AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

[gam-e]

i used to be 100% AGD, in fact i was probably more than 100%. i have owned every type of marker AGD has manufactured, and i have come to a sad truth.

firstly, i would like to say that AGD makes realiable marker, they are consistent, and affordable. Until recent upgrades and the new Emags.

i just have a few questions to ask, and i really don't expect an answer from Tom or anyone else for that matter, im just venting.


1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."


2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?


3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.

like i said, i dont expect answers, and no it wasn't some lemon marker, it was tip top shape, and sadly enough the guy was totally enthralled with it.

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

on a lighter note: Tom, i heard rumors here about the 2004 emags comming with the chord milling on them... i know colin (the guy to does the milling) and he's a great guy, and i think he deserves an opportunity such as what ive heard. he does quality work, and doesn't make too much money doing it. he's paintball to the core, and a great guy.



guys... i like AGD, im just really confused about recent changes they've made (they should have, and much more COULD HAVE been done long ago)

on with the flames....actuall well thought out rebutals would be appreaciated

Dion

[Load SM5]

The LX bolt helps the marker to be more forgiving when you do shortstroke and the bolt hits a half-fed ball. It is true that AGD markers before LX had a faster bolt speed than most and that made them harder on the really brittle or crappy paints. Lot's of people had no chooping problems with the old level 7 mags because they did'nt shortstroke and rarely had chopping problems.


A lot of people did'nt like the twist lock barrels as they were generally more expensive. People demanded threaded barrels and so AGD met that demand. Now you have a choice which barrel style you want. Plus a twist lock barrel would'nt have worked as well with the removable breech.

Not sure what your problem was with the kick. Mine is quite a bit more reactive. Maybe the input pressure was too low?

If you want a true marker then there is only one choice...whatever marker you like to play with. If you don't want a mag anymore and want to play with a cocker, then so be it. But that does'nt mean it's for everyone. Hell, as long as you're playing who cares what you shoot?

[oldsoldier]

As far as the chopping goes, the LX is more forgiving than without. Thus, if you shortstroke, the bolt will bounce off the ball, not continue through it.
The reactivity of the Xvalve is the same as an emag, or RTP valve. It is just made of aluminum, thats all. They didnt change the internal characteristics at all.
I think, and there was a thread somewhere...the reason Tom went with cocker threads was because it is getting harder to get barrel maunfacturers to make the twist lock, and, people here were screaming for cocker threads. PErsonally, I was against the idea at first; till I bought an X. Now, I enjoy the fact that any barrel makes makes cocker threaded barrels, and it doesnt cost anything extra.


EDIT: heh, load beat me to the punch.

[Brak]

i dont give a crap about what you said. but saying there is only one true marker, and at that, saying that its an autococker, is probably one of the sutpidest things ive ever heard in my life. take a look at intimidators, matrices, angels, bushmasters, and impulses (aside from mags) and tell me that they are inferior to an autococker. go on, i dare you.

[gam-e]

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.


i already did =)

[tony3]

tom said awhile ago that the older rt's are more reactive then the new valves, he has no idea why. Also reactivity varies, gun to gun

[Recon by Fire]

Everybody has their preferences, but Autocockers? Half the people buy them just because they think it is cool to watch the back block move. I could have bought the best, top of the line Autococker available, I think I made the right choice :)

[Frank (the spank)]

Originally posted by gam-e

1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."


And theres only 1 way to chop a ball?

Short stroke = Chop
Slow hopper + rapid fire = Chop
Rapid fire + balls bobbeling in the ball stack = Chop

Level X solved just about all those issues. WELL worth the money on my humble opnion.



Originally posted by gam-e
2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?

I think Tom thought it was a better route, having the breech all part of the barrel SEEMS like a good idea. Back then Automags dominated the tourney scene, so barrel companies had no problem making twist lock barrels, now.. mags aren't so popular, companies don't want to make twist locks anymore so.. Tom went with the standard.



Originally posted by gam-e
3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.

As well as no shootdown. That was a problem for me since I get on my trigger a lot, and it sucked when I would throw a rope of paint and they would fall short of the bunker I was shooting at so I had to slow down to make my shots reach.

Lighter gun, lighter trigger pull are all good things. the RT is very big, but you gotta turn up the output on your tank.


Originally posted by gam-e
there is only one choice--autococker.

buwahahaha.. I have always hated autoclunkers and always will. The thing is a friggen steam powered choo choo train.. you pull the trigger and every part of the gun goes "chugga chugga chugga!". Have fun timing your cocker and working on it between games. Every team member that shoots a clunker is always fiddling with it, which is part of paintball.. it's fun to teak with your gear, but sometimes it will piss you off.

I shoot a ULE E-Mag, and I am about to buy an Angel Speed for a 2nd gun. Why? the problem i have with mags is.. they're boring to me now. I mean.. I never have to tune it, tweak it, fix it.. I know the entire gun like the back of my hand since I've shot mags when they first came out and have owned about 3 original mags. I want something different. And When my Angel Speed starts to pisss me off with problems my other teammates have, I'll switch to the E-Mag.

