always going to have a wait now and forever.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by personman
I think this post is pretty rude and immature.. I think if Tom could actually speed up the production rate he would. Not rude at all. Tom could speed up production if he'd spend a little money.(ads, in house milling machines, staff)

[akunochi]

I really really wanted an X-mag but ended up buying a 2k2 dark angel. I guess I might still pick up a x-mag after production picks up. I must say that no AGD product has had to be recalled yet. Tom I still look forward to metting you at D-day in Oklahoma as my general.

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Not rude at all. Tom could speed up production if he'd spend a little money.(ads, in house milling machines, staff)

that's more than a little money. :rolleyes:

[56kSomeGuy]

Originally posted by MantisMag


that's more than a little money. :rolleyes:


Well you got to spend some money to make money... Also I did get tired of waiting buy still settled for the second best thing at the time which was a micro-e which I still have.

[beefstew]

Originally posted by cdawg


I disagree. This post will give Tom an indication of how much potential money he has lost. I'm sick of this "quality control" issue. I don't see Angels having "quality control" issues, and they are in the same price bracket. Someone has to say it... Mr. Kaye, if you don't expand your production you will lose money.

I would have bought an Xmag.

I have had multiple WDP markers not work out of the box or crap out on me very early on. Any of the emags i have used or bought have not gone down once.
I bought i bushy after my emag because i didnt want to spend that much on a pball gun but if i was going to i would wait.

[fire1811]

gee i had and angel lcd and i went though 5 YES 5 boards in 6 months. your right no quality control issues there :rolleyes:

i had an xmag on order and i ended up
with an.......XMAG

quit cryin and wait like everyone else has

[dansim]

Originally posted by cdawg


I disagree. This post will give Tom an indication of how much potential money he has lost. I'm sick of this "quality control" issue. I don't see Angels having "quality control" issues, and they are in the same price bracket. Someone has to say it... Mr. Kaye, if you don't expand your production you will lose money.

I would have bought an Xmag.

you also dont see how many angels are brought in for warranty work out of teh box, i have, and frankly if you were on another fourm "HEAVILY" populated by one group that has been established as long as this one you will see that companys should implement some quality control issues...better yet hers a buggy block of aluminum have fun:rolleyes:

[dansim]

Originally posted by 56kSomeGuy



Well you got to spend some money to make money... Also I did get tired of waiting buy still settled for the second best thing at the time which was a micro-e which I still have.

thats just retarded, come into a real market place and price the machines that youd need to make these damn curves and cuts and what not and your looking into probally half a mil or more for quality machines that can turn out faster production, perhaps if you ever own a company youll see how much it really costs

[Tron]

Bought an RT Pro and had problems with cosmetics from the beginning and no help. Still thought I would stick it out with AGD when I heard about the XMag. Saw the posts on the waiting list gave it time here it is May and I bought a Dragon timmy. Love the gun and am very happy. I would of gotten an Xmag but I can't wait 6-7 months with $1,400 gone and nothing to show for it.

-Tron

[Tron]

lol now that I think about it I guess I should of waited I could of put the Xmag money in the bank in a savings account. I could of bought a case of paint and a day of play with the interest on the money when I finally got it. :rolleyes:

-Tron

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by dansim


thats just retarded, come into a real market place and price the machines that youd need to make these damn curves and cuts and what not and your looking into probally half a mil or more for quality machines that can turn out faster production, perhaps if you ever own a company youll see how much it really costs
$40,000 for a CNC machine, but they could make back the investment in no time.

[56kSomeGuy]

Originally posted by dansim


thats just retarded, come into a real market place and price the machines that youd need to make these damn curves and cuts and what not and your looking into probally half a mil or more for quality machines that can turn out faster production, perhaps if you ever own a company youll see how much it really costs

I posted that before tom posted his reasons which made me take back what I said but still maybe AGD could do some more in ads and such...

[krafty]

Originally posted by WARPED1

$40,000 for a CNC machine, but they could make back the investment in no time.

The machine that makes an AGD valve is over a quarter million dollars. I would hazard a guess and say the machines doing the bodies are a bit more.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Well..let me see what I've had since I've been waiting on an X...

eMag, MAmba IR3, 2 Timmy's, Outkast Cocker, 2k3 LE LCD Angel, X-Valved ULE Mag and probably a few more I can't remember..

If anyone knows a shop with a blue or blue/black fade X mag..I've got $1400+ in the bank waiting for you..

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by krafty


The machine that makes an AGD valve is over a quarter million dollars. I would hazard a guess and say the machines doing the bodies are a bit more. Xmags are done on a CNC mill, which cost around $40K.

[dansim]

uh huh and how fast is the cnc machine that makes the xmag, how many could you mak in a 8 hour day? how many machines to make the bodys, how many for breeches, how many for ules, how many for y grips/frames, how many machines to buil all the extra room they would need to add on to teh building?:p

[WARPED1]

AS I already said somewhere, AGD has to spend money to make money. Get more space, machines, staff.
No idea how long they take, can't be too long. My friend used to work on a CNC macine making the metal plates for Crane(who makes our paper for money) grinding machines.
He knocked out quite a few in his 8 hour day.

[dansim]

well i remember reading somewhere it takes over 1200 passes with acnc machine to make a cnc xmag, and toms stated they dont make enough to live off of on the xmag so obviously its not that great of an investement

[MantisMag]

spending money to make money does not work if you don't make that money back in a reasonable amount of time. driving yourself into debt, attempting to improve your company and then taking 10 years to make back the money you spent while technology is progressing and making what you spent your money on obsolete, is not good business sense and is an incredibly long run-on sentence. :p

[freek133]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
and probably a few more I can't remember..


Didnt you have a matrix for just a little while?

