2004 EMag???

[JAM]

OK, I've been reading Tom's XMag reply thread and i got to thinking what I would want in a marker and was wondering if anyone else feels the same?

It seems a lot of the XMag mess comes from impatient people, desire for a sexy mag, and troubles with AGDE's production. So, why not get this thing back inhouse? I say, leave the XMag in the state of tom's "High-end, limited production, collector's mag" and revamp the EMAG.

Check this- make a new milled slug that matches with a new milled rail for the EMag. the ULE body is nice, but it was meant to save weight, not be sexy. Standardize colors- maybe Black, Blue, Silver and 2 fades. Maybe always have the frame/battery black to streamline? People can order custom colors, but they will have to wait. This way, we get a really reliable, sexy marker with the BEST parts of the XMag design- light weight, removable breach, cocker barrels. The ACE is nice and all, but a bit superfluous. So, it's basically a restyled/lightened EMag. All the production can be done in the US and price it for a street price of around $1000.

I think it would be cool.

thoughts?

-j

[JAM]

?

[Vendetta]

This is exactly what I want. ACE and Level X is like wearing a belt and suspenders:)

[shartley]

I like the look, but honestly it looks like it would take the same amount of milling and such as the C&C.. all and all. So if they were going to make the new bodies, why not just make the C&C here stateside and reduce the price at the same time? I may be wrong, but your new design looks like it would be about the same cost for them to make…………

[Vendetta]

I may be wrong, but your new design looks like it would be about the same cost for them to make…………

I'm sure you would save lots of time and money not having to deal with the ACE electronics.

[Cryer]

I love it! I'd get one in a heart-beat. It may take a while to transition between the 2 designs, tho. Just like all the talk about ULE's becoming stock components after the SS bodies sell out. I would definatley get one when they became available.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Vendetta


I'm sure you would save lots of time and money not having to deal with the ACE electronics.
That is true... but couldn't they make an ACEless C&C?

I am not trying to be difficult, but like I said, the style is so close to the C&C that it would almost be a shame to not just make a Stateside version without the ACE. If investment costs were not an issue, I would say make BOTH… LOL But if the style is already selling, and folks like it, why not stick to a proven design? Heck… like I posted a while back, it would be great if they came out with an RT Pro body that looked like that too! :D

[Kevmaster]

but the problem with producing xmags has nothing to do with the fact they have an ACE and ACE board...

sam, i agree. i think this would be just as hard to produce as the x-mag is.

[JAM]

Shartley, the main prob with the XMags is supply, and if they cold be built here, that would save some time/money and the pic isn't what I would do for a body, it should and can be simplified, but it's for the concept.

-j

[shartley]

Originally posted by JAM
Shartley, the main prob with the XMags is supply, and if they cold be built here, that would save some time/money and the pic isn't what I would do for a body, it should and can be simplified, but it's for the concept.

-j
Trust me, I know.

I was just going with what you posted. You didn’t say that is not what you would do, but made it look like that IS what you would do. So my comments addressed that issue. ;) And that design is so close to the C&C that you might as well MAKE the C&C Stateside.

And honestly, if they were being made anywhere but one location, the supply issue would not BE an issue. LOL And I can’t bring myself to think that if Tom could make them cheaper here in the States that he wouldn’t be doing so already. Heck, I am not arguing with you that it would be a great thing to do…. I just think that Tom must have already thought about that. And more so since he would not have to do any major redesigning, the C&C is already “machine ready”.

[sniper1rfa]

honestly, i think a fully ULE E-Mag would be awesome. not too expensive or time consuming to make, and very nice looking.

[langrage]

I feel JAM's point is valid. IF you are already using the standard pieces of the emag (body rail, gripframe, battery) than all you would really need to do is mill the the slug. This should not be too hard to do since we have already seen some of the slug designs. This would also allow emag owners to just buy a slug body to up grade. It seems alot like how different car models have different versions of the same car and change the from being DE to SE or LE. It would be like a cheaper version xmag, with out the leather and nice radio:D

[JAM]

AGDE owns the Extreem milling, fine, so change it...

I'm not trying to redo the XMag, I'm thinking about updating the EMag.

-j

:

[JAM]

open:

[dre1919]

I agree with you J, I think this is definitely the way to go. I was unhappy with the X-Mag production because I was thinking it was the "new" AGD flagship marker, when in reality it's a special version of the EMag. I think AGD should redesign the EMag from the ground up personally, I mean completely different body and frame and just go with something technologically superior and stylish, yet still being affordable to produce en masse.

One thing bothered me when I showed the EMag to a friend of mine a long time ago that's not an AGD onwer or supporter. When he first saw it, he said "It looks like an RT with a battery pack". I think that's a very valid point...why doesn't AGD push the envelope and just come out with something completely new? I mean, the power tube assembly can still be the straight tube through the body, but why not do something completely different body wise to wrap around it? Agressive (but stateside and affordable) milling, varied anno colors, etc. That way, not only do we the consumer get a high end, AGD quality marker that's light, carved and anno'd...but it also shows some growth on the company's part.

It says "Hey, were not afraid to try something completely new and leave the past behind. Welcome to the future, welcome to the new AGD" or something like that. At least it would get them out of the backorder, have to wait on AGDE problem they have now.

[JAM]

?

[hitech]

Just thought I would help clear some thinks up.

Here are excerpts from manike's post about the manafacture of the XMag:


Originally posted by manike

Time to put the record straight because I don't want other people taking what you said as an opinion to be fact...If AGDE decided to stop right now but let AGD continue with the X-mag, AGD wouldn't be able to offer you the X-mag at the current price.

The cost of the body is not in copyright to AGDE.

There is no 'one shop' contracted to do the milling.

AGDE would be very happy to get someone else to do it I believe. They never wanted to do production they just wanted to do R&D with their mill. Last I heard they would be very happy if Tom could get a shop to make them in the USA...

