Warriors Super Guns

[AGD]

Here are some pics of custom guns we just finished for the Warriors. They are 1/2 lb lighter, intelifed the hopper, displaced battery, on/off switch etc. Don't ask for one they took 4 man days each.

AGD


http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/warrior05.jpg


http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/warrior02.jpg



[This message has been edited by AGD (edited 07-19-2001).]

[thei3ug]

*His pic works now*

[This message has been edited by BlackVCG (edited 07-19-2001).]

[magc68]

can u explain all this?

y is the valve outside the body longer now?

good idea for battery pack if u want it outta the way.

[This message has been edited by magc68 (edited 07-19-2001).]

[-§on-]

Those Would be very nice. I would like to see the blade trigger on one. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Paul La Rue]

What's with the Valve???

Come on Tom you've shown us, we NEED to know. :-)

Paul La Rue
http://www.pballcanada.com

[Maxd Out]

Hey, whats up with the valve? It looks like some crazy new prototype to me. I WANT IT!! 1/2 lb. is a serious difference. Congrats with the mods. Also, I love the battery on the bottom of the grip.

[DarkRipper]

Man does that look familiar!

http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
DR

------------------
Owned a PF mag in 96.
=)

[mykroft]

Ok it looks like the air chamber is MUCH larger in that valve, could this be the lower pressure valve Tom snerked about a while back, when he mentioned the projects he has in the works.


Snerk (v): To disclose inside information in order to annoy/intrigue fans, from Baen's Bar Forum, www.baen.com (http://www.baen.com)

------------------
Mykroft Holmes IV
------------------
My Mag:
CF11023
Classic Feed
16" CP .689
14" JnJ Stainless
Ring trigger
WGP Reg.
Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

[FeelTheRT]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by magc68:
can u explain all this?

y is the valve outside the body longer now?

good idea for battery pack if u want it outta the way.

[This message has been edited by magc68 (edited 07-19-2001).]</font>


because the body is shorter http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

[slayer]

why aren't they using warp feeds?

[banzaimf]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by slayer:
why aren't they using warp feeds?</font>


Out on a limb here... but a warp would have seriously obscured the changes cause it would be right in the middle of the pics

banzaimf


------------------
minimag #1321

[Tiny]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by slayer:
why aren't they using warp feeds?</font>

I'm wondering the same thing!

[Digital Me]

Paul says they are going to be low pressure.

I think they look just like Jeff's gun only without the cool black powerfeed or rubber front grip.

AGD should just get over it and have a Jeff series paintball gun. Instead they keep selling us these heavy guns and only people who have ties to machine shops end up with the cool cut down version.

D.

[gimp]

Am I the only person that likes the battery pack as a grip? I think it gives it added stability. I dont think the valve is any longer, it just looks bigger. The current valve doesn't have as big of a circumference. It does in the back on the regulator, but it gets smaller where it goes into the body. There is no body here, so it doesn't step down. I cant tell if it's a low pressure valve. For the air chamber to be a lot bigger would you have to move the on/off valve? Or is the air chamber in front of the valve, I forget, then it would probably be pretty easy. I'll shutup about the valve, I'm losing myself.

It looks like the back of the grip has been milled down to fit a smaller hand too. Peices of the trigger frame are gone, and chunks off the body rail. Even the emag logo is gone up front. That probably weighs close to nothing.

It looks cool. I want one. Are there any other, non cosmetic upgrades? Like, can they shoot any faster?


------------------
Choads.net (http://www.choads.net) EricPitts.com (http://www.ericpitts.com)

[Digital Me]

That front grip is what keeps me from using my new E-Mag as much as I should. I love AGD but that grip is just goofy. I need to find someone who can mill mine up. I bought it with the intention of getting it to Jeff, bu the doesn't do custom work.

If Jeff is building them I guarantee they shoot faster! His personal guns rip and even the RT's that he has built smoke.

Maybe Jax will stop sucking and make the cut just once this year with these!

D.

