anyone ever get kicked off a field too?

[WicKeD_WaYz]

ya well a couple weekends ago i was playing some rec ball at one of my local fields. the story goes like this...

It was the game right before lunch. We were playing on a field made up of a lot of buildings to represrent a town. Me and my buddy were making a hard push up the left tape and basically tearing up anything in our way. We were playing well and destroying that side. The game was getting down to the end and the guys we had shot out were standing off the field next to us watching, and walking up the side of the field as we moved. This is common for dead players to do and the refs allow it as long as they dont talk.

In our next move, a bunker move, my buddy layed cover and I ran up the tape to bunker a couple kids. Successfully. It was a beautiful move and sealed the game for us. All of a sudden I got shot in the back. Im like WTF. I look behind me and it was one of the dead players. He said when I made the bunker move I frickin stepped out of bounds. So he decided to, instead of telling the ref, shoot me himself. Of course that made me mad and I automatically tore into him with some harsh words. We had words and I walked off the field and this guy actually stuck his gun barrel in my neck and said if you touch me ill shoot (wtf?) So I dropped my trusty, not gunna break, Retro mag on the ground and knocked the kid on his ***. He then proceeded to shoot me 6 or 7 times in the chest. My friend then lit him up not stopping for about 8-10 seconds. Ya all that happened in under a minute. By that time the refs got there and seperated us.

So even though this kid started all that, I got sent home for the day with him. Not that I care I usually leave after lunch anyway but its just the princable of it.

O ya and then he had the nerve to flip me off while driving out of the lot.

so in conclusion they need to make a new rule. Dead guys dont talk, OR SHOOT.

[Rmarks]

sorry man, but you were outta line. yeah he shot you while he was a dead player and that sucks, but you shouldn't have decked him.

[Surreal]

congrats, you're an outlaw punk. you NEVER resort to fists, especially in paintball when everyone has an operational gun. you should've been banned from that field for being such an idiot. yeah, the kid was out of line for shooting you, but you were out of line for punching him. you should've told a ref, and he could've been sent home.

[TigerMan]

After that incident, I'd think your field better get smart and either net the area off from the field or not allow the dead players to be there because of exactly what happened to you. Though you did step out of bounds, it's not that dead person's job to police the field, that's the refs job. Either he should've let it go or told a ref. Not be a maurder and take it into his own hands. For that I would've been upset too. I don't know how I personally would've reacted, but I'd definately say he was the first in the wrong. However, I wouldn't say resorting to violence in this day of age of sue happy people be the best answer. I'd definately be happy with just getting kicked out from the day, and not having either a ban or charges pressed against you. Either of those could've happened. You both were in the wrong.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

whoops. Let me refrase that one.


ok no i didnt hit him. It was more of a push. Like this dude had his gun barrel to my neck and I gave him kind of a push/shoulder and he fell down backwards. Lol how would I hit some1 with a mask on. that would be funny to try.

[SG Avenger]

The situation was just very volitol.

There were just a lot of "do nots" involved.

He should definatly not have shot you, he was just asking for trouble. But after putting his marker to your body and threatening to shoot you. Yes you definatly should have proceeded to rip him limb from limb, but you're buddy shouldnt have shot him though, he should have put down his marker and kicked him in the ribs several times, or perhapse pinned him down by the neck, while you kicked him. That's personal preference though.

As for all parties involved being tossed from the field for the day, that I agree with... there is no need to keep that kind of tension in a public area that is intended to be fun for all.

By using markers you are just sending another angry mom out on a crusade against the evils of paintball.

[TigerMan]

Well still, you both were in the wrong for the incident having occured. You could've even been sue happy and things be reversed on him had you not reacted, as he was no longer using his pb marker as a piece of equipment, rather as a weapon. For that a lot could've happen to him, even just for threating you.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

and heres the next question. If I DID step out, cmon its rec ball. Is it necessary to call someone for 1 frickin foot out of bounds? Its not like I ducked the tape or anything.

[Surreal]

rules are rules, you were out. stop crying

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by Surreal
rules are rules, you were out. stop crying

now im crying? Its one foot out of bounds, the game was over anyway, people these days need to lighten up. Stop bein a little *****.

[TigerMan]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
and heres the next question. If I DID step out, cmon its rec ball. Is it necessary to call someone for 1 frickin foot out of bounds? Its not like I ducked the tape or anything.

It's still going against the rules. Could've even been against the law (not the rule breaking, but the events that ensued because of it). Even though it may have been minor, still against the rules. It's like you robbing a $1 Store and getting caught and then saying, "hey it's only a $1 Store, they're not losing much."

[shartley]

Nope.. I have never been kicked off of a field.

In your case you should have told a ref yourself. You can’t complain about someone else not telling the ref and taking things into their own hands and then do it yourself. When you said he stuck his barrel in your neck and said that if you touched him he would shoot you, that leads me to believe YOU threatened physical violence on HIM. Why else would someone say “if you touch me”?

THEN you did exactly what he told you NOT to do and if you DID he would shoot you….. bingo! He shot you! Seems like you asked for it. And then your friends decided to also take things into their hands.

If it was MY field, you and your friends would have been nicely escorted off the property and asked never to come back again. And heck, I may even have called the police.

Yes, what the kid did by shooting you from the dead box (or area) WAS wrong, but the way you handled it made his infraction look like nothing. And that is the problem with taking the “law” into your own hands (on the field or off). Most of the time by doing so you escalate the situation and actually commit worse “crimes” than you are trying to “take care of”.

I hope all involved learned a lesson…. But sadly I doubt it.

[Brak]

i dont care what anyone says about you being out of line or whatever. if that happened to me i wouldve done the same thing. i woulve beaten the crap out of the kid too, and i tihnk that if hes got the balls to shoot someone after hes out that he should know whats coming to him. i think what you did was justifiable. you broke the rules, but he broke the rules first. eye for an eye.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

wow. anger managment (the other dude). im not saying you should have shot him, but as long as he did somthing that bad and you shot him you should have gotten him somewhere that would leave a permanent mark, if you get my drift;) :D

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Lucky for me I know a lot of refs there and they know im not out to cause problems and pick fights. There were a few witnesses that took my side as well. My friend actually got in more trouble than both of us did because he put like half a hopper into the guy. He used the excuse "he had his gun raised so I thought he was still playing". LOL

I guess I was sort of threatening him I was really in the moment I know it was a bad thing to do. I just didnt have time to think about it then. We were on like the final push and I got shot by a dead player. I just got mad too quick I guess.

O well

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by Brak
i dont care what anyone says about you being out of line or whatever. if that happened to me i wouldve done the same thing. i woulve beaten the crap out of the kid too, and i tihnk that if hes got the balls to shoot someone after hes out that he should know whats coming to him. i think what you did was justifiable. you broke the rules, but he broke the rules first. eye for an eye.

lol good. Im not the only one.

:)

[la690]

though others may disagreee, i think you were just in your actions. when people act like *bad words* they deserve to get shut down hard. good job.:D

[hitech]

Come on, it's rec ball. When you realized the "dead" player shot you, wipe it off and just keep playing. Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Crighton]

Originally posted by hitech
Come on, it's rec ball. When you realized the "dead" player shot you, wipe it off and just keep playing. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Yep you shoulda kept playing. Just flipped the kid the bird or something. Maybe given him a choice word or two. You said you had alot of ref friends. Perhaps telling one of them what just happend would have been the best course of action. They would have taken your side for sure.

[deathstalker]

You're right: it's the principle of the matter. What you did was illegal; it's considered battery, possibly assault, and in no way can you explain what you did as being mature, correct, or justified. No matter what the other person did, you still committed a crime. Yes, a crime.

You said it yourself - it's just rec ball. Why did YOU have to react the way you did? Did you actually post this thinking you'd get support?:rolleyes:

You and Brak have done a wonderful job showing everyone how mature you both are.

*EDIT: I see you have a few immature friends who DO support you! Sad, just sad...

[Brak]

Originally posted by deathstalker

You and Brak have done a wonderful job showing everyone how mature you both are.

*EDIT: I see you have a few immature friends who DO support you! Sad, just sad...

thats right. i wouldve done the same thing. so would a bunch of other people. we are the people who actually act instead of just sitting there and taking crap from other people.

i understand if you wouldve wussed out and walked away, but some of us dont do things like that, we have, what do you call it? ah, manhood...

