ULE Trigger, Can You Shoot It Right?

[AGD]

Trigger Happy AO'ers,

A new issue has become apparent with the lightweight trigger. With lowered reactivity, it is much easier to short stroke the trigger and "chuff" a shot. Virtually everyone that picks the gun up for the first time does this.

The problem is that a chuff pushes a ball into the barrel where it sits there and the next shot blows the hell out of it. Now your barrel is dripping with paint. I am particularly worried about this because most people will think its a trigger problem or bystanders will see the guns suddenly breaking paint.

If we put more reactivity back in we can solve the problem but the gun will be illegal in many tournaments. Because the trigger is so light, turning down the pressure doesnt help.

I have no desire to go back to having a paint blending rep. Our chopping problems were caused by the exact same thing. So I ask you, can you learn to shoot this trigger?

AGD

[painball]

tom if it means I'd be able to have a near electro trigger on a mech gun then by all means yes

[Tunaman]

I need to test one out Tom...I will have to make a decision as to whether its worth it or not. Blenders we dont ever need again. I say scrap the project if this is gonna be an issue...but I need one to test with the boys around here please.;)

[Manuel_FZR]

I really like a verry light trigger - if this one is mechanical the better it is. But what I like much more is a gun that chops NO paint ... so I would prefer the no-chop-gun - then with a electro trigger.

just my 2 cents

[shartley]

This does not surprise me at all. I too would be worried about it.

I personally don’t see the need for a super light trigger UNLESS it can be without problems. The IntelliFrame is already an outstanding trigger/frame setup. The fact that it ISN’T super light helps me a lot. It allows me to really go to town and yet still FEEL I am shooting something.

If it was me…. I would scrap the idea or put it on back burner at the least. At least you have given it a try and found it to be problematic. This does not mean you can’t work on it at some later point, but with your solving the “chopping” problem (which I never had in the first place) with your latest upgrades the mere appearance of getting back into a paint blender (for any reason) is a step backward.

I am sure folks will come on and say how they will be willing to learn the new trigger and they WILL learn it, but I think we both know that what is SAID and what will HAPPEN are often far between. I envision SOME taking the time to learn the trigger, but most giving it a try and after making those around them THINK the marker is a total Paint Blender, will give it up and the damage is already done. I think the vast majority of consumers will not want to “learn” how to shoot it since they can pick up any number of other markers and shoot them just fine…. even if after learning how to shoot it they may shoot faster.

It is up to you… I am just giving one side of the issue. It isn’t my reputation on the line………….

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Trigger Happy AO'ers,

A new issue has become apparent with the lightweight trigger...it is much easier to short stroke the trigger and "chuff" a shot... So I ask you, can you learn to shoot this trigger?


I could probably learn to shoot it. However, I WOULD short stroke it from time to time. Does it always load a ball when you short stroke or does the level 10 reset sometimes?

If it were me I would be very worried about a bad rep. with this issue. :(

[Thordic]

I want high reactivity and the super light trigger :) Down with the oppresive trigger police!!

[adam shannon]

if its adjustable...make it a kit. if you can handle it with less reactivity then set it up that way...if you dont care if its really reactive since you dont play tournies then you can have it short-stroke free.

i would buy 5 of what i shot at the megameet right now.

[maglover52]

i want one!!!!

[Evil Bob]

Originally posted by Manuel_FZR
I really like a verry light trigger - if this one is mechanical the better it is. But what I like much more is a gun that chops NO paint ... so I would prefer the no-chop-gun - then with a electro trigger.

just my 2 cents

It doesn't "chop", it is simply double feeding, the "chuff" doesn't have sufficient air to shoot the ball out of the barrel, but it has enough to push the bolt and move the ball beyond the chamber into the barrel, allowing a second ball to feed right behind it, the end result is you have one ball colliding with another, if you're lucky, they'll both shoot out (which is very rare), but it will usually obliterate both balls leaving you with a nasty mess to clean up. Lvl 10 will not prevent.

Tom, I'd prefer enough reactivity that the trigger will return, but not so much that you can easily sweet spot it, it should be equal between the force required to pull the trigger and the trigger return.

-Evil Bob

[Hexis]

I Vote for reliability over a slight performance gain.

Is there a way to limit trigger travel so it has to reset to an initial position before it will go backwards again? I thought about that back with my level 7 valve.

[gibby]

The thought of getting electro like performance out of mechanical guns was awesome and it excited a lot of us. One of the selling points about my mag today is the fact that it doesn't chop a ball. Before, I bought the level 10 mod, I had to try and explain to my friends or those who want to fire my gun the behavior of the trigger..what they should do or shouldn't do. For some, that didn't sit well with them.

Ever since the level 10, I just hand them my gun and let it speak for itself. With the Level 10, RT valve, and intelliframe, there were a lot of people who were impressed with how it fired, felt, and just the overall feeling of knowing you wouldn't chop as much as before.

It's great that TK is putting so much time and energy to try to produce quality upgrades for older and newer guns. Not only that, he tries to keep the price range reasonable. However, as mentioned above, if the upgrade is a step back...then I say put it aside.

[Miscue]

Is there any way to engineer an anti-chuffing ULE Trigger?

[Load SM5]

I had no issue emptying a hopper or 2 at the Megameet and I'm usually pretty stinky with mechanical triggers. If I can learn this trigger I'd think anyone could manage it.;)

[ntn4502]

I did short stroke once or twice when I tested it, but its something I would willing to learn for the lightness. That being said I know there will be many others that will be the opposite:(
I would keep it the same

[cphilip]

I would have to try it more than I have already. All I did was to dry fire it. And if its a problem then I realy have no real issues with the trigger like it is. I am used to Mag triggers so I assume at this point I could learn but I also do not think it may should be a stock item if this is going to be an issue for the unaware that just picks up a Mag for the first time. I agree that we do now want people back tracking on the Mags Chop myth now.

A couple of questions though...

Is it easily reversable to stock set up?

Is there anyway you can moderate the changes you made to achieve this so that it is about half way but doesn't do this double feed? (i.e. half the trigger pull we now have but more than what you so far developed. Still an improvement but that eliminates this new issue)


If its reversable and or can be moderated in some way those might be options.

[sarpadian]

My question would be how hard is it to learn how to shoot? I have always looked at it as learning the trigger mechanics of a performance paintball marker is just part of the game. I look at it this way, everyone knows that autococker chop paint if you short stroke them as well. However they don't have nearly the "paint blending" reputation as the automag. Perhaps a beta test on AO would be a good idea in order to gauge the amount of difficulty we have with the chuffing problem.

[Frank (the spank)]

Must be why in the video you are really letting your fingers forward before you pull again.

Tom... whenever there is a problem, you fix it in what seems like overnight and do such an awesome job with it (lvl X).

Can't you make.. some sort of anti short stroke? Such as, you cannot pull the trigger until it goes forward all the way, like it locks you from pulling the trigger again until it has been released all the way. Like the rod has small teeth on it and a lock thats released when the trigger goes forward, but if the trigger is not all the way forward the lock stays "clamped" and will catch on one of the teeth if you try and pull it without letting go forward.

Eh?

I bet it would be easy for you to do that. But... people need to learn how to pull a damn trigger, it's not that hard. And you NEED this new trigger.. a trigger that makes all mags have the pull of an electro? Damn.. I wanna buy stock in AGD, lol

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by shartley
...the mere appearance of getting back into a paint blender (for any reason) is a step backward...

I agree 100%

"chuff", "short stroke" etc. (which equals goo filled barrels) are things I hate most about the old skool mag trigger system. Something I never got on my M98 (sear tripper) -which by the way, is a great trigger for a low end mech!

The reactivity (legal/illegal) of the RT valve solves most of the "short-stroke" problem... I-Frame helps too.

[paintballbeaver]

I guess its one of those situations you should put out a beta model and let a select few (me please me) test it out and give a response on how it performed and then if it short strokes or chuffs alot after only a couple times of use dont make any more its your option but my advise would be to let about 100 be release and then do a survey or follow up on how they worked and see if people can shoot them and how long it takes to learn >>> I dont know if that made since but thats my input i would relaly like one of these

[TecnoRobo]

This is just me, but i had trouble with my mag before level 10 and short-stroking. A lighter trigger would be alot worse for me then.

For me i'll just stick with my classic valve, and when i get an x-valve, if the trigger kit does come out, i wont get it.

Its a guy like me who would soil the mags rep

[Cryer]

I'll learn. I'm good at that.


yeah... definatly good. definatly...

[Cryer]

But honestly what I think is best for your company (and I don't want to overstep my boundaries here), But like Sam said, put it on the back burner for a while until there is a way that you can make it truly (in your own words) "idiot Proof".
In this sense, its not who's behind the Mag, its who's watching him. Not everyone will learn this new trigger before taking it outside and potentially damaging your rep.
That would be a bad move, especially considering the recent release of all these new eye-catching products that are starting to change the way people look at AGD: Level 10, X Valve, ULE mods, Xmags, etc.

It hurts me to say this, as I was looking forward to this as much as anyone, but: It's not ready. If you need to ask a question like this, then it is not ready. Don't trash the project (PLEASE!!!:( ), just look for other ways to change the characteristics of the trigger.

[Fritzy]

Tom, I believe history has proven that a majority of players will not be able to "learn" to use the trigger properly. I was one of those RT owners who never chopped much paint. I did not run a particularly high pressure into the gun to keep it from being too reactive. I also did not fan the trigger (bad idea before LX). However, most people attempted both of these things on a regular basis, often in conjunction with each other, even though they knew the result was likely to be soup. The blame was then placed squarley on the equipment.

I believe the same thing would take place here. LX cannot account for double feeds. Players will be focused on the "near electro trigger" portion of the marketing and trying to make it a reality. If they can't use the trigger however they want (walking, fanning, short stroking...) or as fast as they want and effect a successful shot, they will consider it a failing of the product. After all, it doesn't matter how you activate an electronic trigger, the effect is the same...