[FalconGuy016]

I believe the xmag could be on the angel level in sales because of its supreme goodness. But ONLY IF there are plenty to go around. There are MANY non-Agd supporting people who would buy the xmag, but not for a wait like now. $1400 times... how many? 100 so far? $1400 x 100 = $140,000. Lets take away $120,000 for expenses to be generous, and you have a $20,000 on 100 guns. Now, if AGD invested in some new machines, people, space, and cranked xmags out at a faster pace, imagine those numbers rise. Imagine thousands of xmags being sold because you can buy them at any pro shop or online store, like an angel. Now, more money for AGD, and more xmags for everyone

[Miscue]

Imagine all the people... living for today...

;)

Not that simple...

[AlabamaMan]

congratz falconguy on more than a 2 word reply

imagine what tom said.... X-mag bodies are made in europe. Sorry to say but 20 grand wouldn't be close to enough to set up a shop to make them in the US.

Behold the power or reading.

[FooTemps]

Imagine AGD spending upwards for 1.5 million for those facilities to increase production. I mean, one machine tooled for valve, one tooled for gripframe, one tooled for body, one tooled for breeches, one tooled for cnc battery packs. Then there's larger facilities. And since there are more machines, there has to be a bigger staff. And since they got larger facilities, there are moving costs. Then they have to start everything back up. Then they have to pay for all the extra resouces they are using... Now, is AGD going to make that much money back with xmag sales? NO

[Tron]

Originally posted by AlabamaMan
imagine what tom said.... X-mag bodies are made in europe. Sorry to say but 20 grand wouldn't be close to enough to set up a shop to make them in the US.

Behold the power or reading.

They would be able to if AGDE didn't own the design. Imagine all the crap they have to go through just to get the bodies from Europe.

-Tron

[AlabamaMan]

Originally posted by Tron


They would be able to if AGDE didn't own the design. Imagine all the crap they have to go through just to get the bodies from Europe.

-Tron

So the fact that another company owns the design changes the cost of setting up a shop to make them?

No.

[Tron]

Originally posted by AlabamaMan


So the fact that another company owns the design changes the cost of setting up a shop to make them?

No.

Actually ya... :rolleyes: Even if it cost them $1 to make the bodies I doubt they could with another company owning the design. If they didn't I think tom might take the hit and make them here in the US with a third party like almost everything they do.

-Tron

[AlabamaMan]

Sure if the tooling was implemented to make the bodies over here, it would be cheaper to produce them here.
How much money would it take to buy the rites to machine the body? If that is even an issue. Add that to actully getting them made... how much would that cost?

What i'm saying is that initial costs for those type of things are crazy. Tom said they are having 500 or so body's made. Is it worth it for AGD to move production over here?

If they sell 1000 X-mags Probably not.
If they sell 2000 X-mags Maybe.

[Gadget]

I doubt if many people on AO aside from Manike and possibly Tom know exactly how much the machine that makes the X-Mag body costs.

Saying 'oh a CNC mill only costs $40k' is like saying that a car only costs x-amount. Yes _some_ machines may cost $40k, but the ones needed to do the X-Mag bodies may cost considerably more.

The whole "well if I can't have an X-Mag NOW {petulant stamping of feet} I'll go and buy a marker made by someone else and NEVER EVER buy another AGD product ever, SO THERE! {pouting lower lip}" posturing is just a teensie bit pathetic. But for those who enjoy sounding like sulky school children, by all means continue.

[cdawg]

In response to everyone who is saying they have board problems or other issues with their Angels... get a $50 warranty from TAG and it's STILL cheaper than an Xmag.

[Surreal]

well, lets say it DOES in fact cost 40 grand for the machine. at 1,200+ bucks a pop, they would have to sell 34 xmags to fully recover the cost of the machine alone. if the machine was 50k, they would have to sell 41 xmags. 60k, 50 xmags..

how long is the waiting list for xmags already? at least a hundred? if people could buy them on demand, i know for sure that many more people would buy them rather than signing up for a 6 month waiting list..

hell, the Xmag is the only mag i've ever desired, and if i didnt have to wait 6 months for one, i would definitely want that over the angel speed, 2k3 shocker and nerve. but we cant all have what we want.

AGD could make some serious bank if they did their own milling. no duh it would cost alot at first, as does ANYTHING. over a long period of time, AGD would so easily make that money back, and bank much more. not only would they be able to make xmags in house, they would be able to make emags, mini's, retro's, ect. And since AGD is all for the customer (;)) it would most likely bring down the price of mags even further over a longer period of time. you're thinking of the future, right?

[Russ]

All this talk of machinery...

Don't you guys get it? AGD is not a machine shop. They do not manufacture the products they sell.

Creating an entire machine shop, with all the personel, machines, inspection facilities...gimme a break!

Again, AGD is not in the machining buisness!

[MantisMag]

this is getting stupid. i'm not posting on any of these threads again about costs of production. people don't want to listen and just want to simplify until it gets to the point where they see what they want to. :mad: when will you people understand!? it's not just the cost of purchasing the machines. it's also the cost of running them, the cost of materials, the cost of labor, the cost of maintenance, the cost of space to house them, the cost of moving the product to the warehouse from manufacturing... add up ALL of these then MAYBE we can talk about how much money they could make and how much they're risking. :mad::mad::mad:

[manike]

Originally posted by MantisMag
this is getting stupid. i'm not posting on any of these threads again about costs of production. people don't want to listen and just want to simplify until it gets to the point where they see what they want to. :mad: when will you people understand!? it's not just the cost of purchasing the machines. it's also the cost of running them, the cost of materials, the cost of labor, the cost of maintenance, the cost of space to house them, the cost of moving the product to the warehouse from manufacturing... add up ALL of these then MAYBE we can talk about how much money they could make and how much they're risking. :mad::mad::mad:

Agreed. But when it comes to products like this you also have to factor in R&D and prototyping.

Not to mention tooling, fixtures and power...

[DiRTyBuNNy]

not to mention all the secret tools that Q makes for 007...Manike...Manike Bond...