Hey.. we all need change.. but it's not the mags or AGD's fault. (sounds like I'm breaking uo with a girl)

I have used mags for a long time and want to try something different. Instead of breaking up with my baby.. I'm gonna cheat on her and have two guns, lol

[Jerhew]

i don't think this was emphasized enough...
your output pressure must've been too low...
crank that thing up to 1000psi and you'll see a reactive trigger..no question about it

frankly saying the autococker is the only true marker...
you're pretty much just exploiting your own ignorance...

oh and by the way
when the level 10 cocker comes out... let me know

[BlackVCG]

Okay, please for the love of God explain to me how a gun that was converted from a pump and uses 60's technology is "The Only Choice".

You had credibility with me until you made that statement. I mean, I like Cockers and how they shoot and all, but they have to be one of the pathetically engineered guns on the market.

[Jerhew]

yeah um....
there's a much better design for a cocker....
it's called a palmer typhoon/blazer
and even that still is basically an automated pump gun

[AdrenalineMag]

when will some people learn. the perfect gun is.... dum dum dum (drum roll i think...) dah dah.....TAH DAH! the perfect gun is whats perfect for YOU. paintball markers are all personal preference. but since this is a mag forum you will find alot of people that say the mag is the perfect gun. gam-e more power to you with that cocker thing.

cold and silent... soiled face, i will wash it all away...... oops got sidetracker... g2g

[Mav D MagMan]

Originally posted by gam-e
i used to be 100% AGD, in fact i was probably more than 100%. i have owned every type of marker AGD has manufactured, and i have come to a sad truth.

firstly, i would like to say that AGD makes realiable marker, they are consistent, and affordable. Until recent upgrades and the new Emags.

i just have a few questions to ask, and i really don't expect an answer from Tom or anyone else for that matter, im just venting.


1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."


2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?


3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.

like i said, i dont expect answers, and no it wasn't some lemon marker, it was tip top shape, and sadly enough the guy was totally enthralled with it.

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

on a lighter note: Tom, i heard rumors here about the 2004 emags comming with the chord milling on them... i know colin (the guy to does the milling) and he's a great guy, and i think he deserves an opportunity such as what ive heard. he does quality work, and doesn't make too much money doing it. he's paintball to the core, and a great guy.



guys... i like AGD, im just really confused about recent changes they've made (they should have, and much more COULD HAVE been done long ago)

on with the flames....actuall well thought out rebutals would be appreaciated

Dion

I agree with a lot of what the other folks said, so listen to them as well but:

1. Bolt hits too hard - Wasn't it actually the hyper bolt cycle speed that TK accredited to a lot of chops/blown balls? The next ball in the stack was being damaged by the bolt as it recocked, and by moving the bolt slower through the breech area they eliminated that problem?

2. Barrels - Customer choice, like everyone else said. But I do think the twistlock makes a neat sword sound when you pull it out really fast. Schwing ;)

3. X-Valve - What do you mean by two round burst vs. three round? That you couldn't pull the trigger as fast when snap shooting?

Unless you are all running different trigger frames, I don't really understand how that could change all that much (from 3 balls to 1...)

One choice? Autococker dude? A few of these guys said some harsh things, and I do enjoy the joke that it's a pump marker, made semi, turning electro but it is a fine marker.

But it's not for everyone, hand one to a kid for his first day of play and it will be neat for him. He'll shortstroke but that can happen on a mag as well, not a real big deal, he just don't know how to pull the trigger...

But give it to him to keep, and how long's it going to take for him to get lost in the maze of overcomplicatedness? (Yes it's a word now).

It may be the marker for you, that's great. But it ain't for *everyone* That's like saying we should all drive Honda squishcars...

Mav

[gam-e]

Originally posted by BlackVCG


You had credibility with me until you made that statement.

ouch. trust that i didn't intent to compromise my character by expressing my opinions.

many apologies for saying something that urked you.

honestly man, thats pretty shallow to lose respect for someone for something so insignifigant




to those who calmly brought forth their opinions: you have my gratitude. i will admit that i was thinking rather closed-minded, but i will not apologize for the statements, because if they weren't made i wouldn't have been exposed to these other opinions.

so sarcasm can't be felt online, i know, i do like autocockers, i use a dark cocker now, never chopped, sips air, i really like it. i'm not commanding everyone here to buy one, so please all of you bi-polar maniacs. chill out.

thanks again for the HELPFULL insight (you know who you are)
Dion

[Jerhew]

well since ya put it that way... ;)

really you couldve made your point and got some explanations without rehashing the bad blood between mags and cockers(even though its mostly light hearted at this point:rolleyes: :D )

[FooTemps]

Dude... no way... lol

1. AGD came out with level 10 for a reason. It wasn't to say "our bolts move too fast". It was to make mags more forgiving during short strokes and misfeeds. Cockers, imps, timmies, angels, even matricies have anti chop measures. It could be lower bolt pressure, ace, cops, etc. Any marker can suffer from chopping due to slow feeding and ball bobble. The mag didn't have any solutions to that so AGD came out with the best solution possible, LEVEL 10.

2. Going from mag to cocker threads was a good choice. Do you know why? AGD couldn't get mag threads made by many manufacturers. Also, threaded barrels were the only way to get xmag modular breeches to work. The best thread choice is naturally autococker due to their popularit. It's meerly a marketing to supply what is most popular.

3. The xvavle has as much reactivity as an rt, retro, or emag valve. It's just all aluminum. Either the mag's reactivity was lowered or it had its input pressure dialed down.

