Why Was AGD NOT at the Chicago PSP???

[damageinc54]

Would AGD like to explain to us why they were not at the Chicago PSP event? Was it to far of a drive? The venue was much closer to AGD than the Tweeter Center where the NPPL was held. One of my team mates just bought an Emag. He asks me if AGD will be at the PSP selling ULE bodies, I said hell ya they will be, no way they would not be at a major tournament right in their back yard. Looks like I was wrong. I dont know who is in charge of marketing at AGD but they missed a great opportunity to show off their new products and maybe even sell some!?!?! I am sorry but you guys dropped the ball on this one. Dye, Smart Parts, Shocktech, JT, and Worr Games were there with their huge trailers and booths. Even Custom Products had a trailer there!!! AGD did not even have a 10x10 EzUP with one wooden table. I am very disappointed.

[nerobro]

I'ts a very good question. The agd events schedule says they SHOULD have been there... I wonder what happened.

[Frank (the spank)]

I don't know... but I have my best man on the case.

http://www.tvguide.com/tv/televisionary/images/010123tvask1.jpg

Believe it or not, he's walking on air.

:D

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

I have to say this. AGD has horrible marketing. They couldn't sell a big mac to an ethopian. If you think about it, if AGD would have their stuff ready on time, not have huge waiting list (supply and demand, soon the demand for xmags will be gone because no one can get one!), actually be at most/all major event, and get a few magazine ads, they mags would sell like hotcakes. Not that they don't sell already, but they would sell much better. Right now would be the perfect time to work on marketing skills with all the new products coming out. Most people outside of AO have no idea about ULE parts, Y grips, ULE trigger or Xvalves. If Dye or WDP came out with these parts, everyone and their momma would buy. There's no use making a great product if you can't sell it. Sure, ads in magazines do cost alot, but they will eventually pay for themselves if you get more customers.

[cphilip]

I think it was partly to do with Tom going on his annual Vacation. It was announced they would not be going a few weeks ago. I think ,when that Schedule was first made up long ago, Tom had thought he was going to skip his annual trip so he planned on being there. But somewhere along the line it the Vacation trip was back on.

Not sure but thats what I think it was anyway.

[FalconGuy016]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
. Most people outside of AO have no idea about ULE parts, Y grips, ULE trigger or Xvalves. If Dye or WDP came out with these parts, everyone and their momma would buy.

Yes, no one has any idea. I seem to know everythign about every other company and all their products, even though I have NO INTENTION of buying their guns and parts

[Muzikman]

Phil,
Problem with that theory is that even on the schedule Tom said he would not be there and that he would be Dino hunting. I just think someone forgot about the event:)

[cphilip]

My understanding was it was a consious decision not to go. Because they said they were not going BEFORE it even came up to time. And I am not certain his dates for Dino hunting didn't change. In Fact I do know a few months back that was even cancelled. And then suddenly it was back on. So... Your guess is as good as mine.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Sorry, I have to agree. Big mistake. All this new stuff and not one single AGD employee at the booth showing all the new stuff. I know Tom is boss but don't you have at least one other Marketing employee there? They need to be yelled at big time, I mean it was Chicago, come on!!!! Hometown for you, no excuses! Last year was a revolution for you, the XMag, Lvl 10, and No Rise. This year you dropped the ball.

With the Y-grip coming out it would have been a perfect chance for people to handle it and see if they like it and want to order it, and the ULE trigger to see if they will chuff. So AGD screwed themselves over and shouldn't complain if sales are slow on these two items and that it's only AO people buying them (which has happened for example with the roller trigger), because this would have been the way to sell more and they just let it slip by. Notice how everyone talked about the new NY Extreme Matrix and how many sold there? And the 2003 Shocker which could easily crush the XMag in sales (same look and all)? And you know the Angel Speed sold like mad and was shown alot.

Getting products out there sells them, because I got to play with a Matrix this weekend I am definitely looking to sell my Mag and switch to them. It ripped. I saw a 2003 Angel LCD and a Viking too and have positive impressions of them now and would probably look at buying one of them before and XMag even though I am a Mag user now and like my gun. I didn't see any other Mags besides my own at that field and that's what gets sales. Exposure and giving people the chance to see them in action and try them which is the idea of trade shows.

Step up guys, or just accept why it's only AO members buying your stuff.

[GT]

no offense guys but Tom aint the only guy that works for AGD>

jb

[Muzikman]

Phil,
If you take a look at the AGD schedule that Tom pasted back at the beginning of the year you will see that they should have been there and that Tom was not going to be around.

PSP Chicago June 21st (tk hunting fossils)

So again, someone dropped the ball. Not that I was there or anything, but it does shock me that a major event so close to home should not be missed. Then again, IAO is just around the corner and that is where all the "new" products are introduced anyway.

[hitech]

To those of you claiming that AGD made a bad marketing decision, do you know anything about marketing? You may think something is obviously a good idea when in fact it is not.

To those who are claiming certain products sold well, do you actually know how many sold? Or are you guessing? The actual numbers might surprise you.