X-mag bodies are made by AGDE in Europe, because that is currently the cheapest place to get them made. And that's the bottom line. You can't get the numbers made (and that are demanded) anywhere else at the same or for less. SO what choices are there?...

AGDE aren't stopping X-mags being made anywhere else.

They aren't charging through their teeth for AGD to use the X-mag design.

They aren't limiting the numbers being made other than because there is physically no way of making more on their mill...

If Tom wants more in the USA, he needs to find a way to make that happen for the USA.

Also there is more to the X-mag than just the body...

The ACE and board takes time to make and to assemble. The Frames need to be machined to accept the ACE board (= extra cost :( ) (all supposed to be done in the USA I think). Several batches of guns have been held up by frames and ACE boards...

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Jam...I love you man...that thing is dead sexy..how about a nice blue (back) to black (front) for you old friend, DB...hehehehehe

[lack of grace]

Man those look superb.....

I would buy two....Imagin the color scheming you color hook those up with.

damn nice....

[maglover52]

me like the first two.

[Gecko]

2004 emag
ULE body
ULE rail
ULE gripframe
Xvalve
Lvl 10
Max rof 20 bps
Various Colors
Price ~~800

all i want is a machine gun to lay waste to anyone dumb enough to stick there head out. Look at how succesful the gz timmy is, no show just go. The more tourneys i play the more i just want somthin i'm not afraid to scratch and somthing thats always works.

[xadamx]

i think is a good idea, worth of tom looking into(if he already hasnt :) ) i really like both designs, the second one seems like it would be cheaper for AGD to produce b/c it looks like it just requires a little milling on the original rail and a new body. props jam

[Vendetta]

Hey Jam, How about styling up that battery pack too.:cool:

[nippinout]

Looking good.

BUT... The ULE body doesn't go over the valve at all. Without that extra chunk of metal, cutting the body so part of the valve is exposed looks ugly. I've done some drawings, and they don't look nice at all without that extra chunk of metal.

I would also think that the design should step a little away from the xmag feel. This doesn't have all of the contours, but takes the same feel.

Inspiration from the xmag, not a cheaper production cost xmag.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by Gecko
2004 emag
ULE body
ULE rail
ULE gripframe
Xvalve
Lvl 10
Max rof 20 bps
Various Colors
Price ~~800

all i want is a machine gun to lay waste to anyone dumb enough to stick there head out. Look at how succesful the gz timmy is, no show just go. The more tourneys i play the more i just want somthin i'm not afraid to scratch and somthing thats always works.

that is what agd plans to make for all up comming emags once they can make enough ule bodies to have some extras to put on emags

[Jack & Coke]

Great ideas Jam!

How about an AGD version of the PTP Micro Emag?

Combine the rail and body -> unibody...

Integrate a subtle snatch grip...

Keep the milling simple and clean...

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by RogueFactor
As I have heard the story.....Tom doesnt make them stateside becuase AGDEurope owns the design and control over where they are manufactured.

Its all a part of the licensing agreement when AGDE designed the body, and the only place these bodies will ever come from is Europe, unless AGD Europe decides otherwise.

Why doenst Tom make a CNC version that looks like the Europe 1-piece body? Most likely becuase of a non-compete clause in the licensing agreement.

You dont think AGDEurope would go to the time and expense of the programming and all the R&D to have Tom knock off their body do ya?

This body does not belong to AGD US. Its design is owned by AGD Europe, who is a separate entity altogether from AGD US. So Tom needs to buy the rights to the design. Don't give me the expensive argument crap, they'd make money back in no time. AGD has this habit of creating demand and not delivering. I remember the early 90's when the mag first came out. Everyone wanted one, no one could get one. They were like $450 at the time too.

[Splathappy]

Yea JAM has some realy Valid points and the revamped E-Mag desgins are realy nice.. Here is another vote for the the 2004 E-mag... can i preorder mine now ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by WARPED1
So Tom needs to buy the rights to the design. Don't give me the expensive argument crap, they'd make money back in no time.


Originally posted by Manike
The cost of the body is not in copyright to AGDE....

Last I heard they would be very happy if Tom could get a shop to make them in the USA...

X-mag bodies are made by AGDE in Europe, because that is currently the cheapest place to get them made. And that's the bottom line....

AGDE aren't stopping X-mags being made anywhere else...

They aren't charging through their teeth for AGD to use the X-mag design...

If Tom wants more in the USA, he needs to find a way to make that happen for the USA.

[Vendetta]

can i preorder mine now

That would be the 2005 edition if you order now.;) :D

[JAM]

simpler...

[JAM]

opening

[JAM]

apart:

[maglover52]

hey jam could you do that first emag you posted with an orange to black fade? thanks.

[JAM]

Originally posted by maglover52
hey jam could you do that first emag you posted with an orange to black fade? thanks.

Man, i would, but i already "wasted" WAY too much time today...

;)

[Blennidae]

JAM: That blue to black one makes it easier to see where you were going with the idea. I think its a winner. Hopefully Tom will see this soon and think about it.

[Vendetta]

Hopefully in time for X-Mas!

[maglover52]

ok jam thanks anyway maybe some other time? they look really sweet though.

[WARPED1]

Come on! Don't plant another seed in Toms head that he can get 90% done, tell us how awesome it is, then say we can't have it!

[MinimagRockin']

Jam that last pic you posted is awesome, I might buy something that looks like that over an xmag.

[RRfireblade]

I'm feeling it.

Here's my input.

Lose the removable breech.Warp user will buy warp bodies and everyone else vert.I don't think most people care about switching back and forth.

One piece body rail, that just simply smokes the 2 peice.

Mill the battery somehow, Please.

I personaly don't like seeing that front section of the valve through the body. Looks like it's missing something.I'd say leave a little more material there.

Retail for ~$800.

I'll put down a deposit right now.

Jay.

Crappy pic attempt....