4. Okay, the "if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker," is really really dumb. Do you know why? There are tons of true markers. They are:
Talons
Spyders
Piranhas
Other spyder clones
Mags
Cockers
Bushies
Impies
Timmies
Tippies
Angels
Custom guns
Defiants
Phantoms
Nelsplat 007s
VM68s
and tons more

Do you get my point? They are all truely markers. They fire paint and run off air and have other features to classify themselves as true paintball markers. If you're trying to say cockers are the best. Then why don't you say "I think cockers are the best", and save the lame lines for something else. Seriously, that was horrible. lol

[AutomagRT1483]

Cockers...bah! Granted they do look good on the outside. If there was "only one true" marker, then tell me why I own 13 "true" markers? I do own a cocker, but it only works when it wants to work. Frankly, I'm begining to believe that it's possessed by the devil but thats my opinion of my cocker. My mags work all the time. Let me guess you had one bad experience with a mag so your going to flame it and AGD now. Get a grip on reality here...times change, markets change, markers change...end of story. Get over it already. For anyone who thinks I'm an AGD brown-noser(showed up in the PSP Chicago thread Lamby started), well guess what...I AM! I never flame the companies that build the markers that I own, cuz I realize that all the problems that happen with them are the DIRECT result of my using them.

BTW...Anybody know how or where I can get a pump kit for my cocker???

[BlackVCG]

ouch. trust that i didn't intent to compromise my character by expressing my opinions.

many apologies for saying something that urked you.

honestly man, thats pretty shallow to lose respect for someone for something so insignifigant

Respect and credibility are two different words.

It's not insignificant when it's directed at the company I work for and support. I don't have a problem with people gripping about AGD at all. Hell, I have plenty of gripes with the way AGD does things. I just have a problem with people making unsubstantiated/arrogant claims to jump on the bandwagon that has developed in light of recent events.

Disclaimer: The aforemenionted statements are not all directed at gam-e. It is my own personal rant relating to the intentions of this thread.

[Doc Nickel]

Okay, you have some valid points. Here's my take on them:


1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong.

At the time, this was the truth. Or the best understanding of the truth.

Back then, some players could whale on a 'Mag with no burps, chops or short strokes, while others would chop and flub every third shot. Often a close look would show the player had over-adjusted the trigger rod, or simply wasn't pulling it fast enough.


So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain[t] too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."

The assumption here is that AGD knew all along what the problem was. This is not the case- keep in mind that up until very recently (and that means through about a decade of Automag production) it was assumed the "powerfeed" redirected blowback gasses- IE, the bolt would open before the ball left the barrel, allowing a burp of gas to come back up the feed port.

This does, actually, happen, but is so miniscule an effect as to be easily ignored. Rather, what was later learned was that the bolt moved so fast it literally "smacked" the underside of the second ball in line.

Back in the old days of thick-shell paints like ZAP, Pro-Ball and Nelson Challenger, all the 'smack' did was just toss the ball back up the feed port. The early fix was to make the feed neck over twice as long as normal, so the ball stack would push down harder. The later innovation was the so-called powerfeed.

Tom's actual analysis (still somewhat unique in our industry) finally showed the true cause- the "smacked" ball got cracked, then when fired would blow out. Not a "chop" per se`, but blowout.

Once that was known, development could focus on solving the problem- not "band-aiding" it with things like powerfeeds.

This became even more important with the development in the past few years of the ultra-thin-shell "tourney paints". Players demanded a paint that wouldn't bounce, so shells got thinner. Some paints will crack if you look at 'em crosseyed, and they simply couldn't survive the Automag's high bolt speed. This was, in my opinion, a large part of the dropoff in 'Mag popularity over the past three or four years.


2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!"

Again, keep in mind when the 'Mag hit the market. Back in 1990, just having a removable barrel was an innovative option! There was no such thing as a near-standard thread like the 'Cocker. Each semi had it's own threads (VM, Illustrator, Pro-Am) or even no threads at all (68 Special.)

Being able to remove the barrel to clean it was a huge advantage at times. Point in fact, the Smart Parts "spiral ported rifling" was actually originally developed to make a barrel "self squeegeeing"- if you broke a ball, the next shot down the barrel would "squeege" the paint into the holes and air pressure would blow it out.

Well, we all know how well that worked, and the Patent on the holes (note how very early AA barrels had the holes very close together) tells a different story.

But anyway, if a removable barrel was good, a very quickly removable barrel was even better. And again, there was no "standard" to fit to the gun, so why not go with the twist-lock?

Over the years the WGP thread has evolved into the de-facto standard barrel thread, but by that time there were thousands and thousands of 'Mags out there, and most manufacturers were making barrels to fit, so there was no real reason to change.


Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?

Only with the complete redesigns of the gun- IE, the SFL/X-Mag bodies, was the thread used- By this point, of course, the WGP thread is now the unofficial standard. The ULEs are an offshoot of the Sluggos, which was itself an answer to the long-asked-for 'Mag body that can be milled and annoed "just like all those 'Cockers".


guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

Anyone who flames for this is a boor. However, it's an opinion, not a fact.

There are those that like 'Cockers. There are those that like 'Mags. One team is playing top-level NPPL with E-frame Spyders.

You like 'Mags? That's fine. You like Angels? That's fine too. Have a thing for Shockers? No problem. Novas your toy? More power to ya.