There is a lot more to deciding what event to attend. I know, I have helped make that decision (different industry). First of all, the event itself costs big dollars. You won't make anywhere near enough in sales to justify it. So, what you have to decide is how much is this particular event worth exposure wise? That is a very hard question to answer. Tom has traditionally debuted new products at IAO. I'm sure he believes it is worth more in exposure. Never having been to either I can't comment. However, all that said, I would have probably at least sent someone with a small booth. ;)

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

HiTech, I actually do understand marketing and business, I majored in both. But I do understand the validity of your claims based on your experience as well as understand the costs. However, some of the key costs of such an event is travel, lodging, etc. and because it's AGD hometown those would have been minimal. Event fees are a worthwhile expense. And you're telling me every player who attended the Chicago event is going to attend the IAO? The teams and promoters will, but they're sponsored, they're not the people being sold to. I bet people pick one event or the other to be live spectators for, and in cases of events in different locations no more than 10% of the people who attended Chicago will attend the IAO and vice versa. So that 90% in Chicago that won't be at IAO are lost marketing opportunities. Would all buy Mag items? Of course not. Would they at least see them and remember something about them? YES!

And it is not always just about sales. The NY Extreme Matrix sold out the seven or so they had according to Paintball.com (or Force of Nature, one of those two key sites) and had three or so on backorder. BUT more importantly it gained serious exposure that made it the talk of fields this weekend. I kept hearing about it the day I played. And that makes a company push ahead. I also bet they'll have those backorders and more in sometime this millenium, unlike AGD and the XMag. It's about getting the name AGD out there, a stupid banner would have at least shown that they represented. Instead they can change their slogan to "AGD: the company that can't even afford to show up to their hometown event." Great rep. I bet even those cheapskates Brass Eagle showed in some fashion. And they did it because showing at all events builds brand recognition and boosts sales. And look what effect AGD not showing and not making a clear announcement they are not showing at all had on current customers. A negative one. (TK fossil hunting) is a pathetic way of saying they're not showing, is Tom the only employee of AGD? NO!

The market is a competition that is growing steadily, and if AGD doesn't want to take an aggressive stance and expect their products to do all the work, all the ULE items in the world won't stop it from going right back to the 3rd tier market status it had a couple years back.

[hitech]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
And it is not always just about sales...more importantly it gained serious exposure that made it the talk of fields this weekend.

That is exactly what I was talking about. I cannot personally comment on the particular event. I assume AGD did not think it was worth it. Maybe they are wrong. ;)



Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
(TK fossil hunting) is a pathetic way of saying they're not showing, is Tom the only employee of AGD? NO!

I doubt this is the reason. Maybe why TK did not attend, but I doubt that is why no one attended (well, not directly anyway).


Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
The market is a competition that is growing steadily, and if AGD doesn't want to take an aggressive stance and expect their products to do all the work, all the ULE items in the world won't stop it from going right back to the 3rd tier market status it had a couple years back.

Generally, AGD has let their products speak for themselves. I personally think that was fine ten years ago, but doesn't work today. Then again, no one in their right mind would hire me as a marketing consultant! ;) Tom does understand marketing. He understands the budget constraints AGD operates under. It's very hard to really know what is best without that information. Then again, it seems to me someone should have been there. However, to play devil's advocate, maybe they didn't want to have a booth unless it was their best. The old if you can't do it well, don't do it. Which is worse, not showing up or having a "bad" showing? ;)

Still, I think someone should have at least been on hand to do technical support.

[magman007]

Listen, added on from hitech, the NPPL is much "bigger" and has been promoted much better than PSP, that is probabally why i think tom skipped PSP and went to NPPL. The Nppl is also "cleaner" in my ideas, with the judging, and it is much more professionally run.


PLus i dont think i would want to be associated with psp, i feel they are all a bunch of jackasses

[Spaceman613]

I saw more people and teams attend the PSP event. maybe I went to nppl on the wrong day (saturday).

I was very dissapointed they werent there. but so were other vendors. Like KAPP?

I do agree that missing an event this close to home is odd, but Im sure they have thier reasons.

[damageinc54]

Originally posted by hitech
Still, I think someone should have at least been on hand to do technical support.

I dont think they really needed anybody there for tech support since for the most part NOBODY was using their equipment!!!! The only team using their products was the AGD sponsored teams and a few other guys. Plenty of Timmys, Cockers, Angels, Impulses, and Matrix's though. AGD is never going to compete with any of these companies unless they get off their butts and do something. They had a tiny little booth at the NPPL but at least they were there. The PSP event was much bigger than the NPPL and all the best teams were on hand. I was there with my team mates all weekend and there were crowds of players there all day. I have had guys ask me at every event I attend about my ULE body on my Emag. Most of them have never heard of it and have no idea where to buy it. The comment I hear most is "WOW AGD made that for the mag!!! Where can I get one" It disappoints me that fossil hunting seems more important to Tom than making sure he has some kind of exposer at one of the biggest local events in Chicago. I would have ran the damn booth for AGD if they could not get anybody else to do it. I always hear how AGD likes to rip Smart Parts. I even got to hear all of Toms little comments about them at the Super Tour at AGD. Well I was able to walk up to the Smart Parts trailer, have Adam Gardner hand me a 2003 Shocker and explain all if it's features. He seemed really proud of his product. Where was Tom or at least some AGD employee to gloat about the X-Mag? Tom, I love my Emag, but I am disappointed about the lack of promotion of it.