If there is not a way to keep duff shots from causing double feeds you need to eliminate the duff shots. Sounds like this can only be accomplished through increased reactivity. I would not mind this approach, as I am mainly relegated to non-tournament ball at this point in my life (married with 2.5 kids :-). This could be a low cost alternative for acheiving high ROF, and I am not worried about tournament legality. For those who want to play in tournaments, buy an emag...I love mine...

I agree with Tunaman, the worst thing you could do is introduce a new way to chop with a mag. The old "salad-shooter" stigma is still there (LX is slowly chipping away at this, but not real fast) and the slightest bump in the road could erase all the gains you have made in this area.

[Aegis]

I just played in my first tournament using a level 7/intelliframed RT Pro that I bought the night before. Broke one ball all day, only because I forgot to turn my loader on. First game jitters. The classic mag was my first paintball gun and I never had a breakage problem. I think this was due to several years of competition using double action pistols - you can short stroke those as well.

Guess what I am trying to say is you should be able to learn to shoot it, but I appreciate your concern.

Question would be, if you do "chuff" and get off the trigger in time, what do you have to do to get back into the action?

[Cryer]

Is the "chuff" still a problem if you don't lower the reactivity? If not, then leave it as is for now. That was kind of a side project involved and not really the main point right? Allow for slight user adjustment to raise the reactivity if they're having a hard time getting used to it.

[rehme]

i think you should only sell about 10 or, the lucky ones would be a beta testers, and would report what they thought about it. if they were able to learn the trigger then just about anybody could then. even if this did take another month or so i think it would be beter to beta test than to take a step back and get a bad rep. again


just my .02 cents

[lamingo]

i agree with cryer

[tmnothing]

Alright I'm not real familiar with tournies but TK said if they raise the reactivity then it wont be allowed in most tournies. Reactivity isnt allowed in tournies? Or is there a way that it is measured and a limit is set? Would my x-valve be tournament illegal? I'm just starting to get into tournies and I dont wanna show up to my first one and find out my gun isnt legal.

[coolcatpete]

i never chop paint with my mag it only happends when my friends use my gun. i first had an brass egeal sameri (heavy trigger pull) that was what i was used to, then i got a spyder imagine (light trigger pull) i got used to barrly pulling the trigger and now i am used to my clasic mag, and i still dont chop paint so i have gone through lots of changes so i think i can learn. tom what you should do is make it a seperate upgrade kit not distribute them through stores(only from th site) then not give a descrition so only the people that know what it is will buy it. If they buy it they know it will be a blender if they dont get used to it. Tom k. i give you my total moral suport on this project. I dont care how long it takes you just get it out on the site and if it gets a bad rep take it off

[coolcatpete]

oh yeah i just ordered a x-valve so for everyone who was going to say it wont work on my clasic i will have the x-valve soon

[wimag]

had a chance to dry fire Toms gun at the AO meet in WI last week and yes it has a very light pull to it but i still think the bounce to an RT has a better feel to it.

[Cryer]

Originally posted by tmnothing
Alright I'm not real familiar with tournies but TK said if they raise the reactivity then it wont be allowed in most tournies. Reactivity isnt allowed in tournies? Or is there a way that it is measured and a limit is set? Would my x-valve be tournament illegal? I'm just starting to get into tournies and I dont wanna show up to my first one and find out my gun isnt legal.

If you can sweet spot and cause runaway, that's what is illegal. With most Retro setups, you can cause it to go into to runaway if you know what you're doing.

[coolcatpete]

so if i can sweet spot it is illegal yes/no? what is runnaway?

[_Spork_1]

Originally posted by coolcatpete
so if i can sweet spot it is illegal yes/no? what is runnaway?

well not if you can, if the ref can then yes it is illegal

run away= Retro valv'd mag starts shooting with out you pulling it every time

[Peach]

It's illegal if the ref can sweet spot it. Runnaway is when you pull the trigger and then gun will not stop firing until you let go.

My question is "In what way did you lower the reactivity?"

If this is not one of the ideas you tried to lower reactivity I think it is a good idea: new and longer pins with the ULE setup would reduce the reactiviy, AND allow an adjustable tank user to Up the input pressure. Making this longer ping could lower the reactivity, but it would potentialy make the pull a little harder, and (OR) longer. The longer trigger pull that needs to be pulled back fully and then fully released would resemble a cocker trigger in pull motion...

If you haven't considered the on/off pin length I think it would be a good try, but my guess is you already have.

Right Tom ;)

[spacedtedybear]

Release a dozen or two beta versions to the people here who have experience with mags. If they can't handle the trigger, then most likely, a good percent of the population can't either.

[coolcatpete]

how do you find the sweet spot and is it easy

[smilestyler]

If more reactivity solves the problem, go for it. I am assuming that the ULE trigger can be easily taken out if a gun doesn't pass at a tourny.

[RetroEclipseMan]

I know that I'd like you to continue this project Tom but if you feel that the general public won't take the time to learn this new trigger then I say put it on the back burner until it's more developed.Better to save the good rep of the mag rather than ruin it at this point. I know at this point I'm happy with the way my RT shoots but would love the lightness of the ULE trigger but definately willing to wait.

[RLCRisp]

I disagree with the idea of not releasing the trigger. Any person serious enough about competing in tournaments should be willing to switch back to the stock configuration if they think a referee would be able to sweetspot their ULE-Trigger.

[Hoplon]

I'd say it it's easy to shortstroke then it's doing more harm then good anyways.

This upgrade doesn't effect me sense i'm shooting an emag. The only thing i could hope for is it increases the battery life.

I think as much as you've tormented people with the idea of an electro like trigger you owe it to AO to at least do a beta release.

We promise to blame it on our barrels if it causes problems. :D

[magman007]

Tom, PLease Step back for a second. And stop listening to the mass of AO, and listen to the few whom are saying to take a second and think. Like Shartley for instance.


I completely agree. Wait till everything is worked out.


No new marker user should have to "learn" their trigger, they should be able to pull it outta the box, and be able to rip, without worrying about shortstroking. Lvl 10 baisically did this. Now you are telling us that with this new mod, short stroking is back to haunt us again?


Tom, do not, i repeat do not release this product till everything is working.


Also, about reactivity, Dont include it. Dont sell a rec version and a tourny version, just dont include the reactive trigger at all. It is another bad step. The RT was cool, and was great, but now it is borderline banned, and from what i understand, and you have told us, and hinted at, it may be on its way to be banned shortly. So what would happen is tippman syndrome


This is where tourny players go on with tippman rT kitted markers, and play and "sweetspot" well im not saying plyers will sweet spot their markers, but they could still go on the field, with an un fair advantage, if they decided to use reactivity and not the non reactive one.


Back to your Chuffing design ;) (chuff is a great word btw tom, we were having a blast using it in the chat room )

i think that all problems need to be worked out, before this is ever released. im sensing that the trigger doesnt return fast enough right? well how about magnet system like in the e-mags? where the magnets return it. Stick like 3 REM's up in the intelliframe, and one ontop of the trigger, and have your return settled. it works for an e-mag, why cant it work for a regular mag?




Also, where are those non tapered on off pins we e-mag users need???

[Zenwood]

Originally posted by TAW
Tom, If you don't want to make the trigger adjustable how about making two upgrades. One for us rec ballers and one tourny legal? Sell in a limited number and see if you have a market for them.

I totally agree. As a rec/scenario player the idea of a light-pull high reactivity trigger for my mag makes me drool in anticipation. As for the a low-reactivity legal version, most serious tourny players practice a good amount anyways so the learning curve would be no big deal.

[Cypres0099]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but couldn't this still be quite useful to emag owners?

It would take less force for the solenoid to trip the sear thus prolonging battery life. A solenoid would not shortstroke so that wouldn't be an issue.

Just a thought

[AutomagBoy]

Tom, I say dont trust any one on the forums. One may say "I never short stroke" but do you even know if they will buy the trigger. For all you know someone could buy along with their frist mag, and no previous mag experience. All this trigger will probably do is hurt the company name more than help. I would just shelf it for a year or two and wait for an idea to pop to decrease short stroking. my two cents.

[paintballbeaver]

i guess i retract my earlier post i would lean twords magman007 and cypress0099 more than any thing dont put it on the back burner for us e-mag guys cause it could be very usefull but i also agree with mag man you should take your time with it and make sure all the bugs are worked out although a beta testing would help to do some of that

[azzkikr]

i agree with whoever said to make it a combo. in other words have the necesarry parts to make it a super reactive trigger and the stuff to make it more chuffable.

I mean, come on look at the classic valve, it can be short stroked rather easily and guys who take the time to learn it well can rip on it with no problem.

so I say come on out with it people who use mags normally know how to use their guns rather well and know the do's and don'ts of their guns.

later AZZKIKR

[RRfireblade]

DON"T let out till it's ready to fly on it's own.

Mags still haven't fully recovered from the "blender" rep.All it takes is another minor set back to get it going all over again.It would really suck if it's all over an inexpensive trigger Mod.

It sounds like a neat idea but seriously, I didn't hear anyone complaining about how "Hard" their Mag trigger was in the first place.Why start trouble?

My .02 cents. ( I'm gonna need a reciept)

Jay.

[CMDane]

I haven't checked the valves on my RTP or Micro yet, but if they are double o-ring, I'll be buying a ULE trigger kit for each. I have no problems learining the trigger, in fact, I normally run at least a case of paint through my marker when I upgrade something (Intelli, Warp, etc.) before I form an opinion.

With that said, I do want to be able to hand my marker over to someone and have them rip on the trigger without having to learn it. More than once, I've loaned my Warped RTP to someone and let them play a game, or did the LX "finger in the breech" trick.

While I can't say that I've accounted for a couple of Mags sold, I can say that I've been fortunate enough to dispel the paint blender reputation with a couple of old school players. If I loan my RTP out to someone (newbie or experienced), I don't want to hear a chuff, then see a spray of paint shoot out the end.

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with the people that advise you to beta test to a select group of Mag owners that play on a consistant basis and you know will give you feedback. I'd love to be in that group, but I know I don't play often enough to give you the feedback you would need. Once the chuffing problem is fixed, then mass market the kit. Don't release tourney and recball kits, that's more expense for you (R&D, packaging, marketing, possible tourney problems and reputation) and a hit to the wallets of the rec/tourney players.

