ULE Trigger Upgrade

[NASurfer]

does anyone know if AGD plans on selling a kit to up the reactiveness in the ule trigger? Alot of us dont play tournament paintball, and want the most insane ROF possible (may as well take full advantage of the X Valve). I know Tom was talking about the possibility of selling the kit, but i dident see anything about it in his last ULE trigger post.

[Evil Bob]

You can up the reactivity by upping the input pressure. You want super reactive, push 1k into the valve, you'll have all the reactivity you want without spending a dime.

-Evil Bob

[NASurfer]

i meant for the ULE trigger, i read that reactivity gets turned down with it.

[Xerces]

you could just not buy the ule trigger if you dont want to lose any rectiveness(assuming what you read was correct)

[Lopy-slopy]

I realy don't know what your asking, if you want more reactivity just do like evil bob said and up the pressure.

I don't know what the ULE trigger has to do with your quesion. if you want more reactivity with the ule trigger just do the same, up the pressure. :confused:

[luke]

The ULE Trigger does not increase the reactiveness of the X-Valve, it actually decreases it. The purpose of the kit is to lighten the trigger pull by 2/3's. And yes they still have plans to market it.

[NASurfer]

I remember Tom saying that reactiveness will go down with the ULE trigger. I also remember him floating the idea that they would sell a kit as an option with the ule trigger that would up the reactivity (the high reactivity combined with the ule trigger wouldent be tournament legal though). I was wondering if they were still going to go through with the kit though cause i really dont play tournaments anyway.

[luke]

Last I heard they still had plans to go ahead with the kit, but they recommend it only be used with valves that have two O-ring's in the bottom of the on/off assembly.



floating the idea that they would sell a kit as an option with the ule trigger that would up the reactivity I don't know about this.....

[TheJester]

guys guys guys, I don't think you're answering his questions. this is what he's (may i call you a he?) referings too


A new issue has become apparent with the lightweight trigger. With lowered reactivity, it is much easier to short stroke the trigger and "chuff" a shot...If we put more reactivity back in we can solve the problem but the gun will be illegal in many tournaments.

and because of this statement i'm not sure if turning up the pressure will increase reactivity of the ULE trigger, but who knows.

Because the trigger is so light, turning down the pressure doesn't help.


Much like the LvL10 you will have to make some adjustments to tune it in. These adjustments involve getting the on/off pin length right. With our old setup you had to change on/off pins to get the right length, with the ULE Trigger you add shims to do the same thing.

How ever, in 1 thread people asked for it to be adjustable to adjust the reactivity, or sell 2 different kits. and it seems as though it's an adjustable kit. now this says nothing about reactivity, but if you shorten your on/off pin you will get in creased reactivity, so it seems to me that you can adjust it to the lightness and reactivity (is reactivity even a word? :confused: ) to what your prefences.

NASurfer-does that help any? i'm only guessing, but they're educated guesses at least

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Jester, I think your guess it about as close as anyone beside AGD insiders can give, and you know Tom would kill them if they gave away the inner workings of the trigger before he's ready.

The shims thing along with using the on/off pin and sear gives me a thought though: what if the shims adjust the contact point where the trigger goes from the point of sealing and not sealing the airflow at the top of the on/off? in other words, something up around where the two orings are that is adjustable so it's basically like adjusting the pin length by filing the pin but not so risky since it's reversible? And since the contact point is minimal it probably means the pin isn't pushed hard by the air flow like it does on current on/offs when it seals the airflow, so there is the lighter pull since you're not having to push the pin but also the reason why reactivity doesn't exist as much. Just thoughts, no proof at all as I haven't even fired the thing so no flaming and definitely don't assume I'm right.

[TheJester]

well you bring up a good point, but as i said, it's just a guess. i have no clue how this shim thing will work. you're obviously adjusting the on/off lengths to get a it right, cause it was said you used to have to choose the right pin, not adjust the pin. but where these shims go, who knows. it seems to me if they at the bottom (or is it top...either way i'm gonna call it the bottom, but down by o-rings) things wouldn't seal properly due to the wafer thin shims (prolly only .010 of and in thick like the lvl 10 shims). in the lvl 10 bolt, the shims just adjust how far out the power tube tip sticks out, the o-ring on the tip does the sealing, but because they're not a single unit i don't think they could seal (not to mention they would be moving, and moving parts don't always like to stay perfectly stacked).