[JAM]

A quick fix would be to make a ULE body/Rail combo that fit together likethis:

[nuclear zombie]

I think the best bet would do as little cnc as possible , make the body somewhat like ptp , but more refined and no stupid S's milled into the sides .

[Jack & Coke]

nuclear zombie is correct!


Awesome stuff JAM!

[JAM]

yeah... simple's cool.
:

[JAM]

OK, actually, upon thinking of it more and more...

I'd want to do a one piece body- sep. rails stink.

I'd mill it like a NON C&C XMag- BUT with a sort of window for the valve, it'd have NO removable breech, that would be WAY WAY faster and cheaper to produce than the X.

Double ball detents, no ACE, saving money on the ACE and the lack of the additional milling for it. And I'd make them in dust solid colors. Blue, black, red and green.

Custom ano colors/fades available.

;)

check it:

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

lol wooo!

[_Spork_1]

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?postid=802371

i think this design is awsome, and is better than all the other designs by FAR!

your photo shop skills amaze me, literraly

[nuclear zombie]

If we do go with a single piece body how do we make it so that we can mount either a stock foregrip or an e-mag battery pack ?

[Curly]

Originally posted by _Spork_1
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?postid=802371

i think this design is awsome, and is better than all the other designs by FAR!

your photo shop skills amaze me, literraly



I agree completely. Jam= teh photoshop master!

[yagrmiestr]

nuclear zombie: well, the emag battery pack threads to the frame not the body. So a new body would only need a threaded hole to attach a vertical adapter for a non-emag.

[Remington]

I agree with Spork and Curly. :D

JAM - Could you make the design that Spork reposted into a one piece body and rail design? That milling looks awesome(much better than the X-mag IMO).

If Tom reads this - Maybe AGD should make the X-mag a "Limited Edition" E-mag and then make JAM's design the new "general purpose" AGD E-mag. :D

[Mango]

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802371

good lord!! That looks better than the current X-mag!! (I know you were not trying to reinvent it and all) But it still came out better. Great work Jam!

[WARPED1]

Wow, if that becomes readily available, with like no waiting list, sign me up!

[einhander619]

Tom, please use that black/blue fade one as the next milling for xmags!! Then use jam's concept with that black nonmilled extreme for the next emag! Good god, AGD will be big pimpin then...

[JAM]

thanks guys, yeah I just feel that it's time for an overhaul of AGD stuff, but keep it fairly simple. I'll try a one-piece with my first milling idea later.

As for how it would work on non-Emags... well, I hadn't thought of that, it really started as a way to do an XMag "lite"... but, yeah, the body would prob work with an intelliframe and a cool foregrip.

more later,
j

[MinimagRockin']

I think this thread deserves to be a classic. I can't believe no one came up with Jam's simple yet superb idea yet. What is so desirable about the xmag over the standard emag? The fact that it looks so much sweeter, the performance of the two should be exactly the same. If xmags are such a huge hassle, ditch them and make a new body that you don't have to rely on AGDE to build, it makes perfect sense.

[nuclear zombie]

I don't think it's that simple ,

it still needs to be a little less complex to mass produce , as is some of the curves may still require some cnc .

I like the design but in my opinion the x-mag is still prettier.

[DyNasTy]

My opinion on this is yes teh wait for the X-mag sucks, but Tom is doing everything he can!

Too simply drop the Xtreme and make it a limited run, and completely redesign the body, possibly the battery, and everything else, that would be very expensive for him to do.

I think the wait for the X-mag is worth it, however on a side note

I would like to see the E-mag changed for 2004, all ULE and X-Valve stock, possibly with a new desighned ULE Main Body such as the one in your pics.

Other than that though This would be hard for Tom to do, its more likely for him to make a ULE E-mag stock with ULE Body and X-Valve than it is for him to simply drop the X-mag.

[JAM]

I'm certainly not saying drop the XMag.

I'm saying update the EMag- lighter, more stylish ONE PIECE aluminum body with simpler-than-X-mag milling.

Keep the XMag as the top of the line AGD gun with the added ACE, sweet milling, and removable breach.

it would be cool to have a $1000 gun that had all that style and light weight. Not to compete with the $1400 top f the line, but to give buyers a choice... liek buying a Porsche instead of a Ferarri.

-j

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

I am in love with this...

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802371

[JEDI]

I just want to go on record that I support Jam's idea. Jam, those designs are damn awesome. I think simple is the way to go. Keep it closer to an Emag design rather than a redesign, and it will be more likely to become reality. Tom probably wouldn't want to go back to the drawing boards yet again. Man, those designs, all of them, are freakin awesome!

[Patron God of Pirates]

If there is enough demand some company should just mill a slug and rail to a similar design. Someone bring this thread to the attention of Xtreeme Depot or Deadly Wind. The fact is that a marker very much like people are now drooling over can already be made. Tom made it possible so that he doesn't have to come out with a new milled model every year.

The only things I would like to see are total ULE E-Mags available. Oh, and Warp Breeched Slugs.

[Phil]

JAM should be on the AGD design staff payroll. I was thinking the exact same thing when I read toms x-mag thread. I think JAM's removable breech design blows away the xmag milling. The thousand dollar emag revamp idea is a winner.

[Vendetta]

Tom made it possible so that he doesn't have to come out with a new milled model every year.

It's not like you have to re-tool when you change a design. Just plot it out in autocad and let the machine take over.

[xadamx]

jam: those photoshopped mags are absolutly gorgeous. up for this thread

[Miscue]

Originally posted by SprayingMango
[B
good lord!! That looks better than the current X-mag!! (I know you were not trying to reinvent it and all) But it still came out better. Great work Jam! [/B]

I concur. That's one sexy beast.

[Gunga]

While this one is very nice, I think it's a bit too similar/derivative of the X-Mag. As such, from a cosmetic standpoint, it may take some sales away from the X-Mag.