[Allen]

Jax are in the top 8 in standings- or were last time I checked. They were higher than the All A's, and playing in the pro division in the NPPL is no chump change either...
Standings according to Paintball 2Xtremes.

------------------
"Don't spend so much on parts that you can't afford to play."

[Jerky]

[message deleted]

Snide remarks and attacks are not welcome here.

-Robert

[This message has been edited by RobAGD (edited 07-20-2001).]

[DJTmRave3]

Warriors have had some change ups in their roster. It is hard to play Pro NPPL level when you don't really know the guy next to you. Give them this year as a learning year, then LOOK OUT!!!! Warriors are some stand up guys. Watched the win the Nashville NPPL last year.

P.S. Hope Larry V. gets feeling better (Just in case any of the warriors are reading this and want to tell him)

------------------
Jay Austin
Team Rave

My paint...it looks good on you!!!!

www.wolfhillpaintball.net
www.paintballcyberstore.com
www.visionitwebsystems.com
www.airgun.com

[MagDog68]

I know you said don't ask for one Tom....BUT can I have one?!?!? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...LoL.

Could you tell us how you cut the Main Body down like that in order to expose the valve? Is it possible to do that with a standard mag body safely? I guess you would have to cut a cresent to leave the body underneath the valve.

How about some schematics Tom!?!?!

Looks really sweet. Who said you can't customize a Mag???

~Fred

[This message has been edited by MagDog68 (edited 07-19-2001).]

[Digital Me]

If you look at the NPPL standings, the warriors have yet to make the cut this season.

Hopefully these guns will at least get them all back to using mags.

Yes, they've had some roster changes - but those have all been Pro players added to their roster! Kevin. Huffy. Chris. All Pros who weren't on the Nashville team.

D.

[Support Mag]

well Tom, i'kll hand it to ya. you've pumped out yet another killer mod. 1/2 a pound is a major accomplishment. my mag is the lightest gun on our team, and to be able to cut a half a pound from an e-mag certainly took some thinking. great job with the new battery placement. just adds even MORE great setups. keep up the great job guys!



------------------
Classic Feed
CF 61270
LAPCO AutoSpirit
Custom Brass
A.A. Black Ice Reg.
Benchmark Double Trigger
Gas Through T-Stock

"Sure you've got ROF. But if you really want someone out, you have to go get them out..."

[magc68]

i cant really tell but what i can see i dont think the valve isnt any longer than before. jsut that the body is shorter and the od of the valve stay larger for a longer portion of the valve. on the other hand agd would only do this for a persormance reason in my opinion. if u recall the prototype feed pics he blurred out the rear portion of the valve. it may have been this new idea he was trying therfore didnt want us to see. the body rail was also milled in the proto pics as well. the milling was identical to the milling seen on this pic as well. i think it was this valve that they were trying to keep us from seeing. y else would they blur out the valve in the proto pics. the question is what performance increase does this give? since all i can see is the outside it is hard to tell what it actually does. any ideas?



[This message has been edited by magc68 (edited 07-20-2001).]

[mykroft]

Look at the forward seam on the valve, where the powertube screws onto the valve, it looks like the power tube assembly, instead of being a flat end witha tube, also adds about 1cm to the chamber, the rest of the valve looks like it's simply not turned down to fit in the body.

------------------
Mykroft Holmes IV
------------------
My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.

VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA, Benchy 1x Chrome, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

[magc68]

thanks mykroft
i do see that and that is the only diffrnece i see as u mentioned. is this an addition to the chamber or is it something else we dont knwo about?

[Chris]

Call me crazy, but I think that Rev. has been modded. Looks like you could have put a warp wheel in it??? I dunno, but what is with the black box on the Rev?

