?? What`s Fight Club..?

[Whisky]

?!?

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"Give me an inch... I`ll give you a bruise" -Andy Kopcok, team Image
Snap Snap
Bang Bang
You`re Out

[mykroft]

Fight Club is the new forum AGD was talking about, it's for certain illustrious members of our group to discuss things with an extremely low signal-noise ratio, basicly it's for tech discussions between the demi-gods amongst us.

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Mykroft Holmes IV
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My Mag:
CF11023
Classic Feed
16" CP .689
14" JnJ Stainless
Ring trigger
WGP Reg.
Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA

Accuracy By Volume is not the answer

[thecavemankevin]

fight club is a new selective forum that you have to invited into. I am still unclear as to why we need this???

someone care to enlighten me.

[Rooster]

I would like to know as well, it seems to defeat the purpose of this forum. I came here well over a year ago from IPR. (Back before AGD owned the site, and before we ever knew AGD was actually T.K.) In that time I havn't made 50 posts, but I have read a great deal of them. The reason i stayed was becuase the discusion was intelligent, trolls were delt with, and it was all a big online family.

This whole fight club thing is 180 degrees from the right way to go. It seperates the knowlegable posters from the unwashed masses. If they are worried about their posts being lost in a sea of OT junk, maybe the OT junk should be gotten rid of.

This does two harmful things to this community, first it divides it, and rather arbitrarily; and second it leaves that much more room for junk to be posted on the main.

Get the non-paintball stuff off the main, and we get back to where we were prior to the shut-down. And in my opinion, that smaller, closer-knit community was much preferable.

Rooster

[This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Major Ho]

Shhh...First Rule of Fight Club is not to talk about it http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif We are supposed to be enlightened by the brilliant conversation of the guru's. Im readily awaiting these fascinating convo.s

[Rooster]

And not to be able to participate in the discussion ourselves? I might as well be being lectured at school.

[Restola]

i always figured the best next-step for forums was an O/T forum. IPR has great general discussion and flame forums.

as long as we can read these posts from the gods i have no problem. i dont post much anyways.

[AGD]

Fight Club is meant to sort out the most inteligent posts and put them in a place where the casual reader can go read them all at once. It (if it works right) will condense the best of what this forum has to offer into an easy to read section. We have been loosing the interest of many old time people because they find it tiring to wade through all the posts looking for ones to read.

Please don't take this as segregation, if that becomes the general feeling we will have to kill the club.

AGD

[ZeezNutz]

i think it is a good idea. there are too many off the wall posts on here. i am one of the people that dont know anything yet but it is hard to learn from these forums if you cant find anything useful.

[Rooster]

If this was a forum for only AGD staff to post about new products, like the trigger frame, or the modular bodies, and then people can comment on the main, I could understand that. For you this forum is an investment, and i understand why its important to get opinions about new stuff for marketing. 1000 brains is better than 1. This forum helps you to get information out, and thats important.

However, to have a board where only the elite are represented is divisive to the community. If you can post there, why post here? If the goal is to keep people on topic, why not make an off-topic board? I can read a FAQ just like the next guy, which is what the fight-club board will become, just a huge FAQ. But what if I have a question about something that someone posted, or a comment? Why not make the board so only registered Club members can post, but anyone can reply. Slap me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the point of a discussion forum was to discuss stuff, not watch it happen.

[Thordic]

Personally, I don't really expect to get in, nor do I care, because the amount of intelligent knowledge I know about Mags and pneumatics in general could probably fit in a thimble.

But there are those here who won't get in and WILL care. They will feel excluded, and then they'll be angry.

What will this do? It will divide the community. It's turning AO into a class system where you have the aristocratic elite and the peon commoners :-) This causes inter-class tension. Hasn't anyone here ever taken sociology? I'm not guessing this will happen, it's proven human nature.

If there were a forum just for AGD employees/engineers/techs to discuss stuff where we could watch, that would be one thing. That would be like looking through the glass into the DNA extraction chamber at Jurrasic Park. But Fight Club is more like looking up at a glass ceiling and wondering who you have to sleep with to get on the elevator.

I think that AO is the best paintball forum on the net, and I don't want to see problems because of Fight Club, and I can only see that happening.

Tom, I hope you prove me wrong, keep going on with your beta test. :-)

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CamoSplashed MiniMag
S/N MM12913
Clear AGD Warp Feed
14" SP AA

Lots of stuff coming...

[shoulda used spellcheck the FIRST time :-)]

[This message has been edited by Thordic (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Webmaster]

Im not sure how well fight club will work out - but maybe instead of feeling left out and bitter - you give it a chance and listen to people much smarter than you hash out some interesting topics. Maybe you will LEARN something. Im not saying you all are idiots. Hell - its hard for me to keep up some times and I consider myself pretty sharp. But Tom, Rob, Manike, and Bill Mills (to name a few) have a DEEP understanding of how paintball gear operates and have a solid understanding of engineering. A school lecture? Nothing so formal. But you might learn a thing or two if you stop passing notes and throwing airplanes.

There is NOTHING stopping you guys from taking a topic from Fight Club and discussing it on here.

Also - in order to build a community - you must allow off topic posts. Other wise people get bored reading about power tube spacers for the 10th time this week. It is also too costly in the way of the time for our moderators. It also breed bad feeling from users because they feel repressed. So - let me state yet again, that OT posts will continue on the main forum.

Im sorry you all feel this is going to split us up. To be honest - it was Toms idea and soemthing he got excited about. I mean - if you have ever met Tom in person, you dont talk alot. You do alot of listening. You prod and ask some questions, but in general you here what he has to say. I think Tom wanted a forum more centric to his thinking - having people he knows help him discuss something beyond what drop forward to get. I think he was hoping that you all would see it as a way to view a roundtable discussion among select panalists...