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802371

Personally, I'd prefer something quite different than what's out there. Make the models more distinct from one another. Sam's (shartley) slug design from way back when is still one of my favorites. :)

Maybe Sam can modify it and slap the body on an E-Mag gripframe? :)

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=506524

Of course, there's another consideration...how much cost/time these things would take to make.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Gunga
While this one is very nice, I think it's a bit too similar/derivative of the X-Mag. As such, from a cosmetic standpoint, it may take some sales away from the X-Mag.

Who cares? Like anyone can get an Xmag?

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Who cares? Like anyone can get an Xmag?

Ouch!:eek:

[WARPED1]

Not complaining here, just stating the obvious as we as humans are inclined to do,("my, you're tall." "nice weather, isn't it?", or "you seem to have fallen down a 30' well, you ok?")so put the flamethrowers and napalm down!:D

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

This body is my choice also:
<img src="http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802371"

That is so sweet. If it could be produced in higher quantities than the x-mag I would be interested. I like the removeable breech. I like the idea of being able to play with a hopper or my warp.

[WARPED1]

I think make the breech not removable to save on cost, but have warp body available as an option. Just my thought...
Keeping the price under $1000 would be key if ya ask me. Having a removable breach means more milling needed. More milling needed equals more man hours. More man hours equals more money needed by manufacturer to pay. That means a higher pricetag for us.

[nuclear zombie]

How about starting with a simple one piece body like below and add some additional cosmetic milling . Any ideas ?

also I'm looking at the option of doing this through the local machine shop , maybe a single piece sluggo .

[WARPED1]

Pretty cool, I like the idea of no seperate rail, like PTP did with the micro.
I like a good mill job, but what does it really do? Abso lutly nothing(except chrome, that adds 3 BPS!:p ;) ) but that is what the people buying the marker wants. And a cool anno job!

[nuclear zombie]

just testing some different ideas

[poolshark5226]

Just a quick idea: Instead of having removeable breeches, why not just make removeable rises? It can come stock with a no rise or high rise, and have various other, such as the warp adapter, as extras? Just an idea. And, by the way, JAM, as most people have said: WOW

[Jack & Coke]

nuclear zombie, nice!

What program did you use to make those drawings?

[spantol]

Same here--I'd pay X-Mag prices for one of those with the fade reversed, easy. Amazing work, JAM.


Originally posted by LoveMyMagMoreThanYou
This body is my choice also:


That is so sweet. If it could be produced in higher quantities than the x-mag I would be interested. I like the removeable breech. I like the idea of being able to play with a hopper or my warp.

[nuclear zombie]

3d studio max

here is another one , I still really can't find a good pattern that i like :(

[paintballcowboy]

if AGD could find a way to keep the E-Mag under $1000 i know i would see more around. i would buy it!

Hows about AGD gives us a choice of...
one for under $1000 with less milling solid color,
and one with spiffy milling and cool ano for over $1000 (or under if possible:rolleyes: )
the less one can be called the Cowboy E-Mag
and the fancy one can be called the JAM E-Mag

ha ha ha that would be tight:D

[FutureMagOwner]

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=802374


i think that would be the easiest way to make ANY x mag i think the hardest part of the body to mill and make light on the inside of the body

[DiRTyBuNNy]

As much as I like Gunga, I would have to agree and disagree with him on this:


While this one is very nice, I think it's a bit too similar/derivative of the X-Mag. As such, from a cosmetic standpoint, it may take some sales away from the X-Mag.

Ummm..sorry to be the first one to tell you this...but that's the point...if you can make it cheaper, faster and lighter..why not do it? Maybe...just maybe..this could be for AGD what you had hoped the X-Mag could be. Ferrari only makes a certain number of cars each year, much like AGD(E) can only make so many X-MAgs. So make a gun that's similar, maybe minus the removable breech that can be made cheaper, sold cheaper and expand AGD's marketplace with a gun that is almost top of the line, but still is not an X-Mag. An X-Mag will always be an X-Mag..and there are those that wouldn't want this and will pay the money for an X. But why limit yourself to the Model T scenario, make a few different shades of E's to try and cover as many levels of the marketplace you can. Maybe you could a learn a little from Tom's friends, John Rice and Budd Orr. This is their marketing strategy..plain and simple..

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy




Ummm..sorry to be the first one to tell you this...but that's the point...if you can make it cheaper, faster and lighter..why not do it? Maybe...just maybe..this could be for AGD what you had hoped the X-Mag could be. Ferrari only makes a certain number of cars each year, much like AGD(E) can only make so many X-MAgs. So make a gun that's similar, maybe minus the removable breech that can be made cheaper, sold cheaper and expand AGD's marketplace with a gun that is almost top of the line, but still is not an X-Mag. An X-Mag will always be an X-Mag..and there are those that wouldn't want this and will pay the money for an X. But why limit yourself to the Model T scenario, make a few different shades of E's to try and cover as many levels of the marketplace you can. Maybe you could a learn a little from Tom's friends, John Rice and Budd Orr. This is their marketing strategy..plain and simple.. I hafta agree here, leve the X as a top of the line "special addition", then just update the Emasg a bit here and there.

[Kai]

Well, think of it like this. We don't want AGD to turn into another Kingmann, kicking out the exact same gun with a slightly different design, or color job...over and over.

Just a thought.

[FutureMagOwner]

well what i think is they should do the rail and body design but carved nice like jam has it so its easier to mill. and toss out the ace personally to save price etc since it isnt exactly necessary with level 10

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Kai
Well, think of it like this. We don't want AGD to turn into another Kingmann, kicking out the exact same gun with a slightly different design, or color job...over and over.

Just a thought. Yes we do........

[MinimagRockin']

Originally posted by paintballcowboy
if AGD could find a way to keep the E-Mag under $1000 i know i would see more around. i would buy it!


You can buy a current emag at paintballgear.com for $800...

