AGD's Relply to the Wait on Xmags (long)

[AGD]

AO,

This is in response to to the many threads currently running about AGD's ablility to deliver product.

As the president of this company I have to look at the big picture. It is my responsibility to insure the survival and long term health of the company even before the wants and needs of the customer. Please note the words "long term". As an example, if we were making widget "A" and loosing money, I would have to raise the price IN SPITE of 100% complaints from my customers. From the companies perspective there is no difference between loosing money on a product or not selling it at all, which is what the customers might do if you raise the price.

There are only three variables when it comes to making a product, Quality-Delivery-Price. You only get to pick TWO! These three options are never clearly understood by the buying public. Marketing’s job is to make people believe they are getting all three. AGD as a company picks Quality and Price, we have never in our 16 year history been known for delivery, ask anyone. No one ever says “that’s way too expensive” or “that’s crappy quality” but they certainly complain about “AGD doesn’t make enough”.

So in the big picture (and we will use recent examples) what do I need to look at in order to make my overall business decisions? Lets start with the Superbolt! We came right out of the box with 1000 units, plenty for everyone so no one would wait. A problem was discovered and what did everyone say? No one said “hey great job on delivery!” there was a loud and clear bashing that “we came out with it before we tested it enough”. Our reputation for delivery went up ZERO and our Quality rep took a big hit. In order to shore back up Quality we had to do a trade in deal on all the old superbolts. This cost the company double to get out of that tight spot. Note to self, “better to wait than to rush because it costs twice as much to fix and they care about quality more than delivery”.

Lets move on to the ULE bodies with the detent issue. Now if that had been a slightly different problem and the bodies were unusable, we would have had to go to the bank and get a loan in order to trash the bodies and then make new ones. Note to self, “the more expensive the product, the more careful we need to be on the first few batches or else it could bankrupt the company”. I doubt many people would line up to buy a product that was non functional even at a discount price. At this point everyone has forgotten about the Superbolt and is back to complaining about delivery (good job Tom you are still scoring high on Quality and Price).

Moving further on lets go to Roller Triggers! Good quality, SUPER FAST DELIVERY and not a bad price! Sold the first bunch in a couple days so we banged out 1000 more and sold…….none. AO screaming for them one day translated into a dead item the next. Had to blow out the last batch to another manufacturer at a big loss. Note to self, “listen to AO but don’t count on everything they say as being true in the big picture”.

So finally we come to the subject at hand, the Xmags. It was never my idea to make the xmag body, AGDE came up with it and when the cnc version came out you all went wild for it. Of course you did because it was one of the hardest to machine parts in the history of paintball, that we didn’t design, made overseas, from a supplier we had never used before, on the most expensive product we ever made. Not a problem lets proceed. From the very beginning this is what I heard from AO “ I want an Xmag NOW but if AGD doesn’t get them out people are not going to wait”. Humm… based on the Roller Trigger above that means we could sell a few and then they could decide that the Matrix is better because they liked the movie. Thinking about the Superbolt fiasco these things better be perfect because we cant afford to replace them or we might go to the poor house aka ULE’s above. Thinking more about it, if we blow the quality (like on the ano) on our flagship product, we will never recover, if we raise the price….no can’t do that… its already the most expensive paintball gun out there. Ok only choice then is to let them wait, that’s what we have to do because our delivery rep can’t get trashed any worse!

Some facts about the xmags, we are currently 300 on backorder and its not going up. This is not a big backorder by any standards. We have 500 machined bodies in the pipeline right now. This is a prudent number in process for this level of backorders considering its such an expensive product. While AO has been complaining, there have been multiple dealers that have had these guns sitting on the wall and not selling. Adventure Games NH had the first 9 to come off the assembly line with no preorders. She wanted to cut it back to two but I told her to come to the AO dealers section and sell them. She did and got no takers in the auction she set up, she only took two. More were sitting at Predator Marketing in CA for weeks until an AO guy found them and bought them. This is even after I made a personal appearance out there to show them the marker and get them charged about it. Fox River Games home of our sponsored team Swarm had them sitting on the wall for weeks until AO found them there too.

In the grand scheme of things its not the dealers calling and placing orders, its AO voicing its opinion from the group that wants to have Quality, Delivery and Price all happen at the same time. While I can sympathize with your desires, the reality of manufacturing does not allow me or anyone else to make all three of these things happen at once. You have all made it exceedingly clear from your comments and actions in the past that waiting sucks but lack of quality is completely unacceptable. We still have the price variable that has not been tested yet. If we come up with some extra guns in this next batch I am going to put them in stock at some extremely high price just to say we have them. This is the only way to get rid of Delivery at the (increasing) expense of Price.

So AO I have to come here every day and read the gut wrenching complaints about delivery but I know based on the big picture that the long term successful strategy is to make you wait. I should see it as a good thing because that means or quality and price are on target, but that’s hard to do when people think its stupid when you don’t just magically make more. If it was a 5 dollar item I would gamble and make a bunch, fact is we don’t make enough profit on xmags to live off them so they are getting all the attention we can give them. For the reasons above I will restate that it is highly unlikely that we will ever be holding xmags in stock, if you can’t wait I apologize but that is just the way it is.

AGD

[dansim]

well put tom.

[gadget68]

Tom,
You are a businessman through and through, who also shows a really good understanding of his customers. Mr. Kaye, Product quality should be “first” in all good businesses. I wish, as a consumer, more companies took this into play rather than cookie cutting out poor quality items. Quality is an important attribute when dealing with consumer wants/needs. A reputable company may not always sell in volume. Let the products prove the point. I can't help but think of the vacuum company KIRBY. Mr. Kaye and the entire AGD family continue you tradition of honorable work ethics. Because, your products do speak for your company and they're telling the consumers "Experience, Innovation and Quality".

[paintballbeaver]

Well Put
you truthfully understand the public and the buisness, world its just, the public dosent get it!

[Smitty2k1]

Ouch, it seems we here at AO have let you down several times...

[Fatjon]

I think it is very well put out and true.

[56kSomeGuy]

Now I feel bad for complaining a little:(

[ddinwdc]

With all due respect, the examples given in that reply were not the responsability of the customer. It is not the cutomer's fault that there were defects in the super-bolt. It was not our fault that there were issues in the ULE bodies. Theses were quality control issues that should have been dealt with before they were distributed. As for the roller trigger and the apparent lack of interest in the X-mag, I must question AGD's use of this forum as one of the major tools it turns to gauge the marketplace. I understand that AGD is trying to give us AO'ers what they think we want, and that is admirable. However, it is poor marketing. I think the best policy for any future products is to keep them under wraps until they are ready for production. I'm not trying to be a jerk or pick any fights, but I think it should be ok to reply to a post, regardless of who posted it. And, for gosh sakes, as customers, we didn't let anyone down! AGD makes their living off of us (and I happily comply-they make a great product); it is not our responsability to "keep them up".

[brian terry]

very well said.all good things come in time.if you want quality out of the box go AGD if not go buy a gun you have to put more money into just to get it to work right.

[Ironlance7]

same here

[Duke Henry]

If there are 300 on backorder, and 500 bodies that are in the works, will that not mean that there will eventually be a surplus (assuming the backorder numbers don't rise dramatically)?

I will gladly continue to use my RTP until the wait for an xmag is a bit lower. Then I might pick on those babies up.

Everyone will complain about the wait until the quality drops, and then there is hell to pay.

[The Frymarker]

Tom,

On a small scale I know exactly what you mean and that is why I had to stop.

1. I couldn't keep up with the demand.
2. Customers wanted there grips the same week and have 30 orders in one week and try to get them all done is impossible.
3. Every once in a while I would get a customer who was unsatisfied and would complain, I would make another pair free of charge and they wouldn't like them either. Some people want a miracle for $25.

So I decided that it wasn't truly worth the headache, I'd rather be spending my time with my kids playing in the yard, than to stress about orders.

Sometimes I would work from 8am to 3am just trying to get on track.

Now I do have to say that I had have an over abundance of great customers that truly love the product that they recieved. I am very, very greatful to them. In essence they are not just grips but a piece of artwork that I spent a lot of time making. I hope they cherish the grips they have.

One thing I have learned Tom, you can't please everyone.

Maybe you should just call the new xmag coming a limited edition. That way you can can get away with only making so many.

[pbguy888]

All I have to say is - I love AGD , and love AO. I am so happy that TK has made this forum for us. I think its a privlage to be a member of this forum. Thats why I get mad when people flame , and diss AGD. They never had to buy this forum , keep it up , or tell us anything. But ya know what? They do it. I was going to sell my mag , and get an impy or viking or something. But not anymore. This post has put no doubt in my mind that AGD is THE best in paintball. Cant wait till I get my Xmag. If it takes a while it takes a while. I think its worth the wait to get the best paintball marker out there. And I think its uber smart to have the pre orders so there not gonna have a bunch of em sittin on there hands not gettin sold. Ok Im done now...
LONG LIVE AGD!!

[magman007]

THANK YOU TOM! Finally, some one has answered everything, and gotten every one to shut up, and stop complaining.


Tom, i completely understand your problems, and i understand why they are taking so long, if you look down, earlier today, i basically asked every one to stfu

[xadamx]

Tom:
What you said makes perfect sence to me. If I had the money i would definatly wait for one, for a long long time even. and gladly. but you know the story, im just a 17 year old kid and where is a 17 year old supposed to get that kinda green hahaha. anyway i just want to let you know that i support you and AGD

[fire1811]

umm
tom if you could stop all production of the xmag and
put 99% of your time to the clare posters that would
be grrreat :D

[battlegroup]

Quality is the biggest reason I have stayed with AGD since the first Mag I bought. I have waited almost a year for my X-mag, that barring delays will be here in 3 or so weeks. I don't want the company that I just bought a $1450.00+ gun from to gamble on increasing production and go out of business.

I also love the fact that AGD uses this forum to test new ideas. Do I need/want a digital thermometer on my gun...No but WDP has taken the time to put it there when they could have been working on something else.

My only complaint throughout the whole time I have waited is not knowing what the delays were. AGD has been O.K. at letting us know where the next batch is and how many but I would have liked more updates. I don't mind waiting, it's waiting and not knowing.

Tom, Thank you! I for one had no doubts about dropping the cash for an X-mag. Even though I have had to wait a long time I know it will be a quality gun with quality service!

[shartley]

For sure, you can’t please everyone. I am however proud to say that because I went with my gut instincts and did not rely on AO alone as a base for product(s) development and sales, I am expanding greatly and have more work than I can keep up with. I will actually be making my normal job into a part time job and making my products my main source of income.

I however am not rushing anything, nor worried about a few folks complaining that I am not producing my products fast enough. My customers know about quality and understand that sometimes you have to slow down and do it right. And I think that is what Tom is trying to put across…. A bunch of vocal AO members do not the Paintball Marketplace make. This is not a slam on AO Members, but a business fact. For example: I have a products that received lukewarm response on AO, yet I can’t make them fast enough for the general Paintball Marketplace.

And I have seen similar things happen with other products made by other companies… the AO response, and the paintball world response.

Tom must do what he thinks is best for AGD, and sometimes that is NOT listening to a very vocal, yet minority of the paintball community. If Tom does the right thing for AGD, the general paintball community WILL benefit from it. It is a win-win situation.

[nuclear zombie]

Thank You Tom!

You answered alot of my questions , this is why I will always shoot AGD .

Thanks
Kyle

[Evil Bob]

Tom:

Any chance on you posting the list of resellers that Xmags were shipped to? AO'ers in the area of the stores that received them could contact them to see if they have any unsold X's, I guarrantee that they will get sold in a matter of minutes once AO knows about them, we just need to know where they went to :)

-Evil Bob

[FutureMagOwner]

i think the problem is you get all your feedback from people who cannot afford these things. everyone is like my dream gun is an xmag. exactly its a dream they cant afford it.

[yeahthatsme]

thanks for the explanation, even though i never complained!

[Miscue]

I have to wonder if the desire for the XMag is mostly a style issue... as it has more features but does not improve the overall functionality of the already solid EMag.

I hope we see custom rails and slug bodies in an EMag package from whoever can make them... that rival the XMag's looks...

If so... then the sex appeal is covered... and the XMag becomes more of a collector's item that collectors are willing to wait for.

[krafty]

Tom = Teacher
AO = skooled

[cphilip]

very true dat! The AO community is a special place but it tends to exagerate the whole. Its a micro environment that we listen to but we tend to get tunnel vision and that is dangerous. Let me ask some of you out there that are complaining about not having one a few questions...

Do you currently have the money to buy one if I found you one right now?

Do you currently have a preorder in and did you place real ernest serious money down on one?

Did you notice the dealers coming on here that had them and they still took a few days to sell?

Did you know that some preorders went unclaimed and were turned down when they got the call? I even had a shot at one and was not home when the call came in. Someone else snapped it up.

If you were me and you were a dealer and you knew you had to wait on some and your customers might melt on you and you had to risk over a grand each on them for a while, how many would you choke up the money for? I currently have three on preorder and thats all the risk I want to take. I may NOT have any of them sold by the time they come. I hope I do and think I do but I have to risk it. I will take them anyway but I may be holding them a bit. I will not risk 10 of them. As you saw from Toms examples others may not either.

See the issues here? See the fact is there have been at least 20 or 30 people here that have not waited at all and picked one right up! But were you one of them? If not its because you were not prepared to move when they showed up. And how many of you will be ready next few weeks when that happens again? See?

Again, AO is a special place but lets not over exagerate its ability to equate into sales. Its a matter of money and who has it and when. And that is not always something you can get a good guage on here.

Let me give you another example. A few weeks back I bought 12 Halo B's cause everyone here said they were having trouble getting them. How many of them you guess would have sold from what you saw here? The fact is the last two took two weeks to sell. I had thought of ordering more then and maybe the demand is back up for 6 or 8 but it is not what you think it is. Its not 11,000 members buying. Its 8 or 9 of them. And you cannot guage sales from people gripping about them not being there. Cause when they are they seem to disapear. No money! :)

[Demobilized]

Eloquently put, and you didn't bother to beat around the bush.

Well, there you go guys, this is how its gonna be from here on out. So you might as while stop complaining and start enjoying!!

GO AGD

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I'm not complaining whatsoever..(and I personally hate when posts start out like this..it turns me off almost from the start)..but as far as some guns sitting at stores waiting to be sold...if they aren't up here on AO yelling at us that they've got X-Mags on the wall of their store; then they're just stupid. What you also have to realize is this is a very expensive marker (not the most expensive though..I've already owned one of the most expensive, a Cobra Mamba IR3..$1850) and we want a certain color or fade and well..we're not going to settle when shelling out as much money as an X costs for something we're not totally into. If you told me tomorrow a store had a blue/black fade X-Mag on the wall (hopefully matte) I'd be calling them all day long trying to get it from them but if I don't know the gun exists that's not my fault. I spoke to you personally regarding Adventure Games and you told me to wait it out, I contacted you again and you told me she cancelled. What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?

[Major Ho]

I was trying to find the thread so i could quote "stop nagging tom" but no luck. And here we are, Tom Kaye, president of AGD more or less says shut it, stop whining, stop complaining, and hold your horses. JUST WAIT.
Yall just made him angry now ;) Could be much more to say but this was basically I told you so. Stop the nagging!

[cphilip]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
If you told me tomorrow a store had a blue/black fade X-Mag on the wall (hopefully matte) I'd be calling them all day long trying to get it from them but if I don't know the gun exists that's not my fault. I spoke to you personally regarding Adventure Games and you told me to wait it out, I contacted you again and you told me she cancelled. What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?