[Halliday]

If a "dead" player shot me, for whatever reason, I'd make sure he was wearing his mask then put a few balls into him and keep playing. Only live players should be shooting, so if he was shooting he's still fair game.

As for being out of bounds, it dosen't matter if it was an inch or a mile. Still out. That guy should have called a Ref and not shot you.

[superdesk2007]

Press charges on him for assult with a deadly weapon for pointing it at your neck. It happened to a kid in MI.

[SlipknotX556]

You just should have give him one good punch to the face in the first place, then it would have been over. :)


But this reminds me of a few weeks back when me and like 5 friends played, one of the kids got a call that some other kid was gonna come to the field just to beat the crap out of my friend, so we play not thinking of it. Then the kid shows up, says I want to do a 1 vs 1 against my friends, so they do. Now we play on the team practice area, where anything goes, at the start of the game my friend runs up the right tape and decides to start shooting after about 10 sec of fire, the kid starts to yell SURRENDER, now you cant yell that when playing with me or anyone I know, it states right in the insurance form, that you have to sign, but beside that my friend stops firing, we walk off field, so when we are talking to ourselves the kid just runs up and spears my friend, then a fight breaks out.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

You're fortunate they didn't ban you, the other guy, and your friend from the field forever. What all three of you did was show you're too immature to be in possession of paintball markers and if they had permanently banned you I wouldn't blame them. They don't want to deal with issues like what you put them through, if it happened all the time someone's going to get hurt and the field will be closed.

And your rationale is weak. OK, it is recball, so he shoots you and it shouldn't count then you just wipe it and keep going. Then you rationally discuss it with the ref if he tells the ref you stepped out of bounds. I am pretty sure the ref would have been more angry at him for shooting you when he was eliminated than for one foot out of bounds. Instead you chose to act like an idiot and obviously get so pissed off and aggressive that he felt the need to put his marker to your neck to have you back off. Notice he didn't shoot till you decided to actually get violent? So instead of being mature and walking away from it you chose to escalate it. And when your friend decided to unload on him instead of try to break it up he was just as bad as the kid. The refs had every reason to kick you out right there and then.

It's a game, so stop acting like you're a victim in this situation and learn from it. People acting like the three of you were should never be tolerated at a field and ruins it for everyone. It's a game, and if you have issues take them outside because they're not welcome on the field.

You posted asking for opinions, so there is mine. Flame away if you still think you were right, but if you take Brak's advice don't go crying when the police get involved, you get banned from fields, or something worse. The other guy was wrong, but what you and your friend did was also wrong, just accept it.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

alright i know im immature. You guys dont have to repeat it a thousand times. I also get in more than my share of fights. (first time while paintballing though)

Maybe my reaction is going to be different than some 30 or 40 year old guy. Im 17. I dont take :insert bad word her: from people. Neither do my friends. Sure im immature. I make plenty of bad decisions.

But if it happened again I would react similar. The next time I would have finished the game then proceeded to whip his *** in the parking lot with masks off? better?

thats the way Im wired so you guys can bash me and call me immature all you want. Cuz your right. But that doesnt change anything.

I didnt post looking for sympathy. I've been on these boards long enough to know when im NOT going to get sympathy. I posted to tell a story and maybe spark up some opinions. I mean this is a message board. Your not my anger management counselor.


go on

continue with you matureness.:rolleyes:

[FalconGuy016]

What ever made him put a barrel to your neck?

[Brak]

dont listen to these "mature" people. they just call themselves mature when the real thing is that they dont GOT NO BALLS!! SUCKAS!!!

[rpm07]

You handeled all wrong. You should have been very nice about it and smacked him upside the head with a Boomstick

[Crighton]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
But if it happened again I would react similar. The next time I would have finished the game then proceeded to whip his *** in the parking lot with masks off? better?


My friend that is a poor choice. One of these days your going to run into a sleeper. Some one that looks like a pansy but they are going to lay the smack down on you. I know this for certain. I've got a friend that may look like a softy but hes got a pair of golden gloves hanging around his neck. I've seen him put more than one guy back in there place. Fighting should be a last resort.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by Crighton


My friend that is a poor choice. One of these days your going to run into a sleeper. Some one that looks like a pansy but they are going to lay the smack down on you. I know this for certain. I've got a friend that may look like a softy but hes got a pair of golden gloves hanging around his neck. I've seen him put more than one guy back in there place. Fighting should be a last resort.


ya dont get me wrong im sure there are plenty of guys that could whip my *** in a second. But im no pussy i know how to fight and I do it very well. But if someone does kick my *** some day. Good for him. I probably deserved it.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

why does everybody always have to act all mature and stuff about stuff like this? i hate it.

havent you guys ever been caught up in the moment and just spazed? he got SHOT (which hurts if ya didnt know) by a kid that was OUT, for a minor infraction (that might not have even happened). playing rec ball at a friends house, i got lit up by 2 kids with electro spyders during a mess-around game. (i made a suicide run, yea). anyways i hold up my gun, yell hit the loudest i can (they are about 15 ft away) and they keep shooting. 2 kids, fully automatic, for about 4 seconds. you can do the math. anyways i flipped, i dropped my gun, ran over to the trampoline (which was used as our equip. table) and when they came about 30 seconds later, i spazed. i was swearing up a storm, then i grabbed one of their guns and shot both of them from about 5 ft away. yea, not a good idea, but hey, i was pissed.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Brak
I understand if you would've wussed out and walked away...

I know you don't know me, but I don't "wuss out". I tend to cause myself greif because I tend not to walk away when I should. I was one shot in rec ball. If I were upset enough might have had a few choice words and even shot back (if he is shooting he is in play), but even I would have probably just wiped it and kept playing. It's not "wussing out".

[FatMan]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
alright i know im immature. You guys dont have to repeat it a thousand times. I also get in more than my share of fights. (first time while paintballing though)

Maybe my reaction is going to be different than some 30 or 40 year old guy. Im 17. I dont take :insert bad word her: from people. Neither do my friends. Sure im immature. I make plenty of bad decisions.

But if it happened again I would react similar. The next time I would have finished the game then proceeded to whip his *** in the parking lot with masks off? better?

thats the way Im wired so you guys can bash me and call me immature all you want. Cuz your right. But that doesnt change anything.

I didnt post looking for sympathy. I've been on these boards long enough to know when im NOT going to get sympathy. I posted to tell a story and maybe spark up some opinions. I mean this is a message board. Your not my anger management counselor.


go on

continue with you matureness.:rolleyes:

You have an anger management counselor? Hmmm, we may all be in over our heads. :D

If you're still reading, let me say this: you are right, you are 17 and its not unusual for a 17 year old to react as such. So, I'm not going to condemn you, or call you names or anything, I'd just like to point out that most of the world you live in will not put up with fighting as a means to solve a problem - even one started with violence and fighting. OK, so I'm sure you know this, at least in your head, the trick is to learn to REALLY know it, so that you can live that way.

In fact, one of the great things about paintball is that we can get the rush that goes with our sport, without engaging in anger or violence. When someone crosses that line, the beauty of the sport is gone. If you are SO uptight about your game that you get angry or shoot someone when you are out, you are no longer playing paintball - you are just being a thug. I get the feeling YOU at least knew you weren't playing paintball when you decked the guy, but still you got pulled out of "the paintball zone" just the same.

So, what I'm doing is CHALLENGING you to be the guy who doesn't get angry, who doesn't throw the punch, who doesn't curse and yell. And you can deal with that guy just as easily - you turn around, say "oh, was I out? OK!" and "why did you shoot me? Dead men are required to have their plug in" Then you smile, and go tell the refs and watch HIM get sent packing. Next time he's at the field, go bunker him, and then after the game give him a high 5. He'll either get the hint, or go somewhere else. You, on the other hand, keep your respect.

Because frankly, with what you pulled, you got none!

FatMan

[Crighton]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz



ya dont get me wrong im sure there are plenty of guys that could whip my *** in a second. But im no pussy i know how to fight and I do it very well. But if someone does kick my *** some day. Good for him. I probably deserved it.