-Chris

[steveg]

For your viewing pleasure
<img src="http://communities.msn.ca/_Secure/0LwAAABYRVZa8ntiG4GhUOus805x!ChA6j3VRMjheoNrICeqNz UdKPw1jyz1643rdg6yogX1LDEQ/compare.jpg" width=423 height=256 border=0>

[Jax-Warriors]

Thanks for all of your encouraging words.
we ar going to test the guns this weekend and will let all of you know how they perform
thanks



------------------
PGP
Jax-Warriors

[X-Plosive]

hey I live in florida too, maybe I'll come up sometime and borrow a gun or two http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif *wink* *wink*

------------------
Taking mags apart is fun, its even more fun when you don't know what you're doing

Ohh yeah and Tunaman sorry for all the stress and all the things I've broken.

*If corn oil is made of corn, what is baby oil made of?*

[Digital Me]

These guns don't have warp feeds on them because Jacksonville doesn't play with Warp Feeds. In all fairness, PGP sometimes does.

The only other big names that play with warps are Bob Long, Mark from Aftershock, and Jeff from Farside. That's about it.

And whoever said Jax was ahead of the All A's in points in the NPPL is wrong. I just checked on warpig. The A's have beaten out Jax in every single event this year. They can't be behind.

D.

[Blue 88]

looks like the valve body just isnt milled down. but umm, what exactly it that thing between the valve and the body?

[mykroft]

Chris: off hand, it's a new cct board for intellifeed, possibly a more powerfull servo, hey has anybody put one of those hi-torque R/C servos into a rev yet?

------------------
Mykroft Holmes IV
------------------
My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.

VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA, Benchy 1x Chrome, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

[MajorDamage]

Why no warp, why the big valve!?

------------------
GO HERE!: <A HREF="http://wsnonline.8k.com" TARGET=_blank>http://wsnonline.8k.com

</A>The Witherspoon News! Sign the guestbook! It better than sunglasses, and twice as fragrent!

[a person]

how did you put the forgrip on there? can you do that with every emag?(i dont know, dont have one, probably a stupid question) also, Mr.Kaye or any AGD tech who did these mods, could you please explain why you did what ever you did to the valve and what benefits it has? or is it just cosmetics, sort of a new look for AGD? will the new bodies, battery pack setup, and intelifeed, be mass produced and available to the public? In AGD Europe, is there going to be a specific date when the new Modular Bodies are going to be released, and if so can you tell us when? This go for the same for the new .45 AGD Frame? boy i feel like a reporter.

[keebler]

is it just me or is that ugly? that intelifeed wire looks unreliable. what if it got shot, it would probably get ripped out of the gun.

[chupamipito]

yes, that gun does look awful familar to jeffs personal kick *** mags....hmmm..interesting....it seems to me that AGD should start letting Jeff do custom work to all these heavy POS emags they are selling, why show us if we cant have one TOM?? just to show us what CAN be done?? i have shot jeffs personal gun, and i will be the first to say that i HATE mags, but LOVE all of Jeffs guns!! if Jeff did the work on these, Jax may actually be able to shot 10 alls before chopping!!

[suckmyfatangel]

holy hell these guns are hella cool!! i have to agree with digital me on all of his points, jeff does outstanding work and should be allowed to do work through AGD, if not, u know how much money he could make jsut by working on mags?? who else in the country does?? thats what i thought....

[AGD]

Before this gets out of hand I should point out Jeff had very little to do with these guns. The custom parts were prototyped by me and Eric my engineer. The rail, grip and valve are stock components. I cut down the bodies and did the intelifeed mods myself.

AGD

[Jerky]

Did you proto them by looking at Jeff's gun that you guys posted here a few months ago?

Jeff cut down at RT and you made an RT Pro years later. Then he cut down an E-mag and you made the Jax Super Guns.

It just looks like he is one step ahead of the game. Even if he "had very little to do" with these guns, he still paved the way. Give credit where credit is due.

