Why do people say that close bolt is more accurate

[m-98]

I know that neither closed nor open bolt guns are more accurate than each other but why do people believe that closed bolt is more accurate? Is it just hype or is there some sort of strange (bad) logic behind it?

[pbguy888]

They fell for the hype :eek:

DONT FALL FOR THE HYPE!!!!!!!!

[m-98]

I don't fall for the hype, I'm just wondering.

[jaylock33]

Ignorance! The only thing that matters is ball to barrel match.

[Peach]

and consistancy. Cockers have good consistance which leads to nice shot placement with a good paint-barrel match. Thats where most people draw their conclusions from that. Oh cockers close bolt, nice accuracy, HMM I GUESS IT'S ACCURATE BECAUSE OF CLOSED BOLT!

An oiled mag shoots just as nice as cockers. Ignorance is bliss, so let them have it the way they want.

[ezrunner]

There are many factors to accuracy in shooting.

The balance, weight and recoil of each marker make it easier or harder to shoot more accurately.

I'm not getting into a religious debate or into 6 million physics equations (I have a math minor and a physics background but that isn't needed for this).

You must have a good barrel / paint match AND you must have a consistent air supply and valve configuration.

Now, shooting from a vise and shooting on the field are two different things and you have to learn to shoot whatever you have.

That being said, the cocker crowd seems to have historically had lower rates of fire so they tended to "make their shots count" while at the same time the mag crowd had better rates of fire so they had more firepower.

Then we all figured out we could get barrels that matched our paint better and everything evened out.

Now you can pick most any gun and put a good tank and reg on it, with a freak barrel and shoot accurately.

It is a carry over from the tourney days of old when you either shot a mag or a cocker.

-rob

[AlabamaMan]

for the same reason cockers shoot further than mags. It's just the way it is.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

WGP found a way to market a gun that was an outdated pump gun, in a way that makes them more money, and gives them a good rep. It just makes more people buy your gun when you say it has more range. The whole range thing was something that must have been started by them to sell more guns.

I heard a theory somewhere that they might actually fire farther because of the bolt. Seriously. The back block on a cocker flies back, lifting the barrel up a little. The bolt in a mag flies foreward, pushing the barrel downward, making it seem as though it has a shorter range. I'm not sure if this has ANY truth to it at all, but it makes for some nice convo.

[m-98]

Thanks for answering, I knew all the paint/barrell match stuff so maybe I sould have worded my question better.

Here: Where did the idea that closed bolt is more accurate/better range come from.

In retrospect, the whole quetion is dumb, because nobody probably knows where those ideas came from.

[Lopy-slopy]

It was allredy answerd by one guy. People see cocker's and they see there acurate. they think hey it's probibly cux their closed bolt. I've heard that the fact that it fires from the closed postion make the air it the ball more evenly or something, but it's all BS anyway. Cocker's are acurate guns, but it's not the closed bolt that makes them that way.

[hitmanng]

Actually at least some of the people that believe it have a reason. In a closed bolt marker the ball is surrounded at all times by the barrel/chamber. That means it cannot move. It is starting from a very consistant place. In an open bolt gun the ball is rolled in and can theoretically roll around alittle or bach the way it came. This gives inconsistancy the the starting location. I have heard it described as the difference between blowing a ball of your open hand as opposed to out of a blow gun.
I am not saying it is true or not. I am just explaining the debate instead of just ignoring the opinions that we don't agree with.
Hitmanng

[Jerhew]

this is always so silly to me

on a mag the ball drops into the chamber, the bolt pushes it forward, seals the chamber and fires the ball

on a cocker you have to cycle the gun once to chamber the first ball...so the first time you pull the trigger all it does is let out a puff of air and in the second half of the trigger pull, the bolt comes back, the ball drops into the chamber, the bolt pushes it forward, seals the chamber at which point it's possible to immediately fire the ball

the point where the bolt is at rest matters not because when firing one ball after another, the actions involved in firing the gun appear identical from the balls point of view

and btw it's been said a million times but the whole range thing...
unless you have backspin (z body, flatline) your 300fps is going to fire a ball just as far as my 300fps will.

oh ya by the way
if one was proven to be better than the other and not just the source of the silly old debate...
the other company would've been out of business a long time ago :D

[Ov3rmind]

What most people fail to notice is that at high rates of fire any closed bolt gun fires just like an open bolt gun. So any "inherent accuracy" a closed bolt gun may have during slow paced shots would be lost. Unfortunately, my Cocker seems to be just as accurate during rapid firing as well and slow paced shots (in other words, just as accrate as any other gun).