Charles

[TheJester]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
Must be why in the video you are really letting your fingers forward before you pull again.

Tom... whenever there is a problem, you fix it in what seems like overnight and do such an awesome job with it (lvl X).

Can't you make.. some sort of anti short stroke? Such as, you cannot pull the trigger until it goes forward all the way, like it locks you from pulling the trigger again until it has been released all the way. Like the rod has small teeth on it and a lock thats released when the trigger goes forward, but if the trigger is not all the way forward the lock stays "clamped" and will catch on one of the teeth if you try and pull it without letting go forward.

Eh?

I bet it would be easy for you to do that. But... people need to learn how to pull a damn trigger, it's not that hard. And you NEED this new trigger.. a trigger that makes all mags have the pull of an electro? Damn.. I wanna buy stock in AGD, lol

that sounds like a a good idea to me. i know i would be willing to learn it, i would prolly dry fire a tank or 2 of air, and a hopper or 2 before i went out and played (that's what i did w/ my x-valve) to learn it and to break it in. but personally i would like to keep the reactiveness of my x-valve

speaking of wich, i'll do a search too, but can any 1 tell me how much it reduces the reactiveness? and he said that lowering the presure wouldn't help much, but what if you were to increase the presure, would that increase the reactiveness?

[PaintballSmurf13]

I honestly have no experience with rt triggers, but i think a ULE trigger is a GREAT idea. I'd buy it as soon as it came out (and an xvalve). I feel that learning the trigger of a gun can be easy, you just need patience. When I first picked up a cocker, I short stroked it relentlessly, chop after chop. But now i own a cocker and learned the trigger, and i can rip with ease. If your not willing to learn the trigger of a manual gun then just buy an electro.

[TheJester]

ok, 1st, sorry for the double post, but i can't see my 1st 1 yet, but i just did a search for the reactivity issue. and how much is it reduced by?


ULE Trigger is still in testing. We have reduced the reactivity but it has a tendency to short stroke

that's the only thing i found that mentions the reactivity issue found here (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84300&highlight=ULE+trigger)

[Marek]

Originally posted by PaintballSmurf13
I feel that learning the trigger of a gun can be easy, you just need patience. When I first picked up a cocker, I short stroked it relentlessly, chop after chop. But now i own a cocker and learned the trigger, and i can rip with ease. If your not willing to learn the trigger of a manual gun then just buy an electro.

I really wish the general public was as patient with a mag as they are with cockers. Unfortuantely that is not the case, and I can just see the stupid blender pics that ppl will come out with if this is the case. If a person was chopping like hell on a cocker, "oh you need to learn the trigger" If a person was just chopping on a mag "oh, it's a blender"

If this means anything to anyone, I would wait and try to make it as fool proof as possible. It's sad to see when ppl are still complaining about paint chopping even with Lvl 10. The first thing to check is if they installed it wrong and that usually fixes the problem.

If this means holding off, then hold off. It would only hurt the company rather than help the company go up in the ranks.

[FESTUS33]

Tom I got a chance too Dryfire the ULE Triggered RTP at Our AO Meet Saturday at Sam's. As someone who is relearning how to shoot mechanical gun's{witness my game at the meet with a swing trigger Cocker} it felt very nice "BUT" I never had it on the field with paint in it! Beta Test May not be a Bad Idea at this point. Send it out to some of the Team guy's and some selected customer's and get the FeedBack from the Field!
Rick :eek:

[AutomagRT1483]

Heck yeah Rick, I'm up for some testing!:D {If I would be one of the selected testers, hint...hint..;) } I dry fired that trigger as well on Saturday. It was nice. Never had it with any paint either though.

[Steelrat]

I know its just a part of this discussion, but I'm just getting back into the sport, and I was wondering about all the "illegal reactivity" talk. Are reactive triggers illegal in tournaments, or just a certain level of reactivity?

[nippinout]

Here's my take...

Release the ULE Trigger with the recommendation of using the reactive parts to limit double feeding. Also release it with the chuffing parts for tourney players.

Not every tourney player has an emag, but the chuffing wouldn't be a problem for e-mode.

Having a ULE trigger with reactivity isn't really a concern for the rec level. We already have RT Pros, RTs, and Tippmann RT's.

The concern over chuffing/reactivity is about tourney legalities. I still don't understand why the NPPL and PSP have concern over AGD products when the gun is running properly. Anyways...

AGD also has a tourney on/off pin and selector switch in the at some stage of devlopment. Tourney players will have to learn the trigger as with any other gun to shoot it properly. You still see plenty of mechanical cockers in tournaments that can have problems from short stroking.

The largest consumer base for mags is the rec player. We would play with the reactive parts. Tourney players can't just be ignored, but I'm sure tourney players wouldn't mind learning to pull the trigger correctly.

Release one version with parts for both chuff and reactive. Recommend the reactive parts.

[Mossman]

Tom I think that all of us that shot it at megameet will agree, that was one sweetly setup trigger. Very light, very crisp, just reactive enough but no rule committee would call it too easy to runaway.

If you can put out a drop in kit that'll turn an RT valve'd mag's trigger pull into ANYTHING like your chord was shooting at mega it'll be the best mag upgrade since LX :)

[Grasshopper]

God, that trigger is making me salivate just thinking about it. But now looking back on my first thoughts, of having the trigger be released ASAP, I take it back. The blender reputation always made me laugh (I rarley chop with a classic valve). But, getting the blender type reputation for AGD against would hurt sales and the company over all. I say just keep it back until you can figure out the problems. Please, by all means, do not scrap this project. This trigger sounds insanley awsome! Just try to get the bugs and stuff worked out, so everyone can enjoy the super mag.

[FESTUS33]

I Won't Quote Myself from my above post!
I never owned or shot a Cocker until two week's ago, My SystemX Vengence was Rocking right out of the Box, I Have'nt short stroked it Yet! [And I'm Notorious for Short Strokin Mechanical Mag's] BUT My FSE-LX Mag will Alway's be my Main gun. I'll reitterate what I said above, Maybe it's time for Beta Test.
Rick:eek: :eek:

[CameraGuy]

Out of curiosity, how long has it taken players that have tried the ULE at demonstrations to learn how to shoot it without shortstroking?
It might be worthwhile to take a sampling of "average" players at a local field (ie. with and without prior experience using Mags, and varying levels of playing experience) and put them through timed testing (with, perhaps, a baseline group that is just handed the marker and paint, and another one or two groups given varying levels of instruction on the trigger's use) to find out just how difficult this trigger is to learn.
If you are only looking at what it takes to learn the ULE trigger, I don't think that a Beta release to AO members (as much as we may all want it ;) :D ) will provide the information you're looking for, as Beta users will respond differently to the trigger (assuming that they are already dedicated mag users who have been watching the development of this trigger with great anticipation for some time now) than the majority of the paintball community.

If it turns out that an "average" player can't use the trigger after some kind of reasonable time period, it may be best to shelve this project for the time being, to be reevaluated at a later time.

That said, I do hope that the ULE trigger will be available to the public eventually, as it sounds like it has a great deal of potential.

[Jerhew]

make it a kit, as has been said already, so the player can adjust the reactivity to his or her liking
and beta test it.
this is the kind of thing that beta tests are for, isn't it?

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

You could always just use a big bore barrel and just shoot the double balls out.

[TheJester]

dispite my previous post, i think i'm leaning to a kit similar to the lvl 10, of which you can fine tune to your likings. add a couple parts to make it more reactive, and less mess ups, and and a couple parts to make it as light as possible.


I don't think that a Beta release to AO members (as much as we may all want it ) will provide the information you're looking for, as Beta users will respond differently to the trigger (assuming that they are already dedicated mag users who have been watching the development of this trigger with great anticipation for some time now) than the majority of the paintball community.

yea, but the thing is, the "average" person that will be using this will be us dedicated mag owners. so that average crowd you're talking about, is us. i'm willing to bet that the majority (if not maybe up in the 90% range) of the people who get this upgrade and will be learning it are dedicated mag owners, and have been for a while.

[athomas]

If the kit has a high probablility of short stroking in the hands of an inexperienced user then it is not a product that should be on the market. Inevitably, it will get into the hands of inexperienced users. People would then get the message through unhappy users, that the mag is not a user friendly gun. Bad press travels faster and farther than good press, so any bad press should be avoided whenever possible.

One question though. How does the mag short stroke (cuff) a ball using the level 10? Doesn't the operation of the level 10 dictate that if there is enough pressure in the chamber to push the bolt forward and chamber the ball, then the pressure is also great enough to fire it?

[Jonno06]

I don't think anyone pointed this out yet, but with the reactivity thing.....

Refs will usually pull you to check your gun if it is going Full-Auto..Don't most refs know that a mag can't be automatic with a Mechanical trigger?

[JAM]

well,
i think that if it can short-stroke like the mags of old, it should never be standard equipment. make an aftermarket option for people who are looking for performance- people who are probably competent enough to learn to not short stroke it. a lot of cutting edge products need some technique to work just right.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Rotate the sear on an offset axis that only turns one way.

Problem solved.

Edit: Wait nope... I just did a partial illustration of that and it's not that simple.

Otherwise I'm with Thordic on the trigger police. Crank the reactivity back up.

[breg]

Hmmmmmmm,
that might be a problem. We could learn, but it's possible that we might not learn in time to save our rep as blenders 'o paint. Personally, I'd like one, but if it causes more problems than it solves. Then it's just not worth it. In many cases, the ULE trigger might take us back to square one. The Level 10 stopped chopping, but the ULE trigger may cause it.

Sorry, but like I said earlier: If it causes more problems than it sloves, don't do it.


Breg

[GT]

hmmm....

I think some of you guys are just plain wrong. The product IS ready, this is a simple side effect of the product. Also please read the posts of those who have actually USED the product. Did anyone see Tom chuffing away on his mag at any of the meets? Last time I checked Tom doesn’t have some super fingers that allow him special powers over a mag trigger, so we know that everyone with a little practice can use this mod.