Yeah except my friend doesn't woop people. If your dumb enough to press a fight with him and start throwing punches. He WILL send you to the hospital. He doesn't mess around.


I'm not saying be a pussy about it but don't be the one pushing for the fight. If it comes to you then **** it let the fists fly. But don't go out pressing for fights.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by Crighton


Yeah except my friend doesn't woop people. If your dumb enough to press a fight with him and start throwing punches. He WILL send you to the hospital. He doesn't mess around.


I'm not saying be a pussy about it but don't be the one pushing for the fight. If it comes to you then **** it let the fists fly. But don't go out pressing for fights.


hahahahaha I got a good laugh there. My friend can beat up your friend. My big brother can beat up your big brother. LOL :rolleyes: hahaha

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by FatMan


You have an anger management counselor? Hmmm, we may all be in over our heads. :D

If you're still reading, let me say this: you are right, you are 17 and its not unusual for a 17 year old to react as such. So, I'm not going to condemn you, or call you names or anything, I'd just like to point out that most of the world you live in will not put up with fighting as a means to solve a problem - even one started with violence and fighting. OK, so I'm sure you know this, at least in your head, the trick is to learn to REALLY know it, so that you can live that way.

In fact, one of the great things about paintball is that we can get the rush that goes with our sport, without engaging in anger or violence. When someone crosses that line, the beauty of the sport is gone. If you are SO uptight about your game that you get angry or shoot someone when you are out, you are no longer playing paintball - you are just being a thug. I get the feeling YOU at least knew you weren't playing paintball when you decked the guy, but still you got pulled out of "the paintball zone" just the same.

So, what I'm doing is CHALLENGING you to be the guy who doesn't get angry, who doesn't throw the punch, who doesn't curse and yell. And you can deal with that guy just as easily - you turn around, say "oh, was I out? OK!" and "why did you shoot me? Dead men are required to have their plug in" Then you smile, and go tell the refs and watch HIM get sent packing. Next time he's at the field, go bunker him, and then after the game give him a high 5. He'll either get the hint, or go somewhere else. You, on the other hand, keep your respect.

Because frankly, with what you pulled, you got none!

FatMan


thanks for the non-bashing but at the same time uplifting post:D :D ;)

for a second there I thought I was back in class with my counselor LOL (yes I do have an anger management guy even though I dont really believe I need one):)


But what you said is right. I should have walked away and smiled but I didnt. I would like to be able to do stuff like that. But it never happens that way.

Im the last person that wants to bring fighting into paintball. Its just I reacted without thinking I guess. I care a lot about our sport and the image that we put out. The last thing I want is a paintball tourney to end up like a hockey game or a Raiders game.:) ;)


PS sorry for multiple posts its the easy way out when im quoting people.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by CaptaiN_JacK
why does everybody always have to act all mature and stuff about stuff like this? i hate it.

havent you guys ever been caught up in the moment and just spazed? he got SHOT (which hurts if ya didnt know) by a kid that was OUT, for a minor infraction (that might not have even happened). playing rec ball at a friends house, i got lit up by 2 kids with electro spyders during a mess-around game. (i made a suicide run, yea). anyways i hold up my gun, yell hit the loudest i can (they are about 15 ft away) and they keep shooting. 2 kids, fully automatic, for about 4 seconds. you can do the math. anyways i flipped, i dropped my gun, ran over to the trampoline (which was used as our equip. table) and when they came about 30 seconds later, i spazed. i was swearing up a storm, then i grabbed one of their guns and shot both of them from about 5 ft away. yea, not a good idea, but hey, i was pissed.

Wow! If that was at my field, you'd be gone, permanently. The kids would be gone for the day!

These are the ones I just don't get. You are playing PAINTBALL! If you are on the field you are going to get shot! You can yell as loud as you like, but you are wearing a mask that covers the mouth and they are wearing a mask that covers the ears and there are markers going off and a lot of confusion. If you don't like it at close range, then you don't make "suicide runs." If they are blind shooting or ignoring hand signals, they need to be punished. But not like that.

I have seen this again and again and again - the classic "overshooting" and I have never, ever witnessed it because the shooter was being malicious. I'm sure it happens, but in no way does it justify anger and violence. And shooting them off the field - you KNOW better dude!

Resorting to anger, fighting, or shooting in these circumstance is cowardess, pure and simple. The pussy is the guy who can't handle his own emotions and deal with it like a man.

FatMan

[FatMan]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz


But what you said is right. I should have walked away and smiled but I didnt. I would like to be able to do stuff like that. But it never happens that way.



Heh! Well, it never does happen that way at first. What I'd like to see is you (and you other guys) at least making it a goal. And I'd like to see more guys realizing it isn't the pussy who holds back - its the guy who can kill you with one blow, but doesn't feel he has to. That's the guy to be.

One day you might be that much of a badass!

FatMan

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by FatMan

If you don't like it at close range, then you don't make "suicide runs."

AMEN


LOL captain_Jack be thankful the guys that lit you up were actually IN the game lol


I understand getting pissed off. Hell we have all been overshot before. It happens to me on a weekely basis. I usually mutter some select words to myself while walking off the field and trying not to cry LOL.

[SP87]

if he sticks a damn barrel to your neck and tells you not to move. Kick his A$$ if you can.

You guys are weird. You should not have only hit him once. But you should have kept kicking him and shootin him.

lol

you people take paintball too seriously.

"its against the rules"

the jackass who pointed the gun at you broke the rules to begin with. and shouldn't have shot you in the first place.

WOW!

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by FatMan


Heh! Well, it never does happen that way at first. What I'd like to see is you (and you other guys) at least making it a goal. And I'd like to see more guys realizing it isn't the pussy who holds back - its the guy who can kill you with one blow, but doesn't feel he has to. That's the guy to be.

One day you might be that much of a badass!

FatMan

haha thats what ill tell people.

"i could knock you out, but I dont feel like it"

lol


in all seriousness though Ill try to remember that from now on.:)

[hitech]

Originally posted by FatMan
I have seen this again and again and again - the classic "overshooting" and I have never, ever witnessed it because the shooter was being malicious.

I have. But then, the guilty party isn't allowed at the field anymore. They even have his picture behind the counter. :D

[Muzikman]

I have gotten into my share of fights in my life time, but never on a paintball field and never for such a stupid reason. All I can say is...Kids these days...

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK, my last post because talking to you, Brak, and one or two others here is just a waste of time. You want to be arrogant little tough guys, go for it. You'll learn your lessons at some point in the real world when mommy and daddy aren't protecting you. You have a sheltered life right now, so just don't say you weren't warned your behavior and attitude was going to get you in trouble some day. You only have yourself to blame.

A person isn't a man because he doesn't back down from fights, that's being a bullheaded jerk that no one likes. Don't be that guy. You're a man because you know when to choose your fights and only fight when no other respectable alternatives exist and you have to. Use your philosophy and take a swing at the first cop that tells you that you can't do something or gives you a ticket, see where that gets you. Nowhere or jail. This game (I repeat, GAME) is a high adrenaline one and if you can't handle it properly as you obviously can't, you shouldn't be playing.

Adios all you wannabe thugs, just don't think you're fooling the rest of us or impressing us. I can assure you that you're not.

[jdev]

Originally posted by SlipknotX556
....the kid starts to yell SURRENDER, now you cant yell that when playing with me or anyone I know, it states right in the insurance form, that you have to sign, but beside that....

you have an insurance form that says you cannot yell surrender.. heh, thats a little different.

-----

back to the story at hand

-----

im sure that there is something missing here. we know that wicked supposedly stepped out of bounds, dead man shot him and then we skip right to wicked having a barrel in his neck.

now, im no forensic scientist or anything.. but im sure some choice words were exchanged prior to this.

now, whether wicked was right or wrong, thats for each individual to decide. im sure at the moment, what he was doing he thought he was right in doing so (and im sure he still thinks that)

if I were put in the same situation, you can bet my marker would have been on the ground, and the person pointing a marker at my neck would have been sure to follow quickly.

i dont know if you were wearing a neck protector, and not sure what part of the neck the marker was pointed at.. but, you realize a marker that is chronied to field specs, usually around 285 fps (provided its not a rental.. ), to the windpipe could possibly kill someone at that close of a range? even if it was a rental, could have caused signifigant damage..

so yes, in retrospect, he was right to shove the person away, regardless of what was said prior to the incident. I know I would not want a marker pointed at my throat, and I wear a neck protector..

now, was his friend right in lighting the kid up, in a way yes.. what would have stopped the kid on the ground from stopping firing on wicked here if his buddy didnt jump in. im sure any other bystanders were watching in awe as they say what happend, and were too preoccupied to pig pile the kid shooting wicked.

bottom line.. do i condone this, no. could have this been handled another way, yes. did it, no. will it happen again, lets hope you and everyone else learned a lesson from this.

you have a problem with someone, grab a ref or other field authority and have it dealt with that way.


