Quad O-ring vs. Standard O-ring (mag on/off assembly)

[Jack & Coke]

Why does the RT, Retro, and X-Valve use a urethane "o-ring" for the on/off?

http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/parts/Pinori_2.jpg

...while the E-Valve and XMAG use a "Quad" o-ring?

http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/parts/quad_med.jpg

What's the difference?

Advantages?

Disadvatnages?

Why not use a "Quad" o-ring in ALL mags (mechanical as well as E)?

I use a Quad in my Retro, but I'm not sure if it really makes a difference. Does it?

Just curious... thanks

[steveg]

quad-rings were mostly designed to reduce friction, compared
to o-rings but here, I suspect that it is also used to
alter on/off timing. If you look at the two side-by-side
you will notice that an o-ring seals on the center of it's
thickness were as a quad-ring seals near its edge.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by steveg
quad-rings were mostly designed to reduce friction, compared
to o-rings but here, I suspect that it is also used to
alter on/off timing. If you look at the two side-by-side
you will notice that an o-ring seals on the center of it's
thickness were as a quad-ring seals near its edge.

Reduce friction? Isn't there more "material" in contact with the on/off pin when using the Quad O-ring as oppossed to a regular "round" o-ring?

of/off timing? Couldn't that be acheived by just altering the length of the on/off pin itself?

Does it add to "reactivity"? If so, why not install them on the mechanical mags?

Why is it used only on Electro mags?

[steveg]

Actually friction is a "dimensionless" value it is not
related to surface area.

an o-ring works because it's being squeezed between the two
surfaces that it's sealing.

a quad-ring seals in part because of that squeeze and in part
and because it is deformed by the (air) pressure against it

the quad shape makes it much more flexable compared to
a standard o-ring so it grips the pin more softly.

The quad-ring does change the timing assuming you use
the same pin If I'm right that this was the intent,
perhaps AGD didn't want yet another pin length.

[Jack & Coke]

But why do all this if the on/off is powered by a powerful solenoid?

Why NOT do it for mechanical mags also? Would mech's benefit as well (if indeed there are benefits)?

Why do mech's get the o-ring and E's get the quad? If the Quad is that much better, why not Quad for all mags?

[sniper1rfa]

the quad would freeze if you were using a classic (running co2, which is why they still make then).

[Tunaman]

The quad oring was designed to help increase battery life on the emag...and it does just that.

[BlackVCG]

The correct answer:

The quad o-ring moves the seal point to the top and bottom of the o-ring. Regular cast 90 durometer urethane o-rings (like the one used for the on/off top in non-E-Mag valves) have a cast mark in the center of the o-ring. This cast mark can catch the pin and keep it from pushing back out to reset the gun in E-Mode. If you use these o-rings, you'll get what appears to be bolt stick, but it's actually the on/off pin sticking. You have to put it in manual mode and pull the trigger to reset the pin.

Casting the o-ring the way it is for the quad o-ring eliminates the cast mark and being a lower durometer rating, it doesn't have the pin stick problem.

[Jack & Coke]

Excellent!

[steveg]

So why doesn't pin stick happen on manual mags or even
hyperframe mags (like mine, NEVER happened)

what about E-mags make it a unique problem?

[Jack & Coke]

BlackVCG,

If you had both o-rings (normal and quad), which would you put in your mechanical mag?

[Jack & Coke]

If it's true what people have posted about the "less friction" and "better seal" properties of the quad o-ring:

Has any of the AGD techs ever tried using this "QUAD" style o-ring for the Level 10 carriers?

Since it's sometimes tricky to find a balance between:

-> air-tight seal without leaking

and

-> minimized friction

for the Level 10 (that's why you have so many different carriers), would a quad o-ring help?

[Gunga]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Has any of the AGD techs ever tried using this "QUAD" style o-ring for the Level 10 carriers?

The quad & RT reg seat o-rings (used in the L10 carriers) are different sizes. The quad is a lot smaller.

Besides, the casting mark on the urethane oring gets worn down by the power piston of the L10 bolt through use - thus the leak down the barrel when you break in the oring in your L10 carrier.

Additionally, if you were to go to a quad, the vent point would change slightly and might require a change to the L10 bolt design, however slight.

[Jack & Coke]

I know the quad is a lot smaller. But what if you had the "right" size quad?

Other than the casting mark and location of the seal (edge vs middle), are there any other benefits to using the quad? (i.e. less friction, better seal?)

thanks gunga:)

[Dayspring]

I see somebody is in need of Tom's "Oring talk." :D

[steveg]

What do you mean "If it's true":eek: :mad:

;)

Actually I have a 009 quad-ring that I bought for my matrix,
never even thought to try it on lvl-10

I'll give it a try later and report back.:cool:

manufacturers info on quad-rings
http://www.mnrubber.com/factbook/4-3.htm

see I didn't make that stuff up!

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Dayspring
I see somebody is in need of Tom's "Oring talk." :D

Yes!

We need it!

Please show us the way to this "Oring talk".

Is it a thread or was it a "talk" at some event?

[Jack & Coke]

What size is the Level 10 Power Tube O-Ring?

http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/parts/smlor_med.jpg

What would be an equivalent Quad o-ring size?

[steveg]

Ooops as it turns out the powertube o-ring is a
#008 not #009 as I thought I'll have to visit
my favorite o-ring store on monday.

o-rings and quad-rings are generally interchangable
unless specficially designed for a quad-ring(see above link)

darned if I can find that post, but mostly it talked about
how urethane and teflon o-rings were best for mags

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


Yes!

We need it!

Please show us the way to this "Oring talk".

Is it a thread or was it a "talk" at some event?

It was bar talk at the megameet that ended up being lobby talk...I really hope Tom goes over it again in the tech conference, because although I now have a better understanding, I would really like to have a "good" understanding.

[Dayspring]

One NOT tainted by Guiness? :D


Originally posted by Muzikman


It was bar talk at the megameet that ended up being lobby talk...I really hope Tom goes over it again in the tech conference, because although I now have a better understanding, I would really like to have a "good" understanding.

[Muzikman]

Hey, I had not had that many by then...

btw, for those interested, this is pretty close to Tom's explanation...you can then act REALLY smart if you go to the tech class....and who knows, you might even impress the girls with this knowlege.

http://www.usseal.com/orings/oring_function_1.html

[Jack & Coke]

I recently received a sample 008 quad o-ring in the mail.

I installed it in my level 10 carrier. (2.0)

So far so good...

I have not had the chance to test it out at the chrono yet, but for some odd reason the trigger feels great! I would not have expected the trigger feel to change. It "seems" crisper... I need to shoot it a lot more (break it in) to be certain.

Observed so far:

- able to go up 1/2 size in carrier 2.0 (i.e. looser fit = less friction) compared to standard Level 10 008 carrier o-ring.

- change in trigger feel... not sure why, but it does feel different (more crisp and more reactive)

- vent position changed so now I have to use 3-5 shims in the power tube in order to get the bolt to reset if blocked.

- I suspect the quad o-ring will wear faster since it is not 90 durometer urethane. I wonder what the BEST o-ring material would be for this type of application??? Teflon maybe?

I'm very busy these next few weeks, so I won't be able to test it out for a while... sorry. :(

[SIGSays]

cuz i got da magic stick...

i dunno but good question.. i wondered the same thing, but i guess it's the whole valve... they're different

[Mossman]

jack & coke rules.

Definately get back to us with your findings, you are one of the few people who actually does and reports the cool things they say they are gonna do. Thats why: jack & coke rules.