I do but I do not ever know if the customers I thought I had in hand will still be there... So I have to take the chance that someone will want a particular fade. All on trust and speculation. Thats the hard part. That fade you mention I would take a chance on. Some oddball thing I will not. But as you note you would buy one if it came before one I could get for you. And so it goes! ;)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Would I buy one before I could get it from you, I would most certainly contact you if the prospect came up, but I don't see that happening..so I've pretty much planned on the fact that my gun is at least 2+ orders away..and that's fine with me..Cphil can tell you how I just check in ever so often to find out how much closer in line I am...I want my blue to black matte reverse fade X and really unless someone gives me a steal, which I wouldn't count on, I don't plan on taking anything but..

[cphilip]

Oh no I would not hold you to it if one came up like you wanted. But since I know you thats why you sit on my top three unit only preorder list. But heaven forbid you pass one up. I would expect you to grab it. There would be no hard feelings at all. These things are too hard to get to pass one up. And I would feel awefull if the one I ordered for you came back from anno all screwed up. So that is why I keep it open till I get the call and reconfim. I can move on down the line if need be.

But you guys are getting the idea now of what the dealers are dealing with with these? Uncertainty. And speculation. But its all good! :D

[Recon by Fire]

The general consumer expects to have prompt service when paying for it. Both sides are reasonable in their expectations. Maybe AGD could also look into a shorter wait list for those customers who prepay for them.

Until then I will just wait patiently on "the list".

[dmonahan]

My complaint is not that you have to wait for one. But that before I shell out $1500.00 on a marker I would really like to see how it works. I'm only play tourney's. Before I bought my Chipley they let me use it for 1/2 a day in Seattle. I have only seen 2 X-Mags on the west coast and have never got to fire one. Sitting at a store and firing air through a marker will not make me buy one. Heck I can cycle a electric spider fast in the store. I love AGD and the product but I wish I could get my hands on one to try a couple of games with. So I know if the marker fits me or not.

[Kevmaster]

Dirty...not to get personal...but you had one on preorder through me....i couldnt contact you and you wouldnt reply to my PMs and emails...so i dropped your Xmag...Coffey ordered one at the same time and his is at Anno right now

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by AGD
Humm… based on the Roller Trigger above that means we could sell a few and then they could decide that the Matrix is better because they liked the movie.

lmao! :D

[Frank (the spank)]

In response to none of them sold here in northern CA..

Well... YEAH!

You introduce a new gun that costs more than other proven guns and you expect them to sell out the next day?

The Xmag has built up a rep now and more and more people want them. Every review I read says it is simply the best.

Rome wasn't built in.... one day.. or something. :)

But still not everyone lusts for an Xmag, so.. make more.. sponser more BIG name teams.. THEN people will throw away those Timmys and E-Blades.. people need to SEE that it is the best, not look at pictures and read rumors "oh it chops.. they dont have any range.. they are made from aborted featuses.."

People need to see it in action, you need to win the hearts of the shop owners that all the kids idolize so they will beg mommy and daddy for one of them. It seems no one knows the performace of the E-Mag and Xmag.. to them it's a Classic with an E-Grip and nothing more...

I liked what Tom said.. made total sense.. but the simple fact is.. mags are not in favor. I never have people bash my E-mag, they just go "thats cool" "Neat" "Nice.." and thats about it.. they are set that E-Blades and Timmys are the better guns.. even though they have never picked up an Xmag.. and it's kinda hard to when there isn't any hanging on the wall.

I totally understand what Tom was saying.. it's a catch 22... like he said.. we just need to wait.

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
AO screaming or them one day translated into a dead item the next…Note to self, “listen to AO but don’t count on everything they say as being true in the big picture”.

This is just the wrong place to listen to for product demand. It is REALLY easy to post an anonymous message on a forum claiming that you just have to have something. That might actually translate into sales. It might not.


Originally posted by AGD
So AO I have to come here every day and read the gut wrenching complaints

Tom, you take us to seriously. It’s kind of nice to know that you really care about “our” opinions. Nice for “us” anyway… ;)


Originally posted by Miscue
I have to wonder if the desire for the XMag is mostly a style issue... as it has more features but does not improve the overall functionality of the already solid EMag.

I would have to say that is it entirely. You can make an Emag almost as light (if not as light) as an Xmag. I normally don’t care that much and I think the Emag looks good. But I have to admit that the CnC Xmag looks really, really good. That said, I have an Emag. :D

[jaylock33]

AGD quality - waiting still = :D

[Star_Base_CGI]

As someone who is out of work and living in a bad economy.
I feel that the fact that I can not afford an Xmag nor desire one prevents me from criticizing.

Id have to say if just anyone could start a buisiness and make it work, than everyone would be doing it. The fact is most companies fail the first year. Cutting lawns and fixing computers is easier said than done. You can find computers to fix. People will demand service. Getting paid a decent wage is another story.

Tom is just saying what everyone in buisiness has been saying since 1980. That having more stock in the building translates into more overhead for his company. Is that loss or taxable stock? 1000 roller triggers at $10 each would be $10,000 of non movable merchandise.

However, knowing Tom seems like a decent guy, trying to live his dream and coming here reading complaints makes me sad. The number one complaint I read, is that people have problems with Mags get discouraged and sell them. This puts alot of Auto Mags on the market. So Im not sure if they dont want to send them in for service or cant read the technical notes on the valve I just dont know.

The second problem I have read is people are having trouble ordering Xmags. Again I dont know if a deposit is not required and how the waiting list works. It would seem fair to ask for a deposit to get on the waiting list. Since the deposit would cover manufacturing and the rest of the payment would be Toms profit margin.

I dont know. My main problem these days is everyone says get a job. You go out and apply for jobs and hope someone hires you. You just cant get a job. If you have money you can get a degree, or food. You cant really buy a job though. If you have money you can start a buisines but you cant really pay sonmeone to hire you. Unless in the long run you go work for Mary Kay Cosmetics and thats not really cool if your a guy.

From my final perspective though it comes down to Supply and demand. AS long as Tom has less Xmags than people are buying hes okay. If tommorow people stoped Buying Xmags and he was overstocked than he would have a problem.

[Remington]

Mr. Kaye -

I must say that I for one am extremely happy to be one of the many proud owners of one of your products. It gives me great pleasure to be able to walk out onto the fields of play and look around at other people's markers and think to myself, "Wow, I own the best marker money can buy!" I look around at other people, sometimes new comers to the sport, sometimes returning veterans and more often than not, one or more of them has a problem with their marker. It gives me an incredibly good feeling to know that I can almost literally chuck my E-mag into the trunk of my car and not worry about anything happening to it.

I am proud, no, honored, that you take the time out of your everyday life to make an appearance on these boards. I know of no other place in paintball where you can talk to the president of the company, as well as other great people from the paintball world, and talk about industry, the sport, and other things.

I have learned from watching my dad run his own business that it can, at times, be very hard to fill orders that are specific to a customers needs. The fact that you do this and go beyond is nothing short of extraoridinary. In closing, I'd like to ask that you keep doing what you're doing, and despite what AO or anyone else may say, do what you think is best for your company, and not that of what the customer feels is necessary.

Sincerely,

John D.

[Jonesie]

Well I gotta say, in three years as an AGD customer I have had one problem. The order with my ULE body. I got a shipment notification email today, so my thread has been deleted and all is forgiven.

If you passed on an X-Mag and got something else, that's your mistake. I found an X-Mag and JUMPED on it! ZERO hesitation. :)

Dave

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Is it me or is he really pissed and he's just not trying to blow up on his most loyal customer base. Not that he doesn't have a right to be. I'd be pretty pissed if i bent over backwords to appease everyone and 50% of the time, they were complaining. But it's not like he could single out who they were because that would be unfair. He also coudn't generalize because most of us(the reasonable ones) weren't complaining about it like alot of the others were.

I think Tom Kaye is a man with the most patience i've never met. Or have met. If i were him, i would have sold this forum long ago. I think at one point, AO was nothing but beneficial. Lately, i really believe it's done nothing but hurt him. On the other hand, he was the one trying to get more and more people to come here.

Lastly, I have nothing bot appreciation and respect for Tom Kaye and AGD. They're the one company with sensibility and actually care about their customers to the best of thier abilities. That, however, i think is the biggest problem. Business is business. You spend to much time trying to make everyone happy, and you can't run your business. I truly hope that in the end, it doesn't ruin the only paintball company worth buying from.

[jayloo]

Tom...I am in awe. Your post answered a lot of questions and put to rest many rumors and speculations about AGD and its timeline.

I shoot nothing but AGD products because I KNOW they are pure QUALITY....nothing less.

[spacedtedybear]

I say we automatically put all the posts made by people who **tch and moan about the long wait for X-mags and put them into one single thread so that the moderaters can edit their posts and make them look like impatient
, and ungrateful SOBs.

[JT2002]

tom, i needed to ask you. when were the thousands of roller triggers made? all i remember is that one day i came on AO, heard bout em, heard you say you made a few batches, then suddenly they dissapeared. i was very interested in ordering one for my timmy, but i couldnt find it anywhere. i am in no way meaning for this to be a flame, but i was just thinking bout that. hrmm, got any roller triggers lying around?:D


oh, and anyone looking to buy a great condition tricked out classic timmy?:rolleyes: :D (Seriously! ;) pm)

[AutomagRT1483]

I have heard alot of what Tom is saying from Steve with Aerostar of Milwaukee (props going out to my dealer;)) I dont care how long it takes to get my X-mag, because when I get it I know its going to be the best marker I have ever owned, period. Thanks AGD!:D

[Mav D MagMan]

Thanks Mr. Kaye!

I really appreciate you keeping us informed and letting everyone know how the cow ate the cabbage.

I've noticed a lot of gripe threads lately and haven't really understood what it was all about, thank you for the insite as well.

You're doing a great job and I applaud your efforts (and obvious ability to run AGD right!)

Mav
(Loyal AGD Customer and Mag Lover)

BTW I wouldn't be too worried about those X-Mags, I'm hearing the name more often (outside of the AGD circle), and if all goes well they should get the jump in the main populace that you're hoping for. I know your average every day mag already has. Give it time, if it catches in South California, it'll be big soon enough ;)

[Frank (the spank)]

Anyone else think that streamlining would be a good idea here?

I work for Apple Computer (hey, I use to work for IBM and them Intel, so I have SOME credit, lol) and before Steve Jobs made his return the company was in the toilet. They had too many product lines and most of the time they got stuck with crap in their warehouses and had to sell at a loss. They then licensed it's OS to other companies.. what happened? They sold faster machines that were cheaper than Apples. Why? Streamline. They had a low, a mid, and a high end system. that was it. No "performa 2 3 556 678 and 4567" and then a completely different line with more shades of grey..

Steve Jobs came back... first thing he did was yank 3rd party licenses, 2nd.. streamline Apple.

Today there is the 4 square. We have a high end Desktop (PowerMac), a low end desktop (iMac), a high end notebook (PowerBook) and a low end notebook (iBook). Then three models for each, and the only difference is options, more ram, faster CPU and thats about it.

AGD... do the same! dump the RT and the E-Mag, make a low and a high and thats it.

Make some sorta ULE Classic, then an Xmag, and from there have color options and accessories.

Am I alone here in thinking that would be a good move? just a suggestion. I'll shut up now and go back to waiting on my front porch in the fetal position for the UPS dude.. (got aFlateline coming :) )

[dre1919]

While I appreciate the fact that Tom comes to the forum board and provides answers and insight as to what goes on at AGD, I still say "thumbs down" to his post. Sorry...but that's my thought. Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure they would), but I believe AGD has been around longer than WDP, correct? So, for whatever reasons WDP has risen to the top of the paintball world...they make a nice marker and they charge for it too. But, you know what else they do? They MAKE them...lots of them. I can walk down to the proshop here in town right now and buy one if I choose to.

I'm not trying to say WDP makes better markers and paintball equipment than AGD, since I personally love AGD products and have for a long time, but they are a good example of obviously doing something right. Now I've heard rumors they're somewhat unethical in their business practices, and frankly I don't care...that's their business. The fact remains they are a good product, and have the top slot as the most widely accepted "best marker in paintball." Seeing's how they've been around less time than AGD, that tells me they've been more agressive with their business practices.

I'm sorry AGD has such a problem with the public outcry for X-Mags, but honestly, what the hell did you expect? I mean, here you have a loyal legion of followers that love you're products...no wait, DEFEND you're products everytime we go to a field and somebody says "Why do you shoot a Mag, that's so old." All we wait for is a chance to have an AGD marker that's truly top-flight, not just supposed to be (hello, classic RT! I've got one, it isn't that hot.) Anyway, finally, our prayers get answered and we get the first glimpse of what could be...a sophisticated, yet simple marker with agressive milling and technology that rivals the top cat's (Angel). Finally, we loyal AGD shooters can get a flagship marker that rewards our loyalty...but then we get told we have to wait six months for one.

Then, we further get told the X-Mag will never be a full production marker, more of just a side show attraction or collectors item. Plus, we even have to go so far as hearing the President of our favorite company say he'd rather not make them in the first place because they're too expensive and whatnot. Well, hello Tom...$1500 is pretty damn expensive to lay out for a marker too but I wouldn't complain if one was available. I'm willing to put the cash on the line for one, why aren't you?

I have said from the beginning in any post I made on this subject, if you're going to be in the game, be in the game. The X is expensive to create? Deal with it. Go get loans, do whatever you gotta do because if you don't, the business end of the paintball world (the one holding all the cards) will call you're bluff and take you to the bank. My opinion is, if the X was too expensive to create and you knew the logistical support to create it en masse wasn't there, you never should have made it in the first place...or, you should have held it in secret until you had a bunch of them. I understand you don't wanna have a ton of them sitting around, then release word of them and have no one buy them, but that's business...risks. The one's you take and one's you don't.

The X would probably be one that would work out for you, but that might never be known since it'll never come out in great numbers. All that will happen is one day down the road you'll say "The cost to produce them got too high so we had to discontinue the idea altogether." Meanwhile, WDP continues to just crank out high end gun after high end gun. With the current strategy as it is, AGD will never enjoy more than a minor share in the overall big business world of paintball. If you guys are comfortable with that, I'm cool with it too. But I know I'd rather see AGD in WDP's place than them, simply because of the customer service and the quality products. Sorry ya'll, I'm not trying to bash AGD, but this is my opinion on the X issue.

[Blennidae]

I think there are 2 types of Xmag customers.

Type 1: The loyal AGD customer who wants the best of the breed.

Type 2: The "gun whore" (for lack of a better term). The person who wants the latest and greatest thing out there. Not looking for a long term commitment, just wants to be able to say they have owned an Xmag. Will sell or trade it for something else that catches their eye at the drop of a hat.

Who do you think complains the most?:D

Just my opinion.

[Recon by Fire]

Type 3: The brand new AGD customer who wants to buy a flagship marker after such good reviews from friends.

Guess which one I am? :)

[MinimagRockin']

Props, Mr. Kaye, on stepping up to the plate and answering honestly. Your explanation my not make anyone any happier about the wait but at least we know why now, which is what I wanted to know personally. As for all you guys with your lips planted firmly on Tom's *** in this thread, please knock it off, it's pathetic.

[Lopy-slopy]

The one thing I think you should stop doing is hypeing things so much so far in advance of their relesse. take the X-mag. AO knew about it like 6 months before it came out. People started to save up for them and get really horny for one. Then when they are rellesed they are told to wait 6 months as they are back orderd. After a while they deside they can get a nice matrix or angle right now with the money the have piled up for an X-mag so they go and buy it. If you had 500 X-mags reddy at realese they would sell like mad. Just work on your timing. Do some test runs, make sure they are perfect then see if theirs a big demmand for them. If their is make a lot THEN reallese them and you will sell more and more people will be happy. When something is first realessed it is all people are talking about. By the time you usualy have somthing in full swing the hype has died down and less people want it.