[hitmanng]

Sorry Tom, I regret to inform you that you must only come up with entirely original ideas. I also regret to inform you that you must come up with them before anyone else and not build on any good ideas out there. I know you have good employees that do silly things like move batteries around and build modular bodies, but you are not allowed to be a part of any of that unless you come up with the idea first.
Sorry Tom. Those are the new rules. Try to stick with them. By the way, did you think of the tank thing first or someone else. Maybe you can make a few of those.
LOL.
Hitmanng

Warning, any sarcasm found in the previous post was placed there intentionally. Any resemblence between actual names or events related to AGD are also intentional and used only when necessary to direct the sarcasm.

------------------
"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."

[This message has been edited by hitmanng (edited 07-21-2001).]

[MagMan5446]

I wuvvvvvvvvvvv you AGD. If you loved me, then you would send me one of those, wouldn't you?

------------------
When you grab a hold of me,
Tell me that I'll never be set free.
But I'm a parasite,
Creep and crawl I step into the night.
Two pints of booze,
Tell me are you a Badfish too?

Sublime
2.22.68-5.25.96
R.I.P. Bradley James Nowell

[shartley]

Nice marker, thought about anodizing it?

I have to agree with some of the other posts here though on a few issues.

1) The exposed wire… looks cheap AND is a breakage issue if hit. Were you all half asleep?

2) I also dislike the front grip (if only from a cosmetic standpoint). It has always looked like a dog chew toy to me. Ever thought of changing that?

3) When making a new product, or new ANYTHING, an exhaustive search for patents, copyrights, and even just unregistered use is crucial. Most of the time this process is done by people specifically trained FOR that kind of work. This is because even if you came up with an idea without any outside stimulus, if it WAS done before you, you CAN’T take credit for it. Even if it was done and NOT registered, it is STILL covered by Copyright and Patent laws as long as the unregistered use can be documented and verified.

Tom, YOU know this (or darn well should). I know this modification is not a “production” thing, but being that you are not just some back yard hobbyist, it surprised me that since you KNEW Jeff made either the exact same modifications or darn near close, you don’t admit its influence or at least coincidence. Poor form.

Trying to slip under the radar? Come on, you are too big of a man for that.

However, on another note: Is there any reason why the elbow is clear (actually opaque white)? This along with the exposed wire just makes the overall look “slapped together” in feel. If there is a reason, (besides “It was what we had laying around”) I would be interested in hearing it. If not, might I suggest putting on a black elbow?

This would make a much smoother transition between the black hopper and the chrome body, as well as get rid of the cheap look of the current elbow in comparison to the other parts of the marker. And if this marker was anodized to match your teams colors… WOW

I would have to say, good start…. How about bringing it all together?

[st6212]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AGD:

Before this gets out of hand I should point out Jeff had very little to do with these guns. The custom parts were prototyped by me and Eric my engineer. The rail, grip and valve are stock components. I cut down the bodies and did the intelifeed mods myself.

AGD</font>

Guys,

With the last few posts before this one I'm posting now...people are putting Tom down for his post. I think people have misunderstood him.

I think he was answering the few posts above his, one or two people asked if Jeff worked on these markers. Tom simply answered that, saying that Jeff took no part in working on these super guns.

In no way did he say that all the mods were his ideas.

I think some people owe Tom an apology.

[This message has been edited by st6212 (edited 07-21-2001).]

[shartley]

st6212,
No offense is intended, but I think you missed the spirit of people’s critique. I don’t think anyone had any confusion as to the fact that Jeff did NOT work on the marker. In fact, after going back and reading all the posts again, I can clearly see that people DON’T think Jeff actually worked on the marker.

What IS said, is that the Marker looks so similar to Jeff’s work that the coincidence appears to be more than that, “coincidence”. And there is nothing wrong with that. Most of the great things we have today are directly from people taking someone’s great idea(s) and doing it better, or making it affordable for the masses.

What people found displeasing is that such a noticeable similarity is being passed off as a non-issue. Thus the “give credit where credit is due” comes into play. What if you designed a car that looked SWEET, but after doing so you found out that it looked almost exactly like the latest corvette? Does that take away from your great work? Heck no, it was just done before.