As for making something like this and having the xmag as the "elite" that's kind of silly they both would have the same performance (minus the ACE but you don't need that anyway) they would just have different milling, I would personally take Jam's concept over an xmag, it looks much cooler. I may have said this before but I think AGD may be getting tunnel vision about the xmag. I don't think everybody wants an xmag so much as they want an emag with cool milling that looks like the rest of the current eguns out there. I think people are sick of a rail with a tube on it. It's outdated. So bypassing the whole xmag ordeal and just making a new body/rail combo with some simple cool milling may be wise.

[nuclear zombie]

I like the look of JAM's idea but I doubt it will be much cheaper than the x-mag . You might be able to get it around $200 cheaper at most , which breaks down to: If started now it' will take at least 6-8 months to get these on the market , at a cost slightly less than the x-mag ,so why not order an x-mag now? in my opinion the only way this would work would require a single piece body .

[trutle]

nice photoshop job :) it looks nice.

[paintballcowboy]

MinimagRockin'
Dude you have a point, I just had an idea to share:rolleyes: you know kids these days:D

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by nuclear zombie
I like the look of JAM's idea but I doubt it will be much cheaper than the x-mag . You might be able to get it around $200 cheaper at most , which breaks down to: If started now it' will take at least 6-8 months to get these on the market , at a cost slightly less than the x-mag ,so why not order an x-mag now? in my opinion the only way this would work would require a single piece body . The cost would be considerably less, without removable breaches and less extreme milling. Don't think it would cost near as much as an X.
Going "ACEless" would also cut costs I would wager.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
Ummm..sorry to be the first one to tell you this...but that's the point...if you can make it cheaper, faster and lighter..why not do it? Maybe...just maybe..this could be for AGD what you had hoped the X-Mag could be. Ferrari only makes a certain number of cars each year, much like AGD(E) can only make so many X-MAgs. So make a gun that's similar...

I'm not saying that AGD shouldn't redo the E-Mag's looks. But I don't think it should look so similar to the X-Mag. Despite Manike's best efforts, the X-Mag looks great (I'll poke fun at him while he's coming from the UK to those rebellious colonies for the Long Island big game). :p ;)

One of the complaints of AGD guns is the styling, right? While Jam's design is very nice (and I do like it), I feel that it's too similar to the X-Mag.

Using your Ferrari analogy, let's say the X-Mag is the eqiuvalent of Ferrari's new Enzo - a very limited edition, top end car. Now, Ferrari has other models of course - each of which are quite different in appearance than the Enzo. It wouldn't make sense for Ferrari, or any other car company, to have their various models too simliar to one another...or else they'd do what the Chrysler did in the past. Anyone remember the K-Car? Same car sold across their various brands (Chrysler & Dodge) but other than the badge on the trunk and grill, they looked the same.

Just because a redesigned E-Mag doesn't look like an X-Mag doesn't mean it's ugly. Variety is the spice of life!

[j.t.]

This is what should happen-
An Emag with a ULE body and a removable body rail, but have them fit together to look like one body like JAM posted above. This would save on costs of milling an all new body which doesnt have a rail at all. Possibly some different milling on the new body, different from the current ULE's.

Removable breaches are nice but would really step up the cost of things. Annoes then need to be matched and slots need to be milled in the bodies for the breeches. If you wanna get it cheap your better off to stay away from the removable breeches.

Then have them all annoed to match and offer them in all kinds of different colors.

One more thing to consider is the new trigger mod that may be released. If this came stock on it you could reduce the battery pack size all together and go with one that looks more like a foregrip. :D

[Big_M]

I like this Idea, but why not do all these changes for a regular mag? I think agd could sell a lot more nomal mags if they upgraded them to standard ULE bodies, or something in that matter (kinda like WGP) but that's just my thought, but I would buy it when/if I get the money, better than having to wait for an X-mag

[shartley]

Originally posted by Gunga
Maybe Sam can modify it and slap the body on an E-Mag gripframe? :)
Just for you... I whipped these up real quick for you Gunga. The top is standard center feed, the bottom is warp feed. Of course adjustments would need to be made if it was to be actually made... but it gives a rough idea.

[shartley]

.

[PzYcO]

shartly change your slug so its at an angle like the ULE it looks like poop that way

[shartley]

Originally posted by PzYcO
shartly change your slug so its at an angle like the ULE it looks like poop that way
I don't think it looks like "poop", but to each their own. I did this as a FAVOR for someone who asked NICELY. I would be more inclined to change it even more if I was not TOLD to do it..... :rolleyes: After all, these are just concept images.

[shartley]

.

[shartley]

..

[shartley]

...

[shartley]

Originally posted by PzYcO
shartly change your slug so its at an angle like the ULE it looks like poop that way
Better? I agree it looks better that way, but next time please use a little more politeness when "requesting" something be done.

[shartley]

.

[PzYcO]

heh sowwy, it looks better now... but i ment the angle alligns with the rail :)

[shartley]

Originally posted by PzYcO
heh sowwy, it looks better now... but i ment the angle alligns with the rail :)
No problem. Yeah, things like that can be tweaked along the way. It is the general shape and design that these concept images are meant to capture. Folks are more than free to take what I posted and play with it, make adjustments, or whatever. Have fun. :)

[shartley]

Something more like this?

[PzYcO]

yea, thats looking good :)

[shartley]

hmmmm I don't know about anyone else, but I think folks would definately pick up both and look at them. And if they pick them both up, the chances of a sale would be increased.......

(JAM's is great also though.)