[Blazestorm]

Sorry.

But we cocker owners have knomes. They go inside the balls to insure our balls go directly where we want. I have proof. I will show you later.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by Blazestorm
Sorry.

But we cocker owners have knomes. They go inside the balls to insure our balls go directly where we want. I have proof. I will show you later.
I noticed a bunch of dead gnomes in my breech today.:(

[nippinout]

I can make an autococker shoot farther! Just push on the cocking rod a little bit before you fire. :D

One thing that is beneficial from a two-staged gun is the ability to time the events. You can also use different pressures to operate the bolt and the valve pneumatics.

And you can create ball-suck. But with warpfeeds and HALO's it just wastes air doing so.

Autocockers are just cool!

[Grasshopper]

Why do people say that closed bolt is more accurate? The same reason people say chrome adds 5+ feet onto your range. Because it's true.

[deathstalker]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this. I thought it was common knowledge that putting a "Type R" sticker on your hopper increases range by 15%. In order to increase accuracy, you should use a "Powered by AGD" sticker.

[GT]

Originally posted by deathstalker
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this. I thought it was common knowledge that putting a "Type R" sticker on your hopper increases range by 15%. In order to increase accuracy, you should use a "Powered by AGD" sticker.

and the fake BOV next to the valve:D

jb

[Recon by Fire]

Maybe if we held our markers out at arms length rather than tucked in tight, we could also increase our ranges...

[tysonmachado]

With a pump action marker closed bolt designs tend to be more "accurate." When bench mounted and tested there is no difference in precision, the difference come when they are held and fired. In an open bolt pump action marker the bolt and hammer both move when the trigger is pulled. In a closed bolt pump action the bolt only moves when it is re-cocked. When the trigger is pulled only the hammer moves. Because less mass is moving when the marker is fired a closed bolt pump action will not jerk as much so it is less likely to throw off your aim.

This only applies to pumps, all semis recock automatically so the bolt moves at some point in every firing cycle. Of course, if you are skilled and well aquainted with your marker you will instinctively correct for this. No matter what your marker does when fired, as long as it does it consistently every time you will become accustomed to it. For example, if your marker consitently fires two degrees to the left you will learn to aim two degrees to the right.

[Richter]

my theory an i have nothing to back it up is that closed bolts are only more accurate on the first shot because nothing is impeading the ball. The only thing impeading the ball is the ball detent. With a close bolt you don't have the friction of the ball detent to create a slight amount of spin on the ball. now a tighter barrel will compensate for this but you risk ball breakage. I think that is why lapco barrels became so popular. I use to notice back in the day that on the far end of the range of my mag that the ball tended to hook to one side. Now many people match thier paint to there barrel and get rid of this issue more or less. But i think that is my back in the day people use to shoot cockers, and the other reason was because you could cheat with them. Examples are thumbing cocking rods, pulling up on the trigger (with sloppy siding tirggers) to get chrono speed down only to shoot hot on the field. I remember the 295 298 296 on the chrono when you pulled up peoples trigger and when pull normally or on the bottom of a double trigger it would shot 305 310 309. That is why refs were only allowed to shoot the markers after awhile.

just some ramblings
Shane

[Miscue]

This is why: It is a known fact that closed bolt firearms are more accurate. This is because they have tighter tolerances.

However, people have misapplied firearm principles to paintball... and thus the myth that closed bolt markers are more accurate and such.

[Nomad]

I think it also is a bit of spill over from the firearms world.


Edit: Miscue beat me to it... :o

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by Miscue
This is why: It is a known fact that closed bolt firearms are more accurate. This is because they have tighter tolerances.

However, people have misapplied firearm principles to paintball... and thus the myth that closed bolt markers are more accurate and such.

hrm i didn't think of this angle
i learned something new today :D
well it seems that people try to apply a lot of things from real firearms that don't work on paintball guns...
like scopes :P

[Magluvr]

Someone mentioned that closed bolt guns might be more accurate because the ball doesn't move around, it is just sitting there. However, I would like to disagree because when the closed bolt guns originally loaded the ball the ball could move around just as much as in a open bolt gun. So in all actuality it doesn't seem to me that colosed bolts guarantee that the ball will always be in the same position, and hence just as much of an inaccuracy as the open bolt.

I hope that makes a little bit of sense.
-Peter

[Miscue]

Well, in rapid fire... closed bolt and open bolt behave exactly the same way... there is no way to distinguish the two. Basically, the main difference is where the ball is at... at rest.