[cphilip]

Some AGD employees were there. But they did not have a booth. Some other manufacturers did not either.

Tom did have his vacation scheduled and eventualy did go on that vacation.

Thats all I know.

[Gecko]

going to the tournament is not free, PSP charges you to set up a booth. Hell as far as i know they would have charged agd to simply have a place to tech guns. I think agd made a choice to wait for IAO instead of doing a half *** job at chicago.

[CFD323]

Listen, added on from hitech, the NPPL is much "bigger" and has been promoted much better than PSP, that is probabally why i think tom skipped PSP and went to NPPL. The Nppl is also "cleaner" in my ideas, with the judging, and it is much more professionally run.

I attended both events and I have to say by far the PSP event was much better. The only thing that NPPL did better was to have the schedule available online so you always knew who was playing where and when. Maybe PSP had the same thing but I couldn't find it online. (PSP had a schedule for 5 and 10 man for the first day or 2 but not for later on and not for X-ball.)

Here's my review of each :

NPPL Good :
-had a schedule of teams/games each day

NPPL Bad :
-too crowded due to fields and stands being cramped together,
-only 2 really top notch pro teams in Naughty Dogs & Dynasty (others may play good but let's not kid ourselves, the Dogs and Dynasty are it),
-wasn't impressed with the selection of vendors (maybe cuz I don't buy much from the vendors that were there.),
-not very spectator friendly



PSP Good :
-Field and vendors laid out very well. All the X-ball fields were together so it was easy to switch to each field during play,
-X-ball is awesome and the future of tournament paintball. If anything ever gets paintball on tv, it will be X-ball,
-Crowds seemed to be into the X-ball,
-Basically all the pro teams are in the PSP (be it NXL or Division I) which provides much better competition,
-Much better selection of vendors (Evil, DYE, JT, Shocktech, Smart Parts, WDP, Diablo, WGP and many others),
-reffing for NXL was great I thought plus penalties added to the strategy of the game too,
-beer sales,
-free beer for the Miller Lite sponsored party after games on Saturday.


PSP Bad :
-some questionable reffing during the Dogs/Strange games,
-never saw any schedule other than the first 2 days,
-didn't hear about the free Miller Lite after game party until Sunday. It was held on Saturday evening.



I thought PSP had bigger crowds than the NPPL. And let's face it, X-ball is the future of paintball. It's 10 times more exciting than traditional 10-man and the it allows the crowds to get into the games. I definitely found myself being drawn into the excitement of the X-ball games whereas 10-man it's not like that. Not to mention that the X-ball is fast ! If paintball gets on tv someday, it will be X-ball that gets it there. It's definitely more exciting for the non-playing spectator crowd. I will go to both tournaments next year too but if I had to pick one or the other, it would definitely be PSP. I'm looking forward to going to the PSP in Orlando in October.

X-BALL ROCKS !!!!!

GO CHICAGO AFTERSHOCK !!!!!!!

[Brett23]

Hmmm went from AGD missing an event to which is better the PSP or Nppl. Any ways back to the origanl subject. I also agree that AGD dropped the ball on this one. My local shop just got in 8 black ULE bodies and somewhere around 80 LVL 10's. They sold out of the ULE bodies in one day, and only have 10 LX's left, and this was from an area that doesnt even like mags. The chances of selling alot of stuff in 2 days just went out the window for AGD. Maybe they are trying to get stock up for the IAO. Who knows. The advertisments are so far and in between the last time I saw an AGD add in a magazine was when RT pro came out. I dont pretend to understand business but if yah want your stuff to sell I would think you would want to have as many ppl be aware of it as possible. The only thing I've ever seen on the Emag was a review in APG mag. Now I know with the way that the AGD Kids are ripping though these tourneys that the Xmag is getting some reconition. Thats still not enough. Did the timmy get big from one team destroying everyone. Nope it was from advertisment and team after team having them. Thats what the kiddies see. So thats what the kiddies want. Ule the emag, takes some pictures, pay some space in a magazine or 2 and lets get the ball rolling.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

I'm too lazy to go and quote this but someone said that a boot and advertizing is not cheap. Well, I know it's not cheap, but it works to get sales, and the more sales you make, the more money you make. If you can get everyone to know about your new product, it may not sell right away, but I guarentee you it will sell more then not advertizing. Now, you have something great such as the ULE bodies, and they will probably go so fast, they'll pay for themselves in no time. I think AGD needs to take out a loan, up the size of the company, advertize, and produce more guns. You can have quantity and quality at the same time you know, and if you do, your product will sell. Now, this may be hard to believe, but most people at my field have no idea what an xmag is, but if you show them an angel, or matrix, or impulse, they know what it is. Part of it may be because teams use them, but the biggest part is advertizements! Spyders aren't great guns, but they sell from magazine ads! If a beignner picks up a paintball magazine for the first time, sees AGDs name, then they may just develop a liking for the product(s) and want to buy! Part of making a good product is marketing my friends, and if you don't market well, then you have ultimately failed. Sure, the product is good, but who cares if no one knows what it is? There is no excuse not to be at a LOCAL EVENT. None at all. They should have been at the PSP event and the NPPL event. Major tourneys like that is the way to get your product out, becuase people can actually see the product in person, and use it.

