maybe mags aren't for me- a final plea for help

[impostal22]

i've littered this one section of AO with tons and tons of tech help, cuz my gun hasn't been behaving for me. every game something new becomes a problem. today there were too many and now i need your help, badly. here is what happened..

problem #1:
i am running my mag on co2 and it's my only option, so i bought an aci 6 stage xchamber and a palmer stabilizer. macroline runs from the ASA to the xchamber, then to the stabilizer. it's set up correctly, i know that much. here's the problem though..whenever i take the tank off, i think the air stays built up inside the stabilizer and xchamber, and as i take it off it leaks a LOT of air (and the on-off pin on the tank never can turn off). so i take it off and right at the end it like pops off with a LOUD woosh of co2. this woosh sends the o-ring flying back onto the tank threading. i dunno if this has any bad affects, other than the strong possibility of constantly busting an o-ring when taking the tank off. not to mention it's really scary taking the tank off with that loud woosh. i've tried shooting as i take the tank off, but it doesn't help. which leads me to problem #2...

problem #2:
i originally had the level 10 set up fine. it worked for an unknown speed, and then i chronoed it around 300 and it stopped working (the bolt would shoot like a normal bolt). so i cranked it down a little, and now the bolt sticks a lot. here's the order of what happens. first the bolt starts shooting like it's hitting resistance (you know the sound), when there isn't any resistance whatsoever. then, after i do that few times, the bolt sticks back and when i pull the trigger nothing happens. so then when i take the tank off i have even MORE built up air in the gun and it ruined at least one of my o-rings. what velocities are the long/medium/small spring meant for? but this problem of the bolt never leaving the first stage of slow movement really is becoming a problem. it always leads to the bolt sticking, too.

problem #3:
the damn foamie in the bolt flew off a few days ago and i superglued it back on, shot like 1000 shots through it, and then it flew off again. damn foamie doesn't wanna stay on!!!!!!!!

problem #4:
the mag is becoming a lot of trouble for me but i still love it. playing becomes a very large frustration, though. PLEASE HELP ME!

[than205]

Problem 1: Yes, there will be alot of co2 stored in the setup you have. On the ASA that you screw the bottle into, there usually is a small vent hole on the side. What has/had be suggested to me in the past is to screw the bottle out (or a lttle past) till it starts to bleed the co2 out of the system. (exp. chamber and stab) When you get to that point on the venting the pin on the tank should be closed. When the marker is empty then you finish un-screwing the tank. A suggestion would be to get an on/off tank valve or ASA. Then you can shoot the marker dry with the tank shut off.

Problem 2: I think you will want to put a couple shims in. (this worked for me and as I recall I had the same problem) Plus, I oil the L10 quite a bit. And/or head over to the trouble shooting thread.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43538
You can try different springs. The longer the spring the higher the velocity you would prefer. I believe.


Problem 3: I think cleaning the surface thoroughly where you glue the foamie is key. I would think nail polish remover will cover the the cleaning aspect of the old glue off the bolt. I don't think you want to use it on the foamie.
Make sure you let it dry really well before you try to glue it back on.

[tmnothing]

Use the medium/long spring for velocities around 270-300 and the short spring for velocities around 250. Like impostal22 said, oil your gun like crazy. It sounds to me like you dont have enough oil in there and that's why you're getting the "pfft" noise as if the bolt is obstructed. The longer the spring is, the softer the bolt will be on paint. When you have the longer springs in you need to have the velocity up higher. If you have having bolt stick problems you need to raise it.

[Frank (the spank)]

For a setup like that.... you NEED a dump valve. It's as if you have a 2nd tank on your gun, you need to dump that gas before you remove the tank.

The foamie.. well ytou said 1000 shots, was that dry fire? As said before, make sure the surface is clean before you put a new one on, you are using a NEW foamie right? They're cheap, use a new one of you aren't. Use nail polish remove to clean the bolt before you glue a new one on.

The lvl X is going to be a pain from the start, you're gonna need to tune it.

[xen_100]

problem number one is really not a mag problem. you need something like this to allow you to tottaly empty the xchamber and the valve.