[Major Ho]

YOUR 100% correct! I COULDNT wait for an Xmag. I DIDNT feel like spending ~$1500. So you know what. I bought...scratch that, BUILT a friggin Emag. Ive been told by a couple of Xmag owners that they dont even turn on their ACE. You want cocker threads?! Get a slug/ULE body...OOOOOH! HARRRRRD?! The "regular" Emag is the lil brother/sister to the Xmag. Performance is the same. How can so many people be so tunnel visioned to not see that?

[AlabamaMan]

Because the X-mag looks cool. All the little kids want cool, but all the little kids don't know how to wait.

[freek133]

In defence of these "kids who dont know how to wait"

Some people wanted to try out some different guns while waiting on the xmag, I mean jeeez! whats so wrong with that? Are you calling DirtyBunny a "kid who doesn't know how to wait"?

Someone said that this post was "rude and immature",

What are you basing that on, someone's patience level? That seems to be the only thing you could base it on, and if so, you dont have the right to say that... Sure its your opinion but my opinion now is that you are rude and immature for stating that, people have a right to spend their money on anything they want if they dont want to wait for an xmag.

I was enjoying seeing what some ao'ers decided to switch to in their wait for the xmag, we have been spoiled by a very reliable product that is also one of the fastest guns around (mechanical or electronic) and its neat to see what other gun we would put faith in when playing.

Whatever happened to that saying "if you dont like it, dont reply to the thread"

Many people on this forum are so freaking quick to judge, on a certain "best electro" thread, the xmag was voted number one though I doubt 90% of these people even today have shot it. And when a subject comes up that doesn't glorify AGD, you guys stomp it in the ground. If you dont like what was said in this post, keep to yourself, trust in ao'ers ability to read a sticky saying that AGD cant dish out the number of xmags the consumers would like them to.

I've been here for a decent amount of time, and have owned 3 mags... I am an AGD supporter, but frankly am disgusted with the people on these forum's attitude. This place has turned into an intellectual PBN. The only thing that separates AO from PBN is the use of big words and the few nice people here (AGD, MANIKE, CPHILLIP, KEVMASTER, LOAD SM5, MISCUE, BLACK VCG, HEAT, ... etc)and there.

Help out AGD, and these forums, keep your damn holier than thou attitudes in check.

People are entitled to their opinion, and are entitled to post their opinions on a paintball related forum, all of the guys who posted in this thread were or are still AGD supporters, leave them alone for trying something new and grow up.

by no means am I talking to everyone here,

EDIT: Hitech, your cool in my book. Watching you debate with jim drew about the was boards was very cool, and even though most of the people originally debating had stopped, you stuck to your opinion until you learned what you wanted to know, great form!:)

And another guy who I forgot, Shartley, he gives his honest opinion about everything and is not one to just follow the crowd.

[Ryknow]

Originally posted by Crazy
I now shoot a timmy and will never go back =\
amen brotha'! I was on the pro-order list, but instead picked up a solid black 2k3 Lasoya Timmy.

[GT]

Originally posted by dansim


you also dont see how many angels are brought in for warranty work out of teh box, i have, and frankly if you were on another fourm "HEAVILY" populated by one group that has been established as long as this one you will see that companys should implement some quality control issues...better yet hers a buggy block of aluminum have fun:rolleyes:

hmm I remember seeing some pics on here of miss matched anno on the modules to body. Sorry but every company has some issuses. How many angels does WDP sell in one month?

jb

[GT]

Originally posted by freek133
I am an AGD supporter, but frankly am disgusted with the people on these forum's attitude. This place has turned into an intellectual PBN.

The only thing that separates AO from PBN is the use of big words and the few nice people here (AGD, MANIKE, CPHILLIP, KEVMASTER, LOAD SM5, MISCUE, BLACK VCG, HEAT, ... etc)and there.

Help out AGD, and these forums, keep your damn holier than thou attitudes in check.


AMEN,
The sad thing is, some of the poop flining comes from some of the mods:eek: . BTW my list isnt even that long but be sure to add TAG to the good guys side. anyways back to the subject.....

I am confused as to what we are actually milling out of country on the X's? It sounds to me like the body is the only thing that is done across the pond. I also believe that 'building' the product isnt where the cost is, but the actual copyright/license of the product. I thought AGD and AGDE were the same company? If not then i can bet someone is making a fat knot on the xmag design.

jb

[hitech]

Originally posted by freek133
The only thing that separates AO from PBN is the use of big words and the few nice people here (AGD, MANIKE, CPHILLIP, KEVMASTER, LOAD SM5, MISCUE, BLACK VCG, HEAT, ... etc)and there.


I try to be nice, really. ;)

[MantisMag]

manike - i knew there had to be more. that's why i threw in the ellipsis and that big MAYBE! ;) in case anybody actually did figure that all out. HAHA! yeah right. but if they did then we can say "ok that's a bit closer. now figure this in there too." :D

freek and anyone else defending these threads, i don't have a problem with the fact that they're upset that the wait is so long. if i was actually going to purchase an X-mag i would be pretty upset about the wait too. however i would not be attempting to bully AGD into making more. that's just childish. make more! make more! i want mine NOW! i don't care if you can't. spend money to GET the capability. i know your profit margin isn't that big but you can sell a LOT of them. and it doesn't cost that much. i don't care what other people say it costs. it doesn't cost much. you'll make the money back fast. cause they're backordered now. yeah i know a lot of people backed out. i know that a few Xmags took a long time to sell. but i want one. i want it specially set up for me. and i want it here now. blah blah blah. :rolleyes:

sorry this is uncharacteristically hostile for me but there's been an awful lot of whining and it's getting on my nerves. sure if i was waiting for an xmag i'd probably post about it. but the tone would be different. mine would be "i WISH they could make more of them. i WISH my xmag was here. i'll be waiting on the doorstep watching the UPS man drive by." ;) because i can understand the reasons why they're backordered and production is slow. so any posts about speeding up production and getting an xmag quickly would be just wishful thinking.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

back in front of the polls...

