The real catch on patents

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK, serious question and if you don't know the answer please don't respond with your interpretation that contains no actual solid facts. Guys like CPhillip and other reputable sources who can also type correctly, I would of course really value your opinion if you're not 100% sure as you're usually on the mark or honest about guesses.

What is the exact patent on the Space Frame for WDP's IR3 and Speed and would it prevent AGD from producing a 90 degree frame similar to it but of course designed differently with a different trigger and such? I notice Matrices have/will have a 90 degree frame available and no uproar about patents has happened and no Brass Eagle tactics of filing lawsuits against any competitor who produces a similar product. Unless AGD or an aftermarket company carved it to be exactly like the Space Frame I thought they would be fine and alot of people want a frame like that, so what is the exact rule/law/patent status?

[Evil Bob]

Usually with "look and feel" patents, as long as one major feature is different, the courts will usually let it slide.

Trigger guards normally don't count as a major feature (subject to the perceptions of the people in the court), they are usually considered secondary or cosmetic features, the major features are usually the physical dimenstion/size, the angle, and overall shape and feel.

If your design is significately different in size, shape, angle, then there shouldn't be any problem with it.

-Evil Bob

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

But that raises the question: is 90 degree style frames able to have patents? Can WDP say that no other company can produce a frame that is primarily a 90 degree angle instead of 45? What if AGD did a 7 degree or 10 degree with a better trigger but not one identical to an Angel trigger, would they be in risk of patents? I like the idea of the Y-grip but never liked that it actually went forward, so would AGD be unable to produce a 90 degree frame for risk of lawsuits?

[Fred]

IIRC, WDP patented the trigger geometry, since a 90 degree frame has existed for years for real firearms, like the Uzi for example.

There is a spaceframe for the Impulse(?) already, and IIRC, WDP's lawsuit was thrown out.

I don't find that style of frame suits me, but the Z and Y style that AGD has made, and is working on, are pretty comfy in my hands.

and... most importantly... AGD doesn't follow WDP's footsteps... :p

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Evolution is what got AGD back in the game because they were a dying company before the Level 10. And sometimes learning from the progress of others is essential. Autococker barrel threads are the most common because they work the best IMO, but others are still around for taste variances. And AGD used WDP threading for the ball detent and feed tube in the ULE body and I know Tom Kaye has positive impressions of Angels. I know I'd like a 90 degree or at least a little less of an incline than the 45 degree frames but what I kept hearing was patents didn't allow it. So when did this issue with WDP's patent being beat happen? Any sites or articles related to it?

[titan aresta]

take a look at the patents on the ratsnest (http://haveblue.org/tech/patents/index.html).
from the looks of it, the space frame itself is not patented (or Have Blue doesn't have that patent), and the only thing that does stand out on the IR3 is that the trigger has a 180 degree curve.
The Z grip (which has its own separate pattent) does seem to say that it's a frame that extends towards the front of the firing device.

soo, my conclusion is that the 90 degree frame is not patented as long as it doesn't look exactly like the frame on the IR3.

(BUT, these patents are quite hard to read, so i might very well be wrong...)

[Lopy-slopy]

There is a guy who's alredy in pre production for making a 90 degree frame for a mag, look in the dealers forum, I think it was in their, but it's doen't look much like an angle frame, more like an intelli, and suposivly tom said it wouldn't void the warenty, so it look's like there will be no prob's.

[luke]

IF I remember correctly, AGD holds the patent on non standard grip frames, ie: I, Y, or Z. I vaguely remember something about Tom licensing these other companies to manufacture these grips.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Yeah, I looked through the patents AGD has, but AGD's patent will be as susceptible to being thrown out as WDP's was. It's almost as bad as, for example, patenting the use of air to power a paintball shooting item: that would eliminate any similar products, and I'm wondering if that's allowed and applies to the grip issue. I definitely think WDP had an innovation with the Spaceframe because it stops the wrist being bent so much when shooting with the tank to your shoulder but doesn't have the catch of being forward and making shooting from the hip or on the ground awkward. With the new ULE trigger or better yet an Angel-like E-trigger I hope AGD re-examines this patent issue, or as the purpose of this thread is, to find out if it is really a legal issue preventing it.

[WickeDKlowN]

Originally posted by luke
IF I remember correctly, AGD holds the patent on non standard grip frames, ie: I, Y, or Z. I vaguely remember something about Tom licensing these other companies to manufacture these grips.
Actually, AGD ofns the patent for any grip frame OVER 90*. And yes, they have licenced it to other companies(i.e. Zenitram).

Not too sure about the patent on teh 90* frames tho. But as long as it isn't an exact copy of WDP's frame, tey should be fine.

There is a guy in the dealers forum that is going to make a 90* mag frame I believe. You may want to check that out.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thats real cool someone is making one, and it may be awesome. I generally try to stick with AGD mods as they really stick to high quality and aftermarket AGD stuff has not done so well. ANS, Smartparts, etc all have produced crappy things, and the Intelliframe is way better than the Benchmark because AGD sticks to quality and knows their stuff best. So if AGD makes it, then I'll buy it. Maybe they'll follow in this guy's footsteps, and hopefully renovate the trigger to, a little more stylish. Just my 2 cents, and I guess no patent issues would exist with that. Cool!

[nippinout]

The patent refers to the z-grips use for paintball, but it clearly states it's purpose is for aiding in accuracy in firearms and other shooting platforms.

[SIGSays]

lol hair dryers...

[theraidenproject]

http://www.uwec.edu/tltdc/equipment/images/blohorn.jpg for better stability when shooting your mouth off