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/xen_100/AIR_valve.jpg

[impostal22]

here are responses to your responses, but anyone can answer if you know the answer!

xen_100: what is that?

frank: what is a dump valve, where can i get one and how much do they cost? yes i used a new foamie, and it was like 20 shots dry fire, 980 with paint. where can i get a new foamie, i don't have any more new ones.

tmnothing: using the longer spring would just cause more bolt stick right? what happened was i chronoed it at 270 with the medium spring, and then i did the squeegee test and it wouldn't stop on the squeegee :rolleyes: . where shuold i oil my gun to prevent the constant PFFTing?

than205: i'll look into that, thanks.

EDIT: frank, is this a dump valve? click here (http://www.paintball-discounters.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=1132&p_catid=97&sid=5bW2dL0lj2gq7jE-18103518327.b4)

[Frank (the spank)]

Thats it! Slide check... bleed valve.. dump valve.. ya get the picture, hehehe. And that one is only $20, will suit ya well. :)

You can get new foamies from the AGD store, key is to clean the bolt completly and maybe pick up a fresh bottle of super glue. Put a drop on the foamie and quickly spread it all over the surface and stick it to the bolt as straight as you can. Press down on it, and let it dry for awhile. Should last you a LONG time.

[impostal22]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
Thats it! Slide check... bleed valve.. dump valve.. ya get the picture, hehehe. And that one is only $20, will suit ya well. :)

You can get new foamies from the AGD store, key is to clean the bolt completly and maybe pick up a fresh bottle of super glue. Put a drop on the foamie and quickly spread it all over the surface and stick it to the bolt as straight as you can. Press down on it, and let it dry for awhile. Should last you a LONG time.


thanks for the foamie help! where's the bleed valve screw into anyway, just in case it doesn't come with instructions?

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by impostal22
where's the bleed valve screw into anyway, just in case it doesn't come with instructions? Somewhere inline between the valve and tank. I like mine between the tank and SS line.

[Drizit]

xen_100's setup looks like it would be the most efective if you had a smart valve on the tank, you could then shut off the tank and bleed the whole system. it's going to be a bit more expensive to do then just puting in that slide check that you saw though. and all he has is a slide check on a "T" joint.

put a bit of oil in the ASA before you put your tank on, or unhook the macro line and put it in there. I's say the ASA would be the easyist though.

[impostal22]

Originally posted by ChucktheMAGician
Somewhere inline between the valve and tank. I like mine between the tank and SS line.

if i wanted to get the air out of the x chamber and the stabilizer i should put it after the tank but before the xchamber, right?

[impostal22]

Originally posted by impostal22
here are responses to your responses, but anyone can answer if you know the answer!

xen_100: what is that?

frank: what is a dump valve, where can i get one and how much do they cost? yes i used a new foamie, and it was like 20 shots dry fire, 980 with paint. where can i get a new foamie, i don't have any more new ones.

tmnothing: using the longer spring would just cause more bolt stick right? what happened was i chronoed it at 270 with the medium spring, and then i did the squeegee test and it wouldn't stop on the squeegee :rolleyes: . where shuold i oil my gun to prevent the constant PFFTing?

than205: i'll look into that, thanks.

EDIT: frank, is this a dump valve? click here (http://www.paintball-discounters.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=1132&p_catid=97&sid=5bW2dL0lj2gq7jE-18103518327.b4)

thought i'd up this so the questions don't get lost.

[xen_100]

the difference with mine is that you dont have any air going through the slide while you fire. slide checks can be a point for air restrictions. they have VERY small holes for th eair to flow through. this solves it. you can just put it in-line too.

[impostal22]

what exactly does the slidecheck valve screw into? and where should it go? does it matter?

also, very important..how would a slidecheck valve work if the co2 tank is still plugged in and flowing when you use it? if the slidecheck JUST lets the air out then i don't think it'll solve my problem, because the co2 tank will keep feeding air when you use the slidecheck. i hope i'm wrong..