.joe.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
OK, my last post because talking to you, Brak, and one or two others here is just a waste of time. You want to be arrogant little tough guys, go for it. You'll learn your lessons at some point in the real world when mommy and daddy aren't protecting you. You have a sheltered life right now, so just don't say you weren't warned your behavior and attitude was going to get you in trouble some day. You only have yourself to blame.

A person isn't a man because he doesn't back down from fights, that's being a bullheaded jerk that no one likes. Don't be that guy. You're a man because you know when to choose your fights and only fight when no other respectable alternatives exist and you have to. Use your philosophy and take a swing at the first cop that tells you that you can't do something or gives you a ticket, see where that gets you. Nowhere or jail. This game (I repeat, GAME) is a high adrenaline one and if you can't handle it properly as you obviously can't, you shouldn't be playing.

Adios all you wannabe thugs, just don't think you're fooling the rest of us or impressing us. I can assure you that you're not.


sheltered? when mommy and daddy stop protecting me? (SCREW) off. You dont know where I come from. I dont have a dad. Thats all im gunna say about that. I dont wanna hear your closeminded (POOP) about wanna be thugs. I dont wanna be anything.

Before you open your mouth dont assume everyone is a spoiled rich kid. I have had a hard life and got in my share of trouble. That doesnt me Im "trying to be a thug" I dont need some (BUTTHEAD) like you telling me who I am and who I shouldnt try to be.

Open your eyes. Not everyone is as priveledged as maybe you have been.

ya you nailed it though, thats me, trying to impress people on the god damn internet! youve gotta be kiddin me bro. Ya I would like that to be your last post. Dont come on this thread talking about my parents and me being sheltered and other (POOP) you dont know anything about. That will piss me off real quick. You dont know me. Dont make stupid assumptions.


EDITED TO CHANGE A FEW SELECT WORDS. SORRY IDE RATHER NOT GET A 3 DAY VACATION OUT OF THIS.

[Brak]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
OK, my last post because talking to you, Brak, and one or two others here is just a waste of time. You want to be arrogant little tough guys, go for it. You'll learn your lessons at some point in the real world when mommy and daddy aren't protecting you. You have a sheltered life right now, so just don't say you weren't warned your behavior and attitude was going to get you in trouble some day. You only have yourself to blame.

A person isn't a man because he doesn't back down from fights, that's being a bullheaded jerk that no one likes. Don't be that guy. You're a man because you know when to choose your fights and only fight when no other respectable alternatives exist and you have to. Use your philosophy and take a swing at the first cop that tells you that you can't do something or gives you a ticket, see where that gets you. Nowhere or jail. This game (I repeat, GAME) is a high adrenaline one and if you can't handle it properly as you obviously can't, you shouldn't be playing.

Adios all you wannabe thugs, just don't think you're fooling the rest of us or impressing us. I can assure you that you're not.


you make me sick. you are a pompous moron. please, dont post again.

[shartley]

<------- Watching his watch for closing time….. ;)

[JesseB]

Well I say Wicked did what I personally would have done.... I guess I am more immature cause I would have kicked the living crap out of someone for pulling that crap and threats of shooting me in the neck...

Well I have left several fields voluntarily. One I pulled a bunker move on a guy and instead of ripping him i said "surrender, surrender, you're gone!!" he turns his head looks at me, and then proceeds to lift his tippmann and shoot me with it three times with the barrel on my leg. He caught about 6 balls for his trouble as soon as I realized what he was doing. he then jumps up and starts wanting to fight me my friend comes running from across the field and I am yelling at this guy for shooting me after he was obviously out and not playing by the rules of the field (aggressor in a bunker move eliminates other during surrender play) well we dont get in a fight but he is crying cause he is bleeding from his finger when i have 3 blood blisters raising on my leg and one bursts spewing blood down my leg... then has the nerve to call me a pussy when I dont even complain... Well the field manager refused to do anything so me and 5 friends who all shoot about 2 cases a weekend apiece will never return to his shop, or his field for any reason.

Then the last time we played at another field I was on the 50 off the break and had the flag. I lateral the flag to a team mate and take off on a bunker run and nail a guy. The guy is reinserted I am pulled and the flag replaced all because I threw the flag...wtf... he was the last one left so my team mopped him up and my team won no big deal to me. Just realized that the Refs liked to change the rules as they go and make up there own rules. Ok next game another example of how bs the field is they want to have volunteers to let them hide their guns in the DIRT and then let other people find them and use them with only a little air and like 12 balls in them ummm how bout no....sat that bs game out.... Next game we gear up and go out there to show them our skills cause the owner (who is cool w/us wanted us to waste his regulars so they wouldn't think they were paintball gods) So we go out there and we are playing (btw gun hits dont count there, cause you wouldn't be "dead" in real war) so i catch one in the feedtube and it sprays my mask I tell a ref so he won't think I'm wiping he gives me the nod to go ahead. A chick ref who barely even plays said i was wiping so I point my gun where she can see the feedtube she yells that i pointed my gun at her... Grrr....I tell her to get out of my lane so i can keep playing. Then at the end of the game her brother gets in my face about it I tell him to shut up and if she didn't know what she was doing and she didn't want the risks she shouldn't ref. Their mom gets in my face I tell her the same and to get out of my face. They tell me i could have broke her mask if i shot her cause she was kind of close well i proceed to pop my gogs 9 times and then said oooohhhoohhhhhhh it didn't break...Then this redneck with no teeth gets in my face and takes my gun from me wtf again.. I shove him my friend grabs my kit and the redneck starts telling me how I made a bad judgement call and all this crap so I tell them to shove their bs and we all leave after I apologize to the field owner and his wife for any inconvinience to them and they say they are going to talk to the others. They got kicked out for a weekend for starting crap and making me and my buddies not want to go back anymore. So we Play somewhere else and don't deal with bs and the field owner doesn't tolerate any messing around which is a great change. MORAL: MAke sure the refs where you play are top notch it will make your playing alot more enjoyable

[WicKeD_WaYz]

there is one thing I have never understood in life.

When you are bunkering someone. Why the hell would you say surreneder?!?!?!

LOL All of the fun lies within shooting them!!

[FatMan]

Originally posted by JesseB
Well I say ... MORAL: MAke sure the refs where you play are top notch it will make your playing alot more enjoyable

I read this and it at least SOUNDS like at least there was no anger or violence used ... and if the refs were as made as their made out, I'd have to agree, I wouldn't play there either.

I must admit, having done quite a bit of reffing in both tourney and rec play, many, many refs out there don't see to know what they're doing. And sometimes incidents like the ones described in this thread would at least have been mitigated by good refs on the ball.

One of the ones I hate is the ref who thinks he isn't supposed to get hit. When I ref I usually take more paint than anyone else - more than the average guy who has been overshot - in order to be there when the action takes place. That way there is not question on the call. I can't tell you how many rec refs think their job is to sit on the side of the field and wait for someone to call them. Of course, realisticly, ya need at least 4 refs to do a good job on a game, and I realize not all fields can afford that. All the same, they need to know the rules, COMMUNICATE the rules, and be on top of the action - preventing an argument before it starts.

It IS the sign of a good field, when they have good refs. And saddly darn few of them do. BUT, if you find a good ref, you should tell him so, even when he makes a call you don't like. And tell the owner too.

FatMan

[Lohman446]

Under certain laws there could be a strong argument made that a paintball marker qualifies as a legal firearm - it definetly does in Michigan (at least as I understand it). When used in games and in "legal" ways it has been overlooked - if you start doing things that get the criminal justice system involved expect a severe problem... that being said, the first person that sticks a paintball marker to my neck outside of the game is going to meet with an appropriate reaction. Just a thought to consider

[shartley]

Originally posted by FatMan

One of the ones I hate is the ref who thinks he isn't supposed to get hit.
Ref’s are not suppose to be TARGETS, and if they are purposely targeted, the player who shoots them should be banned from the park. However, I agree, refs have to expect their share of hits.