[damageinc54]

Tom, I still do not understand why you did not offer the X-mag body for sale seperatly like the ULE bodys. Sell it as an entire gun fine, but at the same time sell it as an upgrade kit to all the guys out here that already have an Emag. I went to Fox to pick up some practice paint and I saw the last X-mag they had. I even put some finger prints on it. It came with a 1450.00 price tag. How many guys really have the money to drop on one in a heartbeat? I would not even consider buying one unless I had already sold my current Emag. At the same time what would be the advantage for me to sell my Emag and buy an Xmag? The only difference between my current Emag and the Xmag is the aluminum valve, the body, and the anti chop eye that we dont need anyway with the level 10. The performance of my gun is no different from the Xmag. All I would get by swithcing guns is a differnt body and a few ounces off the valve. I am not going to take a loss on my current Emag and drop another 1450.00 on pretty much the same gun. I paid 1300.00 for my Red Emag and a 68/3000 Flatline. My team mate DJGruv bought his black stock Emag on Ebay for 700.00 brand new. The X-mag runs 1450.00 alone. I think the Xmag is way over priced. You could buy a new stock Emag right now, install a level 10 and a ULE body on it, and you have almost the same gun as an Xmag for a much cheaper price. I support AGD products, just look at my sig. It is my opinion though that the Xmag is overpriced, is taking way to long to produce, and offers very little in the way of an upgrade to current Emag owners.

[demonguy8]

Heres the problems I see with the Xmag and AGD in general

1. No pro team sponsorships....

2. No big ad campaigns..

3. Xmag is overpriced currently... Take an emag +ule body and you get ~1000 invested... The only thing missing is the ACE... are you saying an ACE + milling costs 500? If so your screwing yourself... Granted since the Supply is smaller than the current demand, its still a good business move to keep them at that price.

4. You took the opinions of the ~20ish people that said they wanted the roller trigger and translated that into: make 1000 kits.. Those 20 only mean AT MOST 20 gaurunteed sales.. It was not a good indication of market support since the people that didnt want one most likely passed the thread up or didnt reply..

5. The reason WDP is much more successful is because they dont sell straight to the consumers... They convice the retailers that the product rocks, and the retailers buy them... Risk is minimized for the intial seller. Their products dont have to be godly, they just have to APPEAR godly and the retailers will invest because they think they will sell...

[Yamz]

I know I dont post often I perfer to just read and get all the information that I can. That said I read most if not all the complaining post and all the we worship TK post both have a good point of view and both make valid points. At the same time neither stops to really look at what the others are complaining about or what the others are kissing Toms but over. Tom is only a man trying to run his company and yes he has to take chances. Before he takes a chance he has to consider the PROS and CONS of taking that chance. In the case of the X-Mag he picked a form of middle ground he relased something he did not have to relase at all (being that the design is AGD-E) but he did not make a all out jump into it. Look at it this way you see a lake on a hot day and think that a swim in it could be fun. You could just say nope to dangerous, you pick the middle ground and slowly walk on in, or for those of you who want to take large risks just dive on in. now lets look at what happens the people who pass it up will never know what they missed the person who gets in slowly finds that it real shallow and with jagged rocks everywere and before hes hurt can pull back out the person who dives in finds out the water is too shallow and with many jagged rocks as his head is smashed and neck is broken. The X-Mags cost more than your everyday person is willing to spend. why make tons of $1000+ markers when the majorty of people are still shooting markers that cost less than $200. i for one would have not made a surplus of the X-Mag

Now that everyone has started to form their opinions of me let me just say I am on the pre-order list Via logic paintball and I have already given Logic the money for it when the time comes. I am not going to just jump on the next X-Mag that shows up with no owner because I dont want to screw the dealer I have my order with.

[shartley]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
If you told me tomorrow a store had a blue/black fade X-Mag on the wall (hopefully matte) I'd be calling them all day long trying to get it from them but if I don't know the gun exists that's not my fault. I spoke to you personally regarding Adventure Games and you told me to wait it out, I contacted you again and you told me she cancelled. What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?
I think this is a bit unfair. It is also a bit uninformed about most Real World Paintball Shops. Adventure Games is by far not a small operation when looking at real world paintball shops. And they move a lot of product.

So, you are blaming a marker NOT moving off the shelves on THEM and their inability to “get to the customers that want them”? They don’t sell online, and because they have OVERHEAD, which a good many online stores don’t have (thus can’t compete on prices). So they rely on standard walk in sales, which SELL the other products just fine. They are not in the business to PUSH a product, but to sell products that sell.

My point is that you can’t turn around and blame a dealer for not trying to scour the earth for someone to buy their products when they already have plenty of customers on hand buying products from their shops. When I want a product, I usually have to do some research MYSELF and see who has what. And never have I been contacted by a muffler shop, tire shop, paint shop, etc. for a product that I might have wanted to buy. LOL SHAME ON THEM! ;) Heck, you should see the hoops I go through to buy my supplies for MY products.

I will say however, that Cynthia at Adventure Games did post about the X-Mags being available on their old forum (not there now, they have a new forum and she has not posted all sales and stuff on it yet)…. And guess what? No one even cared. I would say that if you offer the product a spot on your wall, and post it on your site or online forum, THAT is doing all a Dealer should have to do. And if you can’t move the product after doing that, it is up to the dealer to either carry the product in large numbers, small numbers, or not at all.

This is not a bash on the X-Mag or any other product, but a simple business statement. It can be applied to any product and be equally correct. There are many reasons a product may or may not move, and many times it has nothing to do with getting the word out, or the product being a “good” one or not. And Adventure Games is not an anti-mag place… in fact they are PRO Mag. But if a product is not selling…. You get the idea.

I have a feeling that once the X-Mags get out in larger numbers, they will create their own interest, and help increase their sales. And the wave will come back…. The spring buying wave was taken by the other companies, but another will be coming along. And hopefully AGD will be there ready to catch it. :)

[50 cal]

The long waits are from the ridiculous colors customers are requesting. Make 'em like Henry Ford did....You can have any color you want as long as it's black!
You get the kids with thier "I want it purple to pink fade with smiley faces all over" finish and yeah it's gonna take time, lot's of time.
I work in the firearms industry, if you want custom, take it to a custom shop.
You make a killer product Tom, you just agonize over what some people think too much. Yeah, satisfy the customer, just don't go broke over it.

[G-Rock]

GO GET THEM TOM KAYE, YOU ROCK MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man I love it when tom comes up and says what he feels, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside!

Quit your complaining, I waited for mine and it is worth the wait!! You will not be disapointed, trust me, I know.

Plus what are you going to get in return, an Angel (only thing that might compare), a Timmy (suck, just a souped up spyder), an impulse (heck twice the height of a mag), or a Ebladed cocker (still got to time the dang thing, and that is a pain in the arse), so what would you get to replace it.

Nothing is can replace the quality and reliability you get with the X-mag.

So shut up and wait on it. Man!!

Tom I appreciate what I have, thank you bro!!

Chris Geiger

[steveg]

Sam, I don't think Dirty is being unfair at all, If Tom is
aware of dealers with "dead" products, on one hand and
on the other hand has a bunch of (apparently ungratefull whiners)
people clamouring for that same product,
(and HIS product to boot) than it seems a dis-service to both his
dealer, and his and her potential customer, to not introduce each to the other.

Want to bet that Tom's offhanded remark about that one
maker doesn't result in it's sale by the end of the week.

Oh and Tom, lay of the tiresome anti-Matrix remarks it
does nothing for your credability.(Happy mag and Matrix owner)

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by Blennidae
...Who do you think complains the most?:D Type 1, without a doubt. They are the folks with the most invested (non-monetarily) in the marker.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by dre1919
My opinion is, if the X was too expensive to create and you knew the logistical support to create it en masse wasn't there, you never should have made it in the first place...

Did you actually read Tom's post? The whole problem with the X-Mag is that AGD DIDN'T make it. AGD Europe created the Extreme and X-Mag, people spotted it, wanted it and then suddenly there's huge demand for X-Mags in the USA - however the people who actually produce the bodies do so only on a scale sufficient to supply demand in the UK/Europe.

I believe AGD Europe is actually an entirely separate company (Powerpulse) to AGD 'proper' and that either they, or the company who designed the milled body, own the rights to the design.

AGD-US have no way of producing the bodies themselves and no way of controlling who manufactures them for AGD Europe. They have to sit and wait for shipments from Europe and then colour, assemble and test the full markers.

I'd be willing to bet that Tom wishes the X-Mag body had never seen the light of day - as AGD would have been far better off shipping standard E-Mags with ULE bodies/rails/grips and X-Valves - all components that they can control the production of.

[shartley]

Originally posted by steveg
Sam, I don't think Dirty is being unfair at all, If Tom is
aware of dealers with "dead" products, on one hand and
on the other hand has a bunch of (apparently ungratefull whiners)
people clamouring for that same product,
(and HIS product to boot) than it seems a dis-service to both his
dealer, and his and her potential customer, to not introduce each to the other.

I would agree that matching up dealers with buyers is a good thing. But that is not how I read DB’s post. It seemed like he as blaming DEALERS because they are not finding buyers for the products.

What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?
This is clearly putting the blame of the product not selling on the dealer not knowing how to “get to the customers that want them”, not talking about Tom finding out what dealers are not able to move his product because the buying public in their area simply don’t WANT them (for either price reasons, or other factors). And that is what I was saying is unfair.

Again, it would be great if there was a database with all dealers and what markers they had, and AGD could direct folks to them… however, you run into problems such as:

- The appearance of showing favoritism to one dealer over another.
- Having to keep the actual sales of each dealer updated… living nightmare, and too much of a hassle for dealers.

And I am sure there are other problems that would come up as well.

Sure, the Auto Industry has a system similar to this, but for THEM it is worth it simply for the numbers of cars made and sold and the PRICE of each unit moved.

But honestly, it is not really the job of the store to find buyers for each and every product on their shelves. It is their job to make sure folks know the store is THERE. If the product does not sell, that is not the fault of the store (unless they are purposely pushing other products). And I know that places such as Adventure Games have no shortage of customers. I have never been to their Manchester, NH Store where there was not at a minimum a steady influx of a handful of folks at a time. And their Park Location even on slow days sees sales of actual game related products (squeegees, packs, pods, etc.) and the customers see a wide range of other products as well.

If DB knew Adventure Games had them, or had them on order and didn’t contact them because Tom suggested he wait, that was DB’s decision. I have no idea why Tom would tell him to wait, because I was not privy to their conversation, but that was still DB’s decision. If it was me, I would have probably at a minimum sent them off an e-mail and asked about the product anyways. But again, I was not privy to their conversation and don’t know the particulars…. nor really care to know. It is none of my business.

Like I stated, Adventure Games did not hide the fact that they had the product. They even posted it on their online forums. So what I am saying is that aside from that, they should not be required, or even expected to do any more. It is up to the buyer to find the product they want to purchase. And like I said about the supplies for MY products, I spent MONTHS researching and contacting tens of companies to find the one that had exactly what I needed and at the price and availability I required.

I am not slamming DB for his opinion, or post, I am just looking at it from another perspective and posting my views.

[luke]

Tom,
In regard to X-Mags hanging on the wall of your dealers shops, until someone from AO finds them should have rang a bell. I don't remember you ever listing dealers that MAY still had them in stock. It seems to me, you could have relieved some pressure by simply listing the names and phone numbers of your dealers that could possibly still have them. (You still could ;) )

[luke]

Sam I didn't see your last post before I submitted what I did. So in response to " Again, it would be great if there was a database with all dealers and what markers they had, and AGD could direct folks to them? however, you run into problems such as:" This could be done by simply listing names and phone numbers. I don't think it would be necessary to list available inventory

[shartley]

Originally posted by luke
Tom,
In regard to X-Mags hanging on the wall of your dealers shops, until someone from AO finds them should have rang a bell. I don't remember you ever listing dealers that MAY still had them in stock. It seems to me, you could have relieved some pressure by simply listing the names and phone numbers of your dealers that could possibly still have them. (You still could ;) )
This would be great! But….

http://www.automags.org/resource/links/stores_fields.shtml

And that is on THIS site. And if you walked over to the AGD main site, you will see that they have a whole list of dealers with links to their actual sites.

http://www.airgun.com/dealers.shtml

And if someone really wanted to see if they HAD a specific product, they could take a couple minutes and look for themselves.

Now, to expand on that… Tom posted this…

Adventure Games NH had the first 9 to come off the assembly line with no preorders. She wanted to cut it back to two but I told her to come to the AO dealers section and sell them. She did and got no takers in the auction she set up, she only took two.

This showed that not only did THIS dealer put on her own forum (as I have stated) that she had the product, but actually posted about it HERE on AO. ;) What more do folks want?

Now don’t get me wrong… there are other issues about this that buyers have valid issues on, but they don’t have one about not knowing what dealers are selling them. Sometimes the buyer has to step up and do a little leg work themselves. And by no means have the Dealers been kept a secret, or been unable to contact… all someone had to do is look... and then ask them. ;)

[steveg]

Sam one of the things that I personally would not do is
participate in an auction especially for a new retail
product, given the lack of response, others might have
thought on similar lines.

As you mention cars, one of the neat things about buying
cars in Canada is that dealers are not allowed to sell
above MRSP. what this means is that when a new model comes
out there is no price gouging. I bought my 92 MX-3 new
within weeks of it's N.A. introduction at MRSP and not a penny more.

The intent of an auction is to see how much people are
willing to pay, My bet is that people didn't respond
because of the uncertainty and disapointment of not
winning and the possability of paying more that necessary
for it (the marker)

certainly a dedicated buyer should do some leg work
but at the same time is not obliged to pay "Any" price

I get the impression that Tom knows many of the dealers
personally, that would suggest that keeping track of
limited high-end marker sales a bit less odious;) and be
consistant with the "personal touch" that AGD is reputed to have.

[dre1919]

Originally posted by Gadget


Did you actually read Tom's post? The whole problem with the X-Mag is that AGD DIDN'T make it. AGD Europe created the Extreme and X-Mag, people spotted it, wanted it and then suddenly there's huge demand for X-Mags in the USA - however the people who actually produce the bodies do so only on a scale sufficient to supply demand in the UK/Europe.

I believe AGD Europe is actually an entirely separate company (Powerpulse) to AGD 'proper' and that either they, or the company who designed the milled body, own the rights to the design.

AGD-US have no way of producing the bodies themselves and no way of controlling who manufactures them for AGD Europe. They have to sit and wait for shipments from Europe and then colour, assemble and test the full markers.

I'd be willing to bet that Tom wishes the X-Mag body had never seen the light of day - as AGD would have been far better off shipping standard E-Mags with ULE bodies/rails/grips and X-Valves - all components that they can control the production of.

Have you actually read your post? First of all, I doubt AGD Europe is an entirely seperate company and even if they are, fine, it only proves my point even more. If Tom Kaye saw the body and said "You know what? That's pretty cool but it's gonna be the hardest piece in paintball to mill properly and I don't really have the resources to make it happen", at that point he should have walked away from it. He should have came here and said "AGD Europe has this cool body you can get for your E-Mag, so talk to them if you want it." Or, he could have completely left it alone and never said anything...only directing people AGDE's way when they fielded him questions about it. However, this is all irrelevant since he didn't do this...what he did was come out with this hype about the gun as though it was their new "flagship" marker (see front page of airgun.com). We always want the newest, best thing so it became common belief that this marker was it and that made everyone want one.