The secret here is that, for 99% of us, the gun right out of the box will shoot just as fast as you can pull the trigger, the ball will go just as far, and just as accurately, as any other marker on the field.

The only real difference these days is ergonomics and cosmetics. Like the new "dust" finishes? Fine. I don't- they look "unfinished" and they hold dirt and fingerprints something fierce. But that's my opinion. It's no different than some people not liking blue, or not liking purple, or whatever.

Doc.

[Gadget]

1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."

Learning the trigger to prevent short stroking is still an issue - the L10 helps people who have problems with this by bouncing off half-fed balls.



2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?

Probably because WE (the customer base) asked for it. The days when you could guarantee that every brand of barrel would also come in twistlock are long gone - what better way to increase the selection of barrels available to us than to opt for the most popular threading around? Personally I still love my twistlock :)


3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.

Anything that stops RT valves from runaway is a good thing in my book - tourny judges are getting very picky about what they'll allow on the fields these days and that's one less thing for me to worry about.....but if you don't want to lose the reactivity, save some money and don't buy the ULE trigger....it's not mandatory.


guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

Cockers are great markers sure, but by no means 'the only choice' (I'm guessing that you now own a cocker?). I've enjoyed playing with a racegun cocker and the E-blades seem nice too....but personally I'd rather run an Angel, Matrix, Impulse or Timmy than a cocker - more elegant design and faster cycling.

But above all of those, when I decided to buy a new electro a month ago, I still chose to spend my money on an E-Mag when I could have opted for anything else (X-Mag included) - why?.....because I like over-engineered design, I like stainless steel last-for-a-lifetime bodies and I'm just comforatable with mags.

If you're happier running a cocker, that's good too - hope it works well for ya! :)

[MarkM]

Without going into the political flaming that is happening in this thread think about this "IF" the autococker hadn't been as popular as it was and has become then what barrel thread would be on the E-mag ? Had Tom had gone with a numbers sold list then perhaps all of you E-mag owners are lucky that the barrels weren't Spyder threaded. Think what would happen if the autococker became consigned to the scrapheap and was a museum piece, which barrel thread would the "new" AGD marker become...?? Angel threads? Shocker threads?

[JEDI]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
Okay, please for the love of God explain to me how a gun that was converted from a pump and uses 60's technology is "The Only Choice".

You had credibility with me until you made that statement. I mean, I like Cockers and how they shoot and all, but they have to be one of the pathetically engineered guns on the market.

Man, you guys crack me up. One ignorant statement after another. :rolleyes: He says, "They're the only true marker..." Yeah, what ever... Then you come on and say they're pathetically engineered. You're both rediculous. You guys dont realize that we're such a good forum here, but you're infantile perspective on other guns, makes us look very incredibly stupid.

By the way... cockers are fantastic performers. If you've never had luck with one, maybe its you. :eek:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by MarkM
Think what would happen if the autococker became consigned to the scrapheap and was a museum piece, which barrel thread would the "new" AGD marker become...?? Angel threads? Shocker threads?

As a company they don't seem to make decisions which they know will hurt their customers just for political reasons - so if the cocker were out of the picture I'd have thought AGD would go with Angel threads. There's probably more Spyders out there, but I wouldn't like to bet that they've got as wide a selection of barrels available for them as Angels.

Would be nice to see all of the different 'standards' slowly converge so that you could buy a barrel without worrying about what threads its got. :)

[GT]

1. It was rare for me to ever chop with my lvl7 bolt. I still do not understand the need for the lvl10 on non RT valved guns.

2. Twista lock sux. You can hardly find them.

3. I was messing with a budies x last weekend and i could feel the reactiveness. all you have to do is just put a little weight on the trigger and bam 2 or 3 out the barrel.

futhermore,
I bought the x for a few reasons weight, semi reacative, lighter pull, and lvlx. if that aint worth 325 bucks I dont know what is. Infact how much is that eclipse eblade frame? 400 bucks for no chops and a lighter trigger pull, and your internals may or may not be up to the task. hmm.. cockers are nice but far short of teh ultimate gun.

conclusion,
I am building a ULE mag. I am hoping that it will run around and the same weight as a spyder. How many cockers do you know that can shot 26bps+ and weigh in around a spyder?

jb

[DWill]

Pulls out a flame thrower and flames gam-e to a crisp :D ...jk. I'm sorry that AGD is not working for you anymore, and if a cocker feels like a better gun and keeps you playing paintball than by all means stick with the cocker.

[FalconGuy016]

You seemed to be completely owned on nearly everything you said Game-e, but thats not the real point anyways. The real point is that you like an autococker more now, and no one is going to change that, and thats fine.

[BlackVCG]

Yeah, I'm biased against other guns... That's why I own more Tippmanns than AGD guns. :rolleyes:

Stop taking my words out of context. I said it was pathetic engineering, because from an engineering standpoint, I believe it is. We're dealing with a gun that was originally a pump gun and after some various people tinkering with it and using "off the shelf" pneumatic parts, they converted it to semi-auto. That really isn't engineering. Take a Cocker to a mechanical/pneumatic engineer and they'll probably ask you why the gun has a back-block and why are all of the pneumatics sticking out the front. Things like that don't make any sense from an engineering standpoint, but they do when you realize it was a conversion.