-Ryan

[Marek]

Well, in keeping with the spirit of free speech, I think this thread is a waste of server space.

Honestly, don't you think that Tom Kaye took all of these things into consideration? If his company has survived and prospered this long, don't you think it's for a reason? The company makes good products and tries to please its customers.

And you know what, I agree with the people about the whining. It's sad. How can I say that, well, I just did. What is my basis? I mean c'mon, now I have to give a dissertation about why I think ppl are babies? Stop the whining; the company is trying to produce not only an advanced piece of machinery, but also continue with other projects.

If you are that hard pressed in getting a new fad, then get a matrix or get an impy or a pump gun for all I care. The fact of the matter is that you were not adament in getting an X-Mag. Does that mean all the people that bought other guns are bad or losers or whatever title you want to give?? Hell no, well, unless they start idiotic threads.

I think the worst part is that Tom Kaye reads this noise, on his own forum. There is a difference between posting your thoughts, and whats on your mind, and being blatant. :mad:

[GT]

Originally posted by Marek
Well, in keeping with the spirit of free speech, I think this thread is a waste of server space.

Honestly, don't you think that Tom Kaye took all of these things into consideration? If his company has survived and prospered this long, don't you think it's for a reason? The company makes good products and tries to please its customers.

And you know what, I agree with the people about the whining. It's sad. How can I say that, well, I just did. What is my basis? I mean c'mon, now I have to give a dissertation about why I think ppl are babies? Stop the whining; the company is trying to produce not only an advanced piece of machinery, but also continue with other projects.

If you are that hard pressed in getting a new fad, then get a matrix or get an impy or a pump gun for all I care. The fact of the matter is that you were not adament in getting an X-Mag. Does that mean all the people that bought other guns are bad or losers or whatever title you want to give?? Hell no, well, unless they start idiotic threads.

I think the worst part is that Tom Kaye reads this noise, on his own forum. There is a difference between posting your thoughts, and whats on your mind, and being blatant. :mad:


Thanks for the great post,
You are only supporting and proving the statments that freek has already said. good for you.

I am still lost, since noone hase answered my question, why milling a body takes so long.

jb

[manike]

Originally posted by gtrsi
I am confused as to what we are actually milling out of country on the X's? It sounds to me like the body is the only thing that is done across the pond.

It's only the bodies and the modules which are made in Europe. Oh and barrels. Everything else is AGD USA. Milling an X-mag body takes less time than an SFL Intimidator, or a deadly wind 'chord' body.


Originally posted by gtrsi
I also believe that 'building' the product isnt where the cost is, but the actual copyright/license of the product.

Where did you get this information? Unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions on things you don't know.


Originally posted by gtrsi
I thought AGD and AGDE were the same company?

They are not. They are affiliated and work very closely together. AGDE is owned by John and Jackie Sosta.


Originally posted by gtrsi
If not then i can bet someone is making a fat knot on the xmag design.

Again, unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions or insinuations.

[Wc Keep]

a custom angel costs $1500. some of the custom angels only have 20 produced a month. the only reason why these are more available is because the demand is lower. im not bashing these angels because i will be getting one soon, but i have seen so many more boards burned on them than i do on emags.

honestly people its worth the wait. believe me.

[GT]

Originally posted by manike

Where did you get this information? Unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions on things you don't know.

Again, unless you have a VERY good source, I suggest not making assumptions or insinuations.

Manike,
First, thanks for answering my questions. Second, I can make any assumption or insinuate whatever I dam will please. I am not slandering anyone person just trying to figure out what the hold up is on the xmag production. so...... back to the topic at hand

Second,
to all the folks that say I am whinning: Look if you are told by someone that a product will be ready on date X and it is not ready until date Y and then you get some lame reason like 'well if you dont like it go somewhere else' you would not question why? If you prefer to follow along in life blindly, fine with me, however I DO NOT LIVE LIKE YOU!.


It's only the bodies and the modules which are made in Europe. Oh and barrels. Everything else is AGD USA. Milling an X-mag body takes less time than an SFL Intimidator, or a deadly wind 'chord' body.

So the argument that it takes millions in equipment may or may not be true. It also doesnt sound like a time issue unless the mill that is cutting X's is also contracted for other work.

My first point,
If AGDE owns the 'right' to the xmag body then would it be safe to say that AGDE is the one 'allowing' AGD to use thier design here in the US, therefore after AGD pays AGDE for the lic/copyright of the X little profit is made by AGD? If that is true then I can understand the statement that there is little profit in the Xmag. It would be the equalivant of WGP making angels, IE wgp paying out the nose to WDP for thier design.

Second,
Whats the hold up? Is it that there is 'contracted' shop that must be used to mill this bodies? Or are there a number of other issues that keep production?


jb

Note: Thanks to Manike for the insite, Heaven forbid someone actually provide some info instead of complaining about the folks who posted in this thread. :rolleyes:

[hitech]

When telling the "general" public when you will be ready to ship you have two choices. One, tell them when you really think it will be ready. Maybe even let them in on why. The problem with this is that if ANYTHING goes wrong your dates slip. Since you have already told them why, might as well tell them why it slipped.

The other way to handle it is to "Manage Expectations". Give them a date you are SURE you can meet. If you're early, great. The problem with this is you risk complaining that the date it too far in the future.

Tom sometimes does one, sometimes the other. Generally, he lets us in on what it really going on. However, the more "I don't care, I'm the customer" complaints he reads the less likely we are to hear the inside scoop.

Things take time to make. Mistakes are made. Things don't always go as planned. Murphy shows up at the worst possible moment. Aren't we better off knowing what it actually happening than having our expectations properly managed?

[manike]

GTRSI,

I have a real problem with people assuming things they don't know and posting them as fact. Which is what you did. Others then pick this up and keep running with it as if it is fact which it very definitely isn't. You are wrong in what you said, and it came over as if you knew what you were talking about.