With that said, I would like to point out Adventure Games Paintball in Weare, NH… their Refs are great and in fact one of them actually jumped in and shielded me when I was clearly being overshot while going in for (and after) a bunkering move (the guy I was bunkering was shooting me as well as his buddy in the next bunker…. And neither were about to stop.). I had even raised my marker over my head and yelled “OUT! OUT! OUT!” but they kept shooting.

Now THAT was a good ref. And did I piss and moan about being shot? Nope. Did I start a fight with the two other players? Nope. But according to SOME here in this thread, I guess I was pussy for NOT throwing my marker down and kicking some rear. ;) Well, this pussy went on to play many more games that day and we all had a great time. :D

I think some kids need to re-examine what makes someone a pussy and what makes them a man.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

the only time I have had a serious problem with a ref was at tombstone paintball park in southern cali. They opened ALL of the fields up that day for what the like to call a "big game".

Its just for fun and its one of those, when you get shot you can go get resurected and come back in. Its like a giant basically ongoing game. Just for fun. But since they opened all of the fields up. There were these field nets, that didnt get taken down, hanging all over our giant field.

To make a long story short I was on one side of the net not leaning against it though. An opposing player ran up to the other side of the same net. So im looking at the guy like 2 feet from me. He was leaning up against the net.

So... I shot the net. Plain and simple. The net was in our field of play. There were no signs that said no shooting through nets. It seems to me like its another form of bunker. So i tore into the guy and he called himself out and walked off.

The ref came over and pointed out HOLES I had put in the net by shooting it. He then proceeded to call me out of the game and said I couldnt play until after lunch.

this is what I didnt understand. The net was in the field of play. There was no rule against it. Just because they have cheap nets and you can put holes in them doesnt mean I should be punished. I thought it was time for new nets. So I told him that. Then he was all "DO YOU WANNA PAY FOR NEW NETS!?!?!?" so basically I got kicked out of a game because one of their bunkers was inneffective.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Lohman446
Under certain laws there could be a strong argument made that a paintball marker qualifies as a legal firearm - it definetly does in Michigan (at least as I understand it). When used in games and in "legal" ways it has been overlooked - if you start doing things that get the criminal justice system involved expect a severe problem... that being said, the first person that sticks a paintball marker to my neck outside of the game is going to meet with an appropriate reaction. Just a thought to consider
Under certain laws, escalating a situation into a physical altercation can land you in jail. Under certain laws, the use of a weapon can be justified as self defense even if the person has not even been physically touched. Under certain laws……

Get my point? Take the tough road if you like. Fine. But before tossing out “certain laws”, please keep the situations in perspective and how they actually happened. And I don’t think Paintball Markers are qualified as “firearms” in ANY state. Weapons? Sure, just like just about anything.

[JesseB]

Wow those sound like good refs Shartley I bet they even have a rule book on the premises lol. And don't be such a puss man throw a fit and start kicking names and taking (butt). lol

I can see both sides of the mature and the immature it would depend on what was going on if I resorted to physical violence if it is something that the field owners should handle then i say go for it but if it is something that is personal and not going to be resolved then I say get out of the situation any way necessary then fight-or-flight.

[poloniusreep]

Well if it was myself to take his barrel and stick it to your neck is way way uncalled for. I do not promote violence but at that second I’d nock his barrel away from my neck and I’d give a good jab in the throat and tell his friends to back off. If any of them would of shot me like they did you everyone of them would have landed themselves in the hospital. I would then apologize to the refs and field owner. In this case you are fully within your right to fight back the kid who stuck his barrel at your neck should have been ready for the consequences of his actions.

[omni]

The second the Kid jabbed the barrel into your neck he was no longer using his Marker to play the game or have fun. Which changes the context of the Marker, it now becomes a weapon.


The second that happened I would have turned around and decked the kid and whopped the living crap out of him so he was unable to get anywhere near his weapon to cause me any harm. The fact that he SHOT you after you pushed him totally proves he was willing to use his marker as a weapon.

[-=Squid=-]

ok, well im not the fighting type, and im not about to make SOME people in particular look bad ;) (you know who you are :D ) but I dont think I could EVER tolerate something like that. Ever. But I dont play recball either.

[shartley]

This has got to be the biggest example of issue avoidance, situation ignoring, and blame transfer that AO has seen in a long time.

Yeah, the kid just stuck the barrel in his neck out of the blue. He wasn’t threatened in any way. Yeah, that was it!

Look, the kid was wrong in doing what he did, but neither side has a legitimate leg to stand on. Neither side was right in what they did no matter how anyone wants to “justify” it.

Yes, if someone stuck a barrel in MY neck I would have decked him too…. but the simple fact is, that if someone shot me from the dead box, I would not have started a fight with the shooter, but reported it to the STAFF….. who are getting PAID to take care of situations like that. And the day would have gone on without incident.

How can anyone even type while puffing out their chests that far? ;)

[TigerMan]

Originally posted by Brak
dont listen to these "mature" people. they just call themselves mature when the real thing is that they dont GOT NO BALLS!! SUCKAS!!!

I don't think it's that "we got no balls" but rather we choose to think with our brains rather than that part of the body in certain situations. :rolleyes: Keep thinking with your "Balls" rather than your brain in those situations, you'll end up in jail one day in your life. Than you can shine your "machoness" to your fellow inmatess.

If somebody had put a barrel at my neck, sure like most people who've responded, I would've done something to prevent it. But I doubt if it were me that it would've escalated to that point. It's easy to be macho, and it's easy to get your you know what whipped in the process, but it's also easy to be the adult in the situation and not the "kid" and be the one who steps in to stop the situation before it grows. I seriously hope most of you think before you react in most situations, because if you don't sooner or later it will catch up to you.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by shartley

Under certain laws, escalating a situation into a physical altercation can land you in jail. Under certain laws, the use of a weapon can be justified as self defense even if the person has not even been physically touched. Under certain laws……

Get my point? Take the tough road if you like. Fine. But before tossing out “certain laws”, please keep the situations in perspective and how they actually happened. And I don’t think Paintball Markers are qualified as “firearms” in ANY state. Weapons? Sure, just like just about anything.

I've now effectively been told how stupid it was for me to mention that... and have considered it and chased down the definition I was thinking of
Hmm... and heres another quote on the subject

"Crimes - Felon in Possession of Firearm - Firearm - Definition

For the purpose of the offense of felon in possession of a firearm, a "firearm" is a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air, but does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BBs not exceeding .177 caliber. "

MCL 750.222(b), MCL 750.224f(1)

From a Michigan appelate court. Just a thought for those of you that want to escalate a situation well holding that marker - by the way, almost anything over .50 caliper that is designed to launch a projectile falls under the ATFs definition of a destructive device - which would make a firearm offense seem minor (and people were prosecuted for some high end "potato" guns). My point is this - they are equipment, toys to us, but if we do not use them responsibly an overzeaulous district attorney is going to teach us the word plea bargain. I love this sport, I would fight any law that infringed on it, if it was used in a way that infringed on it - I would be one of the first to complain if this was used against a player, however I will not forget that it is the law.

[TheKid_15]

I prolly would have done the same thing Wicked_Wayz did. The guy who was out shot him, wicked said a few choice words and then the dude pointed the gun at his neck, then wicked shoved/hit him. I'm sorry, not matter how mature or immature I am, I would have shoved or decked him too, no one holds a barrel, even if it is from a paintball marker, to my throat and threatens me.

As for his friend and the "lighting him up", that was absolutely retarded. Get the dude the next game. I play in a tuesday night league(BQPL - 3 man) I bunkered a guy and he got pissed, he came out and next game and bonus balled me. So i said whatever he wants to play like that, I bunkered him the game after that too(and shot a few more balls than needed). Just go out and get him next game.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Lohman446
I've now effectively been told how stupid it was for me to mention that... and have considered it and chased down the definition I was thinking of
Hmm... and heres another quote on the subject

"Crimes - Felon in Possession of Firearm - Firearm - Definition

For the purpose of the offense of felon in possession of a firearm, a "firearm" is a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air, but does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BBs not exceeding .177 caliber. "

MCL 750.222(b), MCL 750.224f(1)

You did read “does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BBs not exceeding .177 caliver.” right? That would clearly make Paintball Markers NOT “firearms” according to the very statute you posted.