Well - we all see things different. I hope it works out. But dont worry - we can kill the forum in one minute should it damage our community...

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Webmaster - AutoMags.Org
webmaster@automags.org
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"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

[Rooster]

Shooting the Dingo after it eats your baby is just a little late to do any good, except for maybe your conscience.

I know i will never make it into the club. I got RL issues that keep me from making paintball my life (god knows i wish i could). I also realize that alot of knowledge is and will be represented by the Club. Just the staff alone has forgotten more than most of us could learn in a dozen lifetimes.

Which is why I was glad they were posting on our (main) board! It gave us a chance to interact with people that we look up to and respect. It made me proud to be a Mag owner, becuase it felt like the man who masterminded our gun was right down there in the trenches with us. He is doing his best to be number one in producing guns and we are doing our best to become number one while using them. Will that continue?

I don't know. Where I'm from, its all about the good old boy system, and thats what this reeks of. Everyone hates the good old boy network becuase its elitest, that is until they get asked to join, then they are all gun-ho. They turn their backs on the people that used to be their friends. Are the good old boys the most knowledgable farmers in the tri-county area? Sure. Does anyone besides them care? Not Really.

I don't know, maybe I'm just cynical when it comes to human nature, but thats all I can see this becoming, I've seen it happen too many times to think otherwise.

"The road to hell is paved with good intensions."

[This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Thordic]

If that's the way it turns out, Webby, then great, I'm all for it.

But I see people voting for Son, xSpyx, and Pyro. No offense to either of them (As much as I love to make fun of Pyro :-), but they aren't exact the premeir paintball minds on this site. They just post a lot. And thats not a bad thing, there are a lot of questions here that these guys answer.

I think that if Tom wants it to be a group of people who can come up with innovative paintball ideas, then he should handchoose them himself. And the list should be small.

I'm thinking Tom, Rob, the other AGD employees (JJ, John Sosta, etc), manike, Bill Mills, etc, but not just people who post a lot on here like cphilip (Nothing against you, man, just trying to hopefully make a point here without pissing anyone off.) Cphilip is a great guy, and superhelpful, but I don't know if he is going to be the guy to think up the "next big thing".

I hope no one takes this the wrong way and understands the way I mean this, I just used cphilips name because it popped into my head, and I figure he's the least likely to take this personally.

I'm going to stop rambling and give other people a shot...

And by the way, Webby, I don't feel left out and bitter, if you were aiming that at me, I'm just trying to prevent other people from ending up that way.

[This message has been edited by Thordic (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Ityl]

I think there are other ways of dealing with the problems on the site other than segregating which you are doing. I have a little over 100 posts, a bunch were lost. I could 900 if I posted pointless stuff which a lot of people do. So people that get there names out will be most known and the first and most likely to get into the club. Out of all my posts I probably have 5 that were pointless and didn't need to be written, all others were to answer a question or ask one.

I still think another forum is necessary, a general paintball forum which OT threads would be allowed. Use the main forum for Mag stuff only. This would clear it out.

There are people intelligent on this site that don't post every other second.

Just my opinion on the matter.

[Webmaster]

First off - Rooster seems to be lamenting the LOSS of Tom Kaye and others. They arent going anywhere! The "unwashed masses" will still ask quesitons, Tom will still answer them, and Tom will stil be asking everyone in the main forum thier opinion on upcoming projects.

The people who get post privilages do so because Tom has met them in real life - or thier posts have caught his attention. I know for a fact post count doesnt mean anything.

And one more thing about new forums etc. We are going to open up a couple new forums - but you guys think this is a magic cure all - its not! We have a hard enough time getting you guys to post where you are supposed to with only 4 forums - if we open it up it will mean even more people will put posts in the wrong place. More forums is all well and good - IF people use them. And thus far I see a ton of tech posts in the main forum and vice versa.

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Webmaster - AutoMags.Org
webmaster@automags.org
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"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

[Rooster]

Like I said, the road to hell is paved with good intensions. By concentrating the intelligence from this forum and putting it on another you are opening the door to their leaving and not coming back. If you could post important ideas somewhere else with out having Joe Noob's OT post pushing it down, wouldn't you?

I agree, the forum is a great idea for making a community of our best and brightest and having them debate things that could make AO, AGD, and paintball better. Its like an artist's colony, or a brain trust. But the problem is that those are closed societies and could very easily become elitest. Will it happen? Who is to say. Could it happen? Of course. Ever read Animal Farm?

I have my own ideas about what a semi-automatic is becuase i was a sport shooter for 10 years. But I have to email cphillip with my ideas becuase aparently I'm not intellegent enough to carry on a conversation with the movers and shakers on this forum.

Seperate but equal isn't equal at all. Either all our opinions count or you might as well revoke all our posting privilages and make the forum a bulitin board. Never have to worry about posts getting buried, never have to worry about flames or noobs making multiple posts. I'd still read it, and then at least I would know what my place is.

I deeply respect the patriarchs of the AO family. They have alot of wisdom to impart. But an invite only forum is is just as bad as an invite only country club or anything else elitest. There is only one thing that makes one elitest organization different from another, and thats when the rules to get in are completely subjective. Having a forum for techs only, or mods only is one thing, this club is something else. Didn't anyone get enough of this popularity contest stuff in high school? Thats what it is. Nominate your buddy, nominate the people you think will be most valuable to you. Then you get people posting stuff like all your posts are fluff, you don't deserve to be in, you nominated yourself, you don't deserve to be in.

The cracks are forming, and the lines are being drawn. Its really sad to me, becuase I love this place. But the fact is that it existed before AGD bought it, and it can exist without them. If enough people find this as much of a problem as I do, whos to say what will happen?

