I demand AGD Work on this right now or I'm buying a Cocker!!!! ;)

[Patron God of Pirates]

OK, Just Kidding, calm down ;) :D :P

AGD has been on a relentless product improvement spree. To me overwhelming gratitude I might add. I have something for the list.

El-Fox!? Who is now on these forums, shoots an A-5 with the flatline barrel. This thing is pure sweetness. With the right paint and velocity setting the shots are on a rope. Last weekend we split a case of Evil paint (OK, I was shooting my E-Mag so it wasn't exactly an even split). The shots were as dead on as you can expect from any marker.

I also have a Z-Gripped Galactic Z-Body Mag. Again, with the right settings and paint, it works fantastic.

I'm wondering why the premise of back spin generating devices has been so undersold in paintball. Only Tippmann and some odd ball company (Galactic Systemz) have created working designs.

Given how well all those closed bolt markers have sold on their bogus range claims, you'd think it would do all right. Even without the range bonus, the flat shots are plain as day to see.

I'm sure if any company were able to create a consistent backspin device, it would be AGD. In the interim, why not run some slugs to accept the little device that makes the Z-Body work? They might complain, but nobody is buying those things anyway. At least this way they can make some money selling the spin rubbers and adjustable covers at $33 a pop.

What do people think? An AGD Z-Slug?

Then you can slap on a Y-Grip and and X-Valve and have an X-Y-Z Mag. :)

[joker4hire]

Problem with "backspin" systems, is that you can only fire the marker one way... If you tilt the marker anyother way the paintballs will curve.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Originally posted by joker4hire
Problem with "backspin" systems, is that you can only fire the marker one way... If you tilt the marker anyother way the paintballs will curve.

Sounds like a selling point to me.

[neuromonic]

Problem with "backspin" systems, is that you can only fire the marker one way... If you tilt the marker anyother way the paintballs will curve.

Not if someone got innovative with some bearings and a little weight.

[Vendetta]

I've seen flatlines on cockers. Is there a way to make the sluggo accept these barrels?

[xen_100]

whatever, that would never work, are you gong to have a pendgalum on your barrel to keep it straight up and down? people have enough problems getting those flatline to mount correctly.

another couple problems with backspin barrels are efficiency. you have to have a BIG barrel with smaller paint to get it to work right. that makes it loud and gas hoggy. the other one is being on target at close range. when you fire a flatline the ball goes up and then starts to fall. so at close range you have to aim lower than you would with a normal barrel. I am sure this is something you can get used to, but it is an annoyance.

there is also a practical issue. anything over 100 feet and you can hear and see a ball coming and move. I have never seen someone able to really use the extra range you get with a flatline. by the time the ball gets there, the target moved 3 times.

[GT]

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
Then you can slap on a Y-Grip and and X-Valve and have an X-Y-Z Mag. :)

haha that sounds nice,
Has your buddy ever shot his in a cross wind? try that and watch the ball float away.

jb

[Patron God of Pirates]

Well both systems take advantage of the fact that expanding gasses follow the path of least resistance. Both cause th ball to ride the top of the barrel as air escapes underneath causing the backspin.

Based on that premise I came up with this design which anyone should feel free to steal, produce, test, and give me a free one.

The idea is for air channels cut into the barrels ID, beneath the ball. This should promote airflow by creating an unobstructed path for the air below the ball.

The top and bottom of the barrel should be honed differently. So if you felt the inside the bottom would feel like a boom stick and the top would feel like a stock 98 barrel.

The fist problem I foresee is that barrels tend to not screw into every gun the same, so that up isn't always up. To accommodate for the the barrel would have to rotate right after the treaded section. You could use the bearer concept presented earlier with a weighted section at the bottom of the barrel, or just a 128 point click lock and a jewel on the top to let you know the right side was up.

Seems to me like this would work. It may not improve air efficiency over existing designs, but it may reduce the dramatic bore difference requirement. As long as the barrel were built to a larger bore size it would work with most paint.

I'm sure there is some fundamental flaw in my design that will be pointed out.

[GT]

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates

The fist problem I foresee is that barrels tend to not screw into every gun the same, so that up isn't always up.

easy fix,
just make it an insert barrel system. Allow the inserts to be adjusted, via a notch system. Personally I dont think you will be able to get the rpm high enough on just a barrel coating alone.

jb

[Patron God of Pirates]

Originally posted by gtrsi


easy fix,
just make it an insert barrel system. Allow the inserts to be adjusted, via a notch system. Personally I dont think you will be able to get the rpm high enough on just a barrel coating alone.

jb

That is what the airflow channels are for. The coating is just to encourage backspin behavior.