Originally posted by Lohman446
From a Michigan appelate court. Just a thought for those of you that want to escalate a situation well holding that marker - by the way, almost anything over .50 caliper that is designed to launch a projectile falls under the ATFs definition of a destructive device - which would make a firearm offense seem minor (and people were prosecuted for some high end "potato" guns). My point is this - they are equipment, toys to us, but if we do not use them responsibly an overzeaulous district attorney is going to teach us the word plea bargain. I love this sport, I would fight any law that infringed on it, if it was used in a way that infringed on it - I would be one of the first to complain if this was used against a player, however I will not forget that it is the law.
And for this I point back up to what I just posted…..

I would also advise not trying to attempt to determine what the ATF would do in this situation either… because they could care less about it. Trust me.

Please, I would let this drop. You already proved yourself wrong and I didn’t have to post anything other than what YOU posted yourself. ;)

[JesseB]

Originally posted by shartley

You did read “does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BBs not exceeding .177 caliver.” right? That would clearly make Paintball Markers NOT “firearms” according to the very statute you posted.
. ;)

Shartley did you read it? .177 caliber is the size of a really small pellet. Apaintball is roughly .68 thats like 5 times the size man... :eek:

[Surreal]

"not exceeding" .. did you read?

[shartley]

Originally posted by JesseB


Shartley did you read it? .177 caliber is the size of a really small pellet. Apaintball is roughly .68 thats like 5 times the size man... :eek:
I think YOU may need to go back and read it again. A paintball is NOT a BB. Do you know what a BB is? It does not say a "projectile" not exceeding .177 Caliber, it clearly states a BB.

:eek: :eek:

Come on folks, please read stuff.... It does not include paintball markers as firearms.

[shartley]

Upon reading it about 10 times, I can see how some might think that statute includes paintball markers, but I don’t think it does. It specifically excludes BB Guns, Airsoft Guns, and similar guns, and in most cases any laws that cover THOSE guns also cover Paintball Markers. After all, those guns actually cause as much if not more damage than a paintball marker does, and actually look more like STANDARD firearms than the average off the shelf paintball marker.

If indeed paintball markers were considered “firearms” in the state of Michigan, every paintball shop would have to have a gun license to sell the equipment. Do they? I don’t live in Michigan so I don’t know. ;)

[rx2]

I don't think it is reasonable to call someone a coward for not fighting, but I also don't think that it is reasonable to characterize fighters as chest-puffing neanderthals. If you don't like to fight, fine. If you do, I can't hold it against you. Morals and right/wrong are pretty grey when you actually analyze the. Sure, you may have handled it differently, but that doesn't mean your way is the de facto correct way.

What I will say - I am not the first here to say it - is that it can be dangerous to engage in confrontation. So, right/wrong aside, fighting isn't always the best thing for your own well being, or for making your life as easy to live as possible. The other individual obviously is a bad judge of his actions, and doesn't logically consider consequences. Considering that, you must take into account the possibility that he may resort to even greater means in order to hurt you. Obviously, he felt he was not wrong in his actions. You contradicted his belief, and he became angrier. You have to ask yourself, then, at what point he would stop. It is impossible to say that he might not be so hot-headed as to wait for you after the game, as you are leaving, and try something more severe. My father was a police officer in a bad part of town, and I have heard of and have seen many minor confrontations resulting in a severe injury or death, because someone had a bruised ego, and a hot head.

So, while it may not be "wrong" to punish someone overtly and physically, it isn't always logical.

That being said, I do believe that no one should go unchecked. After all, if one observes complacency towards his own aggressiveness, he will be more apt to commit aggressive acts in the future, as he forsees no punishment. So, while it isn't always a good idea fight, it is sometimes quite logical to demand rerprisal or restitution. For your own safety, the best way to go is through an authority of some sort, such as the ref.

If the authorities at the field do not satisfy you, or rather do not handle the situation properly, then take action against the field. Speak to the owner, and refuse to play. Boycott the field.

Now, if someone commits repeated infractions, I say go ahead and deck him. Obviously other punishments weren't severe enough...

Enough rambling. It isn't bad or wrong to act as you did, just dangerous. You CAN get yourself killed, or put into a wheelchair. Besides, there are better ways of getting back at people than physical punishment, ways that hurt much more (rubs hands together and laughs sinisterly).

[JesseB]

hmm true...aight but then he posted the part about almost anything over .50 caliber that is quite reasonable. although they probably don't consider a paintball gun as a dangerous weapon as long as it is kept within the respective speed limits and actually shooting paintballs and not marbles or something else solid as a projectile.

With a breakable gelatin capsule at 290 fps it is hardly an AK-47. but with a hard object it could cause some serious damage so that may be taken in consideration also

[Lohman446]

I highly doubt the law has ever been tested, and would hope that it would never be. I would also expect that any competent attorney could argue a jury nullification defense that would keep you from being prosecuted (jury nullification is not technically arguing the law, but arguing that the law should not be applied to a defendant for whatever reason - normally an unjust law) Could you imagine "magazine" limits of ten shots as imposed by the Brady Bill. Factually, many many things that people do in life are in technical violation of the law, and I think the law should specifically exclude paintball markers from it. However, as the law sits now paintball markers are in technical violation - again I doubt anyone has tested this. However, for those who use them for undesigned uses (vandalism) - I could see it coming into play. Does it really really matter? Likely not - however, if someone threatened another person with one it would fall under assault laws - and if a district attorney decided it was a firearm I think you would have a hard time proving it was not. And as for threatening someone with on - the law permits the defender to escalate his defense dependent on the threat level - if someone is threatened with a firearm they have a right to respond in kind.

Are paintball guns regulated by the same rules as firearms - NO. Should they be - NO. In at least some states, could they be - technically yes - by the way, perhaps this is a good issue for the NPPL or an organization of paintball manufacturers to consider before it becomes an issue - can anyone say lobbyist?

[shartley]

Originally posted by JesseB
hmm true...aight but then he posted the part about almost anything over .50 caliber that is quite reasonable. although they probably don't consider a paintball gun as a dangerous weapon as long as it is kept within the respective speed limits and actually shooting paintballs and not marbles or something else solid as a projectile.

With a breakable gelatin capsule at 290 fps it is hardly an AK-47. but with a hard object it could cause some serious damage so that may be taken in consideration also
Yes, this is all very true.

But that would require someone to use “ammo” not intended for the marker, or firing it at velocities that are not within the normal operating standards.

With that said, using almost anything in a manner not intended, and for the explicit purpose to cause harm to another person, will most likely result in criminal charges being filed. And filling a super soaker up with a chemical and shooting it at someone would also result in these same charges being filed. And super soakers are not firearms either.

We need to keep even the idea that paintball markers can be associated legally with firearms as far away from the sport and industry as we can. And the legal system thus far does not consider them “firearms” (than God). Can you imagine what would happen in the state of Michigan if they truly DID? I don’t even want to think about it…. but for those who DO.. look no further than to Australia where Paintball Markers ARE lumped in with firearms (the last I knew).

[Lohman446]

I would like to see the industry be proactive about it... ok, and normally the atf with destructive devices uses the words "readily modified" or some such - I was just looking. I do see that the ATF can issue letters releasing certain items from this definition (and was looking for one specific to paintball markers, which I assume is there) - but I do know that the ATF conducted tests and banned paintball silencers specifically... anyways, I would like to think this is not the law, and expect to see the letter specifically stating it does not apply to paintball markers from the ATF - but I would also like to see (which I doubt is there) something such as this in state laws such as Michigans (and Im fairly certain California and many if not most other states) just to avoid future issues. I think this is an issue that the paintball industry needs to be proactive on... btw, I would gladly have someone show me that it has already been done, because I think it is just common sense - but think about the law and common sense.

[JesseB]

this post=example why AO owns PBNation 4 pages and no flames or gibberish just civil discussion and debate....


ok back on topic I am not sure about the Australia thing but I thought they had paintball over there... hmm may have to look into that.