Time to put the record straight because I don't want other people taking what you said as an opinion to be fact. You appear to be trying to imply the shortage of X-mags blame lies with AGDE and it very definitely doesn't. There wouldn't be any X-mags at all without AGDE. If AGDE decided to stop right now but let AGD continue with the X-mag, AGD wouldn't be able to offer you the X-mag at the current price.

The cost of the body is not in copyright to AGDE.

There is no 'one shop' contracted to do the milling.

AGDE would be very happy to get someone else to do it I believe. They never wanted to do production they just wanted to do R&D with their mill. Last I heard they would be very happy if Tom could get a shop to make them in the USA.

Yes there is other work to be done on AGDE's mill.

X-mag bodies are made by AGDE in Europe, because that is currently the cheapest place to get them made. And that's the bottom line. You can't get the numbers made (and that are demanded) anywhere else at the same or for less. SO what choices are there?

X-mag barrels are made in Europe because again it is the most cost effective way to do it.

AGDE aren't stopping X-mags being made anywhere else.

They aren't charging through their teeth for AGD to use the X-mag design.

They aren't limiting the numbers being made other than because there is physically no way of making more on their mill.

To get more made, more investment has to be made, and there isn't that money available, nor is there overwhelming evidence that it would be the right strategy.

If Tom wants more in the USA, he needs to find a way to make that happen for the USA.

I believe more marketing and more investment into manufacturing would work, but Tom is being much more cautious than that. He has been burned before it would seem (Z-grips and roller triggers come to mind). He doesn't have big money to throw at such a high risk project which ultimately he might not make that much back from.

He has lower safer risk options which he is following right now, while still having the X-mag at the top bringing people over to see what AGD has to offer.

To get another machine shop (say in the USA) to make more bodies/guns you would have to order higher numbers from them than there is currently demand for. The numbers it would take to get the price down the same or similar to AGDE would be greater than demand and so AGD would then have huge inventory costs sat on a shelf? That would be stupid.

So instead of looking to get them made in the USA AGD is having to make do with what they can get from the UK.

The demand here on AO is not the same in all of paintball, we just see a very vocal few. Demand in all of the market in the USA needs to go up for it to be the right decision to invest the money and risk into upping production. So until then having some available and making them a 'wanted icon' is helping AGD get noticed and hopefully increasing demand for all of AGD products.

Also there is more to the X-mag than just the body.

The ACE and board takes time to make and to assemble. The Frames need to be machined to accept the ACE board (= extra cost :( ) (all supposed to be done in the USA I think). Several batches of guns have been held up by frames and ACE boards...

[Marek]

Originally posted by gtrsi



Thanks for the great post,
You are only supporting and proving the statments that freek has already said. good for you.

I am still lost, since noone hase answered my question, why milling a body takes so long.

jb

I guees freek and I are on the same wave. Which is good, since I am not the only one. One thing that people have to take into consideration is that there are other factors, such as not getting parts, or delays that have to be accounted for. If the battery packs (an example) doesn't come in, cuz of delays, or not enough, they can't sell the guns and just say sorry, no battery packs on this batch.

Point being, there are always things in the background that Joe Public will not know about, and it's easy to complain and whine at the things that are visible. The fact of the matter, if you were to turn the tables, I bet you wouldn't feel too good right now, especially if someone came to your house and was wondering why is dinner taking so long. Is it that hard to make rack of lamb and baked alaska? Hell, if you want, I can further the analogy, but you should get my point.

[GT]

Manike,
Thanks for the post. I finally have read something that makes sense on why we see such low production numbers from AGD. It is nice to finally see some enlightning posts inside of senseless posts filled with 'grin and bare it' I understand about making my posts seem like what i say is this case however it is incorrect. It was incorrect however it did have the effect and out come I wanted;) .

Now the next battle is to get someone to sticky this so that we dont have the same topic come up week after week with the same awful replies.
jb

[Bartleby]

We all as consumers have established the "silent hand". If you want something, you reach into your wallet and pull out the money. If you do not want something, you put your wallet away. This is the way companies judge whether or not to produce and how much or little to produce, it is not by open conversation from a bunch of forum members thinking they all know the intricacies of creating and maintaining a paintball company in a profitable way.

My suggestion to all of you is, if you want the X-Mag, and you're willing to pay for it AND wait for it, then do so and tell Mr. Kaye you are supportive of his business by doing so.

However, if you want the X-Mag and are willing to pay for it but are UNwilling to wait for it, then don't.

It is a waste of time to sit here and argue about the ins and outs of running a business like AGD or AGDE. Do not harass Mr. Kaye for "not meeting the demand" and do not attempt to understand the reasoning for the current situation without having firsthand experience already. Use the power of the "silent hand" and show your appreciation or disapproval (whichever it may be) of the company. You do not flat-out attack a man that is trying to GIVE YOU the best quality product while still trying to achieve efficiency.

-Aaron

[GT]

Originally posted by Bartleby



It is a waste of time to sit here and argue about the ins and outs of running a business like AGD or AGDE. Do not harass Mr. Kaye for "not meeting the demand" and do not attempt to understand the reasoning for the current situation without having firsthand experience already.

-Aaron

Aaron,
hmm where should I start? I think it is guys like you who drive people away from message boards like this. You might want to open your mind a bit before you click on the 'post' button.

First,
I can post what I want to Mr. Kaye. He has granted almost unlimited access to the members of this board. Now I wont post or PM him something offensive however I will question what I like. I would also like to thank Tom, AGD, and all the mods of this board for allowing this access, I hope it continues, in good faith, for the future.