[JT2002]

hey jam, can u make one that, on the back where the bolt and body come together, make the bottom part of the opening extend more so that its not such a harsh angle? i think the blue mag u made looks good, but the one thing i dont like is the really almost vertical angle u made on the bottom. why not extend it out to be a smoother angle with a lesser slope:D i know it looks more like tthe xmag that way but i think it would look that much better. anyways they look great. keep em coming

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Shartley, these bodies look sweet too!
<img src="http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=805066"

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Gunga


I'm not saying that AGD shouldn't redo the E-Mag's looks. But I don't think it should look so similar to the X-Mag. Despite Manike's best efforts, the X-Mag looks great (I'll poke fun at him while he's coming from the UK to those rebellious colonies for the Long Island big game). :p ;)


REBELS RULE!!!!:rolleyes: :D wach out. im gonna be hunting brits, particularly, ghram and manike. but i will be hunting down manike for his xmag. i got to see it. finally an x mag in NY:D

[CrazyLad]

the bodys shartley did look cool.

edit: this thread should also be a classic i think........

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by Gunga
[B]

I'm not saying that AGD shouldn't redo the E-Mag's looks. But I don't think it should look so similar to the X-Mag. Despite Manike's best efforts, the X-Mag looks great (I'll poke fun at him while he's coming from the UK to those rebellious colonies for the Long Island big game). :p ;)

One of the complaints of AGD guns is the styling, right? While Jam's design is very nice (and I do like it), I feel that it's too similar to the X-Mag.

Using your Ferrari analogy, let's say the X-Mag is the eqiuvalent of Ferrari's new Enzo - a very limited edition, top end car. Now, Ferrari has other models of course - each of which are quite different in appearance than the Enzo. It wouldn't make sense for Ferrari, or any other car company, to have their various models too simliar to one another...or else they'd do what the Chrysler did in the past. Anyone remember the K-Car? Same car sold across their various brands (Chrysler & Dodge) but other than the badge on the trunk and grill, they looked the same.


Something I have argued about long and hard, which no one ever seems to remember, is that I have stated that the updated E does not have to completely copy the X-Mag's body. All that I recommend to do is to design a body with a lot of the same flavor as the X. Something that would allow you to put the two bodies next to each other and any person off the street, or the paintball field, would see that two bodies are similar in "styling"...a new AGD Slug that takes some of the cues for the X's styling but in a lot cheaper milled fashion..that's all..maybe tone down the curves a little bit (or a lot) and give it some of the some of the same flavor.

[_Spork_1]

maby they should just sell the "sluggs" they use to make the xmag with and let peopel make their own "xmag" type gun

[maglover52]

Originally posted by shartley
Something more like this?

i think that would be sweet with a orange to black fade anno.

[nuclear zombie]

I don't think it should resemble the x-mag what so ever, if you are going to make something new and fresh then don't copy something else .

Also using any sort of a rail/ body combo , instead of a single piece body defeats the purpose .

_spork_1

maby they should just sell the "sluggs" they use to make the xmag with and let peopel make their own "xmag" type gun

This is a good idea !

[DiRTyBuNNy]

As far as I knew the X's were milled out of a solid block of aluminium with just the bore drilled/milled out of it... I think Simon would be the only one who could provide that kind of info...

[Cryer]

Originally posted by shartley
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=805075

That's what I was thinking. Somewhere along the lines of the Speed. You could also shape the breech area to give kind of a flowing look to it.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nuclear zombie
[B]I don't think it should resemble the x-mag what so ever, if you are going to make something new and fresh then don't copy something else .

Also using any sort of a rail/ body combo , instead of a single piece body defeats the purpose .
[QUOTE]

Why? I don't mind separate rails.

[JT2002]

i think having separate rail makes it look that much better. with out separate rail it really reminds me of a trix body, big and fat

[fcpchop]

wow took me like an hour to read it but sounds really cool

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by JT2002
i think having separate rail makes it look that much better. with out separate rail it really reminds me of a trix body, big and fat Railess ala Micromag. Better IMO.

[JAM]

Well, OK, glad this resurfaced... I have an idea for a new take on it, maybe for later today... But, two things-

1. mainly to Gunga- why shoudln't the E look at all like the X? everyone agrees the X looks good, and to use your car maker analogy, most car makers redesign all their cars to look like they are in the same family.. New honda civic and the new accord for example. Does the Civic bite into the accord's market? maybe a little, but so what? Honda is still making the money. What does AGD care about New EMags biting into the XMag sales a little bit? AGD is still getting the money. I hesitate to call the EMag "affordable", but compared to the X it is. So, doesn't it make more sense to have 1000 $1000 markers out in the players' hands rather than 100 $1400 markers? a redesigned mag to compete with the impulses, matrixes, new shocker, Speed, etc.

And i think the price point could be $999 street- XMag with MUCH simpler milling, minus the ACE, minus the removable breach, limited colors. why not?

2. Shartley- damn, one or two colors please... we get the point ;)

-j

[WARPED1]

Cool, I'd look into one, just need the body tho, unless I sell my current emag and just buy one.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by JAM
mainly to Gunga- why shoudln't the E look at all like the X? everyone agrees the X looks good, and to use your car maker analogy, most car makers redesign all their cars to look like they are in the same family...

Well, as I've said before (and to summarize for those who don't want to go through the whole thread), I do like your design Jam. However I feel that it's cosmetically too similar to the X-Mag. Looking like the X-Mag isn't a bad thing, but why not go in an entirely different direction? To put it another way, pick two people that you find equally attractive from a physical standpoint. One might be brunette, another a redhead. One tall, one short. One light, one dark. Is one 'better' than the other? Not necessarily, even though they look quite different. I think that comparing Jam's E-Mag to the X-Mag is like trying to figure out which of two cute sisters (or brothers for you ladies) is the better looking.

Speaking of sisters...I heard Uncle Phil has some sort of story he could relate to us...? :D ;)

Anyway, back to the subject. When you boil down to it, a Mag is still going basically look like a tube with a handle on it. For me, that's enough of a family resemblance. Besides, it'd still say Airgun Designs on the valve. :)

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

..........and who hasn't dreamed of dating identical sisters?

[WARPED1]

Differen't but similar would be cool. Like the speed, unless you're holding it, you can't tell it's not an IR3.

[JAM]

I think it's more of looking at the younger- but still of legal age- younger sister of a really hot girl...