[HOMOCIDAL2]

I'll bet none of you give up your vacation. Maybe Mr. Kaye gets tired of paintball for a couple of weeks a year, and wants to look at fossils. Thats his business. As far as his products go, ever since I bought my first mag ten years ago, I'll always use them. No matter what anybody thinks, because I like them. I don't care if he ever advertises anywhere as long as the quality stays the same. If 500,000 people don't know where to buy AGD stuff, I do. So let people go on vacation. It's nice to get away from work for a while.

[shartley]

Originally posted by HOMOCIDAL2
I'll bet none of you give up your vacation. Maybe Mr. Kaye gets tired of paintball for a couple of weeks a year, and wants to look at fossils. Thats his business. As far as his products go, ever since I bought my first mag ten years ago, I'll always use them. No matter what anybody thinks, because I like them. I don't care if he ever advertises anywhere as long as the quality stays the same. If 500,000 people don't know where to buy AGD stuff, I do. So let people go on vacation. It's nice to get away from work for a while.
Are you telling me you think Tom is the only one at AGD? Are you saying that you think Tom it is the only one capable of setting up a booth at an event?

And YES, I have given up vacations and vacation time for WORK. And I bet I will do it again.

I also think your views on advertising are VERY short sighted to say the least and show a gross lack of business experience and knowledge.

This is not an issue about Tom going on vacation………..

[JAM]

I agree Shartley, AGD has never been into "real" advertising, but now they need to really get into it and take everychance to show the new stuff they're coming out with. many many of the negatives of the older mags have been addressed and fixed and the public needs to be able to see this.

[AGD]

Thanks guys....thanks a lot...

After personally traveling to over a dozen events almost every weekend for months, we don't go to ONE event and you drag me over the rocks. Go ahead pick up the bat and hit me in the head again... I am getting used to it and maybe soon I will learn to like it and be able to relax on a vacation.


Still reading the forums from Wyoming,

AGD

[shartley]

Originally posted by AGD
Thanks guys....thanks a lot...

After personally traveling to over a dozen events almost every weekend for months, we don't go to ONE event and you drag me over the rocks. Go ahead pick up the bat and hit me in the head again... I am getting used to it and maybe soon I will learn to like it and be able to relax on a vacation.


Still reading the forums from Wyoming,

AGD
Tom,
At least for some of us, this is not about dragging you over the rocks. And it is not about your vacation. Heck, I think you deserve one.

In fact, my post in particular only addressed what one member posted.

If you didn’t have any representation at that event for financial reasons, time constraint reasons, staffing reasons, or whatever, fine….. that is expected, and can even be understood. And I am sure saying so would alleviate any concerns folks have.

The fact that folks are concerned and wanted to see AGD represented at the event is a compliment in itself. It shows that folks care. I think this issue is a “the glass is half empty” or “half full” situation………… and you just chose to see it as a “glass empty” one. ;)

Relax…. Enjoy your vacation. Find some nice fossils. And don’t forget to post pictures… we love pictures! :D

[jaylock33]

Alot of this sounds like it's ripping AGD for not going and showing new products like the X-mag, the ULE trigger and the Y frame. I do think that AGD should have been there in some way or another. However it seems like every other week someone on these boards tears into AGD about the X-mags not being available. Does AGD really need to go out there and tell even more people about a product that they currently can't keep in stock so they can get blasted by even more people.

Onto the ULE trigger the point of a beta test as I understand it to be is for a limit number of people who have an idea of what their doing to test the product and report flaws to the manufacturer. So once again a whole lot of people knowing about products they can't get their hands on doesn't strike me as a good idea especially when the product ism't fully tested.

As for the Y frame if one was available to be shown it should have been there along with the E-mag, the ULE Body and the Level X. So basically yes they should have been there but only with certain products.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Sorry if you're insulted Tom but if people are annoyed enough to post about it then it's a key issue and the posting is more along the lines of Tough Love than insults and lack of gratitude. The whole reason most of us are taking the time to post like this is because we want to see your company succeed but mistakes like missing a key event like this and not getting the products out there is what is hurting you and there really should be minimal excuses for missing this huge event. We're not posting all over other sites, we're bringing it straight to you because we know you listen and read this. We're doing it to help bring this concern to your attention and help you out.

And definitely enjoy a break! You have worked hard these last couple months, but as some have posted we assume you have hired some qualified individuals other than yourself at Airgun Designs who know how to run a booth and that the company doesn't fall apart when you're away. I know your employees, they definitely know their stuff and work well with customers. Don't take the world on your shoulders, let them take a more proactive role so you don't have to be working during your vacation like this!