Second,
I fail to understand why it is improper to ask about the Xmag production. If you havnt noticed AO is a pretty tight nit group, a brotherhood if you will. In fact I give greater trade statues for my equip. to those whom do post regularly. Again if you want to be a sheep and follow along with the blinders on, fine with me. Trust me I think my poor little mind can handle sistuation. (BTW if you missed it Manike already posted why things are the way they are so maybe I(we) are not the simple minded here)

Third,
I like the silent hand comment. kinda like Money talks and BS walks. BTW: I do, as well as others, have my silent hand ready.

jb

[Marek]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Now I wont post or PM him something offensive however I will question what I like. I would also like to thank Tom, AGD, and all the mods of this board for allowing this access, I hope it continues, in good faith, for the future.

That's a great statement. I love that. This is thread, from your explanation in your first post, is a gauge for Tom Kaye to see on how many ppl would have bought an X-Mag but couldn't wait. That's not offensive, sure it's not. :mad:

How are you questioning what you like? If you really wanted the gun, then you should have been able to wait. You should read Tom's post again, because he even mentions that some places had them in stock, yes in stock, and never sold. What did you expect, that he would come and defend himself against this crap? Damn man, look up the word tact. You treat this as "information" for you, but you don't realize who it offends.

[freek133]

"if you really wanted the gun, you should have been able to wait"

Lets change that up a bit,

"if you really would like to have the gun, then you could purchase it when one becomes available to you"

Theres that mentality again, please try to stop telling people what they should do.

There is nothing wrong with purchasing another marker not made by agd... whether your on the waitlist for the xmag or not. What is wrong is people on this thread and in AO's forums telling others that it is wrong. Thats the point im trying to make, im not for or against people whining about when they get their gun, though I feel bad for the mods, they have to look through threads like these quite a bit nowadays.

This thread I believe, was started with good intentions, on finding out what some people had decided to try in their wait for an xmag. Thats just my opinion, based on what I read, yep marek... I think about what im gonna say, like alot of people on ao do, making it probably the best paintball forum on the net.

[GT]

Originally posted by Marek


That's a great statement. I love that. This is thread, from your explanation in your first post, is a gauge for Tom Kaye to see on how many ppl would have bought an X-Mag but couldn't wait. That's not offensive, sure it's not. :mad:

How are you questioning what you like? If you really wanted the gun, then you should have been able to wait. You should read Tom's post again, because he even mentions that some places had them in stock, yes in stock, and never sold. What did you expect, that he would come and defend himself against this crap? Damn man, look up the word tact. You treat this as "information" for you, but you don't realize who it offends.

first,
learn to read, I didnt start this thread.

Second,
What store has them in stock? Or was this some kind of yea we had them in stock but no one knew about them kinda things? Or were they instock at some store in po'dunk texas where even spending 100 bucks on a marker is a splurge. About a month ago after the completion of the last batch I logged on to AO and found a sticky where 3 were unclaimed at a retail store. guess what by the time I had read through the thread and got the phone number they were gone. lets not <B>*quack quack*</B> here, its a hot gun with a hot following. If the location appears on here that has one for sale it is gone in a matter of minutes.

third,
all I am asking is what takes so long to build a gun that was released 10 months ago? The simple facts, why is that so hard to get out of person(s) that know the answer and then make it a sticky?

Marek,
I am clueless as to why you feel the need to post useless dribble. You want to know what I really think?

About 2 days ago I started playing around in PS for the banner contest. I noticed that others, as well as myself, were doing all these cool desgins around the Xmag, and rightfully so its a great 'gun. However I become increasingly uncomfartable using the Xmag as the center piece. I truly believe that if you are going to show a product that it must be one that the consumer can actually buy. Wild idea I know. So then I began to search around AO and started reading some of the posts about getting an Xmag and the wait associated with 'the list'. I have decided that waitning for a 1400 product is something I dont want to do, why? Well for one it seems that each batch is different in some way, so I am kinda waiting for the 'final' desgin or evolution of the product and maybe a day were you can order it dirrectly from AGD and at your doorstep a few days later. I am also still unsure on what color to get, but that can be solved at anytime.

I think we already have an idea of the scope of the problem according some of the other posts. Someone please sticky a topic on such and let this post die.

jb

<B>*Warning: No Cussing*</B> -Miscue

[Marek]

I need to read? When did I ever write that you started this thread? You continue in this thread, with the same questions, yet the purpose of this entire thread was to show Tom Kaye. That is offensive. There are a several posts about the X-Mag, all saying the same thing. Tom Kaye writes a thread explaining his thoughts and what is going on. Yet, you still continue with this thread, the same thing over and over again.


Posted by Tom Kaye
Some facts about the xmags, we are currently 300 on backorder and its not going up. This is not a big backorder by any standards. We have 500 machined bodies in the pipeline right now. This is a prudent number in process for this level of backorders considering its such an expensive product. While AO has been complaining, there have been multiple dealers that have had these guns sitting on the wall and not selling. Adventure Games NH had the first 9 to come off the assembly line with no preorders. She wanted to cut it back to two but I told her to come to the AO dealers section and sell them. She did and got no takers in the auction she set up, she only took two. More were sitting at Predator Marketing in CA for weeks until an AO guy found them and bought them. This is even after I made a personal appearance out there to show them the marker and get them charged about it. Fox River Games home of our sponsored team Swarm had them sitting on the wall for weeks until AO found them there too.

That is what I was referring too. I guess you must have tunnel vision. There might be great demand here on AO, but you think the rest of the paintball community is like AO? I live in Timmy country, and alot of ppl are impressed with the X-Mags, but I have heard maybe one or two ppl wanting or searching for one. Im sorry to say, but that is a fact. But then again, you dont see me starting a thread or contributing to a thread that posts that for Tom Kaye to read.

Now, want to get technical, sure let's. The gun came out about 2 years ago, sold in the UK and Europe, and then came to the US. As explained by manike and others, there is a lot to take into consideration. The body is not the only thing to make, but that seems to be your only question about the delay. Do I know what the delay is? No. Then again, I have a Timmy and could care less. I am not interested in getting or waiting or whatever. My only point is have more respect. Semantics aside, the wording makes very little difference. Change up my wording any way you want, but the fact and point stays the same. Take it as you will, I could care less. Dribble or not, its up to you. Have a great night.