Why should it even come to that? I thought the overwhelming concerns about the forum would have quashed it, and yet today i log in and find it there. All the people pre-invited leap to defend it, and those who find the idea loathesome are told in so many words to learn to like it.

[rt_81]

jeez, what a headache!!! i mean i think the idea could fly, nothing will be hurt in trying. but i feel like im sitting in on a session of congress here. its like were about to decide the fate of the world. paintball is supposed to be fun, thus since this is a paintball site it too should be fun. lets just try it out and go from there. if it doesnt work out, people will voice their opinions at that time and we can do what we need to to fix it.

RT

[Webmaster]

Rooster...

Start your own topic in the main forum. Im sure everyone would love to hear your ideas.

I still dont feel this is an elitist group. I am sorry that you find it that way. Its not a private group for us to stroke eachothers egos (I CAN make it so only people who can post can view the forum). The idea was to get some interesting conversation...

I dunno - I see your point but I just dont think you are giving it a fair shake...

I dont want people to feel like this is an elitist forum - at the same time it *IS* Toms money that makes this all possible - he deserves to have some fun with it...

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Webmaster - AutoMags.Org
webmaster@automags.org
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"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 07-18-2001).]

[MagDog68]

Phil, I didn't mean to say your opinions were worthless. Far from it. And I know that you don't just go around posting tons of crap to get your numbers up either.

Actually, i haven't been on as much as normal lately and all these changes happened rather fast. I guess I'll sit down and shut up till I have read through everything and know what is going on

~fRED

[Big Red One]

Rooster, I see your point, but you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Fight Club is a forum where yes, call them the great minds if you will, can gather and discuss in-depth technical aspects of the sport and equipment. But it is not for their enjoyment alone, that is why webby has allowed us to be able to view all that is written, rather than a closed access post.

We can learn while avoiding the inevitable response, like:

AGD---" I believe Caudle Fusion has much to do with the advancement of technology in allowing the 'Cocker to far out range an Automag, don't you"?

newbidoobie---"cockers suck dude"!

We instead will read a response from the likes of Bill Mills, or Miscue among other notable members, reaffirming the fact that no gun out-ranges another and this is the physics to prove it, ya nutty bone hunter.

I am slowly warming to the Fight Club idea, and it will be awhile until I can fully accept it, but until then I will watch Tom's new toy develope.

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That's strange, I could have sworn I left it here.

[Rooster]

I know perfectly well that you can make the forum so that only registered users can access the page. I've intalled UBB more times than i can count, and I've written better board systems myself.

That fact that you would even bring that up solidifies my point even more. I know its all about what Tom wants. I can understand why he wants a forum that eliminates the rif-raf from it. What I hope he understands is that a great many people are going to be upset that they have been left behind.

The correct method of making this forum not seem like an elitest forum is not to tell people it isn't. I've got eyes, I've got a mind, I know whats elitest and whats not, I don't need you to explain it to me.

This forum was for everyone, now its not. The biggest noob and the president of the company were equals, now they arn't.

I'm done caring, which is sad, becuase this used to be something I cared about. I've checked these boards religiously for over 15 months now. If people refuse to see past their own nose, theres no way i can help them.

[manike]

Rooster,

I'm sorry you see it that way. Can you not see it as a way or as an incentive for people to post better and think harder about things in an effort to become a member? Maybe people will stop posting 'ups' and the quality of the whole board will go up.

I have no intention of just posting there. I intend to post here also (although I admit I'm one of webby's bad guys who doesn't look into the tech forum much... http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'm hoping it will be an incentive for people to pay more attention in their physics classes... to learn the maths behind the theories... and to think with an open mind. If doing this gets just a couple of people to think harder about their world then it's a great thing and in my mind makes up for those that don't feel they are part of it... if it helps people find knowledge that would otherwise have been lost on the board it's a good thing.

The only bad thing is that some will be jealous. If that is an incentive for them to be upset that is about their charachter. Jealousy is something we all have to be able to deal with in real life. If it is an incentive for them to learn then that is also about their charachter, and those are the people that this will help.

It is a resource and incentive not a reason for jealousy.

I feel the same way about my peers. I strive to test my mind and to push my limits. I don't sit and get upset at not being able to do it or be part of it, or if someone knows more about something than me. I work hard to become part of it, if I want to be. Knowledge is a valuable thing and the more people can get to easily the better.

I've been told many things were impossible in my life, when I hear that I like to try and prove those people wrong. If I wasn't part of FC and wanted to be, I would be trying to think of new interesting posts and information so I could get in. That is, I think, a very good thing for these boards, as those posts will be here in the main forum!

I've been posting on the net for years, I do it mainly to give help and to try and stop the spread of hype and BS which I feel ruins our sport. I don't often start threads, just respond to them. In nearly two years of posting on PBC I think I had a total of 500ish posts, I don't post for count, I post to help and to debate. If I feel there is somewhere my information can help someone else then to me it's a good thing. If someone see's something there that inspires them to ask more questions here then it's done it's job also. Posts are more likely to stay visible for a longer time there so that may well happen.

I do understand your point. I hope you can see mine and what this forum might achieve, or mean to some people.

manike

[Rooster]

I can understand why industry people want their own forum. You all understand this stuff, and you are paid to do it.

I don't. I don't have time to. I have to concentrate my time on making enough money to stay alive and maybe have enough left to play paintball once that month.

If its an elitest club, then lets be out with it. Tell us that our input is not wanted and lets quit beating around the bush. Tell us we arn't wanted, and not this bit about it being good for all.

If you want your club, have it, but don't feed us BS and tell us its chocolate pudding.

[manike]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
I can understand why industry people want their own forum. You all understand this stuff, and you are paid to do it.</font>

I'm not in this industry, although I do have aspirations to be, I am not at the moment. I don't get paid to be involved in paintball. In fact it has cost me a small fortune.