They are both beautiful, one has more experience and one is cheaper... errr, um, the XMag is nice and the Emag is nice... ;)

I'm working on a new look anyway. new directions are good in general,
j

[fearc7]

You know you guys, the original idea of the xmag was to change the milling every year I believe. So maybe, next year AGD can do them selves a favor and make the design affordable.

Also, do you guys understand why WDP can offer their guns with equal quality milling in much better quantity? It's because WDP was smart enough to buy all the machinery neccesary to build all their guns in the factory, and enough of it to meet demand. With AGD's extra money this year, they should invest in the machinery to do their own work. I strongly disagree with relying on other companies to do a job.

AGD needs to step it up and take a direction of meeting demand. They are one of the biggest paintball companies, its time they start acting like it.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by fearc7
You know you guys, the original idea of the xmag was to change the milling every year I believe. So maybe, next year AGD can do them selves a favor and make the design affordable.

Also, do you guys understand why WDP can offer their guns with equal quality milling in much better quantity? It's because WDP was smart enough to buy all the machinery neccesary to build all their guns in the factory, and enough of it to meet demand. With AGD's extra money this year, they should invest in the machinery to do their own work. I strongly disagree with relying on other companies to do a job.

AGD needs to step it up and take a direction of meeting demand. They are one of the biggest paintball companies, its time they start acting like it. I concur. AGD would make thier cash back if they could bang out those things in bulk.

[sniper1rfa]

Why get rid of the ACE? you know how cheap it is for the components and PCB? dirt.

they already have the programming, and the slot for the ace wont add much to the cost of manufacture. it would take like a couple second tops to mill it.

The way you have to design a body is not by simple looks, but by simply design. one which can be milled using a plan 3-axis mill with little finishing. say, all done with a flat end-mill, maybe with slots or curves done with a ball end-mill. none of the wavy 3-D surface like that used in the x-mag,

think intercepting geometric shapes cut in and/or extruded from the body, with edges which can be filleted with a corner rounding bit.

anything that forms a complex curved surface on all three axi cannot be machined with a specific bit. instead, it must be cut with the toolpath, which is hard and VERY time consuming, and the problem with making the x-mag.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by sniper1rfa
Why get rid of the ACE? Because it's not needed with LX, just a waste of money. It would bring the price down for the consumer.

[shinobidice]

I think that if AGD made ULE-Mags and just made things look a little nicer (not saying they're not) they could make some good profit.

Didnt TK say something about a new lower end gun made out of bits and peices of AGD's stuff, not a new compleyelt different higher than x-mag cost gun?
i swear i read that somewhere.

[OmniM]

simpler...

I know, its a pretty old thread, but can this body be made? There are ALOT of talent here at AO, so I feel nothing is impossible :)

/OmniM

[AGD]

WOW!! Big reaction to this thread. Guys you are forgetting that the Emag is a retired design. We are moving on to the next generation of superguns that will have all the performance of electros with the simplicity and reliablity of mechanics.

Think smaller, lighter and FAST! At home on the tournament field or underwater in a scenario game. Fixable, walkable, and affordable! The Xmag is not producable because of the removable breach. Too many problems with ano and such for a high end marker. Look for a custom slug approach like Nicads in a lean mean fighting machine!

AGD

[OmniM]

WOW!! Big reaction to this thread. Guys you are forgetting that the Emag is a retired design. We are moving on to the next generation of superguns that will have all the performance of electros with the simplicity and reliablity of mechanics.

AGD

But.. but... we have to wait sooooo long for the new toy :D

[jewie27]

Dude,

A revamed E-Mag is pretty much a X-Mag, so you aren't really getting anywhere. I would have to say to get anywhere, revamp the X-Mag which may become the 2005 Mag. (hopefully with direct 4500 psi recharge)

[Dayspring]

And get what, 20 shots out of it?


Dude,

A revamed E-Mag is pretty much a X-Mag, so you aren't really getting anywhere. I would have to say to get anywhere, revamp the X-Mag which may become the 2005 Mag. (hopefully with direct 4500 psi recharge)

[68magOwner]

Dude,
(hopefully with direct 4500 psi recharge)

why would you wish this aoupon AGD? people are already scared off from AGD products because there not LP (yea, cuz, you know, that makes things better adn all) even if a higher input created performance benefits, why, no one can out shoot the valves now anyway, and people already complaighn about not being able to shoot deep into tanks, try telling them that they now HAVE to buy a 5000psi air system and they will still get less shots than any otehr marker with a 3000 psi air system, a 4500 recharge could also be EXTREMELY dangerious if messed up, and with paintball injuries being portrayed as they are now, why create something that could potentially lead to more accidents?

Honestly, as much as i love mags, i thing it would be better for AGD to make a more conventional marker (electrophenumatic) as well as mags. I mean, im shure AGD could make some awesome improvements to todays electrophenumatics. which could make them more money for R&D on mags

[jewie27]

why would you wish this aoupon AGD? people are already scared off from AGD products because there not LP (yea, cuz, you know, that makes things better adn all) even if a higher input created performance benefits, why, no one can out shoot the valves now anyway, and people already complaighn about not being able to shoot deep into tanks, try telling them that they now HAVE to buy a 5000psi air system and they will still get less shots than any otehr marker with a 3000 psi air system, :confused: paintball injuries being portrayed as they are now, why create something that could potentially lead to more accidents?

Honestly, as much as i love mags, i thing it would be better for AGD to make a more conventional marker (electrophenumatic) as well as mags. I mean, im shure AGD could make some awesome improvements to todays electrophenumatics. which could make them more money for R&D on mags
Low Pressure is a myth. Read Tom's posts and also read his hints on 4500 psi recharge.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I think that what he's trying to say is use unregulated air from the tank to recharge your xvalve. Then the xvalve would work as normal. This would require quite beefy plumbing, though. It would also cause some safety concerns.