[GT]

You dont get it, my questions have already been answered!!!! What have you missed?

I am not here to show Tom jack. I just wanted to know what takes so long to get these guns in the hands of folks over here on AO. If I wanted to show him something I would try email, pm, or a phone call. I am sure he loves to chat with folks from the AO community


Originally posted by Marek

Do I know what the delay is? No. Then again, I have a Timmy and could care less.

hmmm... then why did you post? I am done with this topic, becuase I have gotten what I came for. If you would like to give me a lesson in 'respect' feel free to do so via pm, email or aim. Also note that if I was being disrepectful in anyway I am sure I would have gotten a PM from someone here, read mod or AGD himself, but that didnt happen.

jb

[Marek]

I posted cuz what i read was not tasteful. There are alot of ppl that dont shoot mags or looking for an xmag on here. I am one of thos ppl.

[Peach]

Okay... First: If people comment on how they would "love to buy a product," then it becomes available, and then no-one buys it.ie: Roller triggers. If the question of, "What marker did you buy because you couldn't wait for an xmag" seems to bee on the same page in superficial meaning, why would people answer you thruthfully, if they don't for Tom? Argue what you like, but I garentee alot of people who posted what gun they bought instead had lightly thought about getting an xmag, and probably wouldn't have purchased one regardless. Now, people are saying AO is turning into PBN. HMM! How many people on PBN actauly own the gun they say the do?

In the case of Dirty bunny, I aupplaud him for sticking with this product. He bought multiple markers throughout his wait, and I BET VERY HIGHLY the marker that you "SO LOVE NOW INSTEAD OF THE XMAG" will not even be in your posession when you WOULD have gotten that xmag. You will have a new "baby."

I am a true believer in quality, and that is what AGD delivers. If you want massproduced guns, paralleling japanese cars, GO FOR IT. I'll just sit and WAIT for my xmag, shooting the only guns I have ever bought, and still own, my emag and minimag rt.

I'm not going to reply to this thread again... because A: It's been started about 20 times. B: Contains usless bantering C: Untrue facts, ie: those that manike stated.

So please, keep it PG.

[TequilaMockingbird]

Well, thankfully there's a sticky on this now, maybe it'll cut down on these threads.
Personally I thought this one was in pretty bad taste anyways.

As for posting assumptions, that's just part of forums.... Not everyone is privy to accurate info, so when someone is asking for clarification it's expected they're going to have some things wrong.

gtrsi's quoted lines: "I am confused..." "I also believe..." "I thought...." "If not then I can bet..."

At no point did I read "I know for a fact that Tom is drowning in money." He was looking for someone to fill in the blanks, no reason to land on him like a sumo wrestler.

[manike]

Peach, you are calling me a liar?


Originally posted by Peach
C: Untrue facts, ie: those that manike stated.

Want to tell me what I stated that wasn't true? and want to tell me how you know better? :mad:

You'd better have some damn good evidence, or apologise, STHU and go post in another thread :rolleyes: :mad:

Some idiots on here really ought to learn from "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Surreal
well, lets say it DOES in fact cost 40 grand for the machine. at 1,200+ bucks a pop, they would have to sell 34 xmags to fully recover the cost of the machine alone. if the machine was 50k, they would have to sell 41 xmags. 60k, 50 xmags..

how long is the waiting list for xmags already? at least a hundred? if people could buy them on demand, i know for sure that many more people would buy them rather than signing up for a 6 month waiting list..

hell, the Xmag is the only mag i've ever desired, and if i didnt have to wait 6 months for one, i would definitely want that over the angel speed, 2k3 shocker and nerve. but we cant all have what we want.

AGD could make some serious bank if they did their own milling. no duh it would cost alot at first, as does ANYTHING. over a long period of time, AGD would so easily make that money back, and bank much more. not only would they be able to make xmags in house, they would be able to make emags, mini's, retro's, ect. And since AGD is all for the customer (;)) it would most likely bring down the price of mags even further over a longer period of time. you're thinking of the future, right?

I guess, power, heat, rent, transport, labor, and raw materials are all free... :)

[Tron]

Originally posted by manike
Peach, you are calling me a liar?



Want to tell me what I stated that wasn't true? and want to tell me how you know better? :mad:

You'd better have some damn good evidence, or apologise, STHU and go post in another thread :rolleyes: :mad:

Some idiots on here really ought to learn from "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

I think he ment you squashed those rumors. Even though you managed to do nothing but blame AGD and still not explain why it is slow. :p By the way I still want an Xmag just not possible to wait that long with $1,400 in the balance. But I want one. =)

-Tron

[MantisMag]

yeah i hope peach meant "ie:the ones manike pointed out in his posts" otherwise i think a smackdown is warranted.

gt- your previous implications seemed to be loaded questions. they were questions with the answers built into them. it seemed that they were more than just opinion. other people might read that and take it for fact. in other industries with other companies they probably would be right. but we're talking about AGD here. AGD is a small company. how many companies do you know where there's one man making basically all the decisions? how many of them do their own engineering for their product? how many of them work on marketing? i don't know how tom does it all and still has time to read the threads on AO. my suggestions is to show some tact and try to avoid sounding too hostile in your quest for information. would you walk into a party, however large and open to the public, and insult the host?other than that though you have some of the more intelligent posts questioning where the xmags went. it's a shame you get lumped in with the whiny brats.

marek - i think you're confused as to who gt is. gt did not state what this thread is for. he did not start this thread. no skillz did and then never posted again. anywhere. he has 2 posts total. this thread hasn't been used for it's original purpose since halfway through the first page. gtrsi didn't jump in until the second page. this thread's tone from the beginning was offensive. it had a valid idea but could've done without the commentary. remove the first two paragraphs from the first post and you've actually got a decent threadstarter. wouldn't have lasted but maybe it would've gone a little longer than it did. however that is not gt's fault. his posts were not calling for AGD to invest more money to make more xmags. he was asking why they take so long. to me at least, that's a big difference. if you go back and take a look at who said what i think you'll find that you've been picking fights with the wrong person. the ones you really want are already gone.

