Im Confused!!!! Bounce vs. reactivity

[a_malfunction]

There are new rules concerning trigger bounce in the major tournament circuits... These rules ban trigger bounce. Which by the way are unneccessary rules... the one shot per trigger pull rules that have been in effect since the shocker turbos are also dealing with bounce... I dont see why they came up with a new rule.

Anyway, I always thought that trigger bounce was the "turbo effect", Where the gun fired for each of the small electrical noise events when the switch was depressed. Why are people saying that the emag/rt are no longer tourney legal due to their bounce. They arent bouncing... arent trigger bounce and reactivity differnt things?

[Riddler236]

Trigger bounce is an effect that generates more than one shot from the gun when the trigger is intentionally depressed once. It's usually caused by holding an electro lightly and firing it - the small amount of recoil from the gun's operation will cause the trigger to bump up against your fingers and shoot itself repeatedly. Angels, Intimidators, Impulses and E-cockers are notorious for it.

Reactivity is a 'mag feature that makes the trigger return quickly.

At this point, reactivity is tournament legal as long as it does not induce trigger bounce and extra shots. In the mag world, we would call this 'runaway mode.' NPPL is supposedly discussing whether or not to ban reactive triggers. If they do, Tom Kaye can make and sell a different on/off pin that will eliminate reactivity.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by a_malfunction
There are new rules concerning trigger bounce in the major tournament circuits... These rules ban trigger bounce. Which by the way are unneccessary rules... the one shot per trigger pull rules that have been in effect since the shocker turbos are also dealing with bounce... I dont see why they came up with a new rule.

Anyway, I always thought that trigger bounce was the "turbo effect", Where the gun fired for each of the small electrical noise events when the switch was depressed. Why are people saying that the emag/rt are no longer tourney legal due to their bounce. They arent bouncing... arent trigger bounce and reactivity differnt things?

There is no "new" rule. Same rule as always... just recently there has been enforcment of a different cause for violation of it. One shot = one pull. Same rule as always.

[Lesman]

Hey guys,

I am confused! I am getting ready to play my first tournament (3 man rookie) and now I am worried that my RT Pro is not going to be legal. I run a 800 psi preset on my gun so it is pretty reactive but I don't have a problem with run on. What can I do to ensure my marker is tournie legal.

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by Lesman
Hey guys,

I am confused! I am getting ready to play my first tournament (3 man rookie) and now I am worried that my RT Pro is not going to be legal. I run a 800 psi preset on my gun so it is pretty reactive but I don't have a problem with run on. What can I do to ensure my marker is tournie legal.


you will be fine, just dont bounce your trigger.

[845]

Shhh dont tell anybody this but they probably wont notice if you do add a little itty bit of bounce at a local tourny. I know i am probably gonna get hell for this. Oh and bounce is when u set your trigger so light on the micro switch that just the kick of the gun and the slight force of your finger will set it on full auto. I have seen guns that r so bouncy u dont even have to pull the trigger after 2 shots. As long as you keep the reactivity down you should not have any problems with bounce.

[Mobius V]

So this bounce this is really only an issue for the really big tourneys like nppl or psp or whatever there called? Do you guys think it will be an issue in the future at local tourneys?

[kilaueakid]

I got harassed by x-ball refs at the chicago psp event last weekend. Needless to say I WAS NOT happy. I was told to fix my emag. I just don't see how they can say my hybrid mode was any worse than a timmy sweeting spotting on bounce at 16-18 bps. I ended up just flipping it to emode and left it there the rest of the time. There are some reffs that pull the trigger so slow and lightly that they are bound to find a point in the pull that there is either more reactivity or bounce, depending on the marker.