We respect you Tom, this is definitely not about saying AGD is bad, it's about helping you become stronger. And definitely don't take it personally, it's business.

[AGD]

Well the story is that both tournaments (PSP/NPPL) are a LOT more expensive than the PSP used to be. Its 2k cash for the both and SOMETHING like 3-4k in product additional. We have to shut down the sales and the tech department for days and we end up with literally hundreds of pissed off customers. We get behind on gun repairs and have a backlog of messages to cach up on.

The fact is that all of the people at the pro tournaments still think we suck or look at us as a rec gun. No amount of show and tell is going to change their minds. As an example look at Kingman, Bad Company is doing pretty good and they invested in a huge trailer. Not changing anyones mind about Spyders are we?

The sales numbers at the pro events don't justify the investment. As an example we sold more at the AO Megameet with 35 people than we did at Super 7. The size of the booth doesnt matter in the least, the cost is still the same.

We did the S7 thinking all the Chicago people would go to that one considering the success of the other NPPL events. There is a tournament war on right now and we can't afford to go to them all so don't expect us too. That's the way it is. Dye and Smart Parts are not showing up at NPPL events and WDP is a no show at PSP, any comments?

AGD

[Dayspring]

I think you guys have your answer now.

Go dig some bones up Tom. I want to see pics of them at IAO. :D

[jaylock33]

Tom,
Most of us, myself included have a huge amount of respect for you. Your vacation is well deserved so enjoy the fossils. Thanks for the insight as to the reasons why you didn't go. Hind sight is 20/20 and given the new information I apoligize for my misinformed statements made earlier. It's tough on us and even more so on You I'm sure knowing that AGD makes a great product but people still have huge misconceptions. Unfortunately for you most of us, once again myself included have yet to realize that everything that you do or don't do have very sound reasons. Once again sorry about the abuse.

[shartley]

Originally posted by AGD
Well the story is that both tournaments (PSP/NPPL) are a LOT more expensive than the PSP used to be. Its 2k cash for the both and SOMETHING like 3-4k in product additional. We have to shut down the sales and the tech department for days and we end up with literally hundreds of pissed off customers. We get behind on gun repairs and have a backlog of messages to cach up on.

The fact is that all of the people at the pro tournaments still think we suck or look at us as a rec gun. No amount of show and tell is going to change their minds. As an example look at Kingman, Bad Company is doing pretty good and they invested in a huge trailer. Not changing anyones mind about Spyders are we?

The sales numbers at the pro events don't justify the investment. As an example we sold more at the AO Megameet with 35 people than we did at Super 7. The size of the booth doesnt matter in the least, the cost is still the same.

We did the S7 thinking all the Chicago people would go to that one considering the success of the other NPPL events. There is a tournament war on right now and we can't afford to go to them all so don't expect us too. That's the way it is. Dye and Smart Parts are not showing up at NPPL events and WDP is a no show at PSP, any comments?

AGD
Now THAT is an answer. ;)

I can understand your reasoning. And honestly, if that is why you were not there I have no problems with it (like it matters.. LOL).

As for Dye, Smart Parts and WDP…. Do you really want folks to comment on them? I think if folks had concerns that those companies were not at events, they would contact the actual companies….. much like they did here on AO. This is one of the ways to contact AGD about AGD stuff.

Now in general.. to no one in particular…..

What I find distressing, is that this forum was developed for free flow of thoughts between AGD and its customers, and its customers with each other….. but when folks show concern about anything, it is labeled “bashing”. When members think there is a problem and feel the need to talk about it, folks say they are “bashing”.

Is this just a massive Fan Club and Zealot gathering, designed only to follow blindly and sing the praises of AGD… no matter what… or is it AO? I thought AO was better than that.

As for advertising and being at events… it is NOT just about selling your latest product. Heck, do they still have RT Pros? How about E-Mags? What markers ARE in stock and available to the public either at AGD or at Paintball Stores? Why can’t THOSE be pushed as well? Are they BAD products? Why does it always have to be the “latest” thing that gets attention?

Also advertising and being at events are about showing your face (or that of the company). It lets folks know you ARE still around even if you DON’T have a new product to sell, or that is in stock for sale.

Can folks remember a few years back when every time you turned around folks (general paintball public) though AGD was either not in business any more, or were going out of business? What about all the misconceptions floating around? AGD and its supporters have made great strides to take care of this problem… but it does not mean it is taken care of.

Now… with all this in mind, it is up to each company to determine whether the costs associated with each method of advertising is worth the potential sales down the road. I happen to think that if a company goes to events TO make a sale, they are doing so for the wrong reason. Yes, it is nice to be able to gain instant sales at these events, but I think the exposure to the public is the more important thing. But again, it is up to each company to determine what is best for them….. sometimes they do the right thing, sometimes they don’t… such is life.

But I think it is a good thing that folks can talk about it, and see things from all angles. THEN folks can truly determine whether they agree with a decision that was made, or not. And Tom's last post went a long way to helping folks make that determination..........