Now, add to that if you came up with designs consistently BEFORE someone released similar designs, but that other person was a big company? Wouldn’t you feel slighed, or even potenitlaly ripped off? I am not saying this is the case with Jeff and his work, but it IS odd. And “perception” is a powerful thing. And businesses (such as Tom and AGD) have to pay a bit closer attention to “perceptions”.

Noone was attacking Tom, just pointing out that his denial of any “Jeff” influence seemed a bit… well, you know. And should be he held to a higher standard than the rest of us? You bet! Anyone in a position higher than most is ALWAYS held to higher standards… or should be.

[Magsrule3]

How do u get the intellifeed into the revy? Will that intellifeed be like the ones on the 2x frames?

------------------
-68 Classic Automag
-SP Proggresive barrel
-Lapco drop forward
-PMI gas through
-12 volt revolution
-Crossfire 68CI 3K Stubby
-Microline fittings

[AGD]

Ok I give credit where credit is due. Jeff made the first gun that these are based on. The Warriors saw his and wanted duplicates. The Warrior guns do not have as many exposed wires as Jeffs gun.

AGD

[shartley]

Thanks Tom. You showed great class.

[magman007]

dont worry tom we love you and your product. or atleast i do!

------------------
automag:(verb)1to eliminate from a paintball game, 2to be better than a spray and prey player with a cocker or angel, 3to kick some major arse

[Paintball_Foo]

^ wants to marry Tom, but on a note those gun's do look a little slapped together but they are 'protypes' see go easy on tom

------------------
Team Wannabeez (http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/teamwanna/index.html)

Msteele200@earthlink.net

[RobAGD]

Having shots jeffs gun, and seen it, it's not all that. It works for Jeff and he has the resources to do what he liked to the gun. I personbally liked what he did to the grip frame. ( Removing the grip bumb, the finger grove mod etc ) but he gun was a cut down Automag Rail, and it was a exersise in what HE wanted in a gun.

AGD mde the Emag with extra material so peopel COULD do work on them to make them lighter and mill neat snitz into the parts.


Jax saw and linked Jeffs gun and ask for a copy of it for them. Tom and Eric put a lot of wokr into OTHER aspects of that gun that you all know nothing about. The front grip isnt NEW its an old *** VL Grip big whoop. You can cut the battery connector off your Emag and pop the hole out and mount a grip with a STOCK rail, nothing special nothing extra needed.

Personally I like the Stock look better some dont. To call the Jax guns copies of Jeffs would be a discredit to the work TK and Eric put into the new parts of that gun.

So when you attack Tom's creditablity you attack all of the good work he has done in testing and product devel. So go jump in a lake.

As for the milk white elbow, that's the stock AGD elbow that ships with new guns, so it was just "around" for pictures to be taken for this forum.

BTW - I would also like to point out that typically unless otherwise stated in a contract, any work done for a company by an empolyee while working for the company becomes company properity. So technically speaking that "design" belongs to AGD.

-Robert

[shartley]

Robert,
Thanks for the info about the elbow. I was hoping that was what it was. How about the exposed wire? Couldn’t it at a minimum be secured to the marker? Heck, even zip stripping it would be better than keeping it as it is. LOL I am sure you guys have thought about this issue as well….. Like to share your solution with us?

I would like to make a clarification for you however…. I don’t think anyone was making an attack on Tom’s credibility… just the “appearance” of it. You may not want to admit it, but when people make statements about the “look” of a marker, and deep down, the way this new one looks is DIRECTLY caused by someone else’s work (other than who were stated as its direct creators)… it is best to just say so.

I am sure Tom knew exactly what, at least I, was saying. People made the comments… and Tom made a post dismissing any involvement of Jeff or his work. This was not exactly accurate. Tom knew this, and he rectified the situation. End of story.

As for employees working for a company, and who has actual rights to a “design”, “system”, “idea”, etc… you are correct. However, there seems to be a bit more to this than that. Legalities? You bet. Who did what for whom? Who did what for whom at what time, and on who’s behalf? See? Little things matter in big ways.