[puckmaster]

I just had this "discussion" with some people at my field. EVERYBODY was against me. The best reason they had was "because i said so"

[P4ULuk]

Cockers never used to have ADB's so cowners had to rely on a better paint to barrel fit or risk losing balls, better paint barrel fit = consistancy = better accuracy.
And thats how the 'lie' begun.

Paul.
:)

[than205]

Originally posted by P4ULuk
Cockers never used to have ADB's so cowners had to rely on a better paint to barrel fit or risk losing balls, better paint barrel fit = consistancy = better accuracy.
And thats how the 'lie' begun.

Paul.
:)


Between this and Miscue's explanation. There it is.

[RRfireblade]

www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148787

Perfect example of stupidity in motion.

Jay.

'course this was after Dasbalddog editted out much of his demencia.

[Alfredo]

Autocockers are basically modified pump guns so what about pump guns?

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Don't you love when people just sit there and argue you with you about something they obviously know nothing about. Then you're just supposed to believe them like it's gospel. Give me a break. Throw a 18" barrel on there and it'll go even farther.

[Evil Bob]

Miscue is on the money here, this is 99% bleed over from real world weapon specs, where for single shot applications, closed bolt systems are more accurate.

Most open bolt firing mechanisms have enough weight when the bolt is thrown forward to move the muzzle of the barrel slightly, which translates into the bullet not hitting the target you were aiming at but hitting where the barrel was currently pointed at the time the round was fired.

When these guns are fired at full auto, it does not matter if they fire from open or closed bolt, as the affected recoil and reciprical action of the bolt will negate any said advantages of one system over the other.

Considering the paintball we are shooting is an imperfect sphere, is not spin stablized, is extremely light, and is fired at relatively low velocities, it will be greately affected by the surrounding air and environmental conditions, such to the point that it completely negates any said advantages of closed vs. open bolt systems, even in a single shot test. Add to this the fact that most people don't normally fire single shot in the first place with semi auto markers, and the argument then becomes completely moot.

-Evil Bob

[Miscue]

Legend has it that, firing 100 balls at high bps will result in tighter shot patterns than slow bps (assuming that the reg keeps up). Reason being, the vacuum created by ball in front sucks in the ball behind it. Kinda like drafting in Nascar.

I have no data to back this up however... so it may not be the case.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Evil Bob


Considering the paintball we are shooting is an imperfect sphere, is not spin stablized, is extremely light, and is fired at relatively low velocities, it will be greately affected by the surrounding air and environmental conditions, such to the point that it completely negates any said advantages of closed vs. open bolt systems, even in a single shot test.

-Evil Bob

Perfect spheres, as well as imperfect spheres, are inaccurate because the shape itself is not very aerodynamic. TK has high speed video that shows PBs zigzagging in the air, regardless of how round it is. Heavier paintballs, like Hellfire, supposedly fare better... but I'm waiting for some test results that verify this and show how much better they are.

[hitech]

This is how I remember it. Way back before the automag there were basically two different types of semi auto paintball guns. There were the closed bolts (one by Glenn Palmer and one by Bud Orr) and open bolt blow back guns. The blow back guns had the bolt attached to the hammer. When you fired the gun the hammer shoved the bolt forward driving the paintball into the barrel and then cracking open a valve to fire the gun. Considering the consistency (or lack thereof) of paintballs the force required to shove the paintball into the barrel would be different. Since the hammer was attached to the bolt the force with which the hammer struck the valve would also be different, causing inconsistent velocities. Also, the moving parts were heavier, causing more precoil/recoil (ie, the gun moved more). At least, that was the prevailing theory at the time.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

mmmm, Hellfire with LVL 10... mmmm

I love it, I bought a case of Hellfire, and the guy looked at my RT like "what??" not a single break when I had that LVL 10 in my old RT.

[Blazestorm]

This is a high quality photo of an Autococker. It has a transparent body, the red blobs are really bunches of WGP knomes, or cocker knomes, they are implanted into every autococker body, they hide in the sightrail and hop onto the bolt and ball to guide it. The green sphere... is a paintball.

Proof that closed bolt guns are more accurate and shoot farther. :D

[Jerhew]

ROFLMAO
i'm sold
guess it's time to drop the rt and pick up something with a closed bolt and gnomes:D

[No sKiLLz]

If you get a matrix, you're gnomes know kung fu, can jump over buildings, and dodge bullets.