How many of you actually play tourneys? Those of you who do, are you willing to learn a new trigger during practice/rec ball?

Those of us in the car world can bring up nemerous, expensive, aftermarket products that can cause serious damage if not used/tuned properly. I can blow up any motor with an improper air/fuel, yes even a "built one." That being said does that mean that the manufacture/tuner/engine builder are at fault, no. It is up to the end user to "LEARN" how to use the equipment properly.

Tom,
You are not building spyders/tippmanns. Although an automag is very reliable one equipped with an X valve/retro isn’t something some kid is going to buy when at his local pb store looking for his first "cheap" ‘gun. I don’t think you should stop production on an awesome product simply because little Johnny can't figure out how to keep it from chuffing.There is tuning needed for Lvl X there will need to be the same sort of tuning needed for this.


Personal Note:
I have built 4 personal mags in the last 4 years of playing all equipped with lvl 7. It was rare RARE RARE for me to chop, however if I wasn’t patient enough to learn how to shoot it I am sure my mag relationship would not have been as good as it is now.

My Suggestion:
I know, Tom, that you had stated in another post that ULE trig would come stock on the next set of X’s, personally I think this is a bad move. Make the ULE trig a separate mod that can be dropped in if the user wants to or not.

BTW: I have money in hand for a Y grip and this trigger, so I think my vote counts;)

[Mutilus]

I used Tom's gun two weekends ago and I would have to say this ULE trigger is fine by me I can fire it with no problem. 200 rounds in under 12 seconds with no breaks I am happy, I am just waiting fo it's release.

[jdev]

not at all..

i fired off a few rounds on this and not once did I shortstroke.

i found it easy to pull, not difficult to figure out.

and hey, if you have troubles the first time around, dont put your hopper on.. just dryfire a bit till you get used to the trigger.

[dcmander]

I've been reading this thread and I think it is my turn for an opinion. :)

Every single post I have read by people who have actually shot Tom's setup at the meets has said it was easy, inredible, and no broken paint or shortstrokes.

This is an indication to me that the product is ready!! I would love this product and I could learn it no sweat if the other AOers are doing it. I still think it should be a kit though. That way for rec you can have a short trigger and high sensativity, but if you play a tournament you can quickly do whatever and make it less reactive and tourny legal. I think this is obviously the best solution and I think most people have agreed and voted for this option.

Make it a kit, include with Xvalve!

[lamingo]

i agree with dcmander all the ppl that have shot the ule trigger absoltly love it and had no problems short stoking it.

[BTAutoMag]

lol, id be willing to give it a shot

[Lethargic]

First of all, im confused on what chuffing means. Is the gun just short stroking? or is there something else going on?

Second, i think AGD is going about this the wrong way. Granted, it is nice that he shows us here on AO all the new upgrades, guns etc, BUT there is a problem with this. By catering to a well - informed and (generally) more intelligent crowd, I don't think that Tom is going to get the viewpoint of the average idiot.

I say that this needs to be slowed down for a while. Even though most AOers will probably be fine with learning the new trigger, it could still pan out pretty badly. All it takes is a few random idiots (you know, the ones with badly installed level 10s and ANS parts all over their guns) to go crop the crap out of a few hoppers of balls to bring the "mags chop paint" idea back to teh foreground.

Besides, i still have to save up for an x-valve, new rail, and body for my RT:D :D

[Fritzy]

I believe the point of Tom's post is that the latest version, created to limit reactivity and be tourney legal, <b>WILL NOT<b> shoot the same as the gun everyone has tried out at the different meet events. People were not short stroking that one because it still had sufficient reactivity.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

I think that the vast majority here didn't have chopping problems pre-LX. I rarely chopped with my retro. I don't think we realize how many people used mags that don't come here. This is why the mags had the blender reputations. They never took the time to shoot the mag right, and therefore, didn't have good experiences with their mags. Then spread the word on, how much they "sucked".

Another consideration is that the average mag owner(Non AO'er) wouldn't head the warning of which valves to properly install it on. They'd throw it on a classic valve just hearing that it reduces the trigger pull. Once that gun is all screwed up, forget about it.

I think this needs to get held up. Don't send something out that's going to set you back again. It's just not worth it.

[Psycho attack monkey]

i think i would prefer an intelliframe

[lamingo]

people took the time to set up the lvl 10 so it didn't chop. its the same thing. if they didn't learn how to set it up right it would still chop. same with the new tigger so its the same concept people took the time with lvl 10 and everything worked out. Lvl 10 could have backfired but AGD tried it. i think that it should be released and then debate if its continue or not based on feedback. you'll never acomplish anything if you don't try.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by lamingo
people took the time to set up the lvl 10 so it didn't chop. its the same thing. if they didn't learn how to set it up right it would still chop. same with the new tigger so its the same concept people took the time with lvl 10 and everything worked out. Lvl 10 could have backfired but AGD tried it. i think that it should be released and then debate if its continue or not based on feedback. you'll never acomplish anything if you don't try.

agreed.
if you send it out with detailed instructions on what and what not to do...how to set it up with enough reactivity to avoid short stroking, how to set it up without reactivity for tournament use(with a warning about the possibility of short stroking when set up this way)

the level 10 was sort of a tricky thing to set up for some people...and yes there were problems...but overall i think everyone sees LX as a huge sucess
even a warpfeed takes some doing to make sure it's running properly...i never hear warp users complaining...
because if they don't like it, they take it off...
and i'm assuming you can do the same with the new trigger...

that's the difference right there...
when the old mags were considered blenders, that's just how they were stock...
with the ule trigger, it's an upgrade, if people don't like it they can always get rid of it...
AND
it's an upgrade to a higher end gun in the first place...
for the most part, you'll have more experienced users using this...
not just some noob with a classic(no offense to classic users)

[Marek]

Why are ppl comparing this to Lvl 10? When the upgrade came out, and the pics and videos and Mr. Kaye with the tongue in the breech were shown to non-mag users, jaws dropped. The whole point for lvl. 10 was to stop chopping in a mag and get away from this rep of mag=blender. Yes you have to tweak it, but its fool proof. (well, for the most part)

The ULE trigger, at its present form may cause more bad than good. To me, this sounds like a small group of ppl on AO are die hard about this, but that doesnt make up the general community of paintball. Mr. Kaye mentioned that about some of the other upgrades and he got burned from that. If this is released, instructions or not, beta testing or not, and problems arise, then AGD will start having problems with their rep. Of course, the die hard mag ppl will stick up for the rep, but the damage will be done.

You dont short stroke or chop or break or whatever on your classic z gripped mag? Thats great, but not everyone is on the same boat. And like I mentioned earlier, if this was an upgrade for a cocker, ppl would have the patience for it. This is not the case for the mag.

[RetroEclipseMan]

After reading all these posts my new opinion would have to be to send it to beta. There's enough knowlegable people here on AO that would be willing to do it to give you the feedback you need. I know that if I had the opportunity to buy one for beta testing I would, even if that means buying an x-valve, that's how much I want this upgrade to come out as long as it's going to be the right time for it.

[dcmander]

If this is true, I retract my past statement. Can anyone confirm this to be true?
Originally posted by Fritzy
I believe the point of Tom's post is that the latest version, created to limit reactivity and be tourney legal, <b>WILL NOT<b> shoot the same as the gun everyone has tried out at the different meet events. People were not short stroking that one because it still had sufficient reactivity.


Originally posted by dcmander
I've been reading this thread and I think it is my turn for an opinion. :)

Every single post I have read by people who have actually shot Tom's setup at the meets has said it was easy, inredible, and no broken paint or shortstrokes.

This is an indication to me that the product is ready!! I would love this product and I could learn it no sweat if the other AOers are doing it. I still think it should be a kit though. That way for rec you can have a short trigger and high sensativity, but if you play a tournament you can quickly do whatever and make it less reactive and tourny legal. I think this is obviously the best solution and I think most people have agreed and voted for this option.

Make it a kit, include with Xvalve!

[Mutilus]

Well nothing against anyone here but I don't get the issue. I used the ULE trigger at Twin Towers and I rocked and rolled with it and didn't break anything. Does the intelligrip work the same way? I doubt it. I hope Tom doesn't listen to any of you and makes the grip anyway, because I would buy one and use it regularly. I have been looking for a mechanical that can fire as fast as my Angel for a long time now and I found it in Tom's marker, I always loved the low profile of the Mag and I only broke away from the Mag because there wasn't as much that you could upgrade on them as many of their peers. Either way as an Airsmith and with 14 years of paintball under my belt I think Tom's trigger frame is awesome and will work great on the Mag I am putting together. I just got the ULE body and Xvalve for my old school Mag and I am just waiting for the release of the ULE frame to make it complete and play tourney ball with only my Mag. in a phrase "It Rocked"

[dcmander]

Originally posted by Mutilus
Well nothing against anyone here but I don't get the issue. I used the ULE trigger at Twin Towers and I rocked and rolled with it and didn't break anything. Does the intelligrip work the same way? I doubt it. I hope Tom doesn't listen to any of you and makes the grip anyway, because I would buy one and use it regularly. I have been looking for a mechanical that can fire as fast as my Angel for a long time now and I found it in Tom's marker, I always loved the low profile of the Mag and I only broke away from the Mag because there wasn't as much that you could upgrade on them as many of their peers. Either way as an Airsmith and with 14 years of paintball under my belt I think Tom's trigger frame is awesome and will work great on the Mag I am putting together. I just got the ULE body and Xvalve for my old school Mag and I am just waiting for the release of the ULE frame to make it complete and play tourney ball with only my Mag. in a phrase "It Rocked"

That was Fritzy's point. Tom's mag you used may have been tournament ILLEGAL, because of the reactivity. THAT is the issue. To be tournament LEGAL, the reactivity is going to have to be turned down, which will make the trigger not return as quickly. So this proposes the opportunity of one to shortstroke. This is the issue we are discussing. Understand? Now debate! ..With the rest of us. :)

[logamus]

Originally posted by dcmander
I've been reading this thread and I think it is my turn for an opinion. :)

Every single post I have read by people who have actually shot Tom's setup at the meets has said it was easy, inredible, and no broken paint or shortstrokes.

exactly my thoughts. why not make this like the roller trigger and have some only sold via airgun.com. put a notice on the order page that this trigger if not learned and used properly can cause "chopping" and include a typed version with the trigger. as long as the ult remains an aftermarket "hotrod" item i dont think it would have a negative effect on the companys image. lets be honest, most people think that base model mags are blenders and will always think that so someone not knowing how to shoot this trigger wont change their minds anyway. but, there is the chance that if a long time mag hater sees someone who knows how to use the trigger ripping away like nobodys business, that might mean more to the mag hater.

as far as learning the trigger, most mag users had to learn the mag trigger to begin with. is that not part of the reasoning behind the lvl10? people that were not familiar with the mag trigger chop alot of paint. most of us will agree that once you know how to shoot your mag, chopping is not much of an issue but the lvl10 erased any issue. same with the ult, once you learn it, short stroking wont be much of an issue either. my suggestion is to just keep this labeled as a high performance aftermarket add on that can be quirky if you dont learn how to use it.