<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
I don't. I don't have time to. I have to concentrate my time on making enough money to stay alive and maybe have enough left to play paintball once that month.</font>

I don't even get to play once a month. But I think paintball every day. It's my hobby and distraction from work http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif


<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
If its an elitest club, then lets be out with it. Tell us that our input is not wanted and lets quit beating around the bush. Tell us we arn't wanted, and not this bit about it being good for all. </font>

The requirements to be part of the FC are open. You know what is required. If/When you meet the requirments you will be a member. Is college an elitis institution because you need to meet certain capabilities/criteria...? is a job an elitist club because you need to have certain qualifications/capabilities... It's only elitist if you don't put the effort into becoming a member/getting the job or getting into college. In each of these cases you are judged by others and your peers. That's not elitisim in my mind.


<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
If you want your club, have it, but don't feed us BS and tell us its chocolate pudding.</font>

You've been told why it is there and what potential benefits could come from it. If you wish to see it as something else that is your choice. Nobody can tell you what to think, but they can help you to learn... That's what it is about for me. The ability to learn for myself and to help others to learn.

manike

[Whisky]

Chocolate pudding would be nice. Any one else hungry...?

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"Give me an inch... I`ll give you a bruise" -Andy Kopcok, team Image
Snap Snap
Bang Bang
You`re Out

[Miscue]

Well put Manike.

Hey, I couldn't get on the highschool football team because I'm a scrawny twerp... not because the coach was an elitist. I can't run fast, I can't throw, I can't catch, I can't kick the ball, and the opposing front line could just look at me and I'd fall over and hurt myself. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

But if I really wanted to... and I worked hard at it, maybe I could have made the team. But regardless of all of this, I still have a lot of fun watching the game.

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"Sophists play with 65 squares." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[Whisky]

That was just a simple quetion. What`s fight club. I think i got enough answer for now.
I have to say that i am very sad about what s going on here. That is realy tearing us apart.
Anyway, i use to like this forum, i am not a posting maniac, my english is not good enough for that, but i use to come here 10 times a day to read every post, but this thing is going to far.
For one thing Tom you were right, you`ve choosen the right name "Fight" club...



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"Give me an inch... I`ll give you a bruise" -Andy Kopcok, team Image
Snap Snap
Bang Bang
You`re Out

[gmag]

I agree with Rooster. This is ridiculous. Not only did you insult my intelligence, not only do I feel excluded and alienated from the "great minds" of AO, but you have also spit in my face. Do you call this a family? The only word to describe this family is disfunctional.

[Rooster]

manike, unless im mistaken, and i often am, you are the guy who writes for warpig about European events. If writing regularly for the biggest paintball information site on the internet isn't being in the industry, i don't know what is.

This whole fight club thing came about and it was billed as a great thing for the family. All the brains would be in one place, and the information would leak down to the masses. When people started saying "hey, i could see this cuasing a massive rift." They were ignored. They are still being ignored.

The criteria is not open, it is completely subjective. When you apply for a job you have a punch sheet of what you have to have to get the job. If they hire someone with less and you were otherwise the same, its discrimination. You know the requirements to get into college. Where do the fight club rules say it takes a 600 on the verbal portion of the fight club enterance exam?

Yes, you are right its just like the football team. Its just like high level paintball teams, its just like elite country clubs where you get asked to join. Which is elitest.

Like I said, if you want an elitest club, have it. I want no part of it, and i never did, that's not what this is about. What this is about is that you want your club, you won't admit its elitest, and you arn't willing to accept the idea it very well could harm the community (which i personally beleive it will).

All I want is for someone to own up.

[shartley]

I know noone here knows me, but I have been visiting for some time. The thing about this string (and topic) that confuses me, is that everyone seems to miss one crucial fact….

YOU HAVE RULES AND MODERATORS FOR A REASON!

What does that mean? You can not use the excuse that the “Fight Club” is designed to be pure logic and great information, void of all off-topic posts, trollers, flamers, and general idiots. To an outside viewer, it IS an elitist group, no matter how nice you want to put it. And I am shocked that such intelligent people can’t see that.

What a moderator does is MODERATE! Simply put, moderators need to do their job, or NOT BE moderators. Moderators are charged with controlling their Topics and modifying or deleting any posts not relevant to the topic or against your basic rules of posting.

Am I the ONLY one who knows how to run a Message Board System? (Note: yes I moderate them as well. Heck I moderate some boards that I know NOTHING about the subject matter. Knowing the subject helps in adding TO a conversation, but is NOT needed to be a good MODERATOR.)

In short, “fight club” was a good idea, but one not quite thought out from all angles. This also surprises me, being that Tom was the one to put it in action. Would you design a new marker and put it in production without doing studies (or at a minimum THINKING) on how it will be received by the populous and buying market? And not all “good ideas” need to be put into action, moreso one that has far many disadvantages to advantages.

With that said, I have BEEN to your “fight club” and I must say that you can do as you please (it IS your board after all), but such fuss over THAT? LOL Let’s all take a deep breath…….

Now… does anyone see anything there that is “better” or “more intelligent” than could be posted in the “general population”? LOL

I don’t think Rooster is jealous, I think he is just a realist in a world of rose colored glasses. I urge Tom and his staff to SERIOUSLY reconsider their “club”. As a businessman, I know all too well about PR, and THIS is not a good PR move.

(oh, and I keep reading “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”… Why is that? Are there too few BAD intentions? LOL)

[Army]

Big Red One; you have it right, the club will deal with in depth answers to in depth questions. The Main forum, while having some intelligent threads, becomes over-burdened with silly responses to serious inquires. (Yes, I am guilty of some of those silly answers too http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif )

No-one will abandon the other forums just because they are in the club, that's silly. We are too diverse in our thoughts and personal style to be so shallow.

