Test:: X-Mag vs Angel Speed

[Cyberious]

OK I got the Speed. First let me preface my impromptu test. My X-Mag has an o-ring and one magnet in the frame and a short trigger pull. I immediately adjusted the Speed's pull to approximately the same pull length.

Weight- Removed everything but the barrels. Pretty close. The Speed's weight is more toward the back of the marker. The X-Mag as expected is balanced towards the middle. The Speed is probably a bit lighter.

Width - The X-Mag is definitely more thin from the back.

Grip Angle - I do like the angle on the Speed. Since I'm having some problems with carpal tunnel I do find the Speed's grip is somewhat more comfortable.

Volume - The Speed is LOUD. I put a 14" Dye Ultralite on the Speed and a 12" Dye Ultralite on the X-Mag (the two closest I had). Shot a few rounds and noted that the Speed definitely has a louder signature.

Accuracy - No noticible difference at similar FPS speeds. I used PMI Premium and both were reasonably accurate.

Cycling speed - No doubt about it the X-Mag is noticeably faster. Now in all fairness the trigger was stiffer on the Speed probably because it is new. But the rate of fire with the X-Mag was easily 2-3 balls per second (my estimation) faster.

I then took both down to my local shop to get air and asked the guy there to try both. He is normally accustomed to a Lasoya Timmy. He tried the Speed first and commented "not bad". He then tried the X-Mag and said "Wow" that is faster. I too could here the difference in cycling speed when he fired.

In the end both are excellent markers and either would serve a player well. Both have some advantages over the other. As a back player I prefer the X-Mags cycling speed and balance. Accuracy was a non factor as was weight. Once again I do like the grip angle of the Speed but this is a personal preference. I will however keep the X-Mag as my primary marker. Later in the day the Speed will come in handy as my wrist begins to bother me.

For those of you who are considering both, the price and current availability of the Speed make it an attractive option and are its biggest strengths. The simplicity, durability, configurability, and performance of the X-Mag are its strongest assets.

In the end it is up to you to decide. Hope this helps.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Oh thats very nice. Very niiiice! This summer I've been looking into getting a backup marker. I figured I'd look into a Speed, or one of the Nasy Impulses they sell down in Taneytown. Will have to see. Are you going to get rid of the System X cocker?

[Cyberious]

Yup, put it up forsale down at the shop.

[eg0_Slayer]

did you use the halo on both markers when testing?...I ask because iif you used the halo on the "X" and the ricco on the speed, wouldnt that affect the ROF?...otherwise a great test!

[Cyberious]

Most of the ROF tests I did were without paint. But the one I did do, I used my wife's EVOII off her Dark Angel on both since Speeds don't seem to like Halo's from everything I've read and I wanted to be as fair as possible.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I did adjust the Speeds ROF to the maximum it would allow me.

[Jack & Coke]

Nice:)http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Although, this is not really a test (no recorded test data of controlled conditions), it's a comparison based on subjectivity.

Nonetheless, excellent insiteful contribution! :)

[Cyberious]

True. I did try to be as fair as possible since I relly don't have any way to really test in a totally controlled environment. But good point nonetheless.

[Jack & Coke]

Does the SPEED have a full-auto feature?

How about recording a sound clip for us?

Just use your computer (if you have a mic), and record a wav file.

Then zip it up and post it as an attachment.

Be sure it's less than 300K

:)

[Cyberious]

Haven't figured that out yet. The LED is a little more difficult to interpret. I'll try and do a .Wav file of both markers and post on Monday. I'll have to record it with my PDA and transfer it over when I can dock it.

[gibby]

Some guys have too much fun with their toys! Very cool! :)

[WARPED1]

The Speed only has semi auto features, no fa to waste your time.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by WARPED1
The Speed only has semi auto features, no fa to waste your time.

fa is not a waste of time.http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif

Please explain how it is a "waste of time"?:rolleyes:

It's not like you have to bypass fa in order to use your gun in semi. Current guns with fa, have it there as an option.

Besides, fa is the best way to check the Max ROF claim/potential of a gun.