(sorry for the length)

[ß.C.]

if there is someway you can make it adjustable between illegal and non illegal I'd bet a lot more would shoot for this. Don't give up now, think of all that time and effort going to waste!

[magman007]

Listen people, forget beta testing. You all want beta testing, because you all feel it will give you a chance to get this trigger faster. Now Listen to me here. For years the mag trigger was a reason to get a mag, its a great freekin trigger, and i know you al like the trigger you have now, or else you wouldnt have bought a mag, you would have gone on searching for the marker that had the trigger you want.


Now. The trigger may be "ready" in your eyes, but it really isnt. You guys are being selfish, and only thinking of your selves, and what you want, well let me give you all a wake up, you are not the whole paintball crowd. You need to think in terms Of the company whose board you are supporting, and whom has the warrenty on your mag.


Mags are finally becomming popular once more, slowly. Now if we stop the popularity right now, with something that makes mags break balls once more, and you want this on the market now now now... then you are thinking selfishly. Stop thinking about your selves for once.


Now, how would you feel, If agd released this product, and lost sales? not just on classics or rt's, but on x-mags as well. You can say all you want that x mags dont have this problem, because they are electro's etc, it aint gunna do a damn thing the the pb world as a whole, people will go right back to thinking mags break balls, and that is that. What does this translate into? Lost sales! now keep with me here... Lost sales means not making money, not making money means company financial troubles, financial troubles can lead to Bankrupcy, which means that all of your mags, and your warrenty's and great customer service, go down the crapper.


Do you under stand this?

Now back to tourny rules etc. Listen, most rules that the NPPL enforce, the PSP and the Millenium series enforce, will soon become the norm, and fields will start to enforce these rules as well, many of them already do. Now, there is no reason for agd to release a highly reactive trigger, and a non reactive trigger, one being illegal. Its like releasing a marker in one mode that has FA, and another mode that doesnt.(just a comparison, not saying that one can "sweet spot" easier than the other etc) THe kit should be released to comply with all rules and saftey standards, and nothing more. It also will not sell well if it is not "tourny ready" or "tourny level" "tourny capable etc." we all know these are high selling points on many products. Also, many people will buy this trigger kit, newbs who dont know a thing about mags, will buy them by the bucket full, once this becomes available, why? because mags are gaining popularity, because they have an ultralight trigger, pretty bodies ETC.

Now i ask you this, how many of you really say the bad points of your marker, when you are trying to sell the idea to another person? I doubt more than 5 of you do. The word will travel that mags have a nice super light trigger available, and with a really cool LX kit etc. This is the low/mid end marker dream, and agd will play a big part into it, and these mags, with these short strokeable triggers will go out to tons of people, and they will short stroke it and chuff a lot. THis again, puts up the bad rep for mags.

Now your all saying, oh i tried it out etc, and had no problems, well apparently you chuffed the first ball, because tom said that every one who has picked up this marker, has chuffed the first ball, now maybe not every one, but apparently the vast majority of you have.

Another thing is you need is Patience PEOPLE! can i say Superbolt enough times? let me try Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt Superbolt nope i dont think that i can. The superbolt was a big failure for agd, and you all know this. it was suipposed ti function etc, but it didnt. It broke, and broke more paint, because it cycled faster than the old heavy ss bolt, increasing the bolt speed, and breaking balls more. Listen people, tom cannot release this product to impatient people, just because they are impatient. This product needs to be Full proof before it hits any sort of market, beta or not.

How would you like the agd slogan to be.... We rush our products because whiney people on ao tell us to, and it isnt as quality as we hoped, and once a ball is chuffed, it doesnt shoot straight...


Ill tell you, i like Quality Always Shoots Straight much more than that..... So think about it all of you...

[GT]

Originally posted by dcmander

Tom's mag you used may have been tournament ILLEGAL, because of the reactivity. THAT is the issue. To be tournament LEGAL,

Of which none of you have answered my question.

How many of you actually play tourneys? Those of you who do, are you willing to learn a new trigger during practice/rec ball?

[magman007]

I play tournies, and il tell you this. There should be no reason to need to learn any type of trigger to make the marker shoot correctly, cocker, mag, or not, there should be no reason for me to have to think about how im pulling my trigger in the middle of a game, i have more important things to think about, dont you?


The idea that some one needs to take time from playing, or practicing, or even in their basement to learn a trigger, is outrageous.

[Halo2x]

Originally posted by adam shannon
if its adjustable...make it a kit. if you can handle it with less reactivity then set it up that way...if you dont care if its really reactive since you dont play tournies then you can have it short-stroke free.


I Second This Idea(Unless somebodey already has:) )

[GSKRAP]

Tom, could you please tell us how the trigger works so we know what we're dealing with? i think if we knew the mechanics of the thing it might be easier to make a decision...

[terrorizer666]

magman007,
dont give up, I read your posts and you are right. I hope the officials listen to your thoughts.

Mags have had a bad rep a for long time, and it´s about to become better again (except for the thing that everyone says that their price politics on Xmag is just insane, which I second - should cost about a grand).

I would never step back to a Mag that would be able to chop, I hated that back in the days and I still hate it like hell.
Maybe you should just screw this idea and focus on X Mags...

[GT]

Originally posted by magman007
I play tournies, and il tell you this. There should be no reason to need to learn any type of trigger to make the marker shoot correctly, cocker, mag, or not, there should be no reason for me to have to think about how im pulling my trigger in the middle of a game, i have more important things to think about, dont you?


The idea that some one needs to take time from playing, or practicing, or even in their basement to learn a trigger, is outrageous.


And you just picked up your mag and along you went? I am sorry but you are wrong there is always some learnig curve no matter what part is installed.

I think people are making a way bigger deal out of this than need be

Who said you have to buy everything that AGD makes? some people dont like I frames, me for one, and some do. Tom please DO NOT base your decision on a project by a few people on AO. Build a few beta's abd let us on AO with open minds give it a try. I am sorry but I cant kill an idea w/o implamentation.

jb

[logamus]

magman, i dont think any of us wants adg to release a product that is not ready. tom wouldnt do that ever again anyway. all i am saying is that you make good and damn sure that when people purchase this item they be given plenty of info regarding its short stroke ability. so long as this product is not a "standard feature" and is not widely marketed (i.e. the roller trigger) i dont think that there is as much negative as some people claim. i understand that you cant have the public beliving your marker is a paint chewer, but i really dont think the ult was ever intended for the new mag owner anyway.

i may be way off base, but i never really felt that this was designed for anyone other than a "mag enthusist" and my feelings on that is if someone is in love with their mag, they will work out whatever problems the ult MAY have. not many of us quit playing with our mags prior to the lvl10 bolt, some (like myself) still have a lvl7 bolt.

now if someone is at the field with their new ult and chopping left and right, i can see your point on a negative image. however, judging by the statements of those who have actually used the thing, its not a hard thing to figure out.

i dont want to say someone is right or wrong with their feelings on the subject, im just trying to express my feelings. im not trying to be selfish either, i dont want tom to rush anything out to anyone thats just not ready for play. however, if the trigger has come to a point where more "real world" study is needed, i dont think the companys rep is on the line by allowing a "beta" test with AO members. lets keep in mind that the multitudes that think mags chop, will think mags chop regardless of the trigger.

[magman007]

It may not have been created with any one other than a mag enthusiast in mind, but that is what will happen, and you know that. Word of an extremely light trigger for a mag will spread, and everyone on ao wil say get the ULT trigger etc, to any one wondering what to put on their brand new mag. Any product that needs to warn buyers of the possibility of shortstroking etc(in the paintball world) should not be released, untill it is un short strokeable.

Gtrsi, i wont say that i didnt have to learn the trigger, i just wasnt happy about having to do it. It isnt something that should be needed either, it should be able to shoot correctly outta the box.

[Marek]

Originally posted by gtrsi
I think people are making a way bigger deal out of this than need be

Tom please DO NOT base your decision on a project by a few people on AO.

I agree that ppl are making this a big deal, but I guess its that important.

I agree with your last sentence (not if your post, but what I edited out above) I don't think Mr. Kaye should only listen to a few here at AO, for or against the release and think of the majority of the paintball community. I think magman hit the nail on the head when saying that when ppl here about this from the web, friends, etc. they will want to try it out. Why make it exclusive to only Die hard mag ppl? Or really serious paintballers? (whatever that means)

Honestly, how many ppl can say they have tried it with less reactivity??? Not chopped or anything, but just tried it? There have been ppl that have tried out Mr. Kaye's gun, but that was an earlier version. I would love to try this out also, since I am curious how it works and how light it can be, but not at the cost of having a paintball disaster.