My point from above is, you can't come out with something more revolutionary than anything else your company offers, especially in front of your most loyal customers (AO Members) and not expect a heavy demand for it. Then, to make it worse, his post makes him sound as though he's complaining about us complaining about it. Gee, I'm sorry...I'd love to have a modern, technically superior AGD product that rivals the Angel because right now we (AGD customers) don't have one. So, in summation, if you're going to make a super product...make the damn thing and let's get on with it. If you're comfortable staying in the market share you already have, fine...stay there. But don't tease us with something many of us have been waiting for for years and then dangle it in front of us for six months. That's BS.

[luke]

SAM,
Shows what I know and how much I "surf"! :D To be honest I've never seen those two links, but I've never looked either.

What I don't understand is there's X-Mags available, people are screaming for them, but, for what ever reason the link between buyer and seller is not being made. You can put the blame on what ever you like, but it still wont fix the problem. I'm merely trying to point out that perhaps some other approach should be made, regardless of who should be doing what. It may NOT be Toms responsibly to help advertise his dealers stores, but if it increases sells what could it hurt. By that, I mean names and numbers not inventory. I'm sure his dealers are greater in number than the links that you posted. There is a solution, it just needs to be found. :)

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by dre1919


Have you actually read your post? First of all, I doubt AGD Europe is an entirely seperate company and even if they are, fine, it only proves my point even more. If Tom Kaye saw the body and said "You know what? That's pretty cool but it's gonna be the hardest piece in paintball to mill properly and I don't really have the resources to make it happen", at that point he should have walked away from it. He should have came here and said "AGD Europe has this cool body you can get for your E-Mag, so talk to them if you want it." Or, he could have completely left it alone and never said anything...only directing people AGDE's way when they fielded him questions about it. However, this is all irrelevant since he didn't do this...what he did was come out with this hype about the gun as though it was their new "flagship" marker (see front page of airgun.com). We always want the newest, best thing so it became common belief that this marker was it and that made everyone want one.

My point from above is, you can't come out with something more revolutionary than anything else your company offers, especially in front of your most loyal customers (AO Members) and not expect a heavy demand for it. Then, to make it worse, his post makes him sound as though he's complaining about us complaining about it. Gee, I'm sorry...I'd love to have a modern, technically superior AGD product that rivals the Angel because right now we (AGD customers) don't have one. So, in summation, if you're going to make a super product...make the damn thing and let's get on with it. If you're comfortable staying in the market share you already have, fine...stay there. But don't tease us with something many of us have been waiting for for years and then dangle it in front of us for six months. That's BS.


You doubt AGDE is a seprate company? well...you're wrong. It is. AGDUS has no holdings in what goes on at AGDE. Why did Tom have to start selling XMags from AGDUS? Because they have a non compete clause where AGDE is not allowed to sell to the US market, nor is AGDUS allowed to sell in europe. So If i called AGDE today asking for an XMag they would say, yup we have 7 in stock, but sorry, we cant ship to the states. I would have to know someone in Europe to buy it for me, then have them ship it over to the states...quite an expense once you add in the 17.8% VAT tax....

The X-Mag is a HUGE hassle for AGD. But they have it where they want it. AGD does not WANT to have X-Mags sitting on the shelf (for better or worse). They dont WANT to have htem sitting in stock at AGD (although when it comes to complete markers, AGD goesnt keep much of anything in stock)

The E-Mag (now with ULE Grip, ULE Body, ULE Valve) Doesnt compete with an angel? Get outta here. whats the difference in the E-Mag and the X-Mag...pretty body, ACE(although unneeded with Level 10--something the angels dont have)....um....um....about half a pound? The E-Mags can SURELY keep up with hte Angels. No doubt about it. I owned a PTP EMag and kept up with those angel owners just fine in my tournys...


finally...do you know how much of a risk it is to preproduce the 1000 plus X-Mags it would take to have them readily available at its release? especially when AGDE can only give us 30 per month? It would have taken YEARS to make that supply, and they would have had to sit while more were being made. Its not fiscally sound to do that. When AGD can only get 30/month...they only get 30/month....

[dre1919]

Originally posted by Kevmaster

You doubt AGDE is a seprate company? well...you're wrong. It is.

Hmmm...that's very interesting...I wasn't aware of that. As I stated before in my post, "correct me if I'm wrong" and someone did. Cool.



The X-Mag is a HUGE hassle for AGD.

That seems like a problem between AGD and AGDE then.



The E-Mag (now with ULE Grip, ULE Body, ULE Valve) Doesnt compete with an angel? Get outta here. whats the difference in the E-Mag and the X-Mag...pretty body, ACE(although unneeded with Level 10--something the angels dont have)....um....um....about half a pound? The E-Mags can SURELY keep up with hte Angels. No doubt about it. I owned a PTP EMag and kept up with those angel owners just fine in my tournys...

Yeah? That's great. I keep up just fine with my Classic RT with a Hyperframe on it too, but I'd like something newer and nicer. There are a few points I could make here, and in the interest of not starting a flaming war I won't, but the fact remains that the Angel is regarded as the top marker in paintball. Period. This is opinion and perception, I know, but what I'm saying is the X-Mag could challenge it's spot. The E-Mag hasn't and never will... If you're happy with you're E-Mag, yay for you...personally I think they're heavy and ugly. They look like an RT with a battery pack.



finally...do you know how much of a risk it is to preproduce the 1000 plus X-Mags it would take to have them readily available at its release? especially when AGDE can only give us 30 per month? It would have taken YEARS to make that supply, and they would have had to sit while more were being made. Its not fiscally sound to do that. When AGD can only get 30/month...they only get 30/month....

Not realizing AGDE is a seperate entity and AGDUS is at their mercy impact's this point a lot, as I stated above. I was under the impression AGDUS was creating these, so that explains a lot.

[madmatt151]

I understand completely with the problems of business. I don't think the majority of the people complaining necessarily are complaining about the business practices of AGD, but the availability. I know personally I would love to see more AGD products in my local stores. I see none. When I go to my fields, people look at me like I am weird for using a MAG, and I am fine with that. Being a crazy car guy I can always compare car trends with many other things. I enjoy having a car that no one else has (or wants), even though it is a high performance car that is fun and great to drive. Does this mean I will call Ford and yell at them to make more and advertise, no. I would love it if more people knew about the car and appreciated it, but if not oh well. If AGD is content with the market they have then fine. If all of you expect Tom to make more X mags just so you can show off to the Angel owners out there, well, get realistic. If he wanted the market to be flooded with X magss I am sure he could do it. It seems he wants it to be a limited run, so fine. I persoanlly was upset at the unavailability of some of AGD products, but after reading Tom's post I understand more the mindset of the company. I owned a 1998 Z28 and really wanted an SS, but the availbility and waiting list made it a bit more expensive and unavailable than I could afford. I couldn't even imagine calling, emailing or posting to the President of the company and demanding they ramp up performance so I could have mine for a specific date. They would tell me exactly where to go! Tom is trying to be accomodating to us because he knows there is a demand, but be realistic people. If there was a REAL demand for these Xmags, the office would be getting phone calls from dealers and regular people all the time, probably like WDP does. Does this mean the WDP has better PR, maybe. Does this mean that Tom necessarily wants the same kind of market share as WDP, not necessarily. I kind of like the fact that the Xmag is a bit of an enigma, and may not be readily available. It makes it a bit more desirable. If it was as readily available as an Angel or Matrix, then it would just be another overpriced marker. Now we have a high end marker, and seeing as some of use enjoy owning High end stuff, this is a nice niche for AGD to be in. Sure there won't be dozens of them at the fields, but you will be different and some day soon, awed! It is the reason why people like me will wait until I can afford a high end stereo instead of the same old same old Sonys, Kenwoods, etc. Be proud of your AGD stuff, enjoy the smirks and gawks you get for owning them and have fun with it. Tom, roll with the punches that come with owning a business and hopefully the presense of a "high end" marker will spark business for you and keep you going strong.

Just my $.04, post was long :)

[fire1811]

well put madmatt151

[The Frymarker]

Oh I forgot I can actually go on a larger scale than my grips.

I know exactly where Tom is coming from.


My husband and I designed a vest for scenario paintball players. It cost us $150,000 dollars to make 5000. We had a bunch of people from the start that wanted them, we called every where to sell them.

Something that everyone told us was a great idea became the worst mistake we could ever make.

We had advertising, sales, everything. The vest went no where. When I look back on what we invested to make this product work and what we got back was futile.

It got to the point where we were actually just giving them away to family and friends.

I know exactly where he is coming from.

Think of it this way my husband said the mark up on markers isn't that high, producers maybe make a 1/3. So if a marker costs $1500, $1000 to make they make $500 off of it. Now think of it Tom made 300 to begin with cost $300,000.

That is a heavty chunk of change to just go on will they buy them? Now he is making another 500..... 1/2 million invested on promises to buy.

Now let's just say they go no where, he can only write of a percentage of that as a loss on his taxes.

These are just examples not truths I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but having come from making products on our own and what you really make from them, I truly feel for Tom.

I think Tom is just trying to let everyone know, hey this is where I'm coming from.

[shartley]

Originally posted by The Frymarker
Oh I forgot I can actually go on a larger scale than my grips.

I know exactly where Tom is coming from.


My husband and I designed a vest for scenario paintball players. It cost us $150,000 dollars to make 5000. We had a bunch of people from the start that wanted them, we called every where to sell them.

Something that everyone told us was a great idea became the worst mistake we could ever make.

We had advertising, sales, everything. The vest went no where. When I look back on what we invested to make this product work and what we got back was futile.

It got to the point where we were actually just giving them away to family and friends.

I know exactly where he is coming from.

Think of it this way my husband said the mark up on markers isn't that high, producers maybe make a 1/3. So if a marker costs $1500, $1000 to make they make $500 off of it. Now think of it Tom made 300 to begin with cost $300,000.

That is a heavty chunk of change to just go on will they buy them? Now he is making another 500..... 1/2 million invested on promises to buy.

Now let's just say they go no where, he can only write of a percentage of that as a loss on his taxes.

These are just examples not truths I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but having come from making products on our own and what you really make from them, I truly feel for Tom.

I think Tom is just trying to let everyone know, hey this is where I'm coming from.
Nice post, but honestly… who cares?

Now, before anyone bites my head off, let me explain…..

EVERY company, person, or whatever, has a risk in making a product. EVERY company, person, or whatever has to decide for themselves if they are going to put in the investment to make the product, and hope it sells. THAT is business.

I am sorry to hear your vests did not sell. They sound like a great idea. But it has nothing to do with Tom’s situation. Why? Because he is in a different situation. And he has already professed this product to be the Flagship of his line.

As for how much Tom has to spend to MAKE the product…. That does not matter to the consumer, nor SHOULD it. What matters is if the final price for the product is what the product is worth to the consumer. What the manufacturer makes off of it is totally irrelevant. That is something the manufacturer needs to determine if they can live with, not the consumer. And if they can’t… don’t make the product. It is that simple.

I don’t know a single company worth their salt that can say they never lost money. It is the overall track record of a company and its products that matter in the big picture, not just one product (unless that is all the company makes). Heck, I am a small business, but does anyone actually think I make money off of ALL the things I make? How about a set of wooden grips? Sure that is “small change” compared to the big numbers being tossed around here, but to someone NOT made of money, it is all relevant.

Buy all the equipment needed. Buy a nice piece of Ebony (heck any wood), put in over 10 hours of hands on time in carving and finishing. Now do the math. Think I make money? LOL Even less so on standard domestic wood. 10 + hours of work for $45 (or so)? Oh yeah! I am going to get rich that way! WooHoo! ;) (NOTE: This is NOT 10 + hours of product time from start to finish, like in casting products and cure times, it is HANDS ON time.)

So, the answer is to diversify. Have some products that are able to offset the costs and income ratio. This is basic business here, nothing special.

I agree with folks that people just need to wait for the product. But much of the other arguments being brought up are simply not relevant to the issue (IMHO). They are simply part of doing business and manufacturing, and can be applied to ANY product. Tom knows this, and anyone who makes and sells products do as well. But you can’t come back and say “But so much money is spent on the product… etc. etc. etc.” and expect people to care. Because they should not care. It is not their responsibility to care. It is the manufacturer that needs to care. Just like with any other product, be it cars, houses, plumbing, etc.

While we can sit back and discuss all the intricacies and finer points of the process (of investment, manufacture, and sale of a product), they are simply not relevant argument points to be tossed at the consumer. Now, lags in production of parts by3 parties, R&D times and processes, and the like are good arguments to present for a delay in production… not how much it costs to make an item.

[The Frymarker]

Nice post, but honestly… who cares?

Sam, to be honest, I have had it with you. You are such a mindless blow hard.

I guess everyone else can have their views and opinions on this forum but when it comes to me you seem to have a problem.

I wish you the best with your products when and if they ever do come out.

[shartley]

Originally posted by The Frymarker


Sam, to be honest, I have had it with you. You are such a mindless blow hard.

I guess everyone else can have their views and opinions on this forum but when it comes to me you seem to have a problem.

I wish you the best with your products when and if they ever do come out. You conveniently took one sentence that is CLEARLY not meant to be taken out of context (read the next line), and want to act all hurt by it. That was not my intent.

Heather, I don’t think I was rude to you. If you thought so, I apologise.

I thought I laid out a good argument that costs were not a relevant issue for delays… which was the main gripe by some folks on AO.

As for what you think of me personally, if you feel I didn’t have a valid point state so and why. After all that is exactly what I did. I didn’t comment on you personally, nor ever have on AO. That would cause sides to be drawn because folks would feel the need to stick up for either party… and that is not needed.

And as for my products ever coming out… strange thing to say since I already sell my products, online and in actual stores. I don’t know what your intent for that statement was, but whatever…..

[The Frymarker]

blah blah blah

[shartley]

Originally posted by The Frymarker
blah blah blah
LOL

[The Frymarker]

LOL

Coming from the KIng of Last Words

[rpm07]

For no dealers ordering them. I have been is stores and ask about them and they look at me like I have 3 heads. I have to tell them all about them. If there was advertising for AGD products there mite be some orders.

[Tron]

Originally posted by The Frymarker


Coming from the KIng of Last Words

Think you could do a little better with the come back there.

I rarely agree with Sam and usually have problems with his posts but I actually agree with him here. God forbid you have to many customers and they want to spend their money and buy your products... I remember you saying you got out of the grip business because you had to many customers and some "mean" ones. Then you complain you didn't have any customers for your vests. From the description it sounds like a normal business and maybe you just weren't cut out for it.

-Tron

[Tron]

Originally posted by rpm07
For no dealers ordering them. I have been is stores and ask about them and they look at me like I have 3 heads. I have to tell them all about them. If there was advertising for AGD products there mite be some orders.

Same here. I went into my local store asked about an AGD Flatline. Even asked if they could order it there and I would pick it up. They thought I was talking about some barrel system. I finally explained it to them and they said they would look into it.

Then I bring my mag in there (RT Pro) and I still get the cockers are more accurate, they sound like nail guns, or they just suck with out a valid reason. Rogue gets the same treatment but probably more so because I have a Timmy and a cocker so I guess that gets me off the hook a little. :D

When the LX came out, I was all happy and brought it in and they said cockers did the same thing with LP. I was like um stick ur tongue in the cocker see what happens.