Bill Crookston was there and I saw him check a few guns and that guy does it the right way, with one normal pull. None of this barely pulling the trigger stuff. Anyway....sorry for the rant.

kila

[shartley]

Originally posted by kilaueakid
I got harassed by x-ball refs at the chicago psp event last weekend. Needless to say I WAS NOT happy. I was told to fix my emag. I just don't see how they can say my hybrid mode was any worse than a timmy sweeting spotting on bounce at 16-18 bps. I ended up just flipping it to emode and left it there the rest of the time. There are some reffs that pull the trigger so slow and lightly that they are bound to find a point in the pull that there is either more reactivity or bounce, depending on the marker.

Bill Crookston was there and I saw him check a few guns and that guy does it the right way, with one normal pull. None of this barely pulling the trigger stuff. Anyway....sorry for the rant.

kila
I feel that markers should most definitely be checked for reactivity and bounce…. But as pointed out in this post, it depends on the way they are checked.

All judges and refs should use a NORMAL to moderate speed trigger pulls when testing the markers. To slow the pull down way slower than would even be useful in a GAME situation is not only silly but would never be used that way by a player in the heat of a game. Heck if you had to pull it that slow to find the “sweet spot”, it kind of defeats the purpose of HAVING a “sweet spot”. ;)

[cgrieves]

At the last tourney I played at I had my Hyperframed mag pulled for trigger bounce. The chrono judge was pulling the trigger over a twenty second period and managing to get two shots out. Now as you say that's no advantage in a game, but we really need to establish some sort of consistency in the tests for bounce. On the other three fields neither I nor the judges had any problems with bounce for the rest of the day.

It seems to me that a microswitch has a very defined, infinitely small firing point, and a marker firing a paintball has a very defined recoil effect. It seems to me that any marker with a microswitch can be induced to bounce if you try hard enough.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Mobius V
So this bounce this is really only an issue for the really big tourneys like nppl or psp or whatever there called? Do you guys think it will be an issue in the future at local tourneys?

No, it's an issue anywhere it violates the rules (most tourneys) he's just suggesting that you should cheat by using it at smaller tourneys because you will be less likely to be caught.

I disagree with his suggestion.

As to trigger bounce, the same word has been used for different meantings.

It was first used by Smart Parts to describe the bounce of the electronic signal generated by the trigger switch. It sort of stutters on, then stutters off. This is a common feature of electrical switches. "Turbo Mode" counted some of these stutters as individual trigger pulls and acted on them, even though they did have some movement as their origin (thus SP argued they were valid trigger pulls) that movement was so small that it is not part of the "trigger pull" felt by the user - thus leading to the controversy (which was ultimately about the semantics of the rules, and could have been solved by a simple rule change but got derailed into issues of cheating and trigger design.)

Often trigger bounce is now used to refer to larger scale bouncing (back and forth movement) of the trigger caused by a combination of pressure from the user's finger and "recoil" of the gun and or a reactive trigger system. Both the NPPL and PSP loosely define a runaway trigger as one where the user can put pressure on the trigger and fire multiple shots, rather than making individual, conciously defined trigger pulls. It is a very subjective judgement made by the ultimate judge at the tournament. Most tournaments follow the same guidelines.

In order to avoid confusion, I recommend using the term switch bounce for what Smart Parts originally referred to as trigger bounce.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by shartley


All judges and refs should use a NORMAL to moderate speed trigger pulls when testing the markers. To slow the pull down way slower than would even be useful in a GAME situation is not only silly but would never be used that way by a player in the heat of a game. Heck if you had to pull it that slow to find the “sweet spot”, it kind of defeats the purpose of HAVING a “sweet spot”. ;)

I disagree.

I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it.

If the player on the other team had a gun that could shoot 300 fps when fired normally, but shot 400 fps when the trigger was pulled unusually slow, would you want the refs to leave that on the field?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[MarkM]

Originally posted by billmi


I disagree.

I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it.