The full ROF capability of HiTech's supped up Hyperframe would not be known if not for fa. (http://home.earthlink.net/~larrydela/images/hyper2.avi)

fa has it's uses...

[~WarpedRT#2~]

It IS totally useless. These guns aren't (and I dont care who flames me) rec markers. In a tournament setting, full auto has no place, and neither does half of the other useless features an Angel has. Semi is the only thing you need.

Who really cares what a guns max rate of fire is, when you can never reach it. Why don't you just say, that the gun will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, and beyond? It makes alot more sence.

Also, full auto on alot of guns isnt as fast as some people can pull, so it isnt as accurate as you think.

Man that Speed does look nice though. Too bad to hear the System X cocker is gone, but I know you will keep the Cole.

[MagKoko]

that's dirty. To have those two guns backed up to each other

[rehme]

did the speed leak under 1k?

there was one at my pro shop and it leaked under 1k

[Cyberious]

No, no leaks yet.

<<<<QUOTE:
that's dirty. To have those two guns backed up to each other>>>>

Yeah, I know Angels shouldn't be allowed that close to an X-Mag. It may get Angel Cooties.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by ~WarpedRT#2~
It IS totally useless. These guns aren't (and I dont care who flames me) rec markers. In a tournament setting, full auto has no place, and neither does half of the other useless features an Angel has. Semi is the only thing you need.

Who really cares what a guns max rate of fire is, when you can never reach it. Why don't you just say, that the gun will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, and beyond? It makes alot more sence.

Also, full auto on alot of guns isnt as fast as some people can pull, so it isnt as accurate as you think.

Man that Speed does look nice though. Too bad to hear the System X cocker is gone, but I know you will keep the Cole. Ditto, people like manufacturers should be the only ones with fa. 99% of fields will not allow any mode other than semi. No turbo, no burst, semi only. Therefore a waste. A consumer(us) do not need to check things like mrof and recharge rates and stuff. We only need the gun to shoot at what we aim at. One pull=one ball fired! And that's all I have to say about that.........

[Jack & Coke]

There's a difference between:

"...there's no need..."

and

"...it's useless..."

I'm not arguing if there's a need to use it in a tournament.

You are incorrect in saying it's "useless". It may be your myopic opinion, but you are still wrong.

For diagnostics, performance research, and benchmarking, it is very useful.

"Who cares?"

The same people who have the curiousity that engineer and push race cars faster and faster for those who drive them.

race car engineer vs. race car driver

Someone will always care.

You just have to be intelligent enough to realize it's uses... :rolleyes:

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
There's a difference between:

"...there's no need..."

and

"...it's useless..."

I'm not arguing if there's a need to use it in a tournament.

You are incorrect in saying it's "useless". It may be your myopic opinion, but you are still wrong.

For diagnostics, performance research, and benchmarking, it is very useful.

"Who cares?"

The same people who have the curiousity that engineer and push race cars faster and faster for those who drive them.

race car engineer vs. race car driver

Someone will always care.

You just have to be intelligent enough to realize it's uses... :rolleyes: The average consumer(us) do not need diagnostic and benchmark stuff, we only need it to fire where we point it! Leave the tests and crap to the manufacturers. They should spend that r+d money they spend on fa stuff and r+d a perfectly round pb or something. Something the average consumer(us) can actually use on a regular basis.

[Jack & Coke]

your statement "...it's useless..." only pertains to certain playing conditions.

This is not the arguement.

...slow down and try to comprehend what I said:

There's a difference between:

"...there's no need..."

and

"...it's useless..."

I'm done trying to explain it to you.

If you wish to discuss this more, start a new thread "FA IS USELESS" or just PM me.

Let's give Cyberious back his thread: "X-Mag vs Angel Speed"

[Frank (the spank)]

Thank you Cyberious!

I asked.. and got a review of the two side by side. Ya rule man, great job! :)

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Cyberious wont mind if I steal his thread for just one more note.