the other logical placement would be at the top of the pin, the side that contacts the sear. but if that is so, they they're not contained, leaving the possibility of them being flopped around, what's to prevent them from just flying down off the pin when the pin resets the sear?

i obviously didn't design this, so i have no clue. personaly i don't even see why it decreases the reactivity. my only best guess on why that is, is the design of the pin. one of the reasons the retro kicks back is the large head on the pin (i won't bother to got into the dynamics that makes that so, but it is click here (http://store.airgun.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=17&Product_ID=132&CATID=6) , and it will tell you the same thing). so if they went to pin more like the pins in the classic, it would have reduced reactivity when compared to a non-ULE retro, but would still have more reactivity when compared to a classic valve (due to the pin being exposed to un regulated pressure)

sorry NASurfer, didn't mean to hijack your thread some what

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I really doubt they'd be down at the entrance by wear the sear touches it, as you're right they would slide or risk damage. My guess is they'd be somewhere in the middle or just before the top. And probably have to do with the starting position of the on/off so that a full pull is just enough to seal it but no extra. And that by adding more shims sets the pin deeper into the orings or seals it more so when the air pushes it, it'll have more of the "cork effect" that makes the reactivity. I don't know, I am dying to know more about it but Tom's done a good job keeping it quiet, I'm surprised no info from the machine shop building them has leaked, some employee or something. And I am still not positive we'll even be keeping the two orings. I think that is more about just knowing the size of the on/off space is the right one for this mod, Tom never said anything about keeping the orings in there, and if it was that simple I'm sure they would have just got replacement orings to send and save the whole "drilling" issue with older valves.

Anyways, that's my general thoughts about how it MAY work and why the reactivity won't be there.

[TheJester]

o-rings will prolly definently be replaced, given that the new pin is extreamly thin. interesting theory on the cork effect, it took me a little while, and a few times reading it to make sense of it (as i was simulating the way a mag fires w/ my hands) and it does make sense. but what i'm wondering, is due to the size of the pin, the pin itself will have a lower mass, same force against a lower mass = greater force, meaning the small pin in itself would have great reactivity. but that prolly goes back to the head design on why the oppisite it true, to say the least. o-ring config (as you stated), and shim config may also play a large roll in this.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Yeah, without knowing specifically what stays (the orings) and whether it turns the air on and off identical to how the current on/off does, it's hard to say. Thinner on/off pin has me puzzled because if the smaller size risks damage, Tom is making it thinner for a reason. He wouldn't have made it more fragile for no benefit, he's not Brass Eagle (cough cough, Revi shells and lid junk, cough cough). So it has something to do with it and the question is whether it seals the air like it currently does or if it perhaps uses some form of leverage to seal it.

Two physics situations to bring up. Work=force*distance and the concept of torque. Try turning a screw so it digs into wood by hand, it's really tough. Use a wrench with an extremely long handle (go extreme with 3 feet) and it requires barely any force BUT it takes a much larger distance to travel, for example if it took the circular equivalent of three feet of movement by turning it by hand and required eight pounds of pressure, it would probably be 24 feet distance to turn it with the wrench but be 1 pound of pressure. 8*3=24*1. No matter what, the same sear is being used unless he changed that so the same push is being applied to the on/off, and I assume the trigger pull is staying the same length. So something in the on/off is either applying these laws of physics and coverting your 1 inch of pull to the equivalent of about 3 inches, thereby requiring one-third the weight(1mm*3lb=3mm*1lb) but more distance which increases the chance of shortstroking aka CHUFF in the process... or it's a whole new type of on/off arrangement where the pin does something differently but the fact chuffing, or not allowing enough recharge, can be caused by not releasing the trigger fully doesn't match up with the idea that the shims allow you to just barely seal the on/off, because then even the lightest release would allow full flow and recharge.

Following me? :D

[nerobro]

I think the shimming will be like the LX. Becuase there is so little force avaialble you'll need to adjust he size of the o-rings that seal the on/off to get the trigger to even work. Tom mentioned that it may not work i classics becuase there is no retro kick to get the pin unstuck. Sickction is a nasty mother ;-)

As for needing to have a 2 o-ring top. it wuold seem he's changint ehte diameter of the on/off top so he'll needto use different "pack" of o-rings at the top to accomdiate the different diameter. Like most mags now wehave a small o-ring sitting in a larger one. With two different o-rings, or maybe more o-rings, or maybe a shim betwee the outer and inner o-ring.

I can't be sure of the actuall configuration ;-) (remember I've only felt it) So.. we'll see in 30 days.