If the player on the other team had a gun that could shoot 300 fps when fired normally, but shot 400 fps when the trigger was pulled unusually slow, would you want the refs to leave that on the field?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Well put Bill, if the judge can do it then so can you...remember that the judge has your marker in their hands for a fraction of the time you do and "you" will know how much pressure you need to put on "your" trigger to get it to fire more than one ball per pull. He has to search for that point as easily as he can and if that means a slow pull then so be it. Are there no times in a game where you are sitting there waiting for a player to come out from his/her barricade and you aren't firing? This complaining about bounce/runaway will continue after every tournament regardless of the letters the tournament is run under as players constantly want an "edge" and feel aggrieved when that "edge" is taken away from them. There are differring approaches to check for bounce and indeed for hot markers too, to standardise these checks in theory sounds good but in reality they need to be expanded to check all ways, this in turn will mean longer at the chrono station but then if teams actually turned up to have their markers checked on time this would not mean any schedule overruns. The one thing that I personally am unhappy to see removed from the chrono procedure is the now almost uniform adoption of the non-checking after a game, but to be fair to this thread that is another issue.

[shartley]

Originally posted by billmi
I disagree.

I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it.

If the player on the other team had a gun that could shoot 300 fps when fired normally, but shot 400 fps when the trigger was pulled unusually slow, would you want the refs to leave that on the field?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills
Good point. And no I would not. Thanks for pointing that out….. even if highly unlikey.

[Phil]

I really don't see the point of all of this. With the paintball arms race producing markers of increasing BPS capability does it really matter if those 16 balls flying at your bunker were produced by 16 trigger pulls or 1 trigger pull? The net result is identical in both cases. There are 16 freaking balls flying at your bunker in one second! I have heard safety used as the excuse for banning fire modes. How does requiring someone to move their finger really fast magically make things safer on the paintball field? The fastest trigger puller can probably hit 16-17 bps and with the new loaders you could hit ~20 bps on full auto. Do those 4 extra balls make a difference in safety? It seems to me that the way to go would be a BPS cap (which I know is not a new idea).

[shartley]

Originally posted by Phil
I really don't see the point of all of this. With the paintball arms race producing markers of increasing BPS capability does it really matter if those 16 balls flying at your bunker were produced by 16 trigger pulls or 1 trigger pull? The net result is identical in both cases. There are 16 freaking balls flying at your bunker in one second! I have heard safety used as the excuse for banning fire modes. How does requiring someone to move their finger really fast magically make things safer on the paintball field? The fastest trigger puller can probably hit 16-17 bps and with the new loaders you could hit ~20 bps on full auto. Do those 4 extra balls make a difference in safety? It seems to me that the way to go would be a BPS cap (which I know is not a new idea).
I see some of your points.. but I think the trigger pull has more to do with making the BPS the result of player skill and not the marker its self. It also has to do with the person controlling the number of shots fired and not the marker (although I would admit that when shooting 16BPS I don’t think a single person can say, “I am going to shoot at 16BPS and only shoot 26 balls.” Or even only 6 balls. ;) At that speed folks don’t have as much “control” as they would like to think they do.).

But you are correct… 16BPS is 16BPS no matter how it was achieved.

I think what would make tournaments MORE interesting is if they capped the BPS rate to 3 BPS. :D Talk about really forcing a player to use their OWN skills! ;) (NOTE: Before someone wants to lynch me…. I did NOT say that shooting high ROFs does not take skill.)

[Big'n slo]

SOLUTION = Pump only tourneys?

Just like the lottery, it only takes one. :p

[Phil]

There is not doubt about it that speedball takes alot of skill. I just recently started playing speedball (all of my friends play woods ball and refuse to change) and there is really alot of strategy to learn (when and where to shoot, when and where to move, communication etc...). I don't play in tourneys but I do play with good people who play in tourneys. I have noticed that there is a big reliance on the ability to put a butt-load of paint down field. I know what your thinking (the gun doesn't make the player) but the fact is that that person with a tippmann shooting 5 bps is infinitely handicapped when facing off against someone with a timmy shooting 15 bps. If both have equal playing ability then it comes down to the fact that one guy is throwing 15 balls and the other 5, both shooting for that one or two second window when the other guy is poking out firing. If they are both reasonably good shots then probability is on the side of the timmy. In the scope of this example it is not an issue of skill but rather BPS. The nature of the game has created the customer need for higher and higher BPS and the marker companies are just filling that demand. In my opinion it would make for a better game if the markers were capped at around 9 or 10 bps.