You see, the people who buy things (consumers) dont ever push anything harder (like cars, or guns for that matter) because thats the manufacturers job. You will never see ANYONE driving down the road with a totally custom body kit on their car that THEY THEMSELVES made. The manufacurer makes them, and sells them. Hence the reason race car drivers are paid to DRIVE and mechanics are paid to FIX. None of these people actually make their own parts, thats why they6 trust the manufacturer to give them the parts. (thats called sponsors). Everything that people use to "push" their equipment faster is made by an experienced set of people. A company.

In reality, there really is no need for full auto. But if you TRUST the maker of the gun, then it should be useless. Right?

And thanks Jack & Coke, I'm not stupid. Although you on the other hand... :rolleyes:

[Frank (the spank)]

Is there a use for FA? Yeah! For fun!

A simple jumper to disable it and when ya wanna have fun in the backyard spelling out things in paint.. go full auto. Also a good way to test your gun out, as far as feeding etc.

Anyways.. it brings a smile to my face to know the X-Mag still has the edge in speed. Yesterday at the fild one guy said "damn everyones shooting those speeds" and my buddy that has a speed goes "thats because they're the best" and the two Speeds on the field had problems and they had to call themselves out. The owner and ref said my e-mag was the fastest gun on the field as well.

Hey.. it's not that important, it's just nice to know I am not limited by my gear.. which pushes me to become a better player.

It amazes me no one else shoots E/X-Mags...

[~WarpedRT#2~]

I shoot an E-Mag. A real nice one too.

[minimag187]

Dont forget the speed is about $450 cheaper, or $350 depending if it is faded or not. I would rather have an xmag myself too, just passing that by.

[Cyberious]

Originally posted by Frank (the spank)
Thank you Cyberious!

I asked.. and got a review of the two side by side. Ya rule man, great job! :)


Glad I could help. I do have to say the Speed is more efficient on air...alot more efficient. I still like my X-Mag better though.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by ~WarpedRT#2~
Cyberious wont mind if I steal his thread for just one more note.

You see, the people who buy things (consumers) dont ever push anything harder (like cars, or guns for that matter) because thats the manufacturers job. You will never see ANYONE driving down the road with a totally custom body kit on their car that THEY THEMSELVES made. The manufacurer makes them, and sells them. Hence the reason race car drivers are paid to DRIVE and mechanics are paid to FIX. None of these people actually make their own parts, thats why they6 trust the manufacturer to give them the parts. (thats called sponsors). Everything that people use to "push" their equipment faster is made by an experienced set of people. A company.

In reality, there really is no need for full auto. But if you TRUST the maker of the gun, then it should be useless. Right?

And thanks Jack & Coke, I'm not stupid. Although you on the other hand... :rolleyes:

ok i hate to be that guy and go off topic again but when i read this i felt compelled to correct this flawed logic...
although this may be your opinion as to how consumers work...it's not everyone's opinion...
basically what you're saying is don't ask questions, trust the manufacturers...we can't possibly improve on what they do...
do you think this is the type of thinking that contributes to or diminishes innovation?
do you think this is how the Wright brothers thought? or Henry Ford? or Tom Kaye for that matter...
I for one am glad we didn't just leave things up to Brass Eagle
now I'm not claiming that anyone on here is a Henry Ford but I'm just saying think before you speak

and by the way J&C(although he doesnt need my defense) from the posts of his i've read, seems to be a rather intelligent guy...questioning that is just pety don't you think?

sorry Cyberious
back to you

[mag-hatter]

i dont get why people say "that gun is faster than this gun" when they are both extremely high end guns that are both capable of 30+bps, and in simi auto. no human can do 30bps simi auto.

[nippinout]

When does the Angel SPEED kick in the varying dwell times?

Is there a way to disable the varying dwell so it is constant no matter what the bps or time between shots is?

Can the user change these settings? Even with it locked out to the player, changing stock parts would affect the velocity.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Jerhew, when did I say not to ask questions? It's easy to pretend I said things I didn't, but one thing I never said was, to not ask questoins. You should question everything. Religion, cars, and paintball. But what I'm saying is, you should trust the maker of the gun. I did, in no way say, "go buy blindly" did I? We all here question our gear, especially our marker. Thats why we have forums, to help each other. We can ask questions, and even ask the maker of the gun whats up. The point is to do your homework, see if something is right for you and ask questions. And without Brass Eagle, paintball would probably die. More people get their first gun through them at Wal-Mart, than anywhere else.