[*ArKfEaR*]

lol.. i use to have a z body mag.

It was a
Chrome Z body mag.. with black Z bigshot...
black elcipse body rail
z-valve for regular AIR valve
chrome dye double trigger frame with black dye double trigger (also did the G3PB mod where you drill a hole in the corner and attatch a spring to it.. link:http://www.g3pb.com/images_projects/f_m_frame1.jpg)
black dye stickies
chrome kapp ASA
black kapp gass thru
ANS venturi foamie bolt
black kapp dz 2
chrome kapp on/off
PE 68/4500

i loved that setup... hrrm i miss it.. it worked real well too. Definitley one of my favorite mags...great looking too



then i shot a cocker
:D

[El Fox!?]

The ball will float away...it moves to slow...all these myths and whatnot. Always amusing. So lets see...let me address some of these things.

BS1:

While this is true due to the fact that the perfect velocity is between 265 and 275fps, it's more of an optical illusion. At this speed, the spin and the speed of the paintball flys in the straighest flight path. The shots definately look slower, because they fly in a more predictable flight path that the eye can follow easier, even though the ball is only going 5 to 15fps slower.

In fact, a paintball fired from a flatline barrel retains it's initial speed longer than a paintball fired from a normal barrel because of the Magnus Effect, so at ranges of 40 to 60 feet, the Flatline actually is traveling faster than a shot from a normal paintball.

Tippmann did tests slowing an actuall 10 to 15% speed INCREASE between evenly spaced chronographs on a target range. Show me another barrel that can do that...

BS2:
Unless the guy with the flatline is standing about 250 feet away and the guy catching or dodging the paintball is Barry Sanders.

At extreme range, ALL paintballs move slowly enough to dodge easily, no matter the barrel they are fired from. But in typical paintball ranges (50 to 150 feet) these claims are a load of crap.

BS3:
Can't handle a high rate of fire? You guys havent seen me fan my trigger yet, have you? Once installed properly, the flatline can handle E-Grips, RTs, and E-bolts.

Where most people get this idea is when they chop paint in the bolt because they are outshooting thier hoppers or becuase they failed to properly install the flatline, resulting in a small gap inside the adapter which can chop paint.

BS4:
Not acurate, huh? Again, this is BS. The flatline, when properly installed, shooting good quality small bore paintballs, and shot with the proper technique is MORE accurate than the stock barrel.

The thing is that people will run out and get a flatline, throw it on without readying the directions, dump some brass eagle paintballs into the hopper, crank the velocity as high as it can go, and then shoot the marker with it tilted at an angle to the right or left.

The marker MUST be fired with the marker straight up and down, tilting the marker left or right will result in curving shot that can go around objects in the field, which can come in handy, but make it seem to be inaccurate to the untrained user. Or great for hitting people behind bunkers!?

If you shoot crappy paint, expect crappy results. Paintballs with pronounced seams, paintballs with oily shells, paintballs with dimples or large bore paintballs will result in bad to horid results.

Also, keep the barrel cleaned religiously. Between games you should sgueegie the barrel out even if you didn't break any paintballs. A dry and clean flatline is necessary in order for the barrel to maximize the back spin effect.

Another thing to keep in mind is that due to the spin the flatline puts on the ball, everything you've already learned about shooting paintballs is wrong. The flight path is different and you have to become adjusted to this.

Also, wind can have a different effect on your shots due to the spin that the flatline puts on the ball. It's definately not an all weather barrel. But then again, wind affects all paintBALLS or other such things that are not areodynamic.

To many myths are bad juju. Think about all those people who ran out into the street trying to avoid a black cat only to be obliterated by a zamboni machine. Well...I made that up..but you know what I mean--right?

[Patron God of Pirates]

Pages 1 through 5 of the flatline usage manual are brought to use today by my good friend, El-Fox!?.

Thanks Rod, but we know all that stuff. The complaints that have been made here are that the barrel is loud (true) and that it reduces gas efficiency (true).

As far as the dodging thing goes, I've dodged paint at 30 ft, so that's not entirely true. And the "typical paintball ranges" really depend on what you play. As far as I'm concerned "typical paintball ranges" are 10 to 30 ft.

That being said. What you wrote is true, and that's why I started this thread.

I'd like to see the data on the 15% velocity increase though. That doesn't make sense to me.

PS- I have a cousin who was obliterated by a Zamboni in exactly that fashion you prick! :(

[Natray]

Originally posted by El Fox!?

BS3:
Can't handle a high rate of fire? You guys havent seen me fan my trigger yet, have you?

I have and I can tell you. El Fox has a sick trigger finger.


Originally posted by El Fox!?