[Mag Master 04]

im very discouraged now cuz sometimes i cant stop my mag from "running away" i dont know what to do, ill be ripping on it then it will just "bounce" itself outta my control, other times ill just be chillin layin 1 or 2 shots at a time and it will just "bounce" away, i dont want this to happen in a tourney and get kicked out, whats this aftermarket on/off that is being made and how much will it cost:confused:
discouraged mag master 04:(

[lamby]

Originally posted by Mag Master 04
whats this aftermarket on/off that is being made and how much will it cost:confused:
discouraged mag master 04:(

Dude, you are screwed unless you get an adjustable output tank. the "aftermarket" on/off assy is not out yet so you can not get one. If you run your RT at about 650 PSI with a LX and 550 with a L7 that will drop your reactivity greatly (won't prevent it totaly, but it will be ALOT harder to achieve)

This looks my last thread ;)

[Mag Master 04]

when will this new on/off be released? and what would happen if i threw the classic assy in there like took out the whole rt on/off?

[logamus]

phil i totally agree with you. for years people have chanted that the gun doesnt matter, but i can assure you it does. you all have to ask yourselves, if you were playing rec ball and there were to people left. neither of them had played a minute of paintball in their lives. one has an emag, the other has a rental classic mag. which one do you pick? if you go by the theory that the gun doesnt matter then you can flip a coin and be happy regardless, but i feel pretty certain that 98% of us would take the noob with the emag. im not saying that skill has no place, as it certainly does, but too often the gun is overlooked as a part of the whole package.

as far as reducing bps, the only real way to do it consistantly is to outlaw forcefed loaders. if everything is gravity fed then it wont matter much if your bouncing the trigger.

[trains are bad]

All judges and refs should use a NORMAL to moderate speed trigger pulls when testing the markers.


it's a very subjective judgement

This is why we should go to F/A with a cap. Semi-only was a rule to limit ROF. It does not limit ROF anymore. And these markers are less safe. F/A, baby, cap wherever you wish. Paintball doesn't have the guts to do it though.

[tonybhall]

I disagree with Billmi when he says,

"I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it."

Here is my $.02 on this.

While I agree that since I play with my marker more than anyone that I can make it work better than a ref who only has a few seconds with it, that still does not change the fact that if it is so hard to make my marker bounce that it is of NO use in a game situation. If it is inconvenient enough, a player will not do it.

I would agree that a Ref should be able to slow the trigger pull down some to test, but I have seen refs go to the extreme on this and get a marker to bounce one time and pull it out of a game.

My RT Pro with ULT will bounce one time if I pull the trigger painfully slow. There is absolutly no reason that it should be pulled from a game, because to make it bounce actually lowers my ROF due to the amount of effort it takes and the fact that it will only do it once. So, when my gun bounces, I end up with a rate of fire (over the entire trigger pull) of about half a BPS. But, based on Bill's statement, my gun sould be pulled even though the "violaton" of the rules would actually be a handicap for me as a player. At some point there has to be some common since injected into this.

Bryan

P.S. I love you site Bill.

[FutureMagOwner]

well if your having problems with mech in mag just tighten the rear thumb screw with a wrench i was getting crazy sweet spotting (still in control) at definantly past 18 bps then i tightened it down to where i can only get like 4 balls off at most very slowly. EDIT: yeah i know that is bad still but its a HUGE improvement as you can tell :) although i never shoot like that anyway even when i do use mech.