But yeah, I'm close minded towards other guns. That's why I'm going to buy an Angel Speed when I can and that's why I read the tech threads in forums for other guns to learn more about them.

[Jerhew]

oh ya
no one mentioned this but twist lock was used because it wouldve been too difficult to tap threads into the hard stainless mag bodies...

[TigerMan]

So the Autococker is the best available marker you say? How long will this last, 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 months? Everybody changes. We all go to "Oh man this is the greatest marker I've owned, I'm set with this," to 3 weeks later having a new marker. Not saying you do this, but that's something that makes me feel all warm and tingly inside is hearing people give advice on a marker they own, saying it's the best super doo dah thing, then a week later owning something else. :rolleyes: So it wasn't the greatest then? You go from one week to saying you own the best thing on the planet, to one week later going, "ehh, I always thought that was better so I hopped up and sold it." The truth is their is no greatest marker available, their is just the greatest marker available right now. :rolleyes: Something better always comes along.

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by Jerhew
oh ya
no one mentioned this but twist lock was used because it wouldve been too difficult to tap threads into the hard stainless mag bodies...

-Actually, it's my understanding that threaded barrels were never considered. The design of the 'Mag was essentially always based on a stainless tube (at least, for all the works after the blowback "Panther" prototypes of way back when) and that meant that, to make threads, a breech insert with threads would have to be soldered/brazed in place.

In fact, the very earliest 'Mags used a combination; the breech- where the ball falls through the barrel from the side today- was fixed in the body, and only the front half "twist-locked" into place.

Check out the very first review that APG did of the 'Mag back in '90 or so- if you look close, you'll see the barrel has a short lock groove (about 1/4" from the end of the barrel) and no through-breech hole.

The design was changed almost immediately to the configuration we know now- but the bottom line is threaded barrels were never given any real thought even from day one.

Doc.

[gam-e]

by no means was i stating that the ALMIGHT AUTOCOCKER RULES THE WORLD OF PAINTBALL.

i was expressing my opinion as a matter of fact, as most of us do most of the time.

i am glad to see that most, or at least half of the people here have realized that, and not got bent out of shape over it.

i am not ignorant, and i am not stupid; however, i am gulity of being closed-minded at times. this was one of those times. and i dont believe that i got owned at all. i was educated (my perspectives were broadened)on a subject that i viewed very one sided.

guys im not anti AGD jesus.. i got my emag less than a month after they came out originally. ive had my rt for about 4 years already. i can't explain the X-valve, the trigger was not that much softer with it that the regular valve, and the bounce was negligible. i seldom play tourneys, and at my local field, a little 2 shot burst is a nice little thing.

im not an engineer, and im not a paintball guru like Doc

i prefer a different gun now. and ive played with cockers about as long as my E-mag. the emag is backup now. yes there are many "True markers" i believe people considered my opinion as a decree. NO, you don't have to like them, you dont have to buy them, YES, you can still shoot me with your mag - maybe :) - and you are free to hold you opinions, i will not encroach upon them.

however unappreciated this thread is, if it is unappreciated, i hope something is gained from it. i as well as other know about the threaded barrels, and lx (still wary of that), and X-valve (that too).

people who take things too seriously should be shot

that was sarcastic too, lord i might have more people after me for that too.

Dion

[Dayspring]

Don't know what you have to be wary about the Level 10 for...

And the X Valve doesn't lighten your trigger per se... It makes it QUICKER. The ULT... Now THAT lightens your trigger.

[Duke Henry]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Don't know what you have to be wary about the Level 10 for...

And the X Valve doesn't lighten your trigger per se... It makes it QUICKER. The ULT... Now THAT lightens your trigger.

And by ULT I believe Dayspring means ULE...

[TigerMan]

Originally posted by gam-e
by no means was i stating that the ALMIGHT AUTOCOCKER RULES THE WORLD OF PAINTBALL.

i was expressing my opinion as a matter of fact, as most of us do most of the time.

i am glad to see that most, or at least half of the people here have realized that, and not got bent out of shape over it.

i am not ignorant, and i am not stupid; however, i am gulity of being closed-minded at times. this was one of those times. and i dont believe that i got owned at all. i was educated (my perspectives were broadened)on a subject that i viewed very one sided.



People are going to react very one sided here on certain subjects because this is, after all, an Automags board. If you went to any Autococker forum and did the reverse of this, I imagine they'd respond very similarly.

When you say certain things, of course many people are not going to agree. This topic just happened to be one of them, as many of the posters here live and die by AGD products.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Duke Henry


And by ULT I believe Dayspring means ULE...

Nope, he means ULT. It's Ultra Light Trigger

[gam-e]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Don't know what you have to be wary about the Level 10 for...

i think it could have been released long ago

thats just me though, maybe not, and if it wasn't thought of until recently, i think it should have sooner. it shouldn't have taken years after other markers constructed their own ways of eliminating chopping.

Dion

[hitech]

Originally posted by gam-e
I think it could have been released long ago...It shouldn't have taken years after other markers constructed their own ways of eliminating chopping.

How do other markers eliminate chopping? Electronic markers can use some sort of "eye", but what mech. marker has a way to eliminate chopping? How do they do it?