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thank you for the response, laying out key points like that does make a good case. I will always go with the example that WDP didn't get where they were from an untouchable product (Angels definitely got flaws) and that it was exposure and advertising that changed people's opinions of them, but with the costs and benefits compared I do see the point of skipping this event. Hopefully some way will come across to change people's minds about the Mag.

Have fun on vacation Tom, hope you saw our side and understand that we're not doing this to insult you. I don't know a single paintball product employee that puts more effort in working with their customers than you do and most of us do appreciate it. Hopefully knowing that brightens your day a bit.

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD
Its 2k cash for the both and SOMETHING like 3-4k in product additional.

AGD

Holy POOOOO!!!! 2g's for a dam both?


There is a tournament war on right now

I am not a big tourny player and I can see that. Of which I dont think that is all that great for Pro paintball, if there is such a thing.

jb

[Spaceman613]

WDP was at both NPPL and PSP.. (wdp was sitting right next to Ted and Shane at Air America)

and YES my opinion of some spyders have changed. Or maybe I just remembered that there was player behind the gun ;)



But I do agree on the being closed for a couple days. they get mad when ya go to tourneys and events, and they get mad if ya dont. Of course, you could just hire me to go to the events and promote for you (kidding).

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

And also, thank you Shartley for making that point: bashing would be doing all this to make AGD look bad, to express we think the company is bad, or other posting for purely negative reasons. Too many people do see this site as a "see how brown my nose can get complimenting AGD" forum when really it is a place to discuss news, ideas, problems, and to see both sides of a story. We are addressing something that concerned us and seeing both sides. That's not bashing. Spyders totally suck and Brass Eagle ruin quality products like Revi's. That's bashing (and true). Sorry, had to get that one in there and it technically applies to the sub-topic of bashing so don't flame me. :D You got to admit that was funny too. Anyways, so those people who think this forum is all about sucking up, think again, to those thinking we're saying we shouldn't do business with AGD anymore, think again. We just want to express a concern and discuss it.

[Meph]

Any comments? Sure.

In all I wish people would get off your back. But I'm not going to get into that. It's the internet as we all know, everybody has a right to their opinion. Not everybody might agree, but being this is AO they're entitled to it.

But what I WILL get into is how due to you being at EMR last month and talking to people, showing more interest into the rec community, and displaying that prototype ULE trigger. Because of that I did buy a couple more mag accessories and am going to travel down to the IAO in hopes of getting one of those ULE triggers. Well, and to write. But the ULE especially.

You didn't have a booth there or anything, you were just yourself. And I support companies that support more of the rec/scenario groups of people. Which is why I won't own an Impulse, Angel, or Timmy. Yet I do own 6 Tippmanns, too many pumps, and of course my Automag (X-valve, ULE body, I-frame, maybe ULE trigger if it comes out at IAO).

Well, that and at the store I work at have talked about 4 kids into buying mags, so helping the sales there as well as I can.

Basically put, do business as you see fit Tom. You have a budget, stick to it. Don't do anything that won't in turn bring that revenue back. It'd be like Armotech showing up at Chicago.... who the hell would buy a WG-65 there? That'd be a waste of their time and money since they wouldn't get it back in sales or even just exposure.

[Spaceman613]

One point... and this isnt for AGD. These events were being designed to bring non-tourney players and non-paintballers to WATCH the sport. So chances are there were rec-ballers there, and I even saw a few people that looked like they simply showed up after work to see what paintball was.

[BradPalooza]

Call it what you want, bashing or not. A good portion of these posts come across as disrespectful, insolent, and rude. You're lucky to have gotten a civil response from him at all. I followed this thread because I was curious as to why they weren't there as well. I didn't pretend to know the in's and out's of it all. At least some of you have the balls to admit you went overboard.
-Brad

[shartley]

Originally posted by BradPalooza
Call it what you want, bashing or not. A good portion of these posts come across as disrespectful, insolent, and rude. You're lucky to have gotten a civil response from him at all. I followed this thread because I was curious as to why they weren't there as well. I didn't pretend to know the in's and out's of it all. At least some of you have the balls to admit you went overboard.
-Brad
Oh come on now Brad… be honest about it… Tom’s first response was not the height of professionalism either. I am glad he made his second post, but if folks are going to say that people are lucky to get a civil response, at least be honest about the TOTAL response. Yes, Tom is human, but so is everyone else.

The situation has been addressed so it should be the end of it….. so can folks not come in pointing fingers of condescension in ANY direction please? You may poke out an eye! ;):D

[Skoad]

My opinion is the only way you can really "change people's mind" about lets say AGD is get teams that use AGD markers win the big tournaments on a fairly regular basis.

I mean isn't that the basic sporting goods strategy?

[damageinc54]

Originally posted by AGD
Thanks guys....thanks a lot...

After personally traveling to over a dozen events almost every weekend for months, we don't go to ONE event and you drag me over the rocks. Go ahead pick up the bat and hit me in the head again... I am getting used to it and maybe soon I will learn to like it and be able to relax on a vacation.