Think about all those people who ran out into the street trying to avoid a black cat only to be obliterated by a zamboni machine.

Those poor poor people....


Anyways, good points Fox. Patron do you have your Z-mag ready? Can't wait to see it in action.

[El Fox!?]

Ill try to find that.

[Patron God of Pirates]

It's been ready on multiple occasions. The whole leaking gas through foregrip thing has it shelved right now. Don't think I'll have time to get it going for this weekend. But I'm on an E-Mag kick anyway.


Originally posted by Natray


I have and I can tell you. El Fox has a sick tigger finger.



Those poor poor people....


Anyways, good points Fox. Patron do you have your Z-mag ready? Can't wait to see it in action.

What in the world is a stick trigger finger?

[Vendetta]

I'm concerned "typical paintball ranges" are 10 to 30 ft.

Why would you need a flatline at this range? At 10 feet I can hit the fleas of a dogs nose with my stock minimag barrel?


there is also a practical issue. anything over 100 feet and you can hear and see a ball coming and move. I have never seen someone able to really use the extra range you get with a flatline. by the time the ball gets there, the target moved 3 times.

Move three times in the 1/2 secound it takes the paintball to travel 100 feet. Only in the Matrix buddy;)

[Natray]

By the way I still have your emag and your clasic rt


[i]But I'm on an E-Mag kick anyway.
What in the world is a stick trigger finger? [/B]

and I said a sick tigger finger..... but it fixed now.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Originally posted by Vendetta
Move three times in the 1/2 secound it takes the paintball to travel 100 feet. Only in the Matrix buddy;)

But I can move once in the .16 seconds it takes for a paintball to travel 30 ft. ;) I didn't tell you I was The One?

Yeah. It's probably more of an "It just seemed that way" situation. But people do dodge paint on 3 man air ball fields, which end to end aren't very long.

And at 250 ft.! You can shoot at me all day at 250 ft. You hear that Fox!? All day :p

[El Fox!?]

Is your back to me?;)

[Patron God of Pirates]

LOL.... Yes. That, and I'll look suspiciously like Gary. But don't let that stop you. Keep shooting no matter what I say.

[El Fox!?]

Alright, gotcha. I can do that!

[Natray]

Would you two mind if I got that on video?

[GT]

Originally posted by El Fox!?
The ball will float away...

have you owned a flatline before?

if there was the slighest crosswind at the point where the backspin would create 'lift' then that ball was gone.

Sorry, dont call BS unless you know what you are talking about.

jb

[El Fox!?]

Have I owned one before? I thought it was clear that I do and it is what I used. Seeing as I have never seen my ball "float" away nor has any other Tippmann user that I know or have spoken to hasn't either I will continue to speak about what I "know" pertaining to my flatline.

[*ArKfEaR*]

Flatlines are ugly and hype... my z-bodies backspin worked great when it did but it usually didnt so i just removed it and just had a nice body that took cocker barrels.

[El Fox!?]

...Ok?

[ERut]

From what I've seen the increased range isn't effective because the balls are not going fast enough to break. They just kind of float down.

[El Fox!?]

I addressed that with my myth post, but that happens when the person is simply too fat away (we are talking 250+ feet)I'll give you an example of what you are talking about and that person thinking the same thing. Basicaly, one of the people we were playing last weekend was taking his shots at me. I stepped out from cover letting him shoot at me. His balls were harmlessly falling at my feet and one bounced off my shoulder. I lifted, aimed---spat! I was too far away for him, while on the other hand he was well with in my clutches. You can be over zealous because it does shoot so very far. Farther then most people can grasp if they havent seen it. But the non breaking point I would guess is 220+ plus feet. It can to depend on the ball it's self. The first week I had it I was shooting marbs. A few times I hit people and they didnt break. But that was easily 250 feet ( and even in terrible wind. Which does affect it, however they don't float away unless you coat them with flubber:rolleyes: ) Last weekend I used evil and all my shots that I actualy did hit from great distances broke. No one ever claimed it to be an all weather barrel. However, reaching out and touching someone from an absurd distance (for paintball) is always fun.

[TheJester]

another thing w/ the flatline that i've noticed, is yes, the range of level flight is longer, but the effective range is still the same cause they seem to just hover and you can dodge them, or they have not velocity to break. another thing about the flatline, is if there is any wind at all, even a slight breez, they seem to take off and will go every which way, most of the time curving up.

[El Fox!?]

Oooooo well, I guess I typed all that myths things for nothing. :(

[than205]

Not flaming you...just some possible reading.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on on some of the posts here:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64669

[joeyjoe367]

My very first 'mag was a Z-bodied mag.