Sad to say that markers and other things are used in unsafe manners everyday. Most sporting firearms would not be considered as dangerous by your definition because they are not intended to be shot at people or to cause harm to people. Tactical firearms on the other hand are to be shot at people but only "evil" people and the people that missuse them at train them upon law enforcement, innocents, or military are in fact using the firearm out of its desired purpose which would not cause the firearm to be dangerous. On the other hand the person using these things to conduct malice should be deemed as dangerous.

[ZCute]

omg iw ish i would have been there i woulda been laughing so hard when your friend lit him up.

[Lohman446]

"We Do not and Can Not ship airguns to New York City and surrounding areas, New Jersey, Michigan, Philadelphia PA or Chicago IL, so PLEASE don't ask, call, E-Mail or order AIRGUNS! We have no control over the laws in your state or city. So, please do not ask us to violate them. If you place an order it will be automatically canceled. Your credit card will not be billed and you will not receive product. All airgun orders will arrive ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED, we do not ship airguns to persons under the age of 18, NO EXCEPTIONS!"

This was a disclaimer from a sight selling a .40 caliper paintball gun AirGunStore.com. Now Im partially pleased with this because it leads me to beleive that Michigan is one of the few hold backs (I read the transcripts from the NJ case that legalized paintball on a challenge - they had been considered a firearm in NJ till then I think it was 1988) Now Im not pleased with this because it appears that Michigan is one of the few hold backs - whats up with that? As such I would hope that someone with some financial backing would take the time to try to resolve the Michigan law, to clearly exclude paintball markers as firearms? Tom, you there?

[Lohman446]

Here are the proper steps to legally purchase a paintball gun in MI - btw, if you follow these steps you have legally admitted that your paintball gun is a firearm, and thus are subject to assault and battery prosecution for using it. Not to mention a purchase permit to buy it, a safety inspection.... so, maybe I need a PO box in Montanna or something... On the plus side I can contact my state representitive, if he has time he might be able to help. At this point I am going to assume that common sense rules... and if this law is so limited, perhaps it can be changed.

I dont have the link to the website I got this off of, sorry about that.
Michigan residents, if you would like to purchase something other than a .177 caliber air rifle, we will ship it to you, however you will have to follow the steps below:

1. Inform our company of the item you want to purchase.
2. The item will be shipped to the designated dealer/retailer in your area. Your job is to find a participating dealer/retailer and let us know where to ship your gun.
3. Go to your local police department to obtain a Permit to Purchase the airgun. Each airgun purchase must have a separate Permit.
4. After the Permit is issued to you by the Police take it to the gun store where your gun will be shipped.
5. After the Permit is presented to the store and the fee is paid they will hand over the airgun to you.
6. Take the airgun back to the police department, where they will conduct a safety check and ballistics test.
After it is determined that the gun is safe and tests are conducted you will be ready to take the airgun home.

[Blazestorm]

Although I'm against what you did wicked... I would have done the same.

How I react to **** like that, Show them not to pull it again. Sick of people being little *****es, its a game, not something that you're going to lose anything on. I would have just taken the shot in the neck and turned around and lit him up. IF he even had the guts to pull the trigger which most people don't.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
whoops. Let me refrase that one.


ok no i didnt hit him. It was more of a push.

I doubt that.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
ya dont get me wrong im sure there are plenty of guys that could whip my *** in a second. But im no pussy i know how to fight and I do it very well. But if someone does kick my *** some day. Good for him. I probably deserved it.

The Language!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
Im the last person that wants to bring fighting into paintball. Its just I reacted without thinking I guess. I care a lot about our sport and the image that we put out. The last thing I want is a paintball tourney to end up like a hockey game or a Raiders game.


Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't be fighting while playing. How can you get so pissed when getting shot while playing paintball? Give me a break. If you get that pissed off when playing for getting shot, being someone being a jerk or not, you need to just not play.

[Recon by Fire]

Fighting and paintball, two things that should not be together. If you want to fight, go to the gym and get in the ring :) Do try to remember that it is a game.

[rkjunior303]

I guess it's time for my 2 cents..

Well, resorting to fighting is stupid in anything.. I mean, especially in a RecBall game.. This isn't the World Cup. BUT, If it happened to me, I (and it sounds like you) defnietly would've treated the situation alot different if given a moment to think. As for the gun to the neck - now I forget why exactly this event happened but the minute that gun went to my neck, I would protect myself because I would feel my safety would be endangered. When your that close to the neck, you are too easily able to get under the mask. I don't know about you but I love my eyesight. I would protect myself. Although, Pushing the other person might have set off the marker, too - so its a catch 22.

tough decision.

[nitewolf_9]

I'd like to say I would have acted mature and done the right thing in that situation, but if some little punk aimed a paintball gun at my neck I'd have to say I would have picked him up and thrown him into a tree. That'll learn 'im.

[DWill]

Unfortunely it does not sound like the kid learned his lesson, especially if he give you the middle finger as you were leaving the parking lot. Was he kicked off the field too? I sure hope so because he deserves just as much as you and your friend to be banned from the field. You were definately a bit hot headed there and handled the getting shot in the back situation poorly although I will not critize you for defending yourself when he held the barrel to your neck. It is my personal belief that fighting should be an absolute last resort, although I am easily able to break a few bones myself. Keep paintballing, use your brain and listen to fatmans sage advice :)

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Let me clear a few things up.

When I first got shot in the back, I didnt no where it came from but I went ahead and immediately put my hand up and walked towards the dead zone (10 feet away in this case) confused. Then my friend yelled. it was that M f'er right there.

So then I was pissed and in all the arguing, im sure I was cussing a lot and im sure I was yelling. But at no time did I threaten to hit him or anything like that. But ya I called him about every name that came to mind. He couldnt handle my whits making him look stupid in front of his friends so he jumped back at me with a barrel in my neck.

O and Ill add he was there with a group of guys and some chick so maybe he thought he was cool by putting a barrel in someone's neck, I dont know.


And lastly for whoever questioned me...No I did not punch him in the face. He had a mask on. Tell me what hitting someone in the mask would accomplish. I simply hit his barrel away from my neck and threw my body weight into him and pushed him down. (actually it was quite jackie chanish)
:)

My friend then tore into him only because he had opened up on me from his position in the grass.

[breg]

Hmmmm, wow. I really don't know how I would have acted in that situation.
Being a non violent person, I don't think I would have shoved him. I guess I'm scary enough that I would have not had to do anything to him.
Sorry Wicked, but I have to say you were in the wrong in this one. I know he shot you from out of bounds, and then put his barrel to your neck. You just have to think the thing through. I don't know, but if you become a problem child at a field, won't you be permantly banned? Is it really worth it? I mean it. Dude, it's more than just fighting. Don't you know that once you trun 18, you can be arrested for fighting someone who is not 18? Or yu can be arrested for fighting in general. An arrest record is not something you want.
I've always felt that violence is a last resort. I know you've heard it before: You can't solve your problem with you fists.
I'm not trying to judge, I'm trying to show a little concern for a fellow baller. I guess I could sum it up in just be careful, and think before you act.
Keep it cool,
Breg


EDIT: Is this kid related to Jeremy Salm?

[MattG]

I hope the creator of the tread reads this but i thought the whole situation was handled good. If a guy shot me when he was out i would of got in his face but i would have gotten a ref too. If he stuck a barrel in my general direction agin i would drop my baby (my mag) and push his gun out of my way and deck him several times. Then pick up my mag and tell him to leave before i get mad. If i got kicked out for it well then no biggie i had it coming. The only thing out of line was the guy in the dead box in my opinion!

[Blazestorm]

I go on instincts. I don't think straight when someone pisses me off. I do stupid stuff and don't think about consequences, many people do the same and It's something we can't handle. If I'm going to get kicked out of a field for getting in someones face for doing something like that, than the field sucks and I shouldn't go there. I've seen worse at my local fields and we just make them sit out. Sitting out is worse than leaving imo. Because you have to SIT... and WAIT... and stare at everyone else having a good time. Leaving all you think about is how crappy you think the field is run and how horrible it is, which is very easy to do.