Still reading the forums from Wyoming,

AGD

Call it what you want Tom. Every time somebody on these forums has an opinion like this one you get all defensive. You think I started this thread to "drag you over the rocks"? I started this because I was pissed off that the company I support and spend all kinds of my hard earned money on did not make any kind of showing at the biggest event to come to Chicago. You did not need a booth there for the guys that are playing in the event. Most of them have been around for a while and already have an opinion about your guns. In case you have not noticed there is a whole new generation of players out there. It gets bigger every day as the sport grows. You need to advertise your products to them. There were more kids and newbie looking players at the PSP then I could have ever imagined would show up to watch paintball. I saw countless soccer moms walking around with their kids and watching games. As long as you sit back and do nothing you are going to get surpassed by the other companies that are there. Word of mouth is not going to sell you guns. Not in today's paintball market. I dont care that you took a vacation. You could have had somebody at the event to show off your stuff. You have sponsored teams, you could have had one of them do it. I am not sponsored by you, but I would have been happy to spend all weekend there showing off AGD products.

[Meph]

Originally posted by damageinc54

As long as you sit back and do nothing ...


For one event.

I might suggest ya guys purchase this next.... some tissues! You'll need them for all the babycrying and moaning you're doing.

:rolleyes:

[nerobro]

Originally posted by AGD
Well the story is that both tournaments (PSP/NPPL) are a LOT more expensive than the PSP used to be. *big snip* There is a tournament war on right now and we can't afford to go to them all so don't expect us too. That's the way it is. Dye and Smart Parts are not showing up at NPPL events and WDP is a no show at PSP, any comments?

AGD

That's the answer I was looking for ;-) I was in the same boat with muz and it looked like the event was forgotten.

Actually WDP did have a booth setup at the PSP. It wasn't big, but they had a presance.

And like damageinc54 said, if you ever need a hand (and don't feel like closing down tech support) I think we could get you some qualified people to hauk product, and help tech guns. Too bad its 2k for a booth.

[WARPED1]

*EDIT* I commented before I read TK's post here, makes perfect sense.

[IcantBelieveit]

I just have a short tid-bit to add to this. WHO CARES IF THEY WERE NOT THERE!!! It is not your company, your money, your product. Bottom line is, why is there such a big fuss over soemthing you have NO control and never will. Tom has a lot of weight on his shoulders. I personally feel that a lot of you people have a chip on your shoulder for stupid little things...i won't mention names, but the ULE warp body, you have to cut the rail a little, and all of a sudden people started whining about it. The immaturity level of this forum is really amazing. I would just like to see someone NOT complain about SOMETHING for once
/endrant

[Ityl]

Tom, it's tough love. Just about everyone on AO wants AGD to be a successful company.

Maybe what would be a good idea is to hook up with a dealer that attends the big tournaments. Split the costs. That way people looking for AGD products would have a place to purchas them and people looking to purchase products could see AGD's products. Just an idea.

[TooDamnSweet]

Hey Tom, you can't please everyone all the time so stop trying. AND STOP READING THE FORUM AND ENJOY YOUR VACATION!

[DjGruv]

BIGGER?? Your nuts. X-ball is the future. PSP was alot bigger than the NPPL. Maybe down by you but not up here.






Originally posted by magman007


Listen, added on from hitech, the NPPL is much "bigger" and has been promoted much better than PSP, that is probabally why i think tom skipped PSP and went to NPPL. The Nppl is also "cleaner" in my ideas, with the judging, and it is much more professionally run.


PLus i dont think i would want to be associated with psp, i feel they are all a bunch of jackasses

[DjGruv]

Originally posted by IcantBelieveit
I just have a short tid-bit to add to this. WHO CARES IF THEY WERE NOT THERE!!! It is not your company, your money, your product. Bottom line is, why is there such a big fuss over soemthing you have NO control and never will. Tom has a lot of weight on his shoulders. I personally feel that a lot of you people have a chip on your shoulder for stupid little things...i won't mention names, but the ULE warp body, you have to cut the rail a little, and all of a sudden people started whining about it. The immaturity level of this forum is really amazing. I would just like to see someone NOT complain about SOMETHING for once
/endrant


From the looks of it We all care.

[DjGruv]

You should make a new gun!! Ya you can call it the "Bone Collector":rolleyes:

[IcantBelieveit]

Originally posted by DjGruv
You should make a new gun!! Ya you can call it the "Bone Collector":rolleyes:

No Flaming! cphilip

[bmexline]

i think its interesting that most of the negative posts were not about "i needed tech support and you werent there for me". most of the negative posts were about marketing, improving agd's reputation in the industry, showing people that agd guns dont "suck", and getting the public to be more aware of the new exciting products that are comming available. if anything Tom, you should ignore the whiners and take a great amount of pride in the fact that you have made a product that is so great that you have this many people that are concerned about the welfare and future of your company. you would be hard pressed to find any other paintball company that has such loyal fans as to care about the companies welfare. most customers just want a better product for less money and to h*** with the company and its viability.

[Scooter/Cootie]

Originally posted by bmexline
if anything Tom, you should ignore the whiners and take a great amount of pride in the fact that you have made a product that is so great that you have this many people that are concerned about the welfare and future of your company. you would be hard pressed to find any other paintball company that has such loyal fans as to care about the companies welfare.