Also, if you hadnt read his post, the only reason I insinuated he was stupid, was because he did so to me. It's a 1 for 1. Just because I see the world differently than you doesnt mean I have a flawed view. I've got nothing against Jack & Coke, we just see things differently.

Maybe you should read before you post.

[Jerhew]

i've read every last word in this thread and that is still my opinion on things

and by the way, as far as the brass eagle comment i made, my point was simply that i'm glad they aren't the only company in paintball, i'm very grateful that Tom Kaye decided he could "do it better" so to speak and started AGD

and btw i used the word flawed on purpose because you insinuated(good word by the way) that J&C's opinions are flawed... do you see what i'm getting at?

i guess i don't think you get my point but instead of going any further, i'm going to leave it alone

out of respect for the thread topic and Cyberious this will be my last post about this.

if you absolutely feel it's necessary to continue this, pm me... i'm sure no one else wants to see our debate

[Evil Bob]

Yes, Jack has a tendency to jump onto the "you're an idiot" band wagon in the threads and start with the personal insults when you question his opinion, and he usually is the one to start throwing the mud first. He is also usually very thorough with his testing and generally backs it up with sound clips, pictures, and movies to show the results, all in all, he is a great contributor here at AO.

That aside, Jack does have a valid point here, there is a need for third party testing independant of the manufacturers to test out their claims vs marketing hype and misinformation.

Companies such as Consumer Reports do third party testing of products for the specific debunking of hype and marketing myth that companies can spew to try to entice you to buy their product over their competitors, that's business. They also show how a given manufacturer's product compares to other similar products in the field. They test the very same products you and I can purchase off the shelf and not the special "for reviewers eyes only" supped up versions that will skew the test results.

Granted, FA is generally not usable for players "playing" paintball due to legal stipulations (being outlawed at 99% of the fields out there), but it does have applications elsewhere off of the field of play. It can actually be alot of fun to blow through a bunch of paint, write your name on the wall so to speak, or as Jack has put forth here, test the physical limitations of your marker to see how fast it really can fire.

-Evil Bob

[gibby]

I believe the USE of FA on the field is never needed. However, knowing the capabilities of your equipment is also important in knowing your marker, and what it can and can't do.

It's just like buying a computer...a lot of people spend thousands of dollars buying the best stuff...for what? Web browsing and email? (However, gamers do use the full potential of their gaming rigs.) But in this case, web browsing and email hardly pushes what their new computer can do...yet, they still want to know what's inside(CPU, memory, hard drive speed, video card, etc.) because they want to be sure they are getting the best deal for what they are paying for.

I guess depending on the kind of information you get, most of the time, information is useful in many respects.

[Evil Bob]

Excellant example there gibby!

What high end equipment allows us to do is play at our best with only ourselves as the limitating factor, not the hardware we are using.

Playing with low end gear is akin to handicapping in bowling or golf, you're imposing artificial limits on how well you can perform on top of your physical limitations.

The pro with the 1 BPS 12g CO2 PGP pump is not going to dominate in speedball unless everyone else is using similar equipment, at which point the person with the skills will usually win. Give them a spyder that can keep up with 10bps and they'll start to feel better about their game. Give them their favorite top end marker and they'll be right at home with playing at their best. Once you level out the field technologywise, it boils down to skills, execution, and a good deal of luck, that win the games.

Half of your confidence at that level comes from knowing your hardware well (how it shoots and performs) and that it can keep up with the demands you place upon it. The other half comes from knowing that you have the skills necessary and you can beat the other person at the other end of the field.

-Evil Bob

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Well Bob, I have to say, while I don't agree with your point of view, I thank you for replying in a way that didn't involve an insult. While you havent changed my view, you have instilled in me that at least one person can disagree in a polite manner. Thankyou.