Lighten up Rooster, give it a chance before you call it a failure http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory." BG Patton 1936

[Webmaster]

Rooster...aw come on why are you calling our pudding a cow pie :O( You havent even read the menu to see what we are serving. If I give in and say that - Fine - its an elitist forum - will it appease you?

Shartley - wow - stealth attack under the radar?! Are our moderators doing such a bad job? I feel that we do know how to run a board. Some people opt to let thier members have a certain amount of freedom - as long as they act reasonable. When they fail to do so, is when we step in. There are other boards more militant about it - and thats fine.

You post puzzles me because that really ISNT the issure. Fight Club is NOT a cure for OT, trolls, and flames of the general forum. Its more of a round table discussion between Tom and selected members.

So when you attack my mods I get a bit defensive - especially since thier job performance has NOTHING to do with the existance of fight club.



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Webmaster - AutoMags.Org
webmaster@automags.org
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"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

[Miscue]

If the moderators are doing a bad job, then why would they leave a post like that hanging? Bad moderators would remove it immediately. Good moderators allow even ideas that are personally disagreeable to them to stay, so long as they are within the rules. Remember what it was like before AGD? The AO mods would delete whatever displeased them, and would attack the poster on top of it. Is this what you miss?

-Miscue

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"Sophists play with 65 squares." - Miscue

Miscue's Profile (http://www.liquidmagma.com/automags/miscue.php)

[cphilip]

No, your right. I am the least capable one for sure of all those named. However it is my intent to also be the ordinary person to relay your comments. That's how I am approaching it. Outside of Chemicals and a few other safety areas my other contributory skills are weak. However my resources and investigative skills are as good as anyone out there. What I don't know I can find out about real quick. And a lot of my posts are observational and philosophical. If that adds something to the Fight Club great. If not then I will not post much and be off of there real quick.

No offense taken at all. I fully agree with you. I have never claimed to be knowledgeable on all areas.

[This message has been edited by cphilip (edited 07-18-2001).]

[MagDog68]

Thordic definitely has a point about the people selected to join this forum. If you want great paintball minds to collaborate/debate in a forum, I think you should have gone for the experts: Tom, Rob, JJ, John Sosta, manike, Bill Mills, etc. Choosing people who just happen to have 900 posts doesn't necessarily mean you will get the quality you expect. Since when did quantity ever equal quality?

~Fred

[cphilip]

Good point Fred. It doesn't. But neither is the assumption that someone with 900 post was selected for those 900 posts either. Or that none of those 900 posts was worth anything. Most of them are not. But no one should be penalized for having fun here. Or not. I think Tom was clear that post count was not a selection criteria nor was knowledge of manufacturing PB equipment. I believe he is trying to create a stimulating group of people from a varied cross section of disiplines to spar around with. Not just PB guys. And in my case I have to think they wanted someone to make them all look a bit smarter and to ask them questions we all want to know but haven't been thouroghly discussed before.

[Rooster]

I thought that that was the whole point of this forum. To let the unwashed masses ask the questions about things we don't understand. Why do we need you to be our go-between? I repect your opinions, but this all seems to be about seperating us from the people that we have been so excited to communicate with. All conversations about new products and tech tips and all of those things have been well recived, and have very few Joe "New Guy" Doe replies that say stupid things like "Mags suck anyways so why waste the time?" All of the replies made to our more esteamed members have always been for the most part insightful, and for the least part inquisitive.

I'm not a power poster, or a tech, or even a guy with alot to contribute, and I'm sick of seeing posts go down the drain becuase of "How Old are you?" posts. This can't be the best solution.

[This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 07-18-2001).]

[RobAGD]

Ok

to Rooster and shartley -

The only people that really seem to be having fits about this is you 2. There are people that have mentioned they didn't think it was the best idea and they left it at that.

Rooster - you seem to have a particular burr up your bum about this. Let's put it this way, the people that show an insight into the working of paintball guns, air system or in general have good posts on a regular basis they get the chance to show what they know in a forum with peopel that do this for a living. If they in turn abuse this they will lose it.

They idea is to have very deep discussions in a forum that wont get cluttered with fluff post.

I WANTED an few extra forums to help clean up the main forum but some of what I had suggested was shot down. Tom wated to try this to see how it works if it causes too much of a problem with the users of AO then we will change it.

We are looking at a few new forums, one for doing some archiving of good threads, FAQ's, and general knowledge stuff.

A Tom ProtoType forum again I think this will be more of a Archive because the main post for that will be in main and then moved to the Archive.

We try to let people have a basically free run of things. Hence we dont move a ton of post, dont typically have to edit many or delete many. I think I have killed less than 10 threads, and edited less than 20 post. I have moved a few.

Now that post counts are up we need to start poking poeple to post to the correct forums. But as it looks now there is a TON of cross posting and we need to clean that up a bit.

But we do what we are told, we talk and email back a forth and we over all try to make this a fun place.

There always seems to be some people that can't see past thier nose for the betterment of thing for the group, because it dosent fit into thier precived roll of things.

You have had you say, and we have noted it, move on to something else and stop harping on this. Use your energy for something other than this.

-Robert

[cphilip]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
Why do we need you to be our go-between? </font>

You don't and if you chose to not take advange of my offer I won't. maybe I phrased it wrong. Sorry I got in now as a matter of fact. I never lobbied for the idea nor the position. Others put me up without my urging. But since I did I am trying to make Tom's idea work. For him. Go back on the original post for the idea and read my input. I don't expect you to to respect me and my experience that I can give to it. I expect to have to earn that. In the mean time I offered and you chose not to accept it. Enough said about it from me.