When the Xmag came out I talked with them about it and I get the deer in the headlight stare. Even if AGD can't get them out and will never have them reach more then 50-60 a month maybe a flyer will do them some good and will educate the stores. In return for ordering them AGD could post the phone number, location and web site of the store on a seperate Xmag dealer page. I am glad the info is on AO but I never saw the link with the info on Xmags for sale, or I would of picked one up instead of my Timmy.

I would even be willing to get you flyers at cost...

-Tron

[JT2002]

Originally posted by G-Rock
[a Timmy (suck, just a souped up spyder
Chris Geiger [/B]
OMG ignorance!:rolleyes: i am all for mags, heck i used to own one, but thats like saying a mag is just....

a souped up blowgun :D :rolleyes: lol

[crankydan]

I think there are many good points made here. I also think that the originator's plan was to explain the company's situation not his personal feelings. Its not the consumer that is at fault for the demand, its the manufactures for not meeting the supply. Why not just leave it at that. Its like a company saying, "hey we don’t want your money to pay our employees". As far as not making money on the X-Mags, wow, I really find that hard to believe. I am confused about just who "owns" the rights to AGD! If the UK will only ship 30 per month, then have them made in Japan. Ever hear of Makino, 5 axis milling machines, they make them. I bet they would be glad to pick up such a offer. My point is, its only good business to met the demand with supply, or people will go somewhere else to spend their money. That includes me. I look at things like this very hard when it comes to me shelling out 1500 bucks just for the marker. There is nothing that upsets me more than seeing "OUT OF STOCK" for MONTHS. You might call that smart business practice, I call it greed.

[ddinwdc]

the X-mag. If the demand is not there and it causes such discord among customers and companies (AGDUSA/AGDE), remove it from the product line. To be frank, there isn't enough differentiation from a ULE mag to justify its price anyway. Its a great first effort, but it needs to go back to the drawing board. First, the battery MUST be redesigned; infact, the whole grip frame is incongruous with the beautifully sculpted body. Secondly, are removable breaches really worth the extra money and headache? I mean, there seems to be two types of people: those that hate the warp and those that love it. Those in the first camp FAR outnumber those in the second. If the warp doesn't sell that well (as stated by TK), then why go to all the trouble to design a body that meets the demand of both? The bottom line is the warp was an idea ahead of its time, but time has caught up with it. HALOs and others now meet or exceed the performance, and if AGD doesn't see fiscal incentive to redesign it (as stated by TK), then what's the point? Use the lessons learned in this fiasco to build a new, AGDUSA designed and approved X-mag--and don't tell us a thing until its in the stores! But until then, meet the demands for the ULE products, which clearly DO have a strong market; too many resources are being wasted on a product that doesn't sell at the cost of those that do.

[Dayspring]

To that I say

BAH!

[Blazingace]

I read Tom's post and soime of the others, but not the whole thread. I don't care whether I know all about AGD stuff before it comes out or not. I also don't mind waiting for a gun that I think is the be-all-end-all of guns. I love the X-mag, with unrivaled passion. No, I am not kissing Tom's ***. I bought an original Superbolt. This forum is a special resource that flows both ways. Tom and AGD can get a feel for what the players want and we get to see spiffy new stuff before it comes out. If you don't like to wait or you don't think that the X-mag is worth it, go somewhere else. I think that it is. It is a beautiful no nonsense, no bells and whistles caning machine. If you complain about the gun then it is probably not what you are looking for. For the rest of us we can wait and get what, we feel, is a well thought out, well designed, well constructed gun.

[ddinwdc]

I love it. What do you think is going to happen when people start taking that advice? No X-mag, no Emag, and no AGD. Telling people to "go somewhere else" is a very bad idea, and I am dismayed that AGD would promote suggestion as a real option. "You have to wait for quality, everything else sucks". Sorry, but that lists right up there with cockers shoot farther and straighter; its AGD's own brand of hype. There are alot of quality markers on the market, and they get bettter every day. Keep telling people to go somewhere else, and you know what? They just might do that. And as far as quality is concered..."cough" first batch of ULE bodies "cough" superbolt "cough"

[Creative Mayhem]

Tom, I for one don't have a problem waiting for a quality product, which by the way, AGD excells at. Once my Xmag is made I will have to wait yet again for it to clear customs and te border and then shipped.. all told about 2 weeks :rolleyes: I applaude you on your willingness to look at everyone's complaints and try to wiegh the pros and cons of the situation, so what if people are *****ing about waiting. They KNOW the are getting the BEST the paintball community has to offer, so why worry? Like I said, I've been waiting for my Xmag, I don't have a prob with that, what i do have a prob with is poor quality and price. If you have an item for sale at some ridculous price for poor quality no one will buy again. Here you have the most advance piece of PB hardware ever made, it takes time to manufacture, if people can't understand that, then let them go buy another piece of equipment(we ALL know they WILL be back)

My .02

CM

[Dayspring]

For every person that doesn't want to wait, there are others to step up and take his spot.

And Tom himself said that the Xmag will always have a wait- forever and ever until the end of time. Just the way it is.

So if you don't like that, you can get the Emag which is their mainstay marker. Same performance, almost half the price. Then, when the backorders are filled, you can get the upgrade body for the X.

-Edit-
I took out a mean remark about one of my "favorite" people b/c I don't want to sink to his/her level.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by shartley
I thought I laid out a good argument that costs were not a relevant issue for delays… which was the main gripe by some folks on AO.

the problem im seeing is that you didnt seem to take in exactly the point of view that she has and imediately tossed it out. she is giving her own experience because she identifies with what is happening with tom and telling everyone what happens when they listen to what people SAY they want.

frankly sam, I feel like you always give yourself way too much credit to yourself as an embassador for people(which is what your doing in this situation). and if this is all some kinda ploy then i hate you both;)

[ddinwdc]

because it was uncalled for to attack someone who was just giving their opinion, as you have in the past. Rather than "sink to my level", you often drag me to yours. And you knew I would make you pay for it, just as I have made you pay every other time we have clashed. You simply can't hang mentally. Anywho, if you read Tom's post, clearly people ARN'T "stepping up" to fill their spot, despite all claims to the contrary.

[Blazingace]

I'm sorry. Did you not read the whole thing? Maybe you can only read the smaller, simpler words. If you don't like it no one is forcing you to buy it. If you check my sig. you will see that I own an Impulse also. I have had 2 cockers in the past. I have shot nearly every gun under the sun and I like alot of them. The Matrix springs to mind. I like AGD quality. The Matrix is not only somewhat inefficient, it also has a less than stellar maintenance record. Cockers are great as long as you don't screw with them. How many people do you know do that? The E-mag is the sweetest gun I have ever shot. My Imp, the Matrix and E-class cockers are all close seconds. If you piss and moan about the wait to get an X-mag then you don't want the quality or you don't feel that that is the best gun for you. If you want you can spend 1500+ on a Dark IR3 if you like. I, personally, would wait for the X-mag because I have shot IR3s and they didn't suit me. Its not to say that the IR3 is not a sweet gun, its just not for me. What I see are mostly, maybe not all, a bunch of whiny rich kids that want the latest and greatest because they can. If its yesterday's news is not what they want. Some of these people have never shot a 'Mag before let alone and E-mag. Screw it. I believe in AGD quality, speed and dedication to its customers, but I understand that it is just a business and people gotta eat. I buy AGD becuase I know all these things and that attracts me to AGD as much as any expensive gizmo or new fangled dodad.

[hitech]

To those of you who think that AGD should not have produced the XMag unless they could keep up with demand:

How is it hurting AGD to have a back order of their top of the line marker? Don't answer with they could make more money if they had more. Do you know what the extra costs would be in producing more products than you currently have customers for? YOU don't like the fact that you have to wait. I contend that it is NOT hurting AGD's business to have a back order. AGD may have lost a few customers. Less that 1/10 of 1% I'm guessing. I'm also guessing that they gained more than that with the XMag. And they can sell every single one they make WITHOUT having to inventory them. Sounds like sound business to me.

Internet demand does NOT translate into hard sales. So far I have only seen two people who would buy one right now if there were more available. Since this is "internet demand" it is likely that one of them would back out if they were actually available right now. The demand just isn't as high as some think. "EVERYONE" claimed that the Z-Grip would sell hundreds if they were just available. Remember when Tom found some? What happened? Some of them sold, but some of the same people who said they would sell like crazy started complaining that they weren't "intelli-feed ready". YOU CAN NOT JUDGE DEMAND HERE ON AO. It really is that simple.

[shartley]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner


the problem im seeing is that you didnt seem to take in exactly the point of view that she has and imediately tossed it out. she is giving her own experience because she identifies with what is happening with tom and telling everyone what happens when they listen to what people SAY they want.

frankly sam, I feel like you always give yourself way too much credit to yourself as an embassador for people(which is what your doing in this situation). and if this is all some kinda ploy then i hate you both;)
I can understand that. But that was not my argument. My argument was that you can’t blame the cost it takes to MAKE something on its being delayed. I never stated that it is not an issue for a manufacturer to think about and weigh before making a product… in fact, I think I even mentioned that in one of my other posts.

My argument and disagreement is that the cost paid by the manufacturer is not an arguing point for delays… only whether the product is made or not. And honestly, I don’t think the average person cares how much something cost to make, they care about what it costs THEM. LOL Is it, or is it not, worth the money they are asked to pay for it. And that has nothing to do with the time they have to wait for the product.

I am not setting myself up as an ambassador for anything. I am simply stating what I feel the general public feels (and I am one of that general public ;)). If folks think I am wrong, by all means say so and argue the issue. But whether I am right or wrong, that does not mean I should be called names for it.

Again, I AGREE that how much a product costs the manufacturer to make is a valid issue on how much they charge for it, or even make it at all. I agree, that listening to one very vocal group without taking into account many other things can get a manufacturer in trouble (and even stated so earlier). But I don’t agree that any of that has a darn thing to do with any delays a product may have.

500 pieces or 5000. Do people actually think 5000 pieces will be made FASTER than 500? One can argue that the cost per piece will be reduced for the manufacture (when buying from a 3rd party), but the speed of it being manufactured should not be reduced as well. And this reduction in per piece cost for the manufacturer can be passed on to the consumer… absolutely. But the big gripe was not the end price, but the availability of the product all together. And that is a totally different issue.

I honestly think that the average consumer walking into a Paintball Store could care less how much money Tom put into making the product (or any company with any product). They also don’t care how many were made. I feel what they care about is the actual cost, if it is worth the price to them, and that it IS there to buy.

This is not a slam on the X-Mag, AGD, Heather, Myself, heck anyone. It is what I think is the simple truth in manufacturing and sales. Folks may disagree with this and I welcome them to state their opinion… on the matter… not me personally. ;) After all, that is all I did.

[Dayspring]

1) I took it out b/c I decided it was mean spirited and yes, took me to your level.
2) I would have been polluting AO with your negative attitude AGAIN- therefore I took it out.
3) This is Tom's thread and this kind of Bs wasn't needed. Therefore, it got removed.
4) You have YET to "make me pay" ANYWHERE on AO.
5) I'm not the one who was warned to shape up before being banned. Let's remember that.


Originally posted by ddinwdc
because it was uncalled for to attack someone who was just giving their opinion, as you have in the past. Rather than "sink to my level", you often drag me to yours. And you knew I would make you pay for it, just as I have made you pay every other time we have clashed. You simply can't hang mentally. Anywho, if you read Tom's post, clearly people ARN'T "stepping up" to fill their spot, despite all claims to the contrary.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
I love it. What do you think is going to happen when people start taking that advice? No X-mag, no Emag, and no AGD. Telling people to "go somewhere else" is a very bad idea, and I am dismayed that AGD would promote suggestion as a real option. "You have to wait for quality, everything else sucks". Sorry, but that lists right up there with cockers shoot farther and straighter; its AGD's own brand of hype. There are alot of quality markers on the market, and they get bettter every day. Keep telling people to go somewhere else, and you know what? They just might do that. And as far as quality is concered..."cough" first batch of ULE bodies "cough" superbolt "cough"

Oh for gods sake will people PLEASE learn to read statements how people intended them rather than getting all cranky and defensive.

'Hype'? Eh? The guy was doing people a favour by basically saying "I'm sorry, the wait isn't going to get any shorter, so I'm not going to BS you and give you false hope" and yet muppets like you decide to take that statement as proof that the company doesn't care about its customers?

Personally I'm a 'glass half-full' person, while you seem to be a 'glass? glass? what goddam glass?' person. Get a grip.

[rpm07]

Lets start by saying this tread was a post to tell about the delays in the Xmag and no it turned into a bunch of old *****s complaining about each other. Can we mabey get back on track.If it is not someone with there head so far up AGDS rear it is fight between members. I think the Xmag is a great gun and should be made alittle faster. I dont want to wait but I mite. If you need 1 rite away look around they are beeing sold used and if I didnt just spend a ton money on a laser level for work I would have bought the 1 that was just on ebay and only sold for $1200.00.
So they are out there if you look.

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by shartley
I am not setting myself up as an ambassador for anything. I am simply stating what I feel the general public feels (and I am one of that general public ;)). If folks think I am wrong, by all means say so and argue the issue. But whether I am right or wrong, that does not mean I should be called names for it.

well the way you speak comes off to me as what you believe to be what everyone thinks. is that your intent? maybe, maybe not. i think the reason people end up having a problem with you is because of that kinda feeling you give off in what you say and the rashness of it kinda sets them off

[shartley]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner


well the way you speak comes off to me as what you believe to be what everyone thinks. is that your intent? maybe, maybe not. i think the reason people end up having a problem with you is because of that kinda feeling you give off in what you say and the rashness of it kinda sets them off
I understand. That excuses everyone else’s actions. ;)

“Well miss, I know you were raped but if you had not worn that top and your jeans were not so tight, let alone that smile you gave him…….. “

Blame me for my actions and words, not other people’s. That is all I ask… and I am sure everyone else would want nothing less for themselves. If I am allowed to state what I think others might want, who knows, I may be wrong. ;)

I think the whole issue should be dropped. I am currently not upset about any of it…. it was a misunderstanding, and not from my end. It is over.

[Wayne]

Tom,
I tottally agree with you. I had to wait a year for my Xmag and when I finally got it I was very pleased. It is one of the best guns I have ever shot. I have always shot AGD and will continue to shoot my xmag even if you didn't sponsor us. I know that when I purchase AGD I will get a quality product. To those that have not gotten one yet, please wait it is the best gun on the planet. Tom will be back on top of the industry in no time with this marker. Once again Tom thanks.

[ddinwdc]

with "bs", then why even elude to a negative remark you had made about me? Why not simply delete it and leave it at that? Classic passive-aggresiveness, the sign of a true coward. Still waiting on that number, Nick; don't make me have to find it.

[Dayspring]

Told you- you want my number? Buy me dinner first.



Originally posted by ddinwdc
with "bs", then why even elude to a negative remark you had made about me? Why not simply delete it and leave it at that? Classic passive-aggresiveness, the sign of a true coward. Still waiting on that number, Nick; don't make me have to find it.

[hardr0ck68]

i have been on AO for over 2 years, and i read and followed many of the forums for another 2 before becomming a part of this community. I seriously think that some people have signed on this forum not to be part of a Mag's owners group but to be part of a paintball forum. hey thats great, but some of these people bring alot of un-wanted negitivity to AO that never existed when i became a part of this forum. Many of the old timers just ignore it, and while i may not have as much senority as them i really see no need to ignore it. I enjoy the wait for the X-mags, that means when i get one people will know that i must have really wanted it (as i do) if you do not want one bad enought to wait then get a e-mag and a sluggo and save yourself $400. If thats not an option then buy an angel, or beter a nerve or shocker or impulse and then you will see exactly why AGD is worth the wait. so my advice to anyone who can not wait, GROW UP AND STOP CRYING GO BUY SOMETHING ELSE AND HANG OUT ON THEIR OWNERS GROUP
(sorry for the novel)

[FooTemps]

Amen, TK. People don't realize how much of a pain it is to work on increasing production when you work a smaller outfit than other companies. I haven't owned a company or anything but I have done a couple scenarios in my old school.