Amen! :cool:

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by DjGruv
BIGGER?? Your nuts. X-ball is the future. PSP was alot bigger than the NPPL. Maybe down by you but not up here.





I must concur with the above statement.

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by HOMOCIDAL2
I'll bet none of you give up your vacation. Maybe Mr. Kaye gets tired of paintball for a couple of weeks a year, and wants to look at fossils. Thats his business. As far as his products go, ever since I bought my first mag ten years ago, I'll always use them. No matter what anybody thinks, because I like them. I don't care if he ever advertises anywhere as long as the quality stays the same. If 500,000 people don't know where to buy AGD stuff, I do. So let people go on vacation. It's nice to get away from work for a while.

I agree with you....

It does not generally affect you all who are whining...Don't critique someone whos been in business as long as Tom and his team has been holding AGD up.

He wants to go on vacation and not have anyone show up. Great! It affects none of your lives anyway.

Drama Queens! ;P

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Originally posted by lack of grace


I agree with you....

It does not generally affect you all who are *****ing...Don't critique someone whos been in business as long as Tom and his team has been holding AGD up.

He wants to go on vacation and not have anyone show up. Great! It affects none of your lives anyway.

Drama Queens! ;P


It doesn't matter if he's been in buisness for a year or for 50 years, BAD MARKETING IS BAD MARKETING. I'd rather a few people upset for not having their guns back on time then not get your new products out to the masses and not sell anything. Odyssey Paintball went to the Chicago PSP and I had sent my HALO to them to get upgraded. I have to wait, but I understand that they have to sell their product. Also, saying Dye, Smart Parts, and WDP did not show up is a very poor excuse. When I open a paintball magazine, those 3 companies have ads everywhere. Not to mention that the are some of the most respected companies in the buisness. Another thing, saying that Bad company playing with spyders and spyder showing up at events doesn't change people's opinion on them, well that doesn't matter. They aren't targeting the tourney players, they are targeting the beginners and players on a budget, and rec players. Well, I guess in the end, it isn't really my choice, and I really doubt posting on the internet will change anything. I just hope AGD gets a little wiser about advertizing and marketing.

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG

It doesn't matter if he's been in buisness for a year or for 50 years, BAD MARKETING IS BAD MARKETING.

What gives you the right for any type of judgement call?



Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG

I'd rather a few people upset for not having their guns back on time then not get your new products out to the masses and not sell anything.

Your opinion ultimately doesn't matter and your really not affected by them not showing. AGD does not care what "you would rather."

Where is your somewhat successful, very well known paintball company.

[Army]

Look at it this way:

New ULE bodies are here! So-long stainless steel, hello aluminum! WOO HOO!........well, except we didn't bring any here since we don't have enough in stock, and taking enough for the PSP would deplete our stocks so much our dealers and on-line sales would suffer terribly.

HOWEVER!

New Xvalve are here! So-long stainless steel, hello aluminum! WOOHOO!.........well, except we didn't bring any since we are so busy filling orders for our dealers and on-line sales, not to mention they are the new standard valve for RT-Pros-Emags-Xmags so we have to use nearly all we have in stock, and none were left the PSP.

HOWEVER!

The new Xmags are here! So-long heavy stainless steel marker, hello lightweight aluminum 'Cocker Killer!WOOHOO!........well, except we don't have any here, because they are made in England in small batches we have to keep our dealers happy, and on-line sales filled first before we have extras to bring to the PSP.

HOWEVER!

The new ULE Trigger is here! So-long heavy pull, hello electro-like mechanical dreams! WOOHOO!.......well, except we haven't made too many yet, as it is still in beta testing and we don't want to disappoint our dealers and on-line sales with another product failure possibility, so we didn't bring any to the PSP.

HOWEVER!

Tom and/or AGD have been at nearly every major tourney and scenario game for the last 8 months showing off what great AGD products and services that ARE in stock and available for immediate purchase and use, so Tom decided to take welcome vacation and relax doing his other hobby! WOOHOO!......well, until someone complained that Tom and/or AGD didn't make it to ONE tourney out of dozens....

[Blazestorm]

army = win. :eek:

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Look at it the way I am, sure I would be dissapointed if AGD wasn't at a event I was at. But if you go to a AO event your certin they are there. Now I don't know much about mark up or maketing. However, I just got on the X-Mag waiting list. I'm 442, Average one color X-Mag price is 1365. So say they don't sale any at the major tourneys. If I was them I would concentrated on the preorders. I mean with just the preorders that around lets see 442x1365 is......carry the 1.....wait hold on I'm gonna have to bust out the Ti-83....... thats $603,330. Give or take bout 30 grand for fades and such. Thats over 1/2 million dollars off one marker. So if I'm thinking like AGD it would be better to take care of the preorders rather then, show off gear you can't buy at a tourney.

TK-Relax have some fun you deserve it with out the stuff you have to do, also if you find a new dino will you name it the SpongeBobOSauris? :D

[Blazestorm]

Blazeosauros would be cool too ;D