[ZAust]

Originally posted by Y-Grip


Does this mean that there are shorter on/off pins to INCREASE reactivity? I want one that will make my trigger bounce off my finger like Z-Man can do.

you can grind down your on/off pin, but that is extremely stupid and voids your warranty with agd. wanna shoot like zak does? get a maxflo.

[Dayspring]

Actually, you increased the distance it travels in order to seal in the oring. Much like the ULT does.


Originally posted by Y-Grip
Actually I just tried something different. Instead of shortening the on/off pin I just placed one level 10 shim under my on/off assembly in my ReTro Valve. It seems to shoot a lot better. (Ghetto ULT mod) I think that small rise i created in the on/off assembly helps the gun fire a little quicker. Can someone do the thinking for me and tell me if the height of the on/off affects the reactivity? If you know what i mean. I didn't shorten the on/off pin I just kinda shortened the distance it has to travel to fire the gun. Anyone try this before? If not, try it and tell me what you think.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by tonybhall

I would agree that a Ref should be able to slow the trigger pull down some to test, but I have seen refs go to the extreme on this and get a marker to bounce one time and pull it out of a game.

My RT Pro with ULT will bounce one time if I pull the trigger painfully slow. There is absolutly no reason that it should be pulled from a game, because to make it bounce actually lowers my ROF due to the amount of effort it takes and the fact that it will only do it once. So, when my gun bounces, I end up with a rate of fire (over the entire trigger pull) of about half a BPS. But, based on Bill's statement, my gun sould be pulled even though the "violaton" of the rules would actually be a handicap for me as a player. At some point there has to be some common since injected into this.

I have to agree, there is bounce, and there is bounce. The one example up further, where over 20 seconds the ref could coax out two balls... who cares. If over 20 seconds he found a spot that truly bounced - and we all know what I mean by that - extended strings at high ROF - its another story. But two shots over 20 seconds is not a violation of the idea of the rule, even though it is a technical violation. We need to get the idea of the rule understood, the idea is to disallow markers with artificially high ROF - not the occassional "burp" that any electro-mechanical device might have.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Phil
I really don't see the point of all of this. With the paintball arms race producing markers of increasing BPS capability does it really matter if those 16 balls flying at your bunker were produced by 16 trigger pulls or 1 trigger pull?

Yes. When you go to bunker someone (or get bunkered by someone) do you want them to put one ball into you each time they pull the trigger, or 3-4 each trigger pull. Do you want them to be able to sweetspot and go pretty much full auto all over your back?

[SlartyBartFast]

To test, a solidly defined and realistic test procedure needs to be implemented and followed. Even better, a test rig should be built that could perform the whole chrono procedure.

As far as safety or multiple shots, clearly define and enforce overshooting rules.

Two or three breaks (or more) after a bunkering move? Both are out.

Even better, have the refs be more proactive and call players out when they are bunkered if they see balls bounce. The game should be about the skill of the players, not how padded the recipient is or how brittle the paint is.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
The game should be about the skill of the players, not how padded the recipient is or how brittle the paint is.

Would that include the skill of aiming for a hard place such as the pack? Refs are already supposed to check uniform to make sure it's acceptable length and such. I think the problem with a lot of this is the refs just don't care...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
Would that include the skill of aiming for a hard place such as the pack?

The skill should be hitting the player.

The only reason you have to hit a "hard" place is that there is so much padding in the first place. That and the rules stupidly make only hits leaving paint "valid" for eliminations. That's a fine rule for if there's a dispute, but not if it's clear to the ref the player was hit by paintballs.

It's like having hockey or soccer goals only count ig the puck/ball stays in the net. Or penalties for punches only if there's blood.

The various tournamnet rules are all fairly easily interpreted as: if you can reasonably be expected to have felt the impact, you should check yourself. So even then, on the first impact the player being bunkered is supposed to be checking themselves or calling for a teammate or ref to do so.

[lamby]

Well, net me back to the subject on the difference between bounce and "reactivity".