[ChucktheMAGician]

Ok I didn't read the first post good enough. Just get one of these and screw it between your ASA and Co2 tank. It will be alot easier to install than the slide check. http://www.xpaintball.com/smarparpreso.html

[xen_100]

Originally posted by ChucktheMAGician
Ok I didn't read the first post good enough. Just get one of these and screw it between your ASA and Co2 tank. It will be alot easier to install than the slide check. http://www.xpaintball.com/smarparpreso.html

that will not bleed that line. all it does is turn the co2 tank on and off.

it depends on how you set the slidecheck up. if you put it inline (hose-slidecheck-valve), then it is going to be on in one direction. when you slide it, it will bleed the valve of air, but it will hold the pressure in the line. You wouldn't even have to take the tank off to clean or service the valve at all.

If you do it like I did, then it will seal up the valve when it is closed and it will vent the valve and the tank in the open position. On mine, I did it for the purpose of bleeding a line on the maxflo tank that I will eventually be putting on this gun. (the maxflo tank has an on/off, but no way to bleed the line.)

[ChucktheMAGician]

All he would have to do is close the valve, shoot it a time or 2 to lower remaining line pressure, and unscrew the tank or valve to bleed the rest of the pressure. I'm trying to find an easier solution to getting the line bled since he's not familiar w/ slide checks. Getting an on/off ASA would be easier too but I wasn't sure what drop/cradle he was using.

[tmnothing]

If you are having bolt stick problems with the long spring, go to the medium spring. If you are having bolt stick problems with the medium spring, go up half a size carrier. A LX runs about 75psi higher than a level7 (an AGD tech told me that) thats why you need to turn up the velocity when you install it.

Now there are always exceptions but you shouldnt have trouble getting your mag to about 270-300 with the medium spring. If you are having bolt stick problems at those kinds of speeds your carrier is too tight. I havn't not extensively used the long spring in my kit, I've got the medium spring (cut) in both of my mags and the minimag I have NO problems with. I keep it around 290fps and I have not had one bolt stick problem (1.0/no shims). The ULE mag I havn't used on the field yet so I have yet to chrono her.

Now you say that you had it at 270fps and the squeegie test wouldnt work. How many shims do you have installed? The AGD techs say that you want to have the least amout of shims that you can get away with (without it leaking). Also dont make the mistake I made when I was installing my first LX. I was doing the squeegie test by putting it in the front of the body (without a barrel) and I thought that the bolt was hitting way too hard but it turned out that the air blast was what was shooting the squeegie out. I put my finger in the breech and it worked like a charm.

[impostal22]

i have included a pic of my dropforward. anyone know if there is an on/off replacement for it? i would just get a dropforward that has an ASA with it, except the way my gun's set up, they wouldn't fit. look at my signature, trent lott is holding basically what my gun is now. see how close the dropforward and expansion chamber are? that's why i don't think any new dropforward would work. but maybe there IS a dropforward w/ an on/off that i could use???

chuck: i'll probably use that if i can't find an on/off assy for my dropforward. if i used that, could i take the tank off then put the attachment in the "on" position and let the air bleed out of the ASA?

xen_100: i'm not really too worried about bleeding the air out because i usually can shoot it out. the reason i'm worried now is because i'm trying to fix the level 10 and i keep getting my bolt stuck so i *CAN'T* shoot the air out.

there is no real reason to get a slidecheck if i can just shoot the air out right?

tmnothing: i'm using two shims. i think my problem is in my o-ring carrier though...and about the squeegee test failing, maybe i had the squeegee itself too far back...i'm not sure. the thing is, though, the bolt sticks BACK not forward.

TO ALL: where should i oil to keep the gun from PFFTing when there's no resistance? would shooting a lot of oil through the ASA do the trick or should i manually oil some things, too?

[impostal22]

pic of dropforwad.. http://www.skanline.com/detail_zoom.asp?pid=http://www.skanline.com/images_products/LN2DFLA00BK&desc=LAPCO+DROP+FORWARD+BLACK

[than205]

Every play day I oil the end of the bolt stem (where it mates to the carrier o-ring). And I send some through the ASA.
It does sound like you may need to go up a carrier size.