[gam-e]

well, i know that dark cocker and free flows are pretty much identical

and the low pressure makes the bolt stop on the paint. been around for quite some time.. i can chop pain with just about any gun but not a dark or freeflow. i can run my friends dark with race frame at 15 bps when i walk the trigger and no breaks at all...played that way all day

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by gam-e
i used to be 100% AGD, in fact i was probably more than 100%. i have owned every type of marker AGD has manufactured, and i have come to a sad truth.

firstly, i would like to say that AGD makes realiable marker, they are consistent, and affordable. Until recent upgrades and the new Emags.

i just have a few questions to ask, and i really don't expect an answer from Tom or anyone else for that matter, im just venting.


1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."


2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?


3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.

like i said, i dont expect answers, and no it wasn't some lemon marker, it was tip top shape, and sadly enough the guy was totally enthralled with it.

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

on a lighter note: Tom, i heard rumors here about the 2004 emags comming with the chord milling on them... i know colin (the guy to does the milling) and he's a great guy, and i think he deserves an opportunity such as what ive heard. he does quality work, and doesn't make too much money doing it. he's paintball to the core, and a great guy.



guys... i like AGD, im just really confused about recent changes they've made (they should have, and much more COULD HAVE been done long ago)

on with the flames....actuall well thought out rebutals would be appreaciated

Dion I have to agree with your POV.

[hitech]

LPRs set at low pressures tend to not chop, but far from eliminate it. They keep getting better at it. Wasn't that long ago that running your LPR at low enough pressures to not chop slowed the cycle rate too much.

Level 10 is an engineering masterpiece. You can make the bolt as "soft" as you want without sacrificing cycle speed. Yes, it was one of the later developments. But it was based on research that proved it would work instead of just selling it to you claiming that it worked. That takes some time. ;)

[Duke Henry]

Originally posted by FooTemps


Nope, he means ULT. It's Ultra Light Trigger

My mistake, I thought it would have been ULET for Ultra Light Engineered Trigger, since the ULE body is called the ULE Body.

I guess I should be checking in more often; I am clearly out of date on all of the acronyms!

[cockersuk14]

i agree with some of the actual problems you have said and some actually have legitamate arguments however y would u ever come to think an autococker is the best available marker out there? They are possibly the least reliable guns out there in terms of working properly. Plenty of friends that i play with have them and all of them have constant problems with leaks and breakdowns. and i have no idea about anyone else but the actual feel of the trigger on a cocker is disgusting, no matter what type, ive shot hinges stock frames, black magics and i still have not found anything remotely decent. not to mention their claimed accuracy, their accuracy is not anything of wat it is claimed to be. if u want accuracy buy a shocker. and now with the developement of the eblade it adds to the problems. i mean putting a solenoid in a cocker is only something more to break. now this is my oppinion and im not tryin to diss cocker owners or users at all so dont hold me on this but im just saying wat me and alot of people think.

thus the name cockersuk14 peace

[gam-e]

not a problem, but doesn't putting a solenoid on any marker add something to break. i never fiddle with my cocker, never breaks, i guess im a luck bastage.

but if you have any marker with a solenoid on it isn't that an extra part that could break...doesn't mean it will

Dion

[Mav D MagMan]

Originally posted by cockersuk14
i agree with some of the actual problems you have said and some actually have legitamate arguments however y would u ever come to think an autococker is the best available marker out there? They are possibly the least reliable guns out there in terms of working properly. Plenty of friends that i play with have them and all of them have constant problems with leaks and breakdowns. and i have no idea about anyone else but the actual feel of the trigger on a cocker is disgusting, no matter what type, ive shot hinges stock frames, black magics and i still have not found anything remotely decent. not to mention their claimed accuracy, their accuracy is not anything of wat it is claimed to be. if u want accuracy buy a shocker. and now with the developement of the eblade it adds to the problems. i mean putting a solenoid in a cocker is only something more to break. now this is my oppinion and im not tryin to diss cocker owners or users at all so dont hold me on this but im just saying wat me and alot of people think.

thus the name cockersuk14 peace

They let you post on here without clearing up some of your misinformation?

1. Problems with cockers arise from the user (most of the time, compounded by the fact that it is an intricate machine), that's why *some* people have trouble with this and that constantly.

Either they don't know how to take care of it or they fiddle with it unneccessarily.

2. Cockers not as accurate- I don't know if you've seen this around here the hundred billion times it's been said but it's not the marker that makes accuracy (for the most part).

The barrel and paint being used makes more of a difference than recoil and consistency combined.

Good barrel + Good Paint x A Good Paint to Barrel Match = Accuracy. No matter what marker you're shooting it out of!

A low recoil + a consistent operation also add to the accuracy of the marker.

And the rest of your post is just your pref. opinions, cockers just aren't your marker.

Mav

[WicKeD_WaYz]

This thread has gotten very repetative. But I would like to add one thing.

Any cocker will chop more than a level 10 mag. Period.

Thats an unbiased opinion because I have owned 7 or 8 nice cockers in my life.

[Webmaster]

I havent read everyones responce - and I bet that some of this has been covered - but I want to give my responce:


1) The chopping issue needs to be addressed for what time period you are talking about. From 1990 to around 2000 if you chopped in a mag it was most likely due to a short stroke, missfeed, or your trigger rod was out of wack from fiddling with it. When these complaints continued past 2000, it was still thought that it was people shortstoking etc. It wasnt until recently that more and more brittle paint became available on the market. And whats more - guns that could actually SHOOT it. Brittle paint existed back in the day - but it was considered CRAP. Bad paint it was! It wasnt until recently that brittle paint became desirable. At first AGD tried to help monitor the brittleness of paint (with perhaps a paintball humidor in the future) but later they figured out WHY brittle paint broke in thier guns. And it was the bolt speed.