Trigger "bounce" is normally equated to "switch noise" all switches that use contacts will bounce off of the contact and generate multiple "contacts" from one depress. "debounce" is eliminated in a bunch of ways: most common are capacitive, and electronic. The capacitive measure uses a capacitor that will filter all the small false contacts to ground (thinking that they are AC which a cap will pass, as there is not enough time to charge the cap) a full contact will charge the cap and then pass the voltage out. Electronicly, you can have the circuit ignore any further contacts for a set amount of time until another read is allowed. This is what you see in timmies and e-cockers when you can adjust the "debounce" to 0 Normally you will see "bounce" on a contact release too.

"reactivity" is everything else. If you fire a marker with a set amount of pressure on the trigger and the recoil (or the trigger rod in a mag) causes the contact on the trigger to be lost then re aquired, that is reactivity and not bounce. But, electronic debounce can eliminate that also. capacitive debounce will help, but only to a point as the recharge time for the cap will start to effect the shaping of the pulse if you go to high (increased rise and fall times)

If you look at an e-cocker, or an IR3 angel, these use interupter led switches, these inherently do not have ANY bounce and the "full auto" effect you get is from reactivity. I do not know what switch is inside a timmy as I have never took one apart. The emag uses a bouncy HES system, and the angel LCDs use a contact switch (highly bouncy)

Hope this helps.

PS, a reactive gun that is shooting full auto with one trigger pull is still in all practicality a semi auto marker, the trigger is just moving fast enough to make it look full auto. The problem lies in what the rules state. With no air, a mag could be fine and with air go full auto. The rt/effect and recoil is causing the reactivity. If it goes full auto with no air, that is trigger bounce.

I just realized that this tread is almost a year old, and I posted in this before :P

[RtDaNiMaL]

i dont no about u guys but i totallt agree with BillMi cus just cus it might be uncomfortabe for players to get 20 bps doesnt mean they wont. they will do wut ever it takes to get out a player. any person in paintball knows that (especially tourney guys.)

[tonybhall]

There is a phrase that is often used when trying to interprit (sp) laws and rules: "Spirit of the law" (or in this case, spirit of the rule.)

Of course we don't want people reaching 20 bps through artificial means. If we are going to allow that we might as well just allow full auto mode. What I am saying is, just because a gun bounces does not nessecarily give it or the player an unfair advantage. I can make my RT Pro bounce, but it is so extremely hard to do that it takes pulling the trigger at a rate of about once every 3 seconds. Then, I only get one bounce. That's 2 shots in 3 seconds. Do the math, that's less than 1 BPS.

Now, obviously I am not getting any advantage out of this. This is not in violation of the "SPIRIT OF THE RULE." However, it is still bounce and can be achieved if you pull the trigger slowly enough. So, if a ref makes my RT PRO bounce by taking 5 seconds to pull the trigger, per Bill's statement, it should be pulled from the game. That is just nonsence. Let's have a little common sence here.

I an in no way getting any unfair advantage by the fact that my marker will bounce one time if I pull the trigger painfully slow. We should be focusing on real cheating and real problems and not letting 16 year old refs excersize their new found power by eliminating people for silly crap.

Just my 2 cents.

Bryan

[Brophog]

That might apply to YOUR GUN.

However, when we start talking about markers that I can slide my finger on (raking) and achieve 14-15 bps even though my finger only hit it 3 times, or markers that go off 5 times just by touching the trigger; that's cheating!

I wont use said markers, and not just because I play pump! ;) I personally cannot control the markers ROF well enough for myself to feel comfortable with them. Some people can, but I cannot.

Either way, you must draw the line somewhere; you allow marker assistance or your don't. It doesn't matter if it comes in the form of forced return, software cheating, firing modes......etc.

You either allow them, or you don't. The way the rules are written now, they explicitly say NO. The way the rules are interpreted are a different matter altogether.