[No sKiLLz]

Wow. You know what, I started this thread and I pray to God I can end it. All of you have had great thoughts about a lot of different reasons, real or hypthesized, pertaining to the delay on X-mag production. I wanted to keep the first thread short but I can see that was a mistake. I should have been clearer about my intentions because somehow this thread got WAAAAYYYY off topic.

I have owned an automag classic since 1995 when I first started paintball with my friend in HS. Since then I have spent countless amounts of time and money to keep it competitive on the field. I have bought other markers, and shot other markers I liked, but out of all of them I've kept my mag the longest. I just recently sold it to purchase a higher end marker, which I thought would be the X-mag.

My HS friend had ordered his almost 4 months ago, and I was going to put in my order around the same time. I was getting a little discouraged on buying the X-mag because every time my friend tried to find out anything about when he would get it, there was no definite response. I wasn't sure how long I could wait to get a competitive marker, so I turned elsewhere.

Now truly, after being loyal to my mag for so long, and reading posts in this forum and being a distant cousin to this AGD family I was hurt to see Tom basically telling us if we didn't like it, that it was too bad, go elsewhere (I know those weren't his exact words, but can anyone else see why it would be construed as such?).

There is always a way to do things better, and make production more efficient. I don't presume to know how, but I do think it's up to AGD to find out, because markers are their business. My purpose for posting this thread was simple. I wanted to see if anyone else out there who was SERIOUS about buying the X-mag (hence I added the line about people who purchased high end markers recently) took Toms advice and picked up a different gun. I was interested in knowing what was being bought, and just how large a market the X-mag potentially had, not to spite anyone, but to gauge the public response to this whole situation. After reading all the replies, I 've decided it doesn't matter anymore. :rolleyes:

Next time I will try to post something a little more positive and concrete. Sorry guyz. :D

And as far as picking up several markers before the X-mag becomes readily available, like I said, these are expensive markers, so if you can buy two or three of them within several moths, God bless you, but with my rent and car payment I am fortunate to buy a new marker every couple of YEARS.

[MantisMag]

haha. what happened to you? i was starting to think you get your jollies from orphaning threads and seeing who adopts them. yeah it got off topic pretty fast. i think within 10 posts it was off. and we never seemed to find our way back. i think a prudent move to avoid a reputation as a troll would be to post about something everyone can agree on. try "AGD RULES!!!" or "E-MAGS ROCK!" nah skip that one. somebody's bound to gripe about the X on there. ;) post about women and how great it is to have them playing paintball. i think everyone can agree with that on some level or other. :D

[No sKiLLz]

Duly noted. My next thread will be on "What would you do if you were locked in a closet for 20 minutes with Keely Watson".

[Rooster]

"$20,000 on 100 guns"

This is hilarious. There is no way there is that much profit on 100 guns. I wouldn't be surprised if it was alot closer to 2000 on 100 guns. Expensive guns don't pay the bills. They get people interested. Many companies sell printers at a loss to sell ink at a premium. The same is true about an Xmag. The X mag gets people interested in AGD. The RT-Pro, basic Emag, Intelliframes, and Warp Feeds pay the bills.

If you can't wait for an Xmag; don't. But don't whine about it. You sound like the belly-aching children that have to be drug out of the department store becuase mommy wouldn't buy them a new toy.

[Paintchucker]

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=805674

This will hold me thru for a little while:

ULE body
Xvalve
Hyperframe
Freak
Custom Fade Revvy, since the Hyperframe only goes 10-13 :rolleyes:

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
Duly noted. My next thread will be on "What would you do if you were locked in a closet for 20 minutes with Keely Watson".

now that's a thread that's going places! :D:D:D

[sneakyhacker420]

i was gonna buy an x-mag but decided to pick up a nasty impulse instead of waiting 6 or more months


if only we didnt have to get of the bodies milled and shipped here from damn AGD-Europe... not to mention milling a bit faster so it doesnt take a day-per-body, Tom would have filled ALL the x-mag orders... soon, X-Mags will be rampant, and AGD will have to search for another superior design for the automag... i wonder what that will be

[manike]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
not to mention milling a bit faster so it doesnt take a day-per-body, Tom would have filled ALL the x-mag orders...

Where did you get this from? It's not true.

The X-mag body doesn't take anywhere near a day to mill. It takes one third of the time to mill an X-mag body than it does an SFL intimidator body.

For whats being done to the body (3d sculpturing) it takes less time than any of the similar competing products that I know of.

[No sKiLLz]

Hey, if u guyz have pics of these guns, it would be great to look at em. Even though they may not be as pretty as an X-mag (sigh) you could show em off. I have to get pic of my Matrix. I got it last Friday and it hasn't left my side since. It's not the X-mag, but it will definitely do for now. I'll try to get a pic of it up. And Manike, if that is your X-mag, I am so jealous.

Sneaky, ur imp is sick. I have never seen one that looked that good.


If you can't wait for an Xmag; don't. But don't whine about it. You sound like the belly-aching children that have to be drug out of the department store becuase mommy wouldn't buy them a new toy.

As far as Rooster accusing some of being whiners, FYI this is a forum. If no one expressed their opinions or concerns, it wouldn't exists as it does. And because it exists as a place where everyone can openly express their opinion, I will say that your comment was nothing more than a personal attack to people on this forum for using it for its purpose, which kind of makes you the screaming belly-aching kid. Do you think that condescending comment made you seem more mature, or somehow better than the other people on this forum? Quit whining about people who whine. It clearly states on the side of the box of any marker "THIS IS NOT A TOY!"