For all those people out there saying "MARKET MARKET MARKET!"... Where is AGD going to get the money to sponsor a big team, put up a huge ad campagne? You can't just hand an xmag to a team and tell them to advertise for you. You can't just make an ad and then tell a magazine to put it in your pages. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL THAT CRAP.

All that crap you want to pay for might increase pre orders but then there's the issue of keeping up with those orders. Yeah, increasing facilities... That means you'd probably need to spend huge sums of money to increase what you have now. I think that a cnc to mill a C&C xmag body is around... half a million dollars. That's for one machine... What about leasing new facilities? What about new staff? What about buying rights to the C&C xmag body? What about other machines needed to mill the other parts? Do you get my point? There's going to be a lot of spending to increase production and demand. AGD isn't a big company with tons of machines working in house around the clock. They aren't a WDP or WGD... They get parts from suppliers and then assemble them. I'd figure the process isn't near as fast as other companies.

People in paintball are full of bull sometimes too. I mean, there are people who say "I want this!" and "I definitely will buy that!". Would you trust those people and produce to meet those demands to find that they were all talk? AGD is playing it smart. There are tons of people who are all talk out there that will probably screw you over if you listen to them. For example, AGD's roller trigger crisis... They listened to a lot of people talk... (okay maybe about 70 to 100 people) and they figured they'd sell a good margin of them. The first batch sold out fast, so they made a bigger batch... This time nearly no one bought one. That means 50 of those 70 people were all talk.

Meh, I'm done...

[JT2002]

man i cant keep reading this, i aint (sp?:rolleyes: ) no english teacher :D man u ppl keep writing essays lol

[nuclear zombie]

The fact of the matter is , Tom Kaye really has no control over how many X-Mags get made right now , it was created by AGDE . I understand that it can be frustratiing when you are taking heat for something you can't control, but don't want to say its someone else's fault when they are doing everything they can to help you out .

Having such a low supply , and such a high demand usually isn't considered good buisness , but AGD isn't your usual company . AGD does have a tendency to over-engineer it's products , it sometimes leads to longer build times but results with a product that will withstand what most other paintball guns never could .

Like Tom said the x-mag wasn't designed for everyone , most people will be just as well off buying a ULE bodied , e-mag for about half the price of an x-mag .

[aaron_mag]

Typical engineer! So sensitive about his mechanical creations. :)

I can understand where Tom is coming from. It would be gut wrenching for me to have to read some of the stuff on the forum about delivery as well. What amazed me the most was how one minute we were singing Tom's praises about Level 10 then we quickly switched to back stabbing him about delivery issues on the Xmag. I'm still in awe of Level 10 every time I gas up my marker. It has been a vocal minority that have been complaining. Most of AO seems satisfied with everything we have been getting (with my Level 10 and new ULE body I've got everything I was hoping for!)

[Frank (the spank)]

heh heh... the grip makers are fighting.

[ddinwdc]

I think most of us could care less about the X-mag or its availability. Few can aford the price, and even less think it offers substantially more performance over what we already have. We do, however, want ULE products, and we want them to be available. Make more ULE stuff, make sure you keep it IN STOCK and don't sweat the X-mag.

[manike]

So nobody want's Ferrari's when they can buy a Fiat (or Japanse imports) that are just as fast huh? The fiat will get me to work just as quick, carry my luggage (which the Ferrari might not ;) ) so why go for one over the other?

Why buy a Purdy? over a browning?

Exclusivity and rarity have value. I don't care if you can't afford it or don't want to wait. This product isn't currently for people like that.

Just the fact it's known to the market is a good thing for AGD.

Other than here at the 'fanclub' do you know how people react and what happens when you talk about mags? The X-mag is changing that, and it's changing opinions of people who will never own or have one. But ultimately that's good for AGD and their long term future. Heck I'd say it's vital.

You think the sales of Lexus don't have knock on benefits to Toyota's? You think Audi sales doesn't have an effect on VW sales?

So many people with so much more to know and learn. Very few people here really know what is going on at AGD and AGDE.

[Dayspring]

Tom came into chat late last night and talked about all the fun ULE stuff he's coming out with.

[ddinwdc]

Toyota doesn't produce Lexuses at the cost of Camerys; they know where their bread is buttered. Are there waiting lists for a 550 Modena? Sure. Are their waiting lists for a Fiat? Absolutly not, you just go to the dealer and drive it home. Top-end models get people in the door, but the tactic only works when you have the minivan on the lot and ready to sell after the customer is finished drooling over the sports car. Your analogy is sperious, sir. This isn't an issue of the value of the X-mag (that is a whole other discussion), this is an issue of AGD's inability to deliver a variety of products that its market is hungery for.

[manike]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Toyota doesn't produce Lexuses at the cost of Camerys; they know where their bread is buttered. Are there waiting lists for a 550 Modena? Sure. Are their waiting lists for a Fiat? Absolutly not. Top-end models get people in the door, but the tactic only works when you have the minivan on the lot and ready to sell to the customer after they are finished drooling over the sports car.

You just proved my point perfectly. Thanks :)

X-mag which is more expensive and waiting list = Get's em in the door.

E-mag and normal mags which are cheaper and available = get sold.

Thanks for such a great reply to prove what I am saying! If only now you could read what you wrote and understand it...

[ddinwdc]

and don't know what is going on here in the States. Yes, the Emag is available, but you know what? THAT ISNT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! We are talking about AGD's new line of products like the ULE body. Sold out in less than a day and has been out of stock ever since. When are they going to be back in stock? Who knows? I've heard two weeks, which, coming from AGD, could mean two months, five months, etc. I think I clearly implied AGD's lack of stocked product in my (more appropriate) analogy. Perhaps a few remedial reading comprehension courses would do YOU some good.

[manike]

I'll give you a break since you obviously don't know what you are talking about or that the discussion here started out about the X-mag. (see the thread topic, or maybe take some of the remedial reading classes you seem to know so much about).

Also swearing and cussing at me really won't help the points you are trying to make.

edit: nice to see you edited out most of the offensive remarks. :rolleyes:

[ddinwdc]

Manike, you got to work on that comprehension problem of yours. The second sentance in Tom's post is (drum roll please):

"This is in response to to the many threads currently running about AGD's ablility to deliver product."

[Dayspring]

You have finally proven yourself to be the troll we all think you are...

Manike is the guy who actually came up with the Xmag body. He came up with the Parameters for the milling program. He is also one of the most respected members on AO. If there's ANYBODY you listen to on AO outside of the AGD staff, it's Simon. He said it last night, along with Tom. There are 3 people who know about Xmag construction- Tom, John Sosta from AGD-E and himself(Manike).

Secondly, It's math time. Tom produced about 150 ULE bodies in the first batch. We have 11,000+ AO members that knew about them. Somehow, I don't think that works out... You have to understand that AGD doesn't have the capital to just make TONS of items that may or may not sell. Thats why things are done in batches. Like the Xmags. Like the X-Valves. Like the ULE items. If they invest TONS of money in them and they don't sell, Tom's stuck with inventory that won't move. He loses money. He loses too much $, say goodbye to AGD.

As for your Intelliframe question- if you're really interested, PBX has two blade black ones in stock. I'll be happy to pass you on to them.

Lastly, you do not add anything positive to the conversation, nor to your general surroundings. When you can string together two coherent and intelligent thoughts, let me know. We'll throw you a party. (I won't hold my breath though.)


Originally posted by ddinwdc
and don't know what is going on here in the States. Yes, the Emag is available, but you know what? THAT ISNT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! We are talking about AGD's new line of products like the ULE body. Sold out in less than a day and has been out of stock ever since. When are they going to be back in stock? Who knows? I've heard two weeks, which, coming from AGD, could mean two months, five months, etc. Black intellis? Sold out. When are they back in stock? X-valves? I think I clearly implied AGD's lack of stocked product in my (more appropriate) analogy. Perhaps a few remedial reading comprehension courses would do YOU some good.

[manike]

Please sit down and get comfortable while I tell you why the X-mag affects the ULE.

First, the ULE would never have happened if it wasn't for AGDE and the X-mag.

The importance and need for aluminium bodies to save weight, that could be milled and customised via anno, was the whole idea and concept from AGDE. I was part of one of the first ever discussions with AGD about how this should be done... oh 6 years ago? when on a visit to AGD with John Sosta. It was AGDE making the X-mag that kick started AGD into doing the ULE bodies so others could upgrade and have a 'cheaper and more accessible version'. You will be interested to know that John Sosta was also the first to start cutting rails and bodies down to make the guns as small and light as possible. John is an avid tourny player in Europe and he in conjunction with John Bonich (and I daren't forget Jackie) are responsible for a lot of the development guidance of the AGD product range.

The X-mag showed the potential of such concepts and AGD has now developed it down to a product which is available to all.

People come in the door because they see the very stylish (yeah I'm biased :) ) X-mag. And some can wait and afford one, but many can not and so decide to get an e-mag, or decide to buy ULE parts, or whatever but at least they are being exposed to AGD again. They were never in a position to buy an X-mag, but because of it's image and reputation amongst those that can, they are instead buying other products from the same company.

It's very much like formula 1 racing. You will never go that fast, you will never afford a car, but due to it happening and people seeing new ideas and concepts, your car becomes lighter and more economical with nice features such as paddle shift etc.

Dayspring, I'm not going to take credit where it's not due, I didn't come up with the X-mag body (in terms of the original one) I 'just' did the 3d modelling, C&C body design and milling.

I never EVER designed the C&C body to be as successful as it has been. It was supposed to be a 'limited edition'!

I designed it to get attention back to AGD and their products, and oh my god has it done exactly what I intended and more. I regularly get people telling me how much they like it. Look at all this talk about it! It's getting attention. AGD is being noticed, now they just have to keep that attention and use it to sell products.

If I'd designed it for mass production and huge numbers so every one could have one... I'd of designed it differently.

ddinwdc, you are going to hate my next gun... there are only 5 of them being made EVER... and they are already taken :D but it will put another marker in the ground for what is possible and what may be more common in the future...

[ddinwdc]

I could care less. You zealots treat these guys like rock stars or something; very strange. Anyway, I think my posts are full of coherent, intelligent statements. You may not like what I have to say, but they are concise arguments with good points that have yet to be rebutted. A look at your responses, however, reveals a myriad of problems, both in structure, logic and grammar. Now, regarding your latest pathetic attempt to insult me: don't worry about holding your breath for me; you don't need to. I will accept your unwillingness to address the issues I have outlined as an acceptance of defeat.

[steveg]

ddinwdc, you are going to hate my next gun... there are only 5 of them being made EVER... and they are already taken

Oh so now it's 5, first you said there was only going to be
1 for you and 1 for Bill! Bugger!:mad: ;)

[manike]

Steve,

There is going to be a show gun for AGD and one for AGDE also. :) I hope it doesn't end up attracting too much more attention :D :D :D

[manike]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
I will accept your unwillingness to address the issues I have outlined as an acceptance of defeat.

And next will you be sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la I can't hear you?"

:D

[ddinwdc]

Really, you didn't even bother reading what I said, did you? My contention is not with the X-mag or its availability--I don't care! My problem lies with AGD's inability to supply much-sought-after upgrades! Congratulations in your proof of concept; you don't need to educate me on how advances are made or the trickle-down effect. I just want to be able to purchase those advancements when they finally reach the rest of us! You can build markers that will never see the hands of the average AOer until the cows come home, but please make sure that you have the upgrades we are clamoring for in stock!

[ddinwdc]

You ignored Tom's quote I posted ; will you admit that you were wrong about the nature of this thread? Apparently not. So who is sticking their fingers in their ears now?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Manike, you got to work on that comprehension problem of yours. The second sentance in Tom's post is (drum roll please):

"This is in response to to the many threads currently running about AGD's ablility to deliver product."

DD, kill the attitude or be gone. Good thing you edited your post before I got here. Show some respect.

[ddinwdc]

I didn't know that "attitude" had been added to the list of things to be censored. I thought this was a forum where people could express their opinions. If you look at my posts, that's all I've been doing. If anyone has been disrespectful, it has been some other members who-rather than engage me in intelligent debate-call me names. If you guys don't like what we have to say, then why host a forum?

[manike]

ddinwdc, I take it you did read the rules where it says that no cussing is allowed? along with 'no disruptive behaviour' and flaming? Just in case you didn't here is a link http://www.automags.org/chat/forumfaq.shtml I believe that if the text is too small for you, you can change it under 'view -> text size -> large' to aid reading :) If you cuss at me again I won't even bother to read future posts of yours.

If I had to rebut every wrong post and opinion you have stated and keep, repeatedly, pointing out what you are missing, I would be spending more time on your opinions than they are worth in my opinion :) I'm not going to keep repeating myself or trying to shout louder than you are. I used to play those games with my sister when I was a kid and realise the futility of it.

This thread and others were started because of the wait for X-mags. Yes there are other issues with product which should be addressed. I'm not argueing against that. But when you said most people couldn't "care less about the X-mag" I thought it needed pointing out just how wrong you were, and why the X-mag is phenomenally important to the general market place, not this forum and those few people here clamouring for upgrades and parts. There is a much bigger and more important picture than the vocal few here who like to exercise their rights on a forum to whine and moan when they can't get something as quickly as they want.

Yes they should be listened to, to an extent, but they aren't as important as they would often like to think they are.

AGD is NOT going to survive simply by selling to the members of this forum. Something you alluded to in your first post here and that I agree with.

[Dayspring]

You're funny...

And I did address your issue.


Originally posted by ddinwdc
I will accept your unwillingness to address the issues I have outlined as an acceptance of defeat.

BTW- In case you haven't realized, you're not making friends the way you are. I think it's time to re-examine your strategy here before Cphil or one of the other mods treats you to an extended AO vacation.

[RamboPreacher]

All I know is that the Xmag is what brought me back looking at AGD products again, and the LX bolt that kept me here.

A decade or so ago I was an AGD user and just didn't stay because of the paint-blender effect. I never looked back untill recently (thanks for the reintroduction, Manike)

Honestly, I heard about the xmag before I heard about the new bolt innovations. When I saw pictures of the Xmag, I started looking again at the AGD products and that's how I discovered teh LX bolt. (and it's integration in the Xmag).

I now have half a dozen AGD markers (compared to none, only a half a year ago, and contemplating the acqusition of more), and though none are my "primary" markers, this is/may be changing, and a decade of familiarity with other producs needs to becom overcome or not.

[Wc Keep]

this has turned into a dd bash agd thread.

tom you shouldnt have to come on here and tell the masses why its taking so long. your LOYAL customers know the hold up and are willing to play with their emag until the xmag comes out.

dd ill respond to you quoting tom. when tom makes something, he wants to make something that is considered perfection. to do this takes time. unfortunately the ule parts are not the only thing agd works on. they are having problems getting the 4500 flatlines out. there are people out there who are in the same boat as you with the flatlines. they want it and have to wait. now tom can make them not wait but agd will be flooded by flatlines returning for being faulty. same with the ule bodies. do you honestly want something, or even the chance that there is wrong with your ule? if you do im sure tom can supply those ule's next week.

[Rebel46_99]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Manike, you got to work on that comprehension problem of yours. The second sentance in Tom's post is (drum roll please):

"This is in response to to the many threads currently running about AGD's ablility to deliver product."