...Man, was that thing SWEET or what? I could shoot all the way across some of the smaller fields I've played on. Geeze, it was awesome to be able to point my gun directly at what I was shooting with no arc at all, and be able to tag guys off the break with trees hanging overhead. Man, I loved that thing.

Honeslty, the only thing keeping me from going back to a z-body is the fac that they're powerfeed. I don't like how it balances the gun. I like low-profile/center-balanced.

If they made a hopper-right version that accepted warp feeds... that would be even sweeter. Turn that puppy side ways and shoot around and over people's bunkers :) I couldn't do that with a grav-fed hopper because you'd only get 1 shot, then you have to tilt the hopper back up to feed another ball :)

Anyway, I'm 100% for AGD working on a backspin automag. It's always been in the back of my mind :).

I've always debated; for my next gun, would it be an e-mag, or a Z-bodied RT? Well, seeing as my current RT is going to get a trigger-job in the near future (A la ULE Trigger :)) It looks like Z-body or backspin of some sort is in the works for me :)




...and read El-FOx's posts. He speaks the truth.

[Patron God of Pirates]

In what little experience I have with both the Z-Body and Flatline, Fox's statements are true.

Rod- Your a seasoned netizen, so I don't think I have to tell you that about 50% of people responding to threads read only the first post. So don't feel like your spitting into the wind. They likely just didn't read your Myths post. Plus it was very long - allot of people just skip uber posts.

-------------------
Like JJ said, I would love to see an AGD backspin body that took Warps. I have a Z-Body now, but I have a few problems with it. Mostly that the Lv.10 bolt does not fit in it.

If AGD does this they have a list of guaranteed purchases from me. My future project mag(?):

SLM LVX Y W Z ULER RT-Mag

Thats: Super Light Mechanical, Level 10, Y Gripped, Warped, Z-Bodied, ULE Railed, Retro, Mag.

The lightest, fastest firing, lightest on paint, most comfortable, lowest profile, worst on gas, mechanical marker on the planet! :D

[spydervenom]

how many people shoot exactly straight up and down though? that sounds wierd but you know what i mean.


but if you like the barrel, i guess you would have the time and money to waste to train yourself to shoot it right.



ps...whats the magnus effect? some sort of effect that defy's the law of conservation of energy?

[Patron God of Pirates]

The backspin on the ball controls the vortex shedding in such a way as to create lift. I believe thet is the Magnus effect, but I could be wrong their.

It's the speed increase I don't buy into just yet. For exactly the reason you just stated.

[joeyjoe367]

Yeah, that's magnus effect.

[spydervenom]

i just did a search on it and i found that it just has to do with spinning of sphears and the directions they travel basically(what you said)

nothing about speed...

[Vendetta]

It's the speed increase I don't buy into just yet. For exactly the reason you just stated

I don't think they claim in increase of velocity, that's imposible, but I can see the spinning might make the balls cut through the air with less resistance. Thus making them apear to move faster than regular paintballs.

[askman]

I also have the zbody, which I just picked up, with emag valve and level x. The level x bolt is slightly bigger than the hole in the stainless steel insert. I used a reamer I had(it was an old 16 gauge shotgun chamber reamer that I had lying around from my gunsmithing days, not likely to be availble to most people) and ream it out. The aluminum body itself is big enough for the level X bolt. You can actually see a lip between the SS insert and body. I think you should be able to fix it with half inch or 5/8" dowel wrapped with sand paper. I've also heard people sanding the bolt down. (you only need to take off .005" diameter, so it is pretty small amount)

I have also installed elcd grip that I had lying around, and is in the process of testing it. it is nice compact package, and have not decided on the feed system yet.

as regard to velocity of PB with spin, while the velocity will not increase, it will fly more efficiently. Vortex shedding robs velocity(it takes energy to move the pb side ways, ) With magnus effect, vortex shedding is eliminated, allowing the ball the retain more energy over distance. So, it will be at higher velocity compared to normal ball without spin at a given range.

[hitech]

Originally posted by askman
With magnus effect, vortex shedding is eliminated...

Are you sure about this? I have not been able to find ANYONE who has tested this. I have been unable to find any conclusive research on the effects of spin on vortex shedding (and I've LOOKED). Maybe you could point me in the right direction?

[Surreal]

what about a halo strength ball detent, coming from the top of the gun down into the chamber (to get the backspin started as the ball is pushed past the detent), coupled with an undertow bolt (www.imperialpaintball.com .. i'm POSITIVE you can get bill to make them for mags), and if that's not enough, do the thing with the rough finish on the top of the barrel (no porting on the barrel).. that would definitely put enough backspin on the ball...

[spydervenom]

i dont think that ball detent idea would work really...but it might help out if you are doing all of that stuff.