[This message has been edited by cphilip (edited 07-18-2001).]

[manike]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
manike, unless im mistaken, and i often am, you are the guy who writes for warpig about European events. If writing regularly for the biggest paintball information site on the internet isn't being in the industry, i don't know what is.</font>

Hi Rooster, You are not mistaken that is me.

I do write articles and send them into warpig exactly the same as I write huge posts on lots of different boards. They are all submitted voluntarily and it's upto the webmasters of such boards if they allow my articles/posts to be read by all.

The articles I write for warpig are done voluntarily in my free time. I do not get paid for them. I do not even get expenses for them. It actually costs me quite a lot sometimes to be able to write them. I write them to be part of paintball and to try and help improve paintball for all. Exactly the same reasons I post on boards like this. If we all here are posting our views and showing pictures we have taken does that make us all part of the industry? I use warpig like I use this board, as a means to share pictures and information with people.

If you wrote an article and submitted it to a magazine voluntarily does that make you part of the industry? If you write a letter to APG and they print it?

Maybe it does? I am looking to be part of the industry but so far paintball has not paid me a penny (well apart from marshalling a local site... http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif )

manike

p.s. One great point to this thread Rooster is that yourself and others who feel your way, are debating and seriously thinking about their posts. That's all good and is food for thought. It's not in FC but who cares, FC is causing good debate even in the main forum. (It's doesn't even matter what the debate is about in my mind).

[MagMan5446]

I thought that we weren't supposed to talk about fight club. Didn't Tyler make the first two rules very clear?

------------------
You need coolin', baby, I'm not foolin',
I'm gonna say it, yeh! Go back to schoolin',
Way down inside honey, you need it,
I'm gonna give you my love,
I'm gonna give you my love.

Wanna whole lotta love.
Wanna whole lotta love.
Whole lotta love.

-Led Zeppelin

[blembiggity]

<a href="http://www.skanline.com">
<img src="SLS468x60_Force-Yellow.jpg" width="468" height="60" border="0"></a>

[shartley]

How did I know the responses I received would happen? LOL

#1. I did not attack Moderators. I made the point that it was mentioned about cross-topic posts, off-topic posts, etc. being an excuse used FOR having the “fight club”. I then explained why that excuse did NOT work. If the shoe fits… if not, why take offense? If your moderators are doing a good job (and I did not say they were not) then why would you take offence? You like to pick and choose what you READ and HOW you read it.

You are now using opposing arguments to prove why the “fight club” is such a good thing, and WHY it was started? Sorry, webby, you can’t have it both ways. I personally think the moderators were doing fine, it was YOUR posters who brought up the issues directly under moderator control as being a reason FOR the club. That makes YOUR posters the people insinuating that your moderators were not doing their jobs, not me. I simply pointed this out.

#2. I could care less about the “fight club” and if you have it or not. It does not personally bother me (as some have stated). Remember? I have been coming here for some time, and NEVER posted. I don’t have the need for “recognition” or to be put on some “paintball pedestal”… it is JUST A GAME. Sure some people make money off the game, but for MOST here, it is just another aspect of their lives, NOT their lives. I enjoy reading the posts. It helps me learn more about the sport and its equipment.

I just offered another view to the situation. And as for Rooster and myself being the ONLY people who have a problem with it… Being that I don’t really HAVE a problem with it, that just makes NO sense… and I highly doubt that Rooster is the ONLY person who feels the way he does. More times than not people don’t want to make waves or buck the majority (or what they perceive to be the majority, which often is actually a more vocal MINORITY).

#3. This was not a stealth attack. Webby, I have seen on more than one occasion that you tend to take offense at simple offhand comments. I am no shrink, but that seems to indicate a bit of self-doubt? Why the over reactions? It may help to keep in mind that your are not THE source for paintball information or posting, but ONE of the sources. In fact, you are not even the one I personally would choose as my TOP PICK, as if that matters, but I do consider you ONE of the top. So, deflate that ego a bit, and join the rest of the world. You will come across more intelligent, less pompous, and more secure in your abilities.

#4. How about this one for OFF TOPIC? Why is it that everyone is impressed with the Paintball tests (in rifling the barrels)? No offence Tom, but that test fails as an indicator. I could go on with all the reasons why, but the MAIN one is that it is NOT an accurate indication of anything.

You don’t build a spinning barrel and then use THAT information as your reason for saying the opposite of what the rest of the industry has already proven. Yes rifling does increase the accuracy of a paintball, but NOT as much as the total marker, the barrel is only ONE part of the equation. And since you will never have a marker that spins the barrel at some fantastic speed, the test is not scientific proof of anything. But I must admit you do impress those who like to look at NUMBERS and “scientific” looking equations. Remember the saying, “Numbers will tell you anything you WANT them to..”?

When you test a jet in a wind tunnel, do you make the jet do things it would not (or could not) do? “Okay boys, now talk the jet and turn it around backwards.” “But boss, it will never GO backwards!” “I know, but I want to prove a point about drag.”

To test this accurately, you need a lab. You need high-speed photography equipment. You need lazar marking devices. You simply need more stuff than would be both economically and rationally feasible. There are so many variables that worrying about ONE aspect in itself is actually self-defeating. If the USER feels that his/her accuracy is increased by one modification or another, and that increases their enjoyment of the game and actually winning games…. Isn’t that what matters?

When the day is over, “perception” is what manufactures are after with ANY product. Sure they want good quality, but most know that there are limits, and perception sells more products than quality does (sorry if I burst some bubble with that one). Take a look at Mini-Vans… “Our van scored the highest in all tests run!” But what they DON’T tell you is that Mini-Vans are STILL some of the most unsafe vehicles on the road. LOL ( I have a big family so I own one myself… LOL) And what about AOL? Everyone knows that it is one of the WORSE ISPs out there.. but they sure have a lot of customers. So people buy what the THINK is best for them, or because they simply need it, in spite of any shortcomings.