Actually... This is the very FIRST sentence in Tom's post. The subject of which is, to borrow your line (drum roll please...) The wait on X-Mags. Tom used the other products to prove his point on this subject and you used them to start your tirade. And we won't discuss your grammatical and spelling errors. :rolleyes:

As a personal note.... Were you my customer, I would tell you to take your business elsewhere since you are obviously unhappy with anything that happens here.

DW

[ddinwdc]

Why don't you address my "grammatical errors"? I would thoroughly enjoy watching you try. As for Manike, if there is so much interest in the X-mag, then why -- according to Tom -- aren’t they selling? But I digress, because I'm not even arguing with you about that issue. I told you, I don't care how many super-special, secret-club, limited-edition mags you build--just sure you can deliver the other products in a timely fashion and in adequate quantities. I completely agree that AGD should be designing for non-mag users. That is why it perplexes me that they have limited advertising and use this forum as the primary gauge for market demand and product design. And finally, I didn't cuss at you, I called you a name, something that others have done to me many times here. It was uncalled for and I removed it the second I posted it(without any passive-aggressive mention of an edit, Wang). As for "disruptive behavior", I fail to see how expressing an opinion could be viewed as being disruptive. These things get ugly when OTHERS start attacking me for my views. I am simply defending my position.

[manike]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
And finally, I didn't cuss at you, I called you a name,

The word you used is a very abusive cuss word here. Don't use it if you aren't familiar with what it means.

[shartley]

Originally posted by manike


The word you used is a very abusive cuss word here. Don't use it if you aren't familiar with what it means.
You YANK!

Close? ;)



(I didn't see the word used, but you said very abusive cuss word there. ;))

[Dayspring]

How many times do I have to tell you. The Wang thing isn't an insult. It's actually kinda funny that you think it is. ;) (you'd know more about it if you were here longer than 56 PITA posts.)

Do some homework-- http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57438&highlight=Wang+Force

As for passive-aggressive... I'm not the one who comes out calling people "tough guy," wanting somebody's phone # just so he can get owned in person, and being a general nuisance.

I think Freud himself would say "You have issues."

I'm done. No more. (And don't think of my silence as a victory on your part. We know how you get confused with that.) The fact that you insult friends of mine (Manike) is proof that you aren't worth any more of my time. Keep this attitude on AO up and you won't be on AO much longer.


Originally posted by ddinwdc
(without any passive-aggressive mention of an edit, Wang).

[ddinwdc]

use whatever words I like, sir. But really, is all this minutia necessary? I simply stated my point in a discussion that I did not start on a thread I did not author. Why all the hostility towards one person's opinion? Its not like I come on here and start threads with titles like "AGD sucks" or "'Cockers rule". I come here for information and, when prompted, give an opinion. I am a loyal AGD customer who has purchased thousands of dollars of goods from them. If I complain, its because I care. You people complain about PBNation, but I must admit I have never once been flamed on that board and have never recieved the kind of personal vitriol that I do here. Maybe its not them, maybe its you.

[ddinwdc]

its just plain aggressive. There is (an admirable) difference.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
I didn't know that "attitude" had been added to the list of things to be censored.

Censorship! Again that word....

Read your user agreement and stick to it. And for now I will add "Attitude" next to your personal list of things to live up too. Cursing aside.

[Dayspring]

It's the way you treat other people we have problems with. Not your opinions.


Originally posted by ddinwdc
use whatever words I like, sir. But really, is all this minutia necessary? I simply stated my point in a discussion that I did not start on a thread I did not author. Why all the hostility towards one person's opinion? Its not like I come on here and start threads with titles like "AGD sucks" or "'Cockers rule". I come here for information and, when prompted, give an opinion. I am a loyal AGD customer who has purchased thousands of dollars of goods from them. If I complain, its because I care. You people complain about PBNation, but I must admit I have never once been flamed on that board and have never recieved the kind of personal vitriol that I do here. Maybe its not them, maybe its you.

[Rebel46_99]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
" you got to work on that comprehension problem of yours."



The word is "have", not "got". As in, I don't "have" to do anything to prove my point.

DW

[Ghengis]

wow, not to get off topics but this is getting fired up in here.

Why don't we just go out and play with what we currently have and when it comes out.. then get one. Its not like your current gun is a piece of doo doo otherwise you wouldn't of bought one in the first place.

AGD are nice enough to let us know the future of what's to become of AGD... like rumors of what's up with X-mag and roller triggers etc for us forum readers to have an idea of what's to be of AGD. Look at all the other companies... they plan their project and wouldn't give anyone any ideas of what to become of it at all till it is finalized. Maybe its a mistake that AGD is being too friendly with their loyal customers on the forum by giving them more information then is needed.

I really like AGD.. they give us an oportunity to adjust their product before it comes out.. new ideas incorporated.. etc. how many other companies does that?

I personally went out and got myself an Angel Speed.. and when the X-mag comes out.. I either 1) sell my angel and buy and X-mag .. or 2) I keep them both :p

cheers.. and lighten up guys.. no need to point aggression at each other :) time will fly .. and we'll all be discussing about the X2-mag later on.

-Ghengis

[JT2002]

Originally posted by manike
So nobody want's Ferrari's when they can buy a Fiat


hrmm Fiat

Fix
It
Again
Tony

:D

the ferrari probably has less chance of breaking down:rolleyes: :D

[Vegard]

Originally posted by AGD
Some facts about the xmags, we are currently 300 on backorder and its not going up. This is not a big backorder by any standards. We have 500 machined bodies in the pipeline right now. This is a prudent number in process for this level of backorders considering its such an expensive product. While AO has been complaining, there have been multiple dealers that have had these guns sitting on the wall and not selling. Adventure Games NH had the first 9 to come off the assembly line with no preorders. She wanted to cut it back to two but I told her to come to the AO dealers section and sell them. She did and got no takers in the auction she set up, she only took two. More were sitting at Predator Marketing in CA for weeks until an AO guy found them and bought them. This is even after I made a personal appearance out there to show them the marker and get them charged about it. Fox River Games home of our sponsored team Swarm had them sitting on the wall for weeks until AO found them there too.

I haven`t read through all the pages in this thread so someone might have said this before.

There`s currently a CnC X-mag beeing delivered to me and I never would have bought it unless I had stumbled upon this place.
Before I started to visit this place I and everyone around me believed that mags was a thing of the past, nothing new happening with them. They would chop, have a slow bps and just suck...

I started reading because I wanted to know what all these people were still doing here if the marker that the company made sucked. I read, and I read and some beliefs I found to be true.
Then along comes a thread and pictures of the X-mag (or as extreme as it was called then).
I saw some videos of bps and the level10, needless to say, my jaw dropped to the floor...
I was all over it in a second the marker had all I wanted.
However the people around me "harass" me for buying one because they still believe that mags are a thing of the past.

I have seen the light only because I stumbled upon this forum, if I hadn`t I would still have used my Adrenalin Impulse and be happy with it.
The reason I see why those x-mags were hanging on shelves is that you don`t spend enough money on commercials.
Send a X-mag to PGI for review and see a rise in demand. Because I know they`ll love it.

Bring your products to the people, don`t expect the people to come to you.

(I haven`t read through this to check for errors, I got a fever and a sore throat.)


-Vegard

[FooTemps]

DD JUST SHUT UP ALREADY!

My gosh, your posts are clearly avoiding what manike and everyone else is saying. You bring up other people's flaws but you don't address their arguements. It's like you're pulling a WAS. Yeah, WAS has cleaned up more but you pulled one. You dance around the topic. As manike and others said... AGD is basically playing it smart and safe by putting out minimal to ensure sales. If you make surplus, you lose money... If you make too much surplus, you go bankrupt. If you screw up like that again, bye bye company.

Think about it, stupid.

Oh, and BTW...
Stop using a dictionary and thesarus to make yourself seem smarter than you are. You seemed to suddenly advance your vocabulary in about... 3 posts.

[ddinwdc]

"Advance my vocabulary"? Since I don't use a dictionary when composing posts for an obscure forum, I will take that as a backhanded compliment. In fact, I have addressed that argument. I'm not going to do it again, because I am sick of repeating myself for people who either don't bother to read my posts or are incapable of comprehending them. So, instead of calling me names, why don't you read what I have written? You're not the only one who nihongo ga wakarimasu. Think about that, baka gaijin. Tonari No Totoro? What are you, a child?

Oh, and Rebel, ever heard of slang? Ever used it for emphasis?

[FooTemps]

yeah... so I'm now a baka gaijin... Might as well go a step further and call me ahou. Sheesh... I don't really care if you call me a gaijin since I already know I'm not Japanese. I just like studio Ghibli, that's why I used their totoro logo. If you don't like my taste in Japanese animation, I don't mind. It's only my preference.

I've also noticed that you've been talking circles around the subject. From what I've read, you've been complaining about AGD's incapability to keep up with demand.

Wait a sec, I think I'll take your advice and reread your whole little diddy against manike and co. again. Wow, I didn't even realize it goes back even further... I keep going once I reread and this time I'll take notes...:p

...
...
...

Done! Okay, I see that I precieved correctly on your agrument that AGD is incapable of keeping up with demand for products. The problem with discontinuing the xmag is that it shows that AGD doesn't care enough to keep a good product going. You see, the xmag isn't really there for big sales, it's supposed to be the f1 of paintball markers. It's there to show the power of AGD and it was used to further develop other products such as ULE. It's not a matter of keeping the xmag alive to get sales. It's very sales inefficient actually, AGD makes little profit on it. They make it for the sake of it being the best.

Don't say I'm calling you names either, you've been doing it a lot more than I have. You just happened to push me over the edge with your "I think I know better than the president of a company and the designer of the C&C mill scheme" attitude. Yes, you did make a good reccomendation at first but you didn't realize that if AGD discontinued the xmag, a hell of a lot of people would get mad at AGD and head somewhere else for that "top marker". The ULE Emag doesn't fill the "top of the world" description like the xmag does. Once AGD drops the xmag, a whole flock of people hoping for an xmag would run somewhere else and never consider anything else AGD. You said that the xmag would get people in the door but you didn't consider the people who would only want the xmag and nothing else.

(Your analogy with the toyotas and sports cars is a bit flawed too. You said that the xmag is the sports car that gets people in the door. The ULE isn't a minivan fyi. It's probably the next most expensive sports car on the lot. Then everything else would fit as the SUV/Minivan/Sedan category.)

Your idea is pretty good, I'll give you that... but your presentation sucked. You made it seem like an attack at the xmag and then you got all defensive about your idea. I can see you're pretty passionate about the ULE's but AGD needs a powerhouse to keep new people coming in.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I am a child... Well, not technically a child... A teenager to be precise. Still, I can see your standpoint but I think you screwed up on getting your point across.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Vegard
There`s currently a CnC X-mag beeing delivered to me and I never would have bought it unless I had stumbled upon this place.
Before I started to visit this place I and everyone around me believed that mags was a thing of the past, nothing new happening with them. They would chop, have a slow bps and just suck...

I started reading because I wanted to know what all these people were still doing here if the marker that the company made sucked. I read, and I read and some beliefs I found to be true.
Then along comes a thread and pictures of the X-mag (or as extreme as it was called then).

I saw some videos of bps and the level10, needless to say, my jaw dropped to the floor...
I was all over it in a second the marker had all I wanted.
However the people around me "harass" me for buying one because they still believe that mags are a thing of the past.

I have seen the light only because I stumbled upon this forum, if I hadn`t I would still have used my Adrenalin Impulse and be happy with it.

-Vegard


Welcome to the fold brother. Glad to have you here. Hope you feel better. I know you will when that X Mag arrives! ;)

People this is the testament to the interplay between this site and the believers that come of it. But its the story between he tells that is the deciding factors in marketing in the US. Look closely at that opposing factors he delt with making his choice. He stepped up in spite of what "others" said. How many others out there can be so brave? That is the gamble that Tom plays... every day...

[JT2002]

sheesh. if only i could get credit for these essays in english class. AO... we have too much time on our hands.

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Why don't you address my "grammatical errors"? I would thoroughly enjoy watching you try.Well, if you are asking for a critique, you did use the phrase "I could care less" in a previous post when I think you meant to say "I could not care less".

This is a maddeningly common error, but you did ask.

[madmatt151]

I've already posted in this thread and feel I made my point clear, but all this anger has made me want to reiterate some things. I too was a long time mag user and then shyed away from the sport for a while. When I decided to get a new marker I bought a used mag because I always loved them and never had any of the problems people talked about. One day I decided to order some nubbins and went to airgun.com. Lo and behold I found AO and have been here ever since. If it wasn't for AO I would know nothing of the Intelliframe, RT valve, ULE, PLASTIC NUBBINS HOORAY!! and a whole host of other gret things that AGD has done. No one around here has any respect for mags or sells them. I don't like this situation and am glad for AO because of it. I think what people's anger is moreso the availability of the AGD products. See, if we had options as to where to purchase these items, then life would be different. The ONLY place to get a ULE, XMAG or other great AGD product for some of us, maybe more than I think, is here or AGD's site. This can be frustrating. Frustration often times leads to anger. Then anger leads to relatively sedate and pecable people screaming and yelling at each other. This seems to be the situation now. I don't like the fact that some people have to resort to name calling, flaming or any other non-civilized method of communication, but it has happened. In short, everyone stop getting insulted, take a breather and realize that everyone who has posted has made some pretty valid points. I hope more AGD products are available sooner, I would wait for them, but I wouldn't like it of course. I hope Tom reads all these posts and doesn't get as angry as I would probably get if I was him. I hope he sees a loyal bunch of enthusiasts whose frustrations have boiled pretty high and some venting is going on. There is much constructive criticism amongst the angry tirades, youjust gotta look a little harder. Keep up the good work and please everyone...... PLAY NICE!! :)

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by madmatt151
I've already posted in this thread and feel I made my point clear, but all this anger has made me want to reiterate some things. I too was a long time mag user and then shyed away from the sport for a while. When I decided to get a new marker I bought a used mag because I always loved them and never had any of the problems people talked about. One day I decided to order some nubbins and went to airgun.com. Lo and behold I found AO and have been here ever since. If it wasn't for AO I would know nothing of the Intelliframe, RT valve, ULE, PLASTIC NUBBINS HOORAY!! and a whole host of other gret things that AGD has done. No one around here has any respect for mags or sells them. I don't like this situation and am glad for AO because of it. I think what people's anger is moreso the availability of the AGD products. See, if we had options as to where to purchase these items, then life would be different. The ONLY place to get a ULE, XMAG or other great AGD product for some of us, maybe more than I think, is here or AGD's site. This can be frustrating. Frustration often times leads to anger. Then anger leads to relatively sedate and pecable people screaming and yelling at each other. This seems to be the situation now. I don't like the fact that some people have to resort to name calling, flaming or any other non-civilized method of communication, but it has happened. In short, everyone stop getting insulted, take a breather and realize that everyone who has posted has made some pretty valid points. I hope more AGD products are available sooner, I would wait for them, but I wouldn't like it of course. I hope Tom reads all these posts and doesn't get as angry as I would probably get if I was him. I hope he sees a loyal bunch of enthusiasts whose frustrations have boiled pretty high and some venting is going on. There is much constructive criticism amongst the angry tirades, youjust gotta look a little harder. Keep up the good work and please everyone...... PLAY NICE!! :)

WOW! you've got tons of guts to say that to a whole bunch of angry flame happy people... I wanted to do that but I didn't want to get yelled at or anything.

[TequilaMockingbird]

Ok, this was actually going somewhere before everyone got goofy on each other. I slogged through all of it, hopefully Tom will too.