Example:
If Jeff was working for AGD, and/or on behalf of AGD, and the design was in direct conjunction with the aforementioned conditions, the design IS AGD domain. However, even if Jeff was working FOR AGD, but not directly on behalf of AGD when he came up with any said design… guess what… it is NOT AGD domain.

LOL I know, it can get confusing. But I am just making a point. And that point is, that simply being an employee of a company does not automatically give the company rights to ALL work done by that employee during the time of employment. To think so is a drastic oversimplification, and just not legal fact.

And if Jeff was an employee of AGD when he came up with the design, AND the design was part of his work done on direct behalf of AGD… what is the big deal, and why not simply state so? After all, YOU guys did the work, right?

I think what stuck in some folk’s craws, was the seemingly underhanded way that the inspiration for the current marker was dismissed. THIS caused the “perceptions” that I wrote about earlier. And this could have been avoided quite simply.

I know you all think the world of Tom, he is a great guy, but I think even HE knew what had happened. And please don’t try to make the Posters feel as if THEY did something wrong by wanting things to be said. It looks like people have great respect for EVERYONE, Tom, Jeff, all you guys… they just wanted recognition for those who deserved it. And frankly, if the inspiration came from Jeff’s work (as it DID) no pride would have been lost by saying so from the beginning.

When all is said and done, you guys did the actual work, YOU get the spotlight. But even when customizing cars, inspirations often come from other manufacturers, or customizers… but THEY don’t feel threatened that their work will go unnoticed by saying that some other guy sparked the idea for their masterpiece(s). Neither should you.

Remember… “perception” is a two edged sword.

Tom did the right thing. And I don’t think (or at least I hope) that HE does not feel that his actual credibility was attacked, just the image created, but then fixed.


[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 07-21-2001).]

[Lester]

- not sure if anyone else noticed... but look at the tank it looks different. Is that one of the new 4500psi tanks?

[ReTroMagBoy]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Lester:
- not sure if anyone else noticed... but look at the tank it looks different. Is that one of the new 4500psi tanks?</font>

yes i noticed that as well, the fiber wrapping looks like the ones seen on 4500 tanks. Hopefully it is!

[sovereign82]

bill gates came up with his operating system while working for ibm...but instead of paying him a top salary, they let him start his own company...

sov82~

[Jerky]

I guess all this brings up a good question or two.

What "new" things were done to these guns that Rob was talking about?

Does Jeff work on the development side of AGD? If Jax wanted their guns modled after his gun, then maybe that's where he should be.

jerky

[fenris69]

yknow...im thinking you could put a straight microline fitting into the hopper, then run the wires through it, either straight into the grip, or into a 45/90 degree elbow screwed into the grip at some point. be a cheapo way to protect it.

[deweasel697]

awesome guns.

[DarkRipper]

Personally, all this wrangling about who designed it and who owns the idea is just beating a dead horse. The real people who need to know or care are Jeff and Tom, not us.

It's AGD's business, not ours. Arguing the point is an exercise in futility that makes you look like a nitpicking fruitloop.

MHO, of course.

DR

[Digital Me]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by DarkRipper:


It's AGD's business, not ours. Arguing the point is an exercise in futility that makes you look like a nitpicking fruitloop.

MHO, of course.

DR</font>

I was actually thinking the same thing about Airgun. Notice how neither of the people who work at airgun actually had anything nice to say about Jeff's guns?

Rob and AGD both tried to say he didn't influence these new guns and then Rob actually said he didn't like what Jeff has done. Jax Warriors sure like it. That's why these guns were made.

I would think that Airgun would support each other more. It is disapointing considering I've always liked how they did things.

D.

[suckmyfatangel]

i think that it all comes down to making some people look better than others. Its obvious that tom wants to go around thinking to himself that he is like god of the world and no one is smarter than him and he comes up with everything, when in fact there are others at the company that deserve some time in the sun as well....oh yea....whos name is going to be on the superbolts tom?? thats right, not the poeple that designed them and made them...