But then again, you are the one with the WARP FEED right? Why would you want anyone to think that barrel rifling could increase their chances of winning? You sell MASS and SPEED over accuracy. This is NOT a bad thing, but let’s be honest about it.

#5. Miscue: Good name. It describes what your post was. No offense is intended, but you were a bit off. You are correct, a good moderator would NOT delete my last post. It was not a FLAME, and it did not insult anyone. A moderator’s job is NOT to delete any post that they do not like or agree with. Their job is to keep things within guidelines. And my post was well within any guidelines for just about any message board. It was an opposing view, NOT something deemed as “deletion material”. So with that said, you only pointed out what I AM saying. The moderators ARE doing their jobs, THUS it can not be used as an excuse for “fight club”. And sorry Webby, you said that “fight club” was NOT designed to take care of these issues? Then why were these issue even brought up in its defense?

#6. “Fight Club”! Like I said, I have read your “great” club posts. All the information is OLD NEWS (and I am VERY new to the industry). Again, you impressed people who didn’t know any better. Great posts on oils? That information is available on just about any major Paintball Tech or News Site…. Ever stop in at Paintball Times? They not only have an extensive section on THAT topic, but barrels, paint, markers, fields, you name it. Am I advertising their site? HECK NO. What I am doing is showing one more source for information. Let’s be a little more honest please. And what is so special about ANY of those posts that could not be posted in General Population? Haven’t I been reading your “fight club” folks keep saying that you can mirror these posts in the General Areas? Then what is the point of the “fight club”? LOL

#7. I have GREAT respect for Tom. I have GREAT respect for all he has done for the industry. But I also know he is a businessman. HELLO! Don’t you all see that? You think he took over this board because he simply loved it and it needed a new owner? LOL Come on, it was a great business move. He acquired a ready-made target audience for his product. This was FANTASTIC, good job Tom!

So with that in mind, as with all things, there is going to be some mind games played. He will use this forum to showcase his business and products (even if you don’t see it). This is not a bad thing, it is GREAT! But those of you who have not figured it out yet, you need to open your eyes… new owner… same posters for the most part.. but NOT the same board. The underlying REASON for the board has drastically changed. This happens every time ONE company takes over a previously private (not corporate owned as this one is now) message board, club, etc. The SPIN changes.

#8. Please don’t let “clique” mentality take over. The comments made back to MY post did not even address any issues I brought up, they were a knee jerk reaction to “protect” others in the “in-crowd”. And isn’t that what some feared would happen with the “fight club’? You on one hand strut around bragging how open these boards are, and how you like discussion.. is that only for those in the “clique”? Is that only for those who bring up issues or opinions that don’t differ from yours?

Just the facts ma’am, just the facts. And none of the issues I mentioned were actually addressed in a rational manner, but in a defensive mode only. It brings to mind what happens when people say things that others do not like, but are the truth.

Example: Man walks up to rusted out Ford Pinto and says to the owner, “What a piece of ****.” And then he walks away. The owner of the Pinto then says, “What a jerk! He is just jealous.”

Keep in mind that the “jerk” walked to HIS decked out brand new Suburban and drove away. And the Pinto owner was just trying to make himself feel better by NOT addressing the fact that his car IS a piece of ****.

LOL I could go on all day (well actually I can’t, I have to get back to work), but please…. Don’t shoot the messenger. LOL My intent was NOT to attack anyone, but offer another person’s views. I like to think this is in keeping with the spirit of your boards.

Note: When I received a client in the Paintball Industry about 4 years ago (they have been in the industry now for 15 years), I listed off a bunch of things I felt the Paintball Industry (and they) would have to do to keep active and increase player growth. My client argued with me and said that I did not know the Industry and that it was different than other Industries… several years later… need I say it? “I told you so.” Business is business. Some will take this a “horn tooting”, but it is NOT. When it comes to business, I leave all emotions out, and deal with FACTS. It seems that with the “fight club”, this is not being done.

[Rooster]

For my closing argument (its going to take some serious willpower not to reply to any rebuttals, becuase I like to get the last word, but I will give it my best effort.)

I'm not willing to just take it on faith that this is all good. There are as many people that have posted against fight club as there are members in it. Could the challenge make people post better stuff? Maybe. On the other hand, why should it take a dollar on a string to get people to do something? Could it bring our best minds together in a place where they can influance the future of paintball? Possibly. On the other hand, it could segregate our community into the upperclass and the pleabs. Could lay-people gleen infomation from the round table discussion? Sure, and I probably will. On the other hand some people that wanted in are already resentful of the club and will learn nothing.

I see all the pros being tossed around and no one is considering the cons (or at least not letting us know that they are seriously considering the possible cons). I am sure that AGD understands the value of testing something before using it. Unfortunately, putting *Beta Test* on it and saying give it two weeks to grow on you doesn't really make it a test. Its here now so really the options are learn to like it or leave. I don't really like being put in that possition, and thats why this bothers me so much.

There were enough negative posts when this idea first came out that the plan should have gotten at least a little re-tooling. Since alot of people are upset that I only complain and never offer solutions, this is what I would have done.

1. Have an idea to get industry type people together to go over issues they think are important (and since they are in the industry, if they think the issues are important, they likely are.)

2. Main forum is getting crowded. If they post there, posts will get lost, ignored, etc. Two options exist, clean up the main forum, or make a new one. [now here, clearly the easier thing to do is to create a new forum, no extra modding needed, no need to try to force everyone to change the way they post. Is it the best thing? Thats kind of moot, the forum is here now, and I'm fairly sure it will stay.]