<Matrix is closed bolt, but who cares cuz as long as the ball fitz the barrel, it don't matter what goes on in the breech; NYX #16 (humping motion)>

[PsychoBaller]

There is no such thing as accuracy... for the MATRIX has you.... and there really isnt any paintball there to begin with..

~da "there is no spoon" baller

[Leper]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
If you get a matrix, you're gnomes know kung fu, can jump over buildings, and dodge bullets.


Bravo! :D

[jewie27]

Originally posted by AlabamaMan
for the same reason cockers shoot further than mags. It's just the way it is.

Wrong! Markers set to the same velocity shoot the same distance. (except for Flatlines)

It also doesn't matter which is more accurate because either way i'll bunker you at point blank with 10 year old house paint. *Laughing*

[cledford]

Originally posted by Miscue
This is why: It is a known fact that closed bolt firearms are more accurate. This is because they have tighter tolerances.

However, people have misapplied firearm principles to paintball... and thus the myth that closed bolt markers are more accurate and such.

I agree. I believe the myth came out at a time before general access to the internet by lay-people and the involvement of people like Tom directly with the masses. Back in those days if you made a claim and could back it up with half-assed reasoning most people would buy it. Due to the fact that a paintball *gun* looks a lot like a real one people among other things believed:

1. Longer barrels shoot further/ more accurately

2. Rifling put spin on the ball and makes it more accurate.

3. Closed bolt (think bolt action sniper rifle) is more accurate then open bolt (think SMG or a semi auto M16)

To tell you truth many of these silly myths are still floating around today - like a classic I still hear frequently in cocker forums, "well we all know that open/closed bolt doesn't make a difference - but cockers shoot flatter." Or another, more modern classic, "low pressure is more accurate."

-Calvin

[m-98]

Originally posted by jewie27


Wrong! Markers set to the same velocity shoot the same distance. (except for Flatlines)

It also doesn't matter which is more accurate because either way i'll bunker you at point blank with 10 year old house paint. *Laughing*

I believe that he was being sarcastic.

[Jack & Coke]

I'm curious, for those using the firearms analogies, please define:

"open bolt" and "closed bolt"

operation

...and please give examples of which guns are "open bolt" guns.

thanks

[tony3]

Originally posted by jaylock33
Ignorance! The only thing that matters is ball to barrel match.

That statement was almost as ignorant as saying that closed bolt is more accurate

[Ginjiroku]

cockers are consistant and they are accurate, people think it it because they are closed bolt but they're wrong. Any consistant marker with a good paint and barrel match will be accurate.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
I'm curious, for those using the firearms analogies, please define:

"open bolt" and "closed bolt"

operation

...and please give examples of which guns are "open bolt" guns.

thanks

It's typically reserved for full auto fire arms,like the M-60 for example,which is also a gas operated mechanism.

Jay.

[melster]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148787

Perfect example of stupidity in motion.

Jay.

'course this was after Dasbalddog editted out much of his demencia.

LOL...that DasBaldDog got owned. What a fruitcake.

You can tell he's got an inflated opinion of himself...his sig, which is like 200 words long, is pretty much just about bragging about himself.

He doesn't seem to appreciate that there is a diminishing point of returns when it comes to barrel length. After a certain distance, the propellant gas ceases to expand and all the barrel does is increase the decelleration of the projectile.

Gotta love how condescending he comes off too.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


It's typically reserved for full auto fire arms,like the M-60 for example,which is also a gas operated mechanism.

Jay.

Please be more specific in defining "open bolt" operation (regards to firewarms).

Thanks :)

[melster]

Open Bolt:
"A firing system for automatic and semi-automatic firearms where the bolt remains in the rearward position after each cartridge is fired or when firing is stopped. The firing pin is generally in a fixed position in the bolt. This system allows for faster cooling of the action. This system works in a manner exactly opposite to tht of the closed bolt system familiar to most shooters."

An example of an open bolt firearm would be the MAC-10

[RRfireblade]

Pretty similar to paintguns.

Open bolt refers to the position of the bolt priot to firing.

"Typically",an open bolt gun starts with the bolt back and when fired strips the round,chambers it and then fires it and recocks.The firing pin is usually a fixed part of the bolt and the forward action of the bolt acts upon the case igniting the primer.Usually done so for simplicity and more potential cooling of the chamber/barrel.

Where as a "typical" closed bolt gun has the bolt closed while cocked and is fired using a "hammered" movable firing pin,recocks and rechambers the next round ready to fire.

"Basically"

Jay.