But we really should give this thread back to Cyberious. As a matter of fact, I have a question for him. Did the position of the trigger (looks a bit strange) have anything to do with your rate of fire? I notice on the Speed, the top of the trigger is a bit far forward. I was thinking that might somehow slow down pulling the trigger.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by ~WarpedRT#2~
Cyberious wont mind if I steal his thread for just one more note.

You see, the people who buy things (consumers) dont ever push anything harder (like cars, or guns for that matter) because thats the manufacturers job.

I'd like to state a contrary opinion, not neseccarily an arguement. I for one push every peice of performance equipment I own. Things are designed with more than the average ask nothing consumer in mind. I paid $25,000 for my truck. Sometimes I treat it like a rented mule. Because thats what it was built for. The people that get the most use out of thier equipment, are the people that push their stuff harder. I'd rather have something break from good use, than to never really use it to its fullest potential. Sure I push the things I buy.
I also agree that the FA option has no place on the Speed. It was built with another intention in mind - Mowing suckas down. No nonsence performance (the reason Emags never came with FA) But non-the less, FA is very useful.

[Cyberious]

My cat licks himself in really wierd places... I figured if we were going to continue to be Off Topic I should post something off topic too. :-)

[JEDI]

Sorry 'bout that. Question for you. Which marker would be easier to keep up a sustained high rate of fire. Could you unload an entire hopper at relatively the same speed all the way through with either gun?

[Cyberious]

The X-Mag. Since the Speed has a spring up there it is a little stiffer to pull. I have finally been able to get up to similar ROF on the Speed though but it does take a little extra effort. I'm going to try and do a torture test this weekend. (This entails running 3000 paintballs through as fast as I can only stopping to get more air). I'll do it side by side and record the number of breaks if you are all interested.

[No sKiLLz]

Where did all you lucky schmucks get X-mags?!!! J/K My friend is still waiting for his and I can't wait to take it through the paces. A guy I played with two weeks ago had a speed and even though it was pretty fast (and LOUD) it was cutting paint like a teppan (<---is that spelled right) chef at Benihanas. I thought the gratuitous "Love Meter" on the grip was a little erroneous, but it dazzled the twelve year olds and ugly fat chicks that work at the field. Did your speed have problems busting its balls?

[Cyberious]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
Did your speed have problems busting its balls?

In the limited use it got no, but I do intend to put it through a torture test this weekend. I'll let you know.


Originally posted by No sKiLLz
Where did all you lucky schmucks get X-mags?!!!

X-Mags are in large supply on my planet of Love-Tron. But of course that is several light years away and many years in the future. You can get there though by reading the works of Steven Hawking extensively and then only after you have a complete understanding of the concept of Anti-Time as it relates to Space and Time and how they react at the Event Horizon of a Singularity near the Galactic Core. Oh yeah and a large amount of money doesn't hurt either.

[No sKiLLz]

Theoretically do you think that we can create a wormhole to that planet by getting Tom some classy hookers and a bottle of Jack?

[Cyberious]

I'm guessing not. The X-Mag is too precious a commodity to trade for just anything.

[Cyberious]

Well, over the weekend I did my further test on the Speed. A weekend ago or two ago I ran 3000 paintballs through my X-Mag without a break in three games.

So this past weekend I put the Speed thru a similar test only not in a game. I have to admit I was under impressed. I averaged 4 breaks every 1000 paintballs. I tried changing the COPS to each of the four settings after a break and the subsequent cleaning and it still didn't help. I would have understood if it chopped only when I let the hopper get empty but it broke a few times on a nearly full hopper. Of course the breaks occured during long (constant)firing strings of approximately 11-12bps. The Speed is a good marker and will do fine as a backup but only that. Although maybe a Y-Board EVO might help. I'll have to get one and try it out.

[Bolter]

two things. The X-mag (well mine anyway) doesn't break balls in the gun. I have played for 3 months now without a smeg in the breach.

The Speed may as well be a Kenwood Blender.