So... if you use decent paint and break, its most likely user error. If it is brittle paint its the mag breaking it. So its the same symptom caused by two different problems - and one problem only recently cropped up.

2) The reason twist locks cost more was due to the expence to make them. Its just extra steps in the machine shop. But at the time when the mag was made - it was rather revolutionary and a desirable feature. Back in the day everyone made mag barrels and it really wasnt an issue. Heck - cocker barrels actually cost the same at one pooint - because the mag and cocker were the high end guns and people would spend the money. So I guess if Tom had a crystal ball he could see that ultimately 13 YEARS after he designed the automag that he would go to cocker threads then he would have done it. Then again, if he had that kind of power over time and space he wouldnt be running a paintball company.

3) Dunno about this. I shot a whole case at EMR with my Xvalved mag and just loved it. Soooo that maybe ask in the tech forum.


"guys... i like AGD, im just really confused about recent changes they've made (they should have, and much more COULD HAVE been done long ago) "

hmm - well why not complain to bud about the autococker?

He made a TOTAL POS - a real turd for many years. To get a decent working cocker you had to shell out $500 to a custom shop to get it where it would even work reliably. And unlike AGD where they redesigned there working (to RT, to LX) - the 2003 cocker uses the same tech as the 1992 cocker. Same sledge hammer reg. I suppose a newer 3 way/ram - but the old ones were fine if you polished them.

What I am saying is like with any product there is an evolution and refinment proceses. It change due to chagnes in the sport and the consumers wants and needs. Tom will be the first to say hes been slow to respond to the rapidly changing market (mainly because they dropped out of paintball a few years ago for military projects, and have been playing catch up ever since).

I think some of your point are valid - but to day "why didnt you do 'x' a long time ago" is kinda silly. It just wasnt thought of then. Im sure any inventor would LOVE to beable to have invented something 5 yrs before they actually did to get ahead of the game. But to do that you would need a time machine....

maybe thats what Tom should do next.

[gam-e]

it is a good idea though right....a time machine :)

[Nomad]

Yeah, but if Tom made a time machine, he'd just go forward in time, find out who won all the world series in every major sport and then come back and bet on them.

He'd be a millionare and wouldn't have to stay in the paintball business....

:eek: :eek:

[TigerMan]

Originally posted by Nomad
Yeah, but if Tom made a time machine, he'd just go forward in time, find out who won all the world series in every major sport and then come back and bet on them.

He'd be a millionare and wouldn't have to stay in the paintball business....

:eek: :eek:

Just like in Back to the Future II!!!! ;):eek:

[Frank (the spank)]

Originally posted by TigerMan


Just like in Back to the Future II!!!! ;):eek:

Mmmmmm Elizabeth Shue...

Although she's kinda skanky.. after all she did Michael J Fox in back to the future 2 and Ralph Machio in Karate Kid, lol

[banzaimf]

Originally posted by gam-e
well, i know that dark cocker and free flows are pretty much identical

and the low pressure makes the bolt stop on the paint. been around for quite some time.. i can chop pain with just about any gun but not a dark or freeflow. i can run my friends dark with race frame at 15 bps when i walk the trigger and no breaks at all...played that way all day

LP.... Just a point here, LP helping cockers being easier on paint is all about dropping the recock pressure to LP. ie 30 or 40psi MAX! Well below the "opereating pressure of 150.

If you have the patience and an adjustable front reg, you can do that with pretty much any cocker.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Originally posted by gam-e
1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."

You know, A lot of it really is short stroking. I had two of my friends shoot my X-Valved mag yesterday, and both of them had a problem with short stroking. The Level 10 kept them in check though.

Hell, at Global Conquest, I let another AOer shoot my RT Pro/X and took a few shots with his Classic. And sure enough, I short stroked that bad boy. ^_^

Besides, if they really had a problem with the bolt hitting the paint so hard that they would break when fully in the breech, why would they move from the foamie to the Hardnose bolt?

My friend had an RT Pro without LX for a year and had almost no Chopping problems to speak of.


2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?

Numerous reasons. For starters, like others said, at the time, Removable barrels were a new idea, and AGD's design was actually quite the elegant solution. I look at the deisgn of the barrels, and I can't help but appreciate the elegance of easily replacable detents and, yes, the quick operation.

Other people answered this concern much better than me, such as how actual Threaded barrels allowed for the easy-changing breeches, Less companies are making mag barrels, and lastly, there is the fact that CF and right/left barrels use different millings of barrels.


3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.


I, as mentioned before, have an RT Pro/X (Stock X-Valve), Now mind you, it is stock, so it might be different than added in, but when I was shooting the fellow AOers classic, I could definately 'feel' the difference.

I can routinely get 5 shot bursts out of my RT Pro.


like i said, i dont expect answers, and no it wasn't some lemon marker, it was tip top shape, and sadly enough the guy was totally enthralled with it.

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.