[logamus]

well i guess the debate is do you release a trigger that some users might shortstroke. my feeling is that the the boost in image the mag enthusist would have by being able to correctly use this upgrade is worth whatever negative (i think very minimial) side effects. because, like i said before those that think mags chop will always think that and there is little we or adg can do to change their oppinions. you know you could shoot 1000 rounds at 15bps with a mech trigger and not break one ball and they anti-mag guy would say, "dang thats fast, but i would never own a blender."

the ult is not for the noob. just like a cocker is not for a noob. people dont suggest getting a tricked out gun that needs lots of attention to make it work to the uneducated, i think this trigger is similar to that. its just the only product that adg has thats not "noob proof". i dont see why those of us that can handle such a performance upgrade should be denied that upgrade so it can be "dumb downed" for the masses. if anything cockers are more complicated today than they were 10 years ago and if the most complicated thing on a mag is a very light trigger that takes some getting use to, i dont see a thing wrong with that.

[magman007]

taw, he asked for our opinions as well, and we are giving them to him, im telling him not to take peoples opiinions, baisically doing the same thing you are, but im actually proving reasons why not to take opinions... baisically doing the same as ou, but with more calss, and more foundation, also, i have been here on ao longer than you, and am more active, there fore when the time calls, i act, as i should

[classicmagplayer]

1st off, someone said earlier that the ULT shouldn't be included on the new x-valves. I would have to disagree, some of us classic owners wanted to get the ULT, but we found out it would not work well with the classic valve. So, some of us are considering getting the x-valve with the ULT to replace our classic valves.

I think, with a well written instruction booklet, short stroking could be kept to a minimum. Also I think AO testing is a good idea...it seemed to work well with the lvl-x. (I was here for that under a different name)

I don’t think short stroking would be that big of a problem, even with a reduction in kick. After all we are only talking about pulling and releasing a trigger. Sorry but, if someone can't figure out how to pull a trigger correctly, I wouldn't want them handling a gun around me.

Anyone have any ideas as to what the mod is? I'm guessing it might be a smaller on off pin, because it would cause bad shoot down in a classic valve. But in an RT the pin is kicked away from the sealing o-ring, leaving a large opening for better air flow. This would also cause the problems with short stroking; it would decrease the size of the o-ring for the air to pass through. So, the slightest short stroke would reduce the pressure in the dump chamber and cause the LVL X to stop on the ball. I'm not really sure how it would be adjustable, other than different sized pins and o-rings.
That’s just a guess. It's simple, and it explains all the problems. KISS

Thanks for reading...please come again :D

[The Yellow Dart]

Ok, I am confused. There is about 10 different arguments going on at once.

-beta vs. non beta
-being tournament legal
-chopping paint
-who would learn how to use it
-etc.

Can we at least try and have organized arguments and discussions.:eek:

[nuclear zombie]

I vote that they do some more research/testing , on the matter .

The RT trigger is already awesome , I can already shoot just as fast as Tom did in the video , without the SLMT . It would be nice to have a lighter trigger , but I would wait until all of the bugs are ironed out before releasing it to the public .

[Hoplon]

Originally posted by magman007
Listen people, forget beta testing. You all want beta testing, because you all feel it will give you a chance to get this trigger faster. ...

You guys are being selfish, and only thinking of your selves, and what you want, well let me give you all a wake up, you are not the whole paintball crowd. ..... So think about it all of you...

Your heart is in the right place but please stop trying to police us. Releasing a beta version of this would be the only way to know for sure if it was going to be problematic. Most of you guys who are strongly against this product haven't tried the trigger.

People shortstroke my mag now when i let them try it. I don't see what the difference is.

Tom will be able to use his judgement to tell if the average joe can learn the trigger or not. Making it standard on xvalves might be a mistake though if some people will have problems with it.

Personally i liked the older, more reactive, on/off.

[GT]

Originally posted by classicmagplayer
Sorry but, if someone can't figure out how to pull a trigger correctly, I wouldn't want them handling a gun around me.


haha thats great.

TAW,
You need to step away from the computer for a bit and take a breather. If you have a problem with another member YOU need to pm them. Typing that I need to cleanup my posts are just shy of a childish comment. Trust me Tom is reading all of these posts and some of the good/bad points that are made. Lighten up its just the internet.

BTW: Yes I can shoot this trigger, I will promise to tell myself that I am smarter than the trigger:D

jb

[Grasshopper]

A beta test would help greatly in releasing a new, contreversal product such as this. I just can't wait to get my hands on one of these awsome triggers and rip it up. Seriously, I quivering over the idea of it. Darn you Tom! Now you got me all worked up!:)

[Koosh]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Tom is afraid that people will get the new trigger and start short stroking. Whats the big deal? You just need to do what you always TELL people to do when they first pick up a mag. Pull the trigger back, let it go. Is it really that difficult?

People may "chuff" the first few times out at the field, but if its a continuing problem, well... then how hard would it be to Uninstall the trigger mod and sell here on AO to people more competant?

I say release it. I really don't see any problems with it... If people are chuffing too much and breaking balls, what are the chances that they will keep that in the gun? Make it stock on X-Valves, but include stock Xvalve parts to change back if necessary...

[Grasshopper]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh
I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Tom is afraid that people will get the new trigger and start short stroking. Whats the big deal? You just need to do what you always TELL people to do when they first pick up a mag. Pull the trigger back, let it go. Is it really that difficult?

Exactly my thoughts. Though 'Mags have this "blender" reputation behind them, if people can learn the trigger (and with common sense, it's not that hard), people will see 'Mags ripping with it. That'd be an up for the reputation. With any trigger, you can easily mess up the first time you use it. After a few games, I bet nearly any paintballer (new or experienced) could get used to it and fit it easily into their play styles.

[crankydan]

Tom,

I think that I could learn this trigger. I think that less force required would equal more paint down field and a steady platform for accuracy. I dont see how it could be any harder than a cocker.

For the rest of you guys, for gods sake stop the whining!!!! Answer the question and let it go!

[845]

I will have to agree with Magman on this one. Don't release it until it is perfect.

[neuromonic]

For what it's worth... I too agree with magman.

-n

[Jerhew]

well
i do understand magman's point...
but i also think he's blowing things waaaay out of proportion
and telling us that wanting a beta test is selfish is kinda silly really...
i can't even use this mod at this point(1 oring rt) but i still think that beta testing would help collect the proper data without staining AGD's rep

[Severe]

Tom et al,

I'd like to see another AO beta test much like you had with the Level 10. Even though I did not participate in that beta, I found it invaluable in boasting my confidence in my marker's future and in AGD's commitment to continue to evolve the marker. Since I'm classic valve player, I would most likely not participate in this beta either. However hearing other players tout the abilities of this trigger in combination with the X-valve would substaintially reduce my reluctance to upgrade.

I've never played a tourney and while all the magazines hype tourney play, I still confident that rec-ballers are by far the majority of paintballers.

At the fields I play the 'mag players I see are seasoned players who've gone 'mag for their own reasons or kids/friends who have seen me play and how well my mag performs for me and picked up a mag of their own. Each of these groups understand that the mag is unique and that a certain amount of technique is required in being efficient with the trigger.

The bulk of the other players I see are Sypder types (mostly electrics now) or Tippmanns (lots of A5's with RT...an impressive marker to be sure). Of course there's the occassional Angel, 'cocker, Timmy, etc.

I have no problem getting excellent bps speed with my Intelliframe/LvlX classic mag as it is. I rarely go crazy on the trigger, I prefer trying to use precision shooting rather than volume. But I feel that a trigger mod like this would broaden the range of performance of my marker. I don't mind that there's a new technique to learn. In fact I enjoy that. It makes my marker more unique.

I understand that the reactivity of the trigger is a concern for Tourney players, but I also get the feeling that most of these players are using E-mags. If the trigger is determined to be tourney-illegal then it's simply a fact that those players who focus on that type of play should not get/use this upgrade. I don't honestly understand why someone would even bother trying to 'sweet-spot' this trigger if it's as light as it sounds. Why not just walk or fan the trigger or whatever it is you do to dump as much paint as possible.

Just my .02

Steve

[magman007]

another point no one has brought up yet, is that the people who are used to mag triggers, IE: pulling them all the way back, and fully releasing them before the next shot, are chuffing on the ULT.

These hardcore mag users that tried this trigger(no not toms marker, whom ever tried this new trigger) has been chuffing...


Also, do not get the idea im not supporting this trigger, or i am against it, i want one for my sfl as much as the next guy, but i am against the idea of releasing something that i feel isnt up to agd's quality standards.


And i am not "policing" any one, i am offering my opínion, which if you people were to take a moment and relax and read my points, and ponder them, you would understand where it is i am coming from.

I am doing my part, to try and see that AGD doesnt do something based on the opinions Of AO that could jeopardize the company.

We all know tom listens to AO, and this worries me alot, because people come on and say, i dont care, il learn the trigger etc, well you arent the whole mag community, let alone the prospective mag buyers community. which after this trigger comes out, combined with lvl 10, ule bodies and everything, mags should see a huge leap in popularity. If these things arent perfect IE poorly made, short strokeable, not quaility products that we are used to(notew i was not insinuating that this trigger is poor quality etc, i was stating poor quality prosucts could be released)
Well if these things happen right whn people start to give mags a chance again, or this trigger is too shortstrokeable to average joe electro shooter, then there is a problem now isnt there?

another thing we have yet to consider, is the electro shooters, we are spoiled with out triggers, and we dont worry about short stroking, but what if an average electro shooter decides he likes the ULT idea, and wants to get back to his mag roots after a few years of shooting an electro, he is gunna have a hell of a tome coming back, and may remind him why he "left" in the first place....

[jaylock33]

I am very excited about the possibilities that arise from this trigger. But I also think that Tom's concern should not be with us learning the trigger I believe that most of us being a dedicated as we are to mags and AGD products would without a doubt learn the trigger. His concern should be with those who do not yet use a mag, these people are what will make the customer base grow and in turn make the company grow. If these people become disenchanted with the mag becasue it has once again gone to being a "blender" then the company is back to square one after a great string of improvements. To answer the question for my own personal reasons I would like to see the ULT released and I would take the time to get used to the trigger but I'm an AGD diehard and do not represent the vast majority of paintballers. Remember in the paintball world of my maker is better than yours ignorance is bliss and any foder (mags being blenders because the average person won't learn the trigger) we give to the anti mag people will be used against AGD to show why their gun is better than ours.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

magman007 or whatever does have a point, these are people used to Mag triggers that are chuffing, and it only takes one chuff to really mess the gun up, just like it used to only take one chop to mess it up. AGD does not need to create another bad stereotype like the shortstroke/chop rep it had.