Not that I'm biased!
:D

[Cyberious]

Yeah the breaks kind of oozed out the gate like the thing was bleeding. I prefer my X-Mag out of any marker I own. I'd list them all but it would take too long and I need to get back to work :-)

[Bolter]

hehehe!! Yeah I've just played the DMA Millenium event in Amsterdam. (came 4th Pro!!) No breaks whatsoever. This is the best marker I have ever used. No offence to any other markers but they ain't a patch on the mag. Oh and I was gonna ask... where did you get those custom grips....?

[Cyberious]

The Grip Gurl (Frymarker) on AO but I don't think she makes them anymore.

[Bolter]

ok mate thanks!!

[MarkM]

Originally posted by nippinout
When does the Angel SPEED kick in the varying dwell times?

Is there a way to disable the varying dwell so it is constant no matter what the bps or time between shots is?

Can the user change these settings? Even with it locked out to the player, changing stock parts would affect the velocity.

The dwell setting is only variable in that the user can decide what setting they want...it is not auto sensing regards to dwell, the sensi settings has a sorta auto built into it but NOT the dwell. You are thinking about the claims made by Smart Parts for the new Shocker/Nerve...that all being TBA, as the Shocker '03 is alledged to being launched at Toulouse.


Originally posted by Cyberious
The X-Mag. Since the Speed has a spring up there it is a little stiffer to pull. I have finally been able to get up to similar ROF on the Speed though but it does take a little extra effort. I'm going to try and do a torture test this weekend. (This entails running 3000 paintballs through as fast as I can only stopping to get more air). I'll do it side by side and record the number of breaks if you are all interested.

Spring in a Speed? Where is this spring? The trigger for the Speed has NO spring for the trigger return and it has an extra grub screw for adjusting the trigger that previous Angels didn't have...if you mean the thin "slightly" sprung strip of metal in the electronics housing then I guess you could call that a spring as it does bend and then return in a manner very much the same as a spring...LCD's and IR3's do have a spring in the trigger assembly though many people remove them in the IR3 or put a softer one in its place.

[Cyberious]

Originally posted by MarkM
Spring in a Speed? Where is this spring? The trigger for the Speed has NO spring for the trigger return and it has an extra grub screw for adjusting the trigger that previous Angels didn't have...if you mean the thin "slightly" sprung strip of metal in the electronics housing then I guess you could call that a spring as it does bend and then return in a manner very much the same as a spring...LCD's and IR3's do have a spring in the trigger assembly though many people remove them in the IR3 or put a softer one in its place.

You are correct. I did notice there wasn't a spring like the one my wife's Dark Angel has but the little strip of metal that engages the microswitch in the grip does have a similar feel to it. Bottom line is that it does make it feel a bit stiffer than my X-Mag's trigger setup. So is there a way to adjust the paint sensor to lessen chops? I did run throught the steps in the Manual but that didn't seem to help a great deal.

[Frank (the spank)]

Cyberious, seriosuly.. you need to make a Paintball gun review site, lol

Great information as always.

[Cyberious]

That'd mean I'd have to buy more markers. Don't know if the wife would like that. I'd also need more room so I'd probably have to drop to one Drum kit. (I have two kits setup in the same room I have my Paintball stuff in). Thanks for the vote of confidence.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by Cyberious


You are correct. I did notice there wasn't a spring like the one my wife's Dark Angel has but the little strip of metal that engages the microswitch in the grip does have a similar feel to it. Bottom line is that it does make it feel a bit stiffer than my X-Mag's trigger setup. So is there a way to adjust the paint sensor to lessen chops? I did run throught the steps in the Manual but that didn't seem to help a great deal.

Ok first off I apprieciate your reply :cool: However the flat piece of metal doesn't engage a micro switch, it breaks an infra red beam, there isn't a microswitch in a Speed, the first IR3's had a microswitch, then it was changed to the opto board. The trigger return on a Speed is anything but stiff....I personally would prefer to have a spring in the trigger but thats just me I like to "feel" the trigger, wierd magnetic floppyness (only way I can describe it sorry not meant as a flame) isn't something I like. The paint sensor...are you still talking about the Speed? As after you have set the marker with the paint you are using for the day the sensi setting is down to the user to decide as to what level of sensitivety it has or not to use it at all.