An option for you would be this:
http://www.smartparts.com/spsmartvalve.htm

[e mag]

i used to run my mini on co2 and it worked fine. my setup was co2 with smartvalve going into a male palmer stab and then to the valve. i never had a problem with liquid co2, but the stab would get very cold. if you have a smartvalve just turn it off when your done, then slowly unscrew the tank while you shoot.

[impostal22]

ok..about the female valve that you screw the tank into...does that always stay screwed into the asa or does it unscrew with the co2 tank?

scroll up everyone, cuz there's lots still not solved :(

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by impostal22
ok..about the female valve that you screw the tank into...does that always stay screwed into the asa or does it unscrew with the co2 tank?

It could stay either place you wanted it to. It would probably stay in the ASA if you held the tank while unscrewing. I would leave it on the tank and unscrew it from the ASA. That way it would be just like having a Co2 tank w/ an on/off. Degassing the gun is not as complex as you're making it. After having installed the valve and played some, turn the valve off, shoot a little, and unscrew the valve from the ASA. Unscrewing the tank from the valve would defeat the purpose of having the valve and release more Co2 because you're messing w/ the pin valve again.

[sniper1rfa]

i find the purge valves at the bottom of this (http://www.cooper-t.com/miscellaneous.html) page to be very useful. they go anywhere you have a spare port (put it on a T fitting if you dont have anywhere else. you can get the fitting from a hardware store, bring your gun). they just bleed the air when you unscrew the little nob. :)

[bluefan101]

I run CO2 on my mag with the screw on Smart Parts valve. The screw on valve will stay attached to your tank. Make sure you get it on tightly. When you are ready to remove your tank, turn the valve off, dry fire a couple of shots and when there is no more air firing your gun, remove the tank w/valve from your asa. As before mentioned you should have a small hole in your asa, known as a blow off valve, to remove any small amounts of air remaining. Any on/off valve is going to be an o-ring saver. The Smart Parts valve is the easiest and probably most cost effective for your situation.

[impostal22]

that's true chuck, except i don't play on a field, so after a tank runs out of air, i'd wanna take the on/off off and put it on the new tank. would that work..? or will the on/off not remove easily?

ok..away from the damn co2 tanks for now (i'll just get that on/off thing). unless you guys can think of a dropforward that would fit on my gun and not get in the way of the expansion chamber (see sig pic for pic of gun). onto the level 10..

where should i oil to keep the gun from PFFTing when there's no resistance? would shooting a lot of oil through the ASA do the trick or should i manually oil some things, too? than says where the bolt meets the o-rings and in the ASA, anyone else have any ideas?

and will oiling it really stop the bolt from PFFTing?

[bluefan101]

I've actually never oiled my ASA, but you should spend time oiling inside the valve. The blue ring where the bolt meets up is one, not an important one, but why not. The main ones are your
1. on/off assembly. Remove the top portions of your on/off pin leaving only the two o-rings inside. Usually a drop or two of oil makes sure that your pin is well lubed.
2. The small hole markings on your reg. These ensure that your spring pack and reg parts are lubed.
Make sure that you dry fire your gun a few times before adding your barrel or adding paint. Excess oil will be shot out and you don't want that getting in your barrel or getting on your balls.

[impostal22]

Originally posted by bluefan101
The small hole markings on your reg. These ensure that your spring pack and reg parts are lubed.


which small hole markings? oh and does anyone else have a real tough time getting their regulator spring into that little hole?

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by impostal22
that's true chuck, except i don't play on a field, so after a tank runs out of air, i'd wanna take the on/off off and put it on the new tank. would that work..? or will the on/off not remove easily?

Yeah they come off easy, just like screwing a tank into an ASA.