So options: can this design be modified so the pull is about 1/2 as heavy as a normal pull so not quite an electric feel but still a huge improvement, and in changing the internals around cut back on the chances of a "chuff" happening? I presume some change to on/off AND sear is involved hear, so if gears are used to lighten the torque (ie pull on trigger) to activate the on/off maybe a different sized gear can be used to shorten the pull, prevent chuffing, and still have some benefit of lighter pull. A pull that's half the weight of a mags and maybe even a little shorter with the new sear would be sick.

Would this work?

[Benfica4ever]

I would try my hardest to learn to use it.

[Mook564]

I think a beta test would be a good way to go. BUT I would give them to people other then the ones on AO ( no offence to us AO people ). Go to a local field find some people that use Mags check the valve out, and if it will work with there Mag give them one. Also give them a pre paid mail in performance review. Or get the persons name and phone number so you can call them and see what they have to say after they use it for a while.

I had a chance to use a ule trigger at the Wi megameet and loved it.:D But alas I can't use one on my old RT.:( But if I could use it I would buy one.

[Micromag man!]

i think the light trigger would be awesome, but its not ready now... i like the idea of the trigger locking until u have fully pulled it, it would help u learn quickly, and it doesnt matter if it doesnt shoot, it reminds me sorta of like an ace... just alot different. i think it wouldnt be that hard to make this triger locking mechanism... but i do think this should be on the front burner b/c us mech users need something to be proud of too, my team always bashes me about how heavy and stiff my intellifram is... but i like it, just would be bette if it were lighter, i think u should sel a reactivity kit with it tho, i think the tourny/rec kits are retarded non-sense

[Mutilus]

How does the intelliframe work? What are the particulars about it, I really want to start running with my newly built Mag, Level 10, X Valve ULE Body Freak System and lots of other goodies all it needs now is a soft trigger (like Tom's) although I understand they can't make it that way because of Tourney play so don't tell me that again. I just need a good fast trigger frame and I am a happy boy, is the intelliframe an option I should investigate?

[WarBUCKs]

Tom asked if we could learn how to shoot the trigger and I say "Yes, we can learn."

I know for a fact, I can learn how to shoot a trigger. I am still young and in college!

[MaxPowers]

Instead of another potential P.R. nightmare, how about a nice 'slap on' electro frame? Do something like the Hyperframe, only do it right.

[bryceeden]

I think that the new trigger will greatly increase the mags popularity, and what noone that I have read has said is that mags chuff with the I-frame if you walk the trigger fast, and it only takes alittle practice to get over it. Most people do not walk the triggers on current mags, but it is possible and they do chuff so it isn't a new problem it is just that more people will be walking the trigger so it will be seen more. I think that the trigger should be beta tested by 10-15 people, and then their oppinions on chuffing should decide what is done. For now I say realese it, because it isn't a new problem and with a little practice it can be overcome.


Bryce Eden

[Cryer]

Originally posted by MaxPowers
Instead of another potential P.R. nightmare, how about a nice 'slap on' electro frame? Do something like the Hyperframe, only do it right.

This was the original form of the ULE trigger, but AO opted for a mechanical trigger with a comparable pull. Better reliability. Now that there are so many problems (ie Chuffing:p, On-Off orings), that might have been the better course of action...

[Eric Cartman]

In the 10 years that I've had my classic mag, I've hardly ever chopped a ball. I used good paint and never found it to be an issue.
I play a lot of rec ball but have never played in a tournament and have absolutely no desire to. Because of this, tournament rules don't matter to me. Many people will disagree with me, but I find that taking the game too seriously takes the fun out of it. It seems that if anyone loses their cool at the field where I play, it's usually a team player who seems to have lost sight of the fact that it's just a game and there are no trophies or prizes on the line.
I'd really love to have the lighter trigger and I can't afford an Emag. I've already purchased an Xvalve, an Intelliframe and a Max Flo reg this year (that's with Canadian pesos too, so I got owned by the taxes and the exchange rate!).
I think you should sell the new trigger with a serious disclaimer attached. Only sell it through the E store and this way you can ensure that everyone is made aware of the disclaimer. Feedback will turn up on the forum very shortly after it's made available and this will help others decide if this mod is for them or not.
As long as it's not a big deal to reverse the modification and go back to your original trigger set up, and the cost is not too high, people can just chalk it up as a learning experience if they find that this mod doesn't work for them.
Please don't put this on the back burner or make this unavailable to all of us! I'm sure a lot of us would love to try this thing and would be smart enough not to hold it against AGD if it didn't work out. We've all been very clearly warned that there may be issues with this mod.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The fact Tom Kaye brought up that this new trigger easily leads to "chuffs" and didn't even refer to the chuff that I as well as bryceeden have encountered with I-frames when you're trying to shoot fast (which is short-stroking, I know that) means it could possibly be even easier to chuff with this trigger than a non-retro Mag trigger. If so, that's a key issue. If it's the same risk of chuffing, thats not too bad but having to get used to a trigger is bad because if you lose your timing once your gun is down or shooting inaccurately. That would KILL the rep of the Mag as a reliable gun. If it just risks chuffing but not more than before that is ok, and I still support my previous idea of investigating to see if some of the lightness of the trigger can be sacrificed in exchange for a shorter pull that's way more difficult to chuff.

And most if not all of us have NOT seen the internals of the ULE trigger so we're guessing here. I think when Tom finally explains how the internals work in detail we'll be able to decide if it sounds good or if options need to be discussed, such as scrapping the project, going back to initial design, a cheap LED E-frame (which would be nice), or changing it as I suggested and still having some benefit. BUT regardless of the many people who are happy to deal with chuffing, or at least say it here, if this item is standard or even common it's going to shape the rep of the Mag and the rep of chopping and chuffing, as chopping rumors still exist and chuffing would definitely aggravate peopple. A second rumor of unreliability will hurt AGD greatly. I say go affordable electronic.

[Clockwork_Orange]

It's unfortunate the ule trigger project isn't going too well. I think the project should still go on, it just needs a lot of time to be worked on and tested. Seriously people don't be selfish and try to rush a potential project that can evolve mech guns forever. AGD has not dissapointed me yet and I'm not expecting to be dissapointed by any of AGD's products! Even if it takes the project a year of testing I still think it would be worth it.

I'm a faithful mag owner and have been using my mag for about 4 years now. I have never had major problems chopping paint, because I learned how to shoot the trigger right(and believe me both my trigger fingers are sick!!!!). The way I see it, if you had problems chopping paint with a mag it's because you can't shoot the trigger right...that's the bottom line!

It's all fine and dandy to learn how to shoot a trigger, but in the middle of a game, under pressure, do you really think you're going to have the patience or even think about shooting the trigger right??? What would be the purpose of making an electronic frame if you have emags, xmags, hyperframes, boo yah's, etc... The development of a mechanical trigger that can out shoot most electros is history in the making!

Give Tom Kaye, his staff/team the time they need to continue their ongoing project and stop rushing and harassing them! I hear about complaints on the regular from other players that swear my mag is on full auto, and that's coming from players with electronic markers!!! You have to be kidding me if you're not already satisfied with the performance of the retro valve/x-valve.
Upgrade your grey matter 'cause 1 day it may matter!!!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The idea of a ULE trigger is great, but there's reasons it hasn't been done yet and why previous on/off mods have become obselete so far. Sadly enough, it may be that it's impossible to have a Mag with it's functional design be able to have a lighter pull that isn't a longer pull as well (leverage can always work but requires more travel time for complete pull) and not cause serious conseuences and side effects. If so, have a basic LED electronic trigger kit (~$200) that can drop into current frames or modifying the ULE trigger idea so it incorporates electronic activation of the sear/on-off could be a great idea. And most of us aren't rushing him, only those saying to forget about issues and release it as it currently is with no further experimenting.

I can shoot the trigger fine, but that's my whole point that it only takes one mis-step and loss of rhythm to chuff which we've all done, and if this trigger is very sensitive to that it's almost definite that would result in a barrel oozing paint. Electronics eliminate that because they fully cycle. Notice almost every tourney marker is electronic now? It's because they eliminate this concern, and people are willing to risk the board going out or battery dying for this feature. A reliable electronic will always beat a mechanical marker as long as you're smart enough to check the batteries.

[Clockwork_Orange]

Nobody is rushing Tom physically; verbally...yes! AGD is a small business, so Tom has more interaction and relation with his customers than most paintball manufacturers. With a small business you have to deal with a lot of supply and demands, especially if your competing with larger companies. Tom is doing his best (he's doing an excellent job!) to keep his customers happy as well as getting customers and prolonging the Automag legacy.

QUINCYMASSGUY, I understand what you mean about the consistent performance of an led frame, but what I think Tom is trying to do is change the way mech guns are looked at(performance wise). Electronic markers and frames alike are a part of the norm now! It's a little too early to see mechanical markers die out like pumps, especially a non electro mag. Changes like that make younger paintballers look past mechs and go right after an electro (Like the little kid you would see on the field with a $1,000.00 Angel). The way I see it, Mechs are like standard cars; you get a better feel of the performance! Electros are like automatic cars; You just sit back and let it perform on its own! You dig...;)




Upgrade your grey matter 'cause 1 day it may matter!!!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Clockwork, before I respond let me note that I actually partly agree with you and you're making good points, I'm only responding to make my points clearer and not trying to prove you wrong.

AGD is small, making a breakthrough and introducing a product to the market as quickly as possible is the way to make as much an impact as possible, if Tom had the funds or got a loan to invest and get the ULE frame, Level 10, and XValve out fully and waaaaay earlier you'd see them everywhere and AGD would have made more of an impact and held more of the market. Quality is good, but not if you can't deliver it to a full extent. They need to grow then which is the idea of selling more and having more customers. The big companies are big because they are successful.