3. Who to gets to post there? Now heres where I fervently disagree with what has transpired in the last 24-36 hours. First of all, industry type people are great. Bill Mills, (im going to get some nicks wrong, bear with me) manike, RobAGD, JJBrookshire, JohnSousta, and Mahog (as a mag customizer). I even understand why you would want to toss the mods in there, Webby, Army, Miscue, and BlackVCG. That is a completely objective way of putting the club together. Either work for AGD or the site, or be a major paintball industry member (i know thats a tiny bit subjective, but im sure it could be worded so it wasn't).

To open up the floor to nominations is to open this club up to what all the nay-sayers feel it will become, a good-old-boys club. Thats where the problem lies, sooner or later, like it or not, someday it will become us and them. Has anyone considered what will happen when the majority of the people try so hard to get in, that you can't really justify keeping them out? Is it going to work to have flight club be where the majority of the membership is? And if you want to trim he membership, who do you trim? What if people try so hard to get in they show themselves to be better members than the mods, or the techs, or the industry personnel? Do you boot the old people, do you not let the new people in? Look at all the possibilities for bad feelings.

4. Ok, the board is up, people are posting, but there is some dissention in the ranks. People are expressing concerns, people are upset, people arn't sharing the vision. There are a couple options here. A, make people see the vision. B, the vision maybe isn't quite what we tought it was. If its B, you go to your pull-the-plug contingency. If its A, the most absolute wrong method of getting people to share your vision is to tell them that they are blind becuase they don't see it. You need to systematically rid them of their fears, and prove your vision to them. Its not good enough to say the RT can shoot an unheard of 26 bps per second without shootdown without getting the robot trigger puller out and proving it. So far the method of trying to settle everyone down has been to say "look, its good, even if you can't see it yet." Sure people are posting intellegent stuff right now, the forum is new, they want to prove why they were selected. Is it only working becuase the forum is new? Who can say with 100% certainty? You have to present it as something that is completely unselfish, and completely for the good of all members, even the occasional poster who mostly just reads to try to stay somewhat informed about his sport. Is that a very high bar? Sure it is. Families are very close knit organizations, and i think calling AO a family is appropriate. But, as most of us know, it takes just a few small waves to drive a family to dysfunction.

I personally think the flight club thing could have been handled better. Good idea, poor exocution. The family has changed, and dropping a forum won't change it back. Has it changed for the better? Maybe. I'm a pesimist by nature. I plan for the worst and I'm surprised by the best. Unfortunately when someone is planning something, they don't want to hear from the nay-sayers, it ruins their momentum.

Will I let this go and give it a try? Let me answer that with a question. Do I really have a choice? Its either like it or leave I guess. And in the grand sceme of things, compared to all the help I've recieved, this is a rather small thing to deal with. So yes I will be here and maybe someday I will become so used to the idea that I will accept it, and maybe a long time after that I will come to like it. Its human nature to adapt to something, and grow anxious when its changed.

And becuase of my fervent opposition I might be viewed as some type of piriah for the rest of my time here becuase i had the audacity to challenge the ideas of the powers that be. And then again I might just fade into the background again. Another face amoung the faceless crowd. But at least I wouldn't allow my self to be steam-rolled into something i didn't beleive in, and for a short time and even though it might have been in a negative light, I had an opinion and I wouldn't let it go even though others thought i was wrong. I can live with being wrong, but I can't live with not being heard.

I want to thank all of you for debating this intellegently, and without resorting to name calling or flames. I encourage those that still feel paasionatly about this issue to continue to debate it. The only way you will be heard is to speak up. I still have the upmost respect for the AO patriarchs, and I hope this works for them, becuase we are a family, and their failure is our failure. But their success is our success, and hope to continue to see many more in the future.

Good luck AGD, in everything.

::fade to black::


[This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 07-19-2001).]

[Rooster]

Ease up, shartley. Everyone has an opinion and one's is not more important than another's. You don't help your cuase by being mean or sarcastic. You help it by dillegently proving your points without resorting to name calling.

Lets keep it civil.

I'm done, i know i promised not to post, but one got posted while i was posting.

[shartley]

Rooster,
I agree. Thank you. But I must have missed something…

1) I never called anyone a name. I DID call “Webmaster” Webby, but only because it is quicker to type and I saw someone else call him that. As for putting up the idea that he may be self-doubting… sorry, that was a low blow. Needed? That is up to him to reflect on. If not, I am sure he will be self-confident and let it pass.

2) I never intended to be “mean spirited”. Ever look at court documents? Stating FACTS is never mean spirited. A bit dry, but never mean… LOL

3) I was only attempting to open eyes to different views. I love my Wife, I love my kids, I love my Parents, etc.. Do I agree with everything they say or do? Heck no. Do I tell them MY opinion? Heck yes. LOL

I am sorry if I contradicted AGD Dogma. I think they are a fantastic company with outstanding products. I also think they have great intentions. BUT, I am not naive about business.

I will however apologize for coming across as sarcastic. I personally like this style and it DOES grab attention. One of my favorite people is Dennis Miller… LOL No, I am not in his league, but I love the way shaking a cage a bit can cause dialogue.

I know that text does not show facial expressions (yah, I know I could use those silly faces that come with the board… but I feel it takes away from what is being said), so for everyone who reads my posts…. Unless I SAY I am upset, I am posting with a smile on my face, sitting back sipping on my cup of coffee. (You think this, or ANY board affects most of our lives? Does it pay your bills, feed your family, buy your paintball equipment, etc.? Look to who may actually pay their bills with it… if that is not YOU, why even get riled? LOL )

I like the saying: “Don’t sweat the simple stuff….. EVERYTHING is simple stuff.”