Originally posted by impostal22
ok..away from the damn co2 tanks for now (i'll just get that on/off thing). unless you guys can think of a dropforward that would fit on my gun and not get in the way of the expansion chamber (see sig pic for pic of gun). onto the level 10..
Buying the SP on/off adapter would keep costs down and save more money for paint. If you wanted a new drop tho a mini or regular Shocktech drop would work and you could get an on/off ASA w/ those. A KAPP stubby would work to and you could offset your tank, something I find comfy:)

Originally posted by impostal22
where should i oil to keep the gun from PFFTing when there's no resistance? would shooting a lot of oil through the ASA do the trick or should i manually oil some things, too? than says where the bolt meets the o-rings and in the ASA, anyone else have any ideas?
and will oiling it really stop the bolt from PFFTing?
I basically oil like than205. A few down the powertube, a few into the ASA, and cycle off a few rounds w/out the barrel so it doesn't get oily! Oiling may stop the PFFT but it may be a carrier problem as mentioned earlier, time and experience will be your best teacher!;)

[bluefan101]

depending on your valve, you should have two small holes on the back half of your valve. They are inline with each other and each have a line pointing to them with one word in between "oil". In regards to the reg spring question are you referring to the small spring in between the two halves of the valve or the one large one that is inside of the reg body. Speaking of which, you really shouldn't have any need to seperate the two halves on a consistant basis. The same applies to the reg body and reg screw. Any oiling that you need to do should be done with the body as a whole and not as a body in pieces. As far as the lvlx goes and the pfft sound, when you make adjustments to the velocity, you will need to make adjustments to the amount of carriers and shims to account for the change in airflow. When making those changes the valve should still be completely assembled, minus the power tube parts. If you don't have a copy of the Automag video, you may want to look into getting one or at least borrowing it from someone. All of your preventative maintenance is covered in the video. The only thing not covered is how to adjust you lvlx. If you have a group of guys that you play with that use mags, you should each put in some cash and get the vid. It might also help to get together with them everyonce and a while to go over mag stuff. If you are the only one using it on your field, your going to spend a lot of time either on this forum or at a PB shop.

[Koosh]

I read through most all this thread, and agree with alot of you... this is just my two cents...


Originally posted by impostal22

problem #1:
i am running my mag on co2 and it's my only option, so i bought an aci 6 stage xchamber and a palmer stabilizer. macroline runs from the ASA to the xchamber, then to the stabilizer. it's set up correctly, i know that much. here's the problem though..whenever i take the tank off, i think the air stays built up inside the stabilizer and xchamber, and as i take it off it leaks a LOT of air (and the on-off pin on the tank never can turn off). so i take it off and right at the end it like pops off with a LOUD woosh of co2. this woosh sends the o-ring flying back onto the tank threading. i dunno if this has any bad affects, other than the strong possibility of constantly busting an o-ring when taking the tank off. not to mention it's really scary taking the tank off with that loud woosh. i've tried shooting as i take the tank off, but it doesn't help. which leads me to problem #2...

Where is the Ex-Chamber in relation to the stabilizer? Is the Ex-Chamber in the Verticle adapter, and a sideline stab, or somewhere else?

Like the others suggested, I think you just need an On/Off valve on you co2 tank... That way you can turn the tank off, shoot off all the excess air in the ex-chamber and stab, then when the gun doesnt shoot anymore unscrew the tank. You'll still get a little venting, but nothing like what you used to.



problem #2:
i originally had the level 10 set up fine. it worked for an unknown speed, and then i chronoed it around 300 and it stopped working (the bolt would shoot like a normal bolt). so i cranked it down a little, and now the bolt sticks a lot. here's the order of what happens. first the bolt starts shooting like it's hitting resistance (you know the sound), when there isn't any resistance whatsoever. then, after i do that few times, the bolt sticks back and when i pull the trigger nothing happens. so then when i take the tank off i have even MORE built up air in the gun and it ruined at least one of my o-rings. what velocities are the long/medium/small spring meant for? but this problem of the bolt never leaving the first stage of slow movement really is becoming a problem. it always leads to the bolt sticking, too.

I think everyone else took care of this one, but here is my interpretation... The short spring will work best. I took my LX out today and couldn't get anything under 300 without the short spring (yes I was using the largest carrier that didn't leak...). After I put in the short spring, I chrono'ed in at 280, 282, 281 (feild limit of 285) with my co2 fed classic valve... Oh, and lube the heck out of it too... that always helps.