[Target Practice]

WOW!! Big reaction to this thread. Guys you are forgetting that the Emag is a retired design. We are moving on to the next generation of superguns that will have all the performance of electros with the simplicity and reliablity of mechanics.

Think smaller, lighter and FAST! At home on the tournament field or underwater in a scenario game. Fixable, walkable, and affordable! The Xmag is not producable because of the removable breach. Too many problems with ano and such for a high end marker. Look for a custom slug approach like Nicads in a lean mean fighting machine!

AGD

I don't see why it is so hard for the AO community to put the Emag to rest. I mean, sure, they're schweet. They're wicked. But they're dated. Let it go, and allow AGD to come out with something with a higher schweetness/wickedness factor. Just look at the improvement from the SS body/valve design to the ULE/X-valve setup. They came up with a winner there, and I for one am willing to let an old favorite go in order to get another winner.

Anyhoo, just my $.02.

[spasticsquirrel]

i think that you dont need 18 volts to power a marker. Use a smaller battery in the grip like other markers, but i still like the batter front grip, its something... differmet. My idea is that it should be sold as a marker, a set (all componants), a kit (some componats, like board, solinoid, and microswitc, first aid kit, whatever), and individual peices. Also, i wouldn't mide the 4500 psi valve, as long if it regulated it effectivly, and it acted like a tank regulator so you could get lots of shots off of it, that would be sweet, exept of getting the air saftly to the valve. Either that or a E-valve that has a solinoid to push the air, i wouldn't mind if it was a bit longer.

[Cryer]

WOW!! Big reaction to this thread. Guys you are forgetting that the Emag is a retired design. We are moving on to the next generation of superguns that will have all the performance of electros with the simplicity and reliablity of mechanics.

Think smaller, lighter and FAST! At home on the tournament field or underwater in a scenario game. Fixable, walkable, and affordable! The Xmag is not producable because of the removable breach. Too many problems with ano and such for a high end marker. Look for a custom slug approach like Nicads in a lean mean fighting machine!

AGD
Whatever you guys do, make the bodies like PTP- one-piece, with integrated rail. The split between the rail and body is a big cosmetic fault, IMO...

[jewie27]

Whatever you guys do, make the bodies like PTP- one-piece, with integrated rail. The split between the rail and body is a big cosmetic fault, IMO...

That would make install and removal of the sear difficult.

[Dayspring]

No more difficult than the Xmag. Unscrew the axle, take body off. REAL tough.

[Bad_Dog]

Jam... you are awesome! Those renditions of your idea make me want one soooooooo much...

I agree with the idea, although if that body/rail was put on a mech mag, cut the back half of the regulator off the valve and put one of those caps in it... and regulate the input to the valve, that would be one sweeeet mag while making the body look a little shorter...

what are your ideas?

[Bad_Dog]

I remember awhile ago that someone made a cap for the valve that allowed someone to leave the regulator off, the other side of the story was that the input pressure had to be regulated by an external source... well I figure since most other markers require such external regs... why not a mag?

heres what Jams idea would look like if it had no back half on the valve, although imagine a regulator instead of the battery pack...

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/433/E2.jpg

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

and where do you recomend we put the existing bat pack?

[Buff]

with a ULE trigger pull kit, no need for an 18v battery pack. It would be like an electro trigger on a blowback.

they would then build a reg off the design of the mag reg, and that wold screw in the foregrip.

[MindJob]

simpler...


PERFECT......


TOM,... make with the mill.... :cool:

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

i believe tom said with the ULT it didnt recharge fast enuff for an electro trigger frame because of it dampning the reactivity.

[jewie27]

No more difficult than the Xmag. Unscrew the axle, take body off. REAL tough.

ok smart arse. see you at pbreview.

[Dayspring]

Um, ok? :rolleyes:

[Cryer]

i believe tom said with the ULT it didnt recharge fast enuff for an electro trigger frame because of it dampning the reactivity.
True. As I understand it, the diminished return pressure of the ULT cant reset the sear/plunger assembly fast enough due to its size and weight. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Nick...) The Battery is so large because it is needed to power the over-sized solenoid. The solenoid assembly is so large, because it is needed to work against the high reactivity associated with the stock on/off assembly of the RT valve.

It seems logical, at least to me, that if you start at one end of that chain and make the whole thing lighter, it will work.
IE: Put a ULT on there. That means you wont need such a huge (heavy) solenoid to depress the on/off pin. Using a smaller solenoid lets you use a much smaller battery.

Am I right?

Assuming I am, with some new software/eyes, and a one-piece body/rail combo (ie: PTP's micro mags) the emag could actually be a streamlined, badass contestant in the paintball market.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

mabey I'm the only one feeling this way, but does it not seem like all guns are basically becoming the same, I mean there are so many out there that reguardless of operation type, shoot insanely fast and the paint all comes out the same way. so doesnt it really just come down to milling patterns and looks? sure some are more efficient than others or lighter, but with all the new guns comming out these diffrences are becoming more and more minute between the different guns. right now I think the only thing that is going to set mags ahead for awhile is the level 10 system. sure they are reliable and everything but to be honest, every gun I have owned has been pretty reliable, because I take care of everything. well except that spyder but thats besides the point. agd needs something to set it self apart from the other companies, Im hoping the development of the hAIR trigger will be enough.

[Fanatic]

well, here is my half-a-cent

since its be said the emag design is retired..lets just put revamping it to rest
and build/design from the ground up
starting with the valve...why...i dont think this will change anytime soon..ie.shape
its been made by a different metal...but overall the same shape
so why not build a new marker around that...
put it inside the marker, under it...i dunno
is the design still goin to be tubular?
still goin to run on a massive 18v 9lbs of battery?

all in all i see only the cosmetic part of the design rather than the evolution of the marker...its been more like mill this better or mill that

will the new emag look like the old one? frame and everything

listen to what tom said...smaller, lighter, and faster.

....mmm...nap time