Tom, thanks for this thread, you obviously invested some time on it, and it cleared a lot of things up for me. So much in fact, that I apologize if it seemed I was bashing on the other thread. For one, I wasn't aware that AGDUS is dependent on AGDE for the bodies and was unable to supply them itself. (Many of the regular AOs seem to think everyone knows what's previously been hashed out on the forum.) Mostly I was venting some frustrations at seeing AGD miss out on a really good opportunity to put to rest a lot of the flack it takes from non-AGD fans and gain some market share. I realize you've got a company to think of, and it's much easier for the rest of us to be "armchair CEOs" without knowing all that's going on.

(General thoughts):
The X-Mag definitely gives the Angel a run for its money as top dog, but since the X's debut, other guns have greatly improved as well. Timis are hot with a lot of people, the Orracle is up-and-coming, and SP is releasing the Shocker and Nerve. Paintballers are a weird lot, some easily buy into hype, some only go by personal experience. For a long time the Mag had a bad rep as the AutoBlender, and it still surprises me how many people cling to that when the Level 10 is so widespread. (Personally, I never chopped a Mag before the Lv10 came out. A Cocker is another matter, I'll shortstroke one in 3 shots. Go figure.) The X-Mag flies in the face of this rep, but only if enough people get to try it or see it in action. The E-Mag is essentially the same gun, but a lot of current non-AGD people either don't realize it or find it ugly. Silly reasons not to get a great gun, but the missed sale is the important thing. The ULE stuff is a nice way to skirt any possible non-compete issue with AGDE while offering most of the same benefits as the X (weight/appearance). It's just frustrating to know that you can open a paintball magazine and see an X-Mag, but it won't be on a dealer page.

Manike's logic on the car analogy is fatally flawed. A Viper may get people into the door of a Dodge dealership, but that doesn't guarantee that someone will buy an Intrepid because the Viper's on backorder. Someone looking for a Viper isn't going to settle for that. They're probably gonna walk over to the Chevy place down the street to buy a Vette or go over to the Porsche dealership. They're gonna make that same trip down the street if there's a Viper in stock, but it's baby-poop yellow with a peach lace interior. X-Mags that sat in a shop could very easily have been passed over because someone wanted blue rather than red or green. If someone's gonna plop down $1,500 on a gun, it's going to be exactly what they want.

Lastly, guys this is already a 6-page sticky for God's sake. Do we really need to get into personal bickering? Debate a point with someone if you don't agree with it, but at least be mature about it.

[TequilaMockingbird]

Good lord, I spent so long on my reply that Madmatt beat me to it. *d'oh!*

[Miscue]

/me raises iron fist.

ddinwdc. I have a shortcut on my desktop ready to ban you.

Quit trolling, being disruptive, and swearing. You have been warned. There will be no second warning.

[manike]

Originally posted by TequilaMockingbird
Manike's logic on the car analogy is fatally flawed. A Viper may get people into the door of a Dodge dealership, but that doesn't guarantee that someone will buy an Intrepid because the Viper's on backorder.

I never said they would, an intrepid isn't a good comparison to a Viper. The E-mag isn't that far off the X-mag...

It's like someone going for a Red rose Corvette, but then just deciding to get the regular vette.

And so what if they can't get the Red Rose and go down the street to buy a Viper? They at least saw the other Chevy products and now know a little more about them and what is available. Next time they are looking for the wife or for something different who knows they may go and buy that intrepid.

You can't tell me the analagy is flawed when people have already stated in this exact thread that they have done it!

Look at RP he now owns (or has owned) 6 mags that he never would have otherwise! He has been known to buy them and give them away as presents because he knows the standard mag is a relaible gun with LX. He wouldn't have known that if he hadn't come in to see the X-mag and stopped to understand the Intrepid ;)

[AGD]

Yes I am reading all these posts. Now I am off to the Megameet and will digest them over the weekend.

AGD

[manike]

and I'm off to LIBG, see you all after the weekend :) and some at the weekend.

I hope the Mega Meet goes well.

Have fun!

Simon

[ddinwdc]

Stop talking about it and just do it already. You guys really get off on the power trip, and your members are people I no longer want to associate with. You think I care if I get banned from AO? Do you think that will make even the slightest impact on my life? I have been nothing but courteous, and have never flamed anyone without provocation. Have I come to the defense of children as they were mercilessly berated by grown men twice their age? Yes. Have I responded to people who--rather than engage in intelligent debate--resorted to name-calling? Sure. But I defy you to show me where I cussed. Wanker? That's not a cuss word in this country, but I removed it anyway. I could curse in Japanese if you want me to (as someone has already done in this thread, but I guess you missed that one, huh?), but you wouldn't understand it either, so why would it matter? I come here to express my opinion, not to pick fights. Clearly, you people have a problem with someone who speaks his or her mind and (gasp) challenges the status quo. So go ahead, hypocrite, ban me. I guess your rules don't apply to people whose opinion you agree with. And you know what else? If I ever feel like it, I'll set up another account with a different email address and come right back. But don't worry, that won't happen.

[madmatt151]

Damn, I am missing both the megameet and the LIBG!! Kind of glad, how would I have picked between the two! Off topic, I know... sorry.

[cphilip]

You contradict yourself in EVERY sentance you wrote. Your actions do at least... You cannot seem to express yourself without hostility and anger. I suggest you seek some help.

So be it then. At your request and for the good of the boards.

And no... you won't come back. Clever boy I will ban your IP too... :rolleyes:

If you wish to discuss this further email me at cphilip@clemson.edu

Until then good luck to you and I wish you well.

[dre1919]

Man, for an information thread this deteriorated fast into a flame fest. What'd we have, three official square-off's between members and one banning? Damn...that was all totally uncalled for.

I don't know about anyone else, but I got a lot better understanding of what's going on with the X-Mag and it's production out of this thread at least. I was under the impression the X was the new flagship marker for AGD, when in reality it's not. It's more like a special edition of the E-Mag only available in small quantities for the hardened AGD enthusiast. This is where my animosity and confusion came from on the X...this misunderstanding of it's role in the AGD product line. I had thought this was the direction the company was taking it's markers as a whole, when in reality the product isn't financially feasable as a full production marker.

I think the X is a very sweet marker no doubt. I won't be waiting to get one because it doesn't mean that much to me, but I can understand why some folks will.

[Daroach]

Originally posted by AGD
More were sitting at Predator Marketing in CA for weeks until an AO guy found them and bought them. This is even after I made a personal appearance out there to show them the marker and get them charged about it.

OH OH OH, he is talkin about MEEEE :D ;)

i bought one of those

[Dayspring]

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!


Originally posted by cphilip
You contradict yourself in EVERY sentance you wrote. Your actions do at least... You cannot seem to express yourself without hostility and anger. I suggest you seek some help.

So be it then. At your request and for the good of the boards.

And no... you won't come back. Clever boy I will ban your IP too... :rolleyes:

If you wish to discuss this further email me at cphilip@clemson.edu

Until then good luck to you and I wish you well.

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD
AO,

This is in response to to the many threads currently running about AGD's ablility to deliver product.
AGD

Tom,
I few questions for ya. First, I would have posted in here ealry had I seen this post.

Roller triggers:
I am kinda lost on the roller trigger issue. I thought AO wanted and intagrated wheel trigger and not 2 big wheels on each side of the trigger?

Other comments:
I guess my last comment on this issue or any other product AGD makes; there needs to be some real marketing done. I cannot afford to buy an Xmag, then a Ygrip, then an Xvavle for my mini. So appearantly some folks in AO are going to be tapped out for funds. (to be honest it isnt a money issue but a wife kicking my butt issue)

You have a few choices, market AO and sell direct here or sell to the dealership outside of AO.

My personal belief that you can have the best products in the world, however w/o a key marketing stradgy(sp) all your work is for not. *WARNING* This is going to sound real bad, butt Tom maybe you should spend more time on marketing plans and less on AO. Now that doesn't mean I dont like you and you shouldnt post. ... It does mean that your time is very valuable and it should be spent on projects. You can still read and post on AO, however have some of your faithful mods email you with important subjects and post accordingly. I am willing to bet that your time (per hour if you will) is way more than that of your mods. Think how much money it costs AGD to have the CEO on here posting!!!!

Again thanks for posting Tom, as well as other folks whom have posted on here in an approraite manor.

jb

Edit: sorry my spelling sux, just to lazy to run through MS.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Roller triggers:
I am kinda lost on the roller trigger issue. I thought AO wanted and intagrated wheel trigger and not 2 big wheels on each side of the trigger?

I might can answer that part some...

For one there was two kinds of rollers in the eventual kit that was sold. One single roller for Blade triggers and the double disc one for Grooved triggers. The Grooved one like Chris's prototype could not be fastened on without milling out a slot the trigger itself. And with an emag trigger that disturbs the magnet as well. All this making it less appealing to an add on bracket type set up. And that would make the modification somewhat irreversable. So it was made that way for a wheel on each side for a grooved and a single wheel if someone had a Blade application. It was a matter of taking the idea and making it work as an "add on" that was easily reversable. Each kit uses the same brackets to hang the rollers onto. But two types of rollers are in the kit.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Whew! This thread is long. My only comment is to clarify what was said in a roundabout way earlier. The X-mag is a custom version of the E-mag. If you want a custom version of any gun, it will take longer than normal to get one. Especially for custom anodizing. I will get my X-mag when I can afford one. I'll enjoy my Classic 'Mag until then. BTW, I would like to thank Tom for reading and responding to the posts here. He doesn't have to you know.

[Tron]

Originally posted by ddinwdc
Stop talking about it and just do it already. You guys really get off on the power trip, and your members are people I no longer want to associate with. You think I care if I get banned from AO? Do you think that will make even the slightest impact on my life? I have been nothing but courteous, and have never flamed anyone without provocation. Have I come to the defense of children as they were mercilessly berated by grown men twice their age? Yes. Have I responded to people who--rather than engage in intelligent debate--resorted to name-calling? Sure. But I defy you to show me where I cussed. Wanker? That's not a cuss word in this country, but I removed it anyway. I could curse in Japanese if you want me to (as someone has already done in this thread, but I guess you missed that one, huh?), but you wouldn't understand it either, so why would it matter? I come here to express my opinion, not to pick fights. Clearly, you people have a problem with someone who speaks his or her mind and (gasp) challenges the status quo. So go ahead, hypocrite, ban me. I guess your rules don't apply to people whose opinion you agree with. And you know what else? If I ever feel like it, I'll set up another account with a different email address and come right back. But don't worry, that won't happen.

Here ya go man might be helpful.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82619

-Tron

[No sKiLLz]

So the ultimate question is "when"?

[shartley]

Just a little warning before folks think they can avoid being banned on a particular forum by IP Masking, Changing IP Addresses, etc.

Yes, you CAN get around those bans. Nope, it really isn’t that hard. But…… folks need to ask themselves if it is WORTH it. You had better have a darn good reason for doing it IF you do. Now sometimes there may be, but most of the time there isn’t.

Now, why do I say this? Because most ISP’s have rules about these kinds of things, and they are more than happy to terminate an account just to avoid problems. Now if you are running free AOL crap, you may think it is okay… for a while… until AOL decides not to let that number ever create an account again. ;) And if you are running DSL or Cable….. what a waste of a good account.

Folks are free to do as they wish, but they should really consider all the possible outcomes for their actions. ;)

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
So the ultimate question is "when"?

When what?

[No sKiLLz]

When are they going to start delivering?

[TequilaMockingbird]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
When are they going to start delivering?

The answer's been clearly stated: As soon as they can.

I agree on the confusing marketing, most of the material on the X I've seen gives the impression that it's AGD's next big production gun, not a limited custom item. Ah well, maybe in 10 years they'll be another Holy Grail of paintball collecting, another Desert Duck or Daystar.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Originally posted by TequilaMockingbird


The answer's been clearly stated: As soon as they can.

I agree on the confusing marketing, most of the material on the X I've seen gives the impression that it's AGD's next big production gun, not a limited custom item. Ah well, maybe in 10 years they'll be another Holy Grail of paintball collecting, another Desert Duck or Daystar.

...or pump kit for the Automag.

[No sKiLLz]

Duly noted. I imagine by the time it's available I might just have the money again to sink into another high end marker. Until then I guess I'll just have to settle for the Xtreme Matrix. <-----arrives tomorrow!!! :D

I still love AGD and would buy an X-mag in a heartbeat, but you know how it is when you're out of food and water and there's no land in sight...

[crankydan]

Philip,

Do us all a favor and for gods sake, LOCK THIS THREAD. This is completely out of control. DD really didnt violate the agreement. There was no need to allow it to continue, Moderators should "LOCK" these things down "BEFORE" they get out of hand.

[AutomagBoy]

I dont know if tom realizes this or not but there may be 10,000 members at AO but there are only about 800 active users and out of those only about 200 have enough money floating around just to go otu and buy an X-mag. Another problem is about only 1/3 of the paintball public even knows of the exsistence of the X-Mag and the
X-mags two main competators the Angel and Timmy about 9/10 of the paintball public knows about them.

[WarBUCKs]

I love AGD... :)

If I knew that their were X-mags to buy off the dealer forum, I would have checked it out, but I put myself on the waiting list like an idiot. Along with 300 other people I guess. :) heh heh


Well, I know I can wait it out. I have no problems doing that. The anticipation is soooo exciting... :)

[cphilip]

well this one has risen back from the dead! :D

[Recon by Fire]

You can put yourself on the list and buy one on the forums in the meantime. AGD will call when your batch comes up to see if you still want it.

[No sKiLLz]

Warbucks is a tool. :D

J/K

[mbyankee10]

I think this Answers most of the problem. i am a die hard agd man i have 5 agd markers. original 68 automag level 5
minimag, sydarm (you want to talk about a problemed marker pm me), 68 classic with an rt valve and last but not least an E mag with x valve and ule mainbody.
as written By Tom Kaye Himself "It was never my idea to make the xmag body, AGDE came up with it and when the cnc version came out you all went wild for it. Of course you did because it was one of the hardest to machine parts in the history of paintball, that we didn’t design." I think all you little children that have to much money to spend and to much time on your hands and have no clue what it is to own or run a business should SHUT UP!!!!!. i think it is great that agdus is trying to offer something different that is not even their design. AGD could have said hey that looks great we arent making it though sorry.Oh BTW a computer driven fully automated milling machine that is capable to do the small minor tiny cuts that the X-Mag body requires in a large number cost in excess of six hundred thousand dollars(i spelled it out for those who cant count the number of zeros behind the six.)and i do know this for a fact i can get the technical spec and data for you but you probably wouldnt understand them anyway. And if Tom Kaye wants to tell you to take your bus. else where, well Good For him. AGDUS could just drop the xmag and make something else and then none of you would have one. I think in his letter he explained everything that needs to be answered and you know what he is the president of AGDUS he can do what he wants with his business. If you want the headaches involved make him an offer maybe he will sell it to you.

For you Tom Kaye keep doing the vodoo you do so good because i will keep buying your products because of the quality that you try to give us the customer. A Paintballer since 1989

[RamboPreacher]

holy thread resurrection batman!

[JT2002]

way to jump in the conversation. 7 pages later and 3 months in between posts! :D

[mbyankee10]

been away awhile have a business to run sorry

[SpecialBlend2786]

Originally posted by krafty
Tom = Teacher
AO = skooled

agreed

[Robbie]

Quality is always worth the wait.
Its not like i don't have a mag to play with now...
It will be all better when the nice man who brings me packages has one that says from AGD.
Perferribly on a friday so i can go play they next day.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Yes..well..I can't complain about anything...oh well..