I did have some problems with bolt stick too, but I'm in the process of fixing that myself... After I know what I'm doing I can comment better.



problem #3:
the damn foamie in the bolt flew off a few days ago and i superglued it back on, shot like 1000 shots through it, and then it flew off again. damn foamie doesn't wanna stay on!!!!!!!!


Foamies aren't REQUIRED for the LX. Sure they look cool and feel nice on the finger, but you can run a LX mag without a foamie with no problems...



problem #4:
the mag is becoming a lot of trouble for me but i still love it. playing becomes a very large frustration, though. PLEASE HELP ME!

We're trying! Don't give up yet!:D :cool: :D

[impostal22]

wow..lots of replies and lots of help...lol.

as for problem #1, i'm gonna get that on/off adapter that you screw your co2 tank into. is xpaintball.com reputable? i've never heard of them and can't find this part on any other website. http://www.xpaintball.com/smarparpreso.html

bluefan: i bought my gun used and the guy "upgraded" to the 8-hole regulator body...are the "oil" holes on the outside of the regulator or in between the valve and regulator? the spring i'm talking abuot is when you unscrew the regulator from the valve and you take the pin out (the spring that is behind that pin..the regulator spring lol). the manual says to clean that spring frequently because it catches particles of crap. but it's really hard to get back into the hole after you take it out... and i'm really not as ignorant about the gun as i think you think i am lol. i've just been having some bad days with it..

koosh: thanks for the help, i'm gonna try all this level 10 stuff once i feel calm and patient enough to. the more info i get beforehand the better though.

it's not over yet, but thanks everyone ahead of time for your help!

[impostal22]

here's pic of my valve...are the circled holes the holes i'm supposed to oil?

[bluefan101]

I didn't mean to sound patronizing. The 8 hole mode would explain a lot. I had questions about those a little while back. In order to keep the reg properly oiled, the original valves had two small holes on the top of the valve. In your case, you will need to unscrew the regulator nut on the back of the vavle and remove the spring pack assembly to properly oil the reg parts. Still only a couple of drops on the spring pack. I've been running my mag for about six months without seperating the two halves. One reason is because you will have to make sure that it reseats properly with the reg o-ring when puting back together. Also, the pin and spring are very important to the functioning of your gun. If the pin gets bent or the spring breaks off, you are going to be down and out. The last time I pulled my spring out I used a small flathead screwdriver, like the one you get with an eye glass repair kit. Be sure that when you reinstall it that it is in all the way. Again, sorry if I sound patronizing, but I'm trying to give you info as if you know nothing, just so nothing gets left out.

[bluefan101]

Correct. those are the holes.

[impostal22]

does anyone think this dropforward (http://www.paintball-discounters.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=1027&p_catid=136&sid=5bW2dL0lq5BG4O5-32103071999.27) will fit on my gun? my gun is what trent lott is holding lol.

[Grasshopper]

Xpaintball deals stuff out fine. My cousin ordered a Tippmann from them a while ago and everything went through fine...

About that drop: I'm not sure if it will fit. I'll be able to tell you today or tomarrow, though, since I just bought one to see how they compare to other drops. You can find it cheaper at DoroPaintball.com though (I think it's $26, and +5 or so if you want the guage). If you want to wait, I'll be able to tell you if the drop will fit within a day or so.

[impostal22]

the catch is i have an aci-6 stage x chamber on my gun, which likes to get in the way..

[bluefan101]

I don't think the holes will line up. The drop is for a Spyder, and most Spyders have their holes at an angle. Mags have their holes inline. This is how the Spyder bottom line installs. (http://store.yahoo.com/actionvillage/011-4020-505.html) Notice that the screws are at a vertical instead of inline like your mag.

[impostal22]

it has both inline and spyder holes, but i think it'll run into the expansion chamber anyway..

[impostal22]

ok grasshopper, i'll wait on the word from you before i decide what to buy.