Or what the copy and paste guy before me posted.;)

[Jack & Coke]

Thanks :)

[melster]

Originally posted by RRfireblade

Or what the copy and paste guy before me posted.;)

Hey now. I enclosed it in quotes and worked really hard on Google to find it. ;)

As has been mentioned though, it is only significantly more accurate on the first shot if in high rof mode. This is why the H&K MP-5 is so popular with special forces units. If you'll read up on it, its defining feature is it's "first shot accuracy." I believe it is one of only a few (if any) submachine guns that fire from the closed bolt.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by melster


Hey now. I enclosed it in quotes and worked really hard on Google to find it. ;)

I believe it is one of only a few (if any) submachine guns that fire from the closed bolt.

No hard feelings.;)

FYI, keep in mind,they all FIRE from a closed bolt either way.

Jay.

[Jerhew]

geez who dug this fossil up?
:rolleyes: :D
you mean people are still arguing about this? pfft

[trains are bad]

This is the way I always try to debunk the myth:

All markers fire from a closed bolt. The only difference is how long the bolt has been closed when the pb is fired (aired?).


Legend has it that, firing 100 balls at high bps will result in tighter shot patterns than slow bps (assuming that the reg keeps up). Reason being, the vacuum created by ball in front sucks in the ball behind it. Kinda like drafting in Nascar.

Realize, that for the paintballs to be one foot apart, which I think is still too far for drafting too ocur, you'd have to be firing at 300bps.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Jerhew
geez who dug this fossil up?
:rolleyes: :D
you mean people are still arguing about this? pfft

Actually we were talking about full auto firearms for a little while.;)

[melster]

The only reason I can think of why such a high rate of fire would have a tighter grouping is because the rounds are firing so close together that recoil isn't a factor.

That's why the military was developing that caseless ammunition rifle that fired three round bursts at an insane ROF.

[Ginjiroku]

h&k made a prototype called the g-11 http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm
2000 rounds per minute and it has accuracy unlike the 1600 rpm m-11

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


Actually we were talking about full auto firearms for a little while.;)

i just meant the thread in general...
it's like 6 months old...
i didnt even remember replying in it..:cool:

[SpecialBlend2786]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml

i dunno if this was already brought up or not.

[Pand0ra]

Originally posted by melster

That's why the military was developing that caseless ammunition rifle that fired three round bursts at an insane ROF.

That's a metalstorm gun http://www.metalstorm.com. Up to 1,000,000 shots/s in some configurations with multibarrels. :cool: Firing 40mm grenades at 15000rpm is not bad either...

@++

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Jerhew


i just meant the thread in general...
it's like 6 months old...
i didnt even remember replying in it..:cool:

I know,alot of these seem to be popping up lately for some reason.

Me either.;)

[mag-hatter]

Originally posted by jaylock33
Ignorance! The only thing that matters is ball to barrel match.

yeah, like how a pile of crap rental with a good paint/barrel match would be just as good as any high end gun huh?

[melster]

Originally posted by Pand0ra


That's a metalstorm gun http://www.metalstorm.com. Up to 1,000,000 shots/s in some configurations with multibarrels. :cool: Firing 40mm grenades at 15000rpm is not bad either...

@++

Actually, Ginjiroku linked the one I was talking about, the G-11.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as42-e.htm

"when firing the three-round bursts, second and third cartridges are feed and fired as soon as the chamber is ready for it, and third bullet leaves the barrel PRIOR to the moment when the housing becomes to its rearward position. This results in wery high rate of fire with three-shots bursts - ca. 2000 rounds per minute. Also, this results in that the actual recoil affects the rifle AFTER the last bullet in the burst is fired."

It's a russian website, so forgive the typos.

[DeeEight]

Because Bud needed some reason to justify the pricetag on autocockers compared to automags, to get folks to buy his more complicated and glorified pumps at a time when a better and simpler design was available. So like a long line of designers making false claims, bud said it was more accurate and tens of thousand of cocker owners believed him.

In reality of guns in general, a closed-bolt setup keeps outside contaminents out of the innards of the gun when its firing, and for a single-shot application, having the majority of the mass NOT moving forwards to chamber and fire the shot will affect your aim less. But who except pump players in paintball fires only a single shot at once?! No tourney player that's for sure. And most weekend rec-ballers dump paint just as eagerly as they can.

[jewie27]

Who cares if it's open, closed, or halfway open/closed. The only thing that matters is..............

[dansim]

Originally posted by jewie27
Who cares if it's open, closed, or halfway open/closed. The only thing that matters is..............

one more time and i swear imm gonna send an evil monkey to stab you in the brain with a q-tip