As I said before, wicked_ways : Although I disagree with what you did, I would have done the same. If someone did that to you would you drop your gun and surrender or something? He has a paintball marker that shoots little gelatin balls pointing at the back of your head. Not a glock. The right decision would have been to keep walking.

And actually I did get kicked out of a field for 2 months because I wouldn't let them burn my friend's jersey (they hate my friend yet they let him play)

[Shift]

Doesn't anyone here just like to fight for the sake of fighting?

It seems to me that the fact that people are playing paintball shouldnt really have any signifigant detering factor above any other activity.

Hrmm

[joeyjoe367]

Wicked_ways,

There are many of us who would claim to be so mature as to be the "bigger man" and step away from that kind of situation. I do believe that many of us here (mainly the older ones) would have done so.

I would not have been one of those people.

I'm generally an easy going, nice guy. If I've offended someone, or accidently over-shot a player, I will personally apologize for my actions. It's happened before. My friends I play with can attest to that.

but when someone steps out of line like that and personally insults ME in that manner, I would have let 'em have it. I'm not a big guy and I know how to pick my fights so I'm not stupid ( I wouldn't take on stone cold steve austin).

I have a short temper when it comes to these kinds of situations. Especially when I feel threatened.

If someone put the barrel of their loaded and ready paintgun to my neck, I sure as hell would feel threatened. I could imagine what a point-blank shot could do to your neck; perhaps if it hit an arterial in your neck.

Although I will say that you need to take the advise of those who said that you made a bad decision, I want to add that you shouldn't feel bad about what you did. You did what 90% of us would have done at your age (probably the same as mine) considering the situation. I believe people forget what the heat of anger, frustration, and contempt can do to you.

besides, who are we to judge you?

[Blazestorm]

/me claps for joey.

you said the same thing I said... but... like... it was a lot better english so it sounded mroe intelligent.

Joey, get in the chat or on AIM .... nnnnoooowww

[shartley]

Originally posted by Lohman446
"We Do not and Can Not ship airguns to New York City and surrounding areas, New Jersey, Michigan, Philadelphia PA or Chicago IL, so PLEASE don't ask, call, E-Mail or order AIRGUNS! We have no control over the laws in your state or city. So, please do not ask us to violate them. If you place an order it will be automatically canceled. Your credit card will not be billed and you will not receive product. All airgun orders will arrive ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED, we do not ship airguns to persons under the age of 18, NO EXCEPTIONS!"

This was a disclaimer from a sight selling a .40 caliper paintball gun AirGunStore.com. Now Im partially pleased with this because it leads me to beleive that Michigan is one of the few hold backs (I read the transcripts from the NJ case that legalized paintball on a challenge - they had been considered a firearm in NJ till then I think it was 1988) Now Im not pleased with this because it appears that Michigan is one of the few hold backs - whats up with that? As such I would hope that someone with some financial backing would take the time to try to resolve the Michigan law, to clearly exclude paintball markers as firearms? Tom, you there?
The reason most of those places are listed is because of local restrictions, not state restriction. Also, people in NJ buy markers all the time. Also, their 18 thing, that is pretty standard, but not all dealers follow it… less so with mail order. There are also areas in the country that do not sell Alcohol, yet the state they are in ALLOWS it. ;) And just because something is not to be sold, does not mean it is something other than what it is… i.e. firearm or not.


Originally posted by Lohman446
Here are the proper steps to legally purchase a paintball gun in MI - btw, if you follow these steps you have legally admitted that your paintball gun is a firearm, and thus are subject to assault and battery prosecution for using it. Not to mention a purchase permit to buy it, a safety inspection.... so, maybe I need a PO box in Montanna or something... On the plus side I can contact my state representitive, if he has time he might be able to help. At this point I am going to assume that common sense rules... and if this law is so limited, perhaps it can be changed.

I dont have the link to the website I got this off of, sorry about that.
Michigan residents, if you would like to purchase something other than a .177 caliber air rifle, we will ship it to you, however you will have to follow the steps below:

1. Inform our company of the item you want to purchase.
2. The item will be shipped to the designated dealer/retailer in your area. Your job is to find a participating dealer/retailer and let us know where to ship your gun.
3. Go to your local police department to obtain a Permit to Purchase the airgun. Each airgun purchase must have a separate Permit.
4. After the Permit is issued to you by the Police take it to the gun store where your gun will be shipped.
5. After the Permit is presented to the store and the fee is paid they will hand over the airgun to you.
6. Take the airgun back to the police department, where they will conduct a safety check and ballistics test.
After it is determined that the gun is safe and tests are conducted you will be ready to take the airgun home.
Well, one would think you would know what site you took that off, you DID after all quote it.

Yes, that indeed looks like a standard firearms permit requirement check list… but with modification. But I don’t need a permit to buy a firearm. Do people need a permit to PURCHASE a firearm in Michigan? And I most certainly don’t need a ballistics test and safety test when purchasing a firearm. Do people need these by law when purchasing a firearm in Michigan? If not, this is not standard firearm procedures and not because they consider a paintball marker a firearm.

I just checked with ActionVillage and processed an order (minus paying for it) and they didn’t give me any problems putting in a MI address (I used Detroit with proper zip code).

I just checked with Exress Paintball.com and processed an order (minus paying for it) and they didn’t give me any problems putting in a MI address (I again used Detroit with proper zip code.).

I would think that any random test of paintball equipment sites would show some sort of warning, disclaimer, or similar statement as you have posted above, but none of the sites I have seen have them.

I will however, contact the State of MI today and see what they have to say on the matter… or at least a reputable paintball field or outlet in MI. There HAS to be one. :) Heck, I have never heard of a person from MI having a problem buying a paintball marker, and you would think that at some point it would have come up here on AO. But it hasn’t….. at least since I have been a member and reading AO (which is longer than what my member date shows ;) )

If you can find the site you took that information from, it would be most helpful. I am not saying you are wrong, I am however saying that this does not make sense nor is something I have seen before. And you would think it would be right out in the open since MI is a good sized state and it would affect EVERY marker company’s sales.

[Crighton]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz



hahahahaha I got a good laugh there. My friend can beat up your friend. My big brother can beat up your big brother. LOL :rolleyes: hahaha

Wasn't ment to be taken like that but. Hey your 17 nothing can harm you. At least until the real world slaps you in the face.

[penguinpunk555]

just pop 3 or 6 in the chest and keep playing

[Potatoboy]

Originally posted by Lohman446
Here are the proper steps to legally purchase a paintball gun in MI - btw, if you follow these steps you have legally admitted that your paintball gun is a firearm, and thus are subject to assault and battery prosecution for using it. Not to mention a purchase permit to buy it, a safety inspection.... so, maybe I need a PO box in Montanna or something... On the plus side I can contact my state representitive, if he has time he might be able to help. At this point I am going to assume that common sense rules... and if this law is so limited, perhaps it can be changed.

I dont have the link to the website I got this off of, sorry about that.
Michigan residents, if you would like to purchase something other than a .177 caliber air rifle, we will ship it to you, however you will have to follow the steps below: *snip*

As a Michigan resident for all of my life, and someone who's played paintball for years, and has worked in a paintball store for 6 months, I think i'm a reasonable authority to say that this is not true.

To the best of my knowledge this has never been true.

Handguns require the standard Federal Permits and procedures.

Rifles are still available. And anyone can buy a paintball marker. However most stores have a policy that you must be over the age of 18 to purchase a marker, as it saves calls from upset parents!

*added* If the paintball marger, or airsoft pistol for that matter is used in the act of commiting a crime, it is then considered a deadly weapon. So random paintball shootemups, can be prosecuted as assault with a deadly weapon, or assault to do great bodily harm.

[Duke Henry]

Geez, all the hating going on! Remember when you went to the field to have fun and play according to the rules?

If someone shoots me while I am playing and they are out, I call a ref. If no refs, I leave the field because this field should have refs to do the job that you pay them to do.

If I want to go somewhere to fight people, I will go a family reunion! ;)

[dansim]

first i would have shot him then yelled at him for shooting me and if he stuck a gun barrel in my neck hes gonna need help of teh field cause i would destroy him and his gun

[Smitty2k1]

I actually think ya did the right thing man, maybe i wouldnt have punched him, but like taken his gun THEN punched him.

I