Now, to say an Autococker is the 'only choice' for a true marker, is bullocks, and something that's just... well... dumb. You've got, mags aside; Tippmanns, Spyders, Bushmasters, Angels, Matrices, (Erm, that's the plural of Matrix, right?) Intimidators, Novas, I could go on and on, listing every company but Brass Eagle and ZAP :)

[tr0n]

1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."


Uhh, I think what the lvl10 is for is actually to help the people that havent learned the trigger yet. I cant really think of a good way to say this but yeah... Of course the bolt chops it in half if you dont pull the trigger. Thats what the lvl10 is for. LOL The bolt will stop on the paint which is much more forgiving on a noob at the trigger.

[gam-e]

*sigh* :rolleyes: as if this already hadn't been established.... so unique. :rolleyes:

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by gtrsi

futhermore,
I bought the x for a few reasons weight, semi reacative, lighter pull, and lvlx. if that aint worth 325 bucks I dont know what is. Infact how much is that eclipse eblade frame? 400 bucks for no chops and a lighter trigger pull, and your internals may or may not be up to the task. hmm.. cockers are nice but far short of teh ultimate gun.


OK, i've never shot a retro mag, but eblades turn your gun into an electro, plain and simple. It doesn't just "lighten the trigger", it makes it lighter than a mouse click. You obviously don't know much about cockers, because the stock internals are as good as it gets. Only thing better are freeflow internals because they are stainless steel.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by cockermongol


OK, i've never shot a retro mag, but eblades turn your gun into an electro, plain and simple. It doesn't just "lighten the trigger", it makes it lighter than a mouse click. You obviously don't know much about cockers, because the stock internals are as good as it gets. Only thing better are freeflow internals because they are stainless steel.

actually the ff hammer is tungstun carbide and is the heaviest on the market... thus allowing for the lightest mainspring possible
don't correct someone unless you're right yourself :rolleyes:

[gam-e]

oh my god, pinch a loaf already.

you were still able to get the gist of his comment even if he said SS instead of "TUNGSTUN CARBIDE"...big whoop got one thing wrong.

the fact is, regardless of his slip-up, is that the stock internals are up to the task of withstanding electro frames, he further went on stating that the only thing better are free flow internals because they are SS.

dont put two mistakes in the same ballpark...one was just made of blatant subterfuge, the other was a tiny mistake in the materials used to manufacture a product.

i think they make luvox for people like this...christ. and lemme add my :rolleyes:

Dion

[Jerhew]

i was mainly making the point that he was correcting someone when he, himself apparently knows little more about 'cockers than what the kids at his local field tell him

"You obviously don't know much about cockers"
and the goes on to tell him something inaccurate

i just can't stand know-it-alls that don't know it all

i can't say what gtrsi meant by what he said and i wasn't defending it anyway...
but it seems like just as much of a "tiny mistake" as cockermongols...

[AGD]

WOW! What a thread! Only on AO could you get this much coverage of a topic. Generally very inteligent responses is my opinion.

And another thing, everyone says that this forum is totally mag centric without differing opinions. I think the quantity of threads like this proves them wrong.

Long live AO!!

AGD

[AutomagRT1483]

Originally posted by AGD
WOW! What a thread! Only on AO could you get this much coverage of a topic. Generally very inteligent responses is my opinion.

And another thing, everyone says that this forum is totally mag centric without differing opinions. I think the quantity of threads like this proves them wrong.

Long live AO!!

AGD

Yeah Buddy!! Woot Woot!:D

[hostage]

well the first post really answered your questions, but hey we all get mad esp at the ones we love the most :-).

Also i've seen more problems with cockers than any other
-Doron

[spore 283]

I PLAY FOR THE AGD LIONS. I'V PLAYED WITH AN RT FOR 4 YEARS NOW AND ALMOST EVERY TIME I CHOPPED A BALL I KNEW IT JUST BEFORE IT HAPPENED. YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR GUN. HOW IT WORKS,WHAT IT DOES ,AND HOW YOU ARE WITH IT. I NOW HAVE A LEVL10 AND I DON'T CHOP PAINT ANYMORE. IF YOU ARE CHOPPING PAINT YOUR LEVL10 ISN'T SET UP RIGHT, OR THE PAINT ISN'T FEEDING PROPERLY. IF YOU CHOP A BALL BECAUSE OF FEEDING PROBLEMS YOU HAD TO OF PINCHED THE BALL A COUPLE OF TIMES. AS FOR THE BARELS. THAT GOT RID OF THE BALL DETENT IN THE BARREL AND IT PREVENTS THE BARREL FROM TURNING OFFSET WHILE YOUR SHOOTING. YOU PROBLY NOTICED THE TRIGGER PULL DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT WAS TWO DIFFERENT GUNS. SHOOT YOUR GUN WITH NO LEVL10, THEN SHOOT THE SAME GUN WITH THE LEVL10. ALL IN ALL WORK ON YOUR GUN LEARN YOUR GUN AND LOVE YOUR GUN AND THERE WILL BE NO PROBLEMS.

AGD LION-KID,
CHESTER

[gam-e]

PLEASE SWEET JESUS!, THIS HAS ALREADY ALL BEEN ESTABLISHED


DIE THREAD DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[tr0n]

CAPSLOCK ROXXORZ!!! CAPS LOCK 4 LIFE!!!

[gam-e]

i MEANT for the caps to be on.