That's fine if he's trying to change mechs, but I think the analogy is kind of off. I see it being better thinking regular steering versus power steering. Power steering makes it shorter and lighter but requires power, exactly as an E-trigger does. If you went to a car dealership and they say "it doesn't have power steering but it gives that classic feel" what would you think? Do you know any new car without power steering? They evolved when power steering became reliable AND affordable almost all the time, so manual became obselete, which manual triggers should if E-triggers can be the same. Hence, the LED which is more affordable than an LCD which is really excess features some people don't want to buy.

And if you were holding a $900 Angel Speed and a $900 upgraded ULE Mag with the new superlight trigger and everything else AGD is making minus an E-frame and said "take whichever you want to play with today" I assure you I will have grabbed the Angel Speed out of your hand before you even finished the sentence. Why else do you think the XMag became available?

[Clockwork_Orange]

Marketing wise, you're definately right about AGD's progress and other businesses being successful, but It was the hiatus that they took that held them back, so now it's going to take time for them to get back up in the higher ranks financial within the paintball industry (then monopolize the paintball industry and take over the world...hahahahaha!)

I know you are trying not to prove me wrong, and I know you are trying to make your point clearer and believe me I understand what you mean (this has just turned into a friendly debate;)). As for the $900 Angel speed vs. The $900 upgraded ULE mag...It's a no-contest (in the consumer world)! That's Why Emag's and Xmags were created; to bring the mags competition to a minimum.;) Between a ULE hooked up to the T ULE trigger and all vs. a $2,000 Cocker, which would you choose?

As for the car analogy, You mentioned power steering vs. regular steering. I see what you mean, but any car whether it's from the dealership or not, old or new can always be modified for power steering with ease, but how many high performance cars do you know of that aren't standard and provide that classic feel? Atleast 90% of them are standard. A mech doesn't have to be a classic if it is evolving through technolgy; don't you think?

[Clockwork_Orange]

The LED frame is a good idea, but when the boo yah and hyperframe came out for mags not too many people went out of their way to purchase them, so they became pretty much useless. Do you think the risk of creating a new frame is still worth the cost at AGD's expense? Most people prefered having the Mag with a mechanical trigger rather than buying one of the electric frames. Don't get me wrong I love electros, but it's the concept behind an ehanced mechanical trigger that's gonna keep it around for years to come and make them more appealing to the public eye. Autocockers are mech guns too, but look at the cost of one of the higher end Autocockers... There prices are horendis, because of all the work that's put into one of those markers and of course, because they're high in demand.


I'm late for class! Later...:)

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The key issues with the Hyperframe and Booyah was that the setup and using them with a Mag sear was causing bolt chipping, sear damage, and all that when they cost WAY too much money, and kind of looked cheesy too (I don't like how they look, my opinion). It voided warranties and you paid $350 to do that, most people held off. An affordable LED under warranty with AGD using the technology of the new ULE trigger to make it feasible and affordable could be worth it. Especially if the current ULE trigger idea has problems which is does right now.

And I disagree with the mechanicals being around forever, it's because boards fry from water, paint, impact, whatever, and for people without $3400 (the cost of a pair of Dark Angels) they got to invest in a cheaper primary and backup gun and can't afford to buy a new board if one happens to go. And manual vs. automatic transmission would be more of a comparison to one-shot-one-pull and full auto, and Pball players and tournament runners are sticking to that manual feel.

Either way, great discussion but no matter what people are saying now, if shooting the new trigger proves problematic then people are going to be moving back away from Mags other than the XMag and switching to Angels and Intimidators, two of the most commonly seen guns now, and AGD will have lost the momentum they got. They need a light, short trigger. If they can pull off the mechanic one, cool, but if the idea used in the on/off can be used to make an E-trigger that's reliable and cheap (LED) AGD should do that and produce the ULE trigger in real small numbers for the limited few who would rather use it instead of an E-trigger.

An idea for the E-trigger. Again, PURELY hypothetical, hoping my ideas help: can a new ULE rail be used to contain the internals for a ULE E-trigger so a new gripframe wouldn't be needed? Battery (9v) stored in grip? REALLY short trigger pull (make an Angel user be amazed)? Better looking trigger than the Intelliframe trigger (more fancy)? That would be pretty cool. Oh and since I'm also in a tangent, how about a 15 degree frame (reverse Y) with the E-trigger to find a happy medium between the angel and the 45 degree standard? Won't break patents, would it?

I'm not demanding anything here, so no flaming me, just throwing ideas out hoping one catches the interest of all. Hope it helps.

[Mutilus]

I have been an angel user for 5 years or so and I really enjoyed Tom's Frame, I didn't notice the reactivity problem he is talking about but of course I only ran 200 rounds through the gun. There must be some way to bleed the air through some type of valving to lower the reactivity but still keep the crisp feel of the trigger as it stands now. I would have to play with it but I bet I will be able to figure it out. Let the torment begin but I was on teh design team for the Nova's and the Darkstars and the Lunacy which is now called the Assault 80 and I have been an airsmith for about 10 years now so I am sure I could figure it out. Anyway the thing that draws me to it is the fact then when companies like WDP and Bob Long put electronic boards in the grip frames they forget an essential step of coating the boards so unless you duct tape the seals around where the board is housed sooner of later you are going to experience water shortage in the board, and with Bushmasters and other Solenoid driven systems dirt and paint shells are your enemy in that they clog teh system, so a mechanical is more reliable. And in reference to the power steering vs. standard steering, the power steering is still mechanical not electronic it works off of the principles of fluid dynamics. Finally, the only way I can see a electro working well is if sealed in the grip better but then you run the gamble of overheating. Maybe the best route is an hydrolic trigger which applies pressure to a liquid filled chamber and compresses the sear to the outlet vales to actuate the trigger. Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I also think I rambled and probably make no sense at all.

[Gman63]

Just my 2 cents.. If there is any doubt that the product will performe flawlessly.. DO NOT RELEASE IT! Period. It makes better business sense in the long run not to chance regression back to the "Mags are paint blenders" days. Having worked for companies that released products before they were ready for market and felt the repurcussions from it it is not a wise idea. On a side note, BETA TEST... and not to select few tourny players. Contact fields and find out if they have any regular mag owners who might be willing to install this trigger on a marker and not only provide feed back but work it with general Rec-ball players and find the products strengths and weeknesses. I have shot about every marker out there but I love my Mags and even though I would love to have a mech trigger that would feel like an electro, I would not want AGD to release it if there was even the slightest possibility that it could cause problems which might ruin there reputation. :)

[tremis]

I can/will learn to use the trigger.

I am looking at both sides of the issue and a lot of valid points are being made. If I can be selfish for a moment, I want one. If the project gets scrapped, put the blueprints online so we can have them made ourselves, there wouldnt be a problem with AGDs rep and for sure only die hards would have one, the local noobs arent taking prints to a machine shop, thats for sure. I surely dont want to hurt AGD at all, and I also want this trigger in my gun.

I have been out of town since Tom made his post and was in the dark, but I almost called the local shop and had them order me an RTpro so I would have time to mill the rail and have the gun annoed before the trigger comes out at IAO (or did that change too). I'm sure glad I waited until I got home, I don't want to buy an RTpro if this trigger gets scrapped. Now I'm just going to wait for a final word.

You could always do a small run for us "die hards" make it a pay-in-full pre-order and make enough to cover that and see how it goes from there. You wouldnt get stiffed for money because everybody will have already paid. Call it a beta test so we are warned in advance of the potential for bugs and your concience is free and clear.

Well, thats my take on it.

Tremis

[Mutilus]

That is a great idea Pay for Preorder is a great deal. Also whay if the reactivity was adjustable? That would fix the issue with tourney play right?

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by Mutilus
That is a great idea Pay for Preorder is a great deal. Also whay if the reactivity was adjustable? That would fix the issue with tourney play right?

well i've been saying this all along about making it adjustable...(and im not the only one)
but Tom's at D-day... so when he gets back maybe we'll hear more in the way of how he feels about it

hopefully, at the very least, he'll atleast do a small production run of them...i'll prepay in full...(and i still have to find someone to drill my valve)

[cockersuk14]

i thought i had heard of successful attempts while using an X-Valve, or retro valve, and X-Valves are tournament legal because it is not the trigger which is reactive but rather the valve. So if this is true what seems to be the problem?

[cockersuk14]

I agree with Tremis. A test run is a very good idea. And possibly the best if AGD still intends on making this thing work.

quote Tremis-You could always do a small run for us "die hards" make it a pay-in-full pre-order and make enough to cover that and see how it goes from there. You wouldnt get stiffed for money because everybody will have already paid. Call it a beta test so we are warned in advance of the potential for bugs and your concience is free and clear.

[Mr Orange]

MHO

"Quality Always Shoots Straight" is the way to be. If it isn't quality, don't release it. As much as I want it NOW and know I could shoot it, don't release until it is fool proof. A BETA TEST is fine, so long as it is marketed that way. Plenty of companies do this and I don't feel user testing would hurt the mags image.

[David9862]

I know that to be real fast with any trigger takes alot of pratice. I think this kit should come seperatly or if it is included with the x-valve then it should have the original X-valve replacement parts. That way, if the player still have not learned how to shoot right but wanted to play they still could without chuffing. When they were done playing, they could switch back for more trigger pratice. Either way I hope Tom will let us know the status of the trigger that way I can buy my x-valve without wondering if I missed out on an even better deal.:D

[dcmander]

Originally posted by David9862
I know that to be real fast with any trigger takes alot of pratice. I think this kit should come seperatly or if it is included with the x-valve then it should have the original X-valve replacement parts. That way, if the player still have not learned how to shoot right but wanted to play they still could without chuffing. When they were done playing, they could switch back for more trigger pratice. Either way I hope Tom will let us know the status of the trigger that way I can buy my x-valve without wondering if I missed out on an even better deal.:D

I'm in the same boat, although I do want a colored valve. :)

Anyone have any idea of what the new design is going to be? I know Tom said it is going to be standard on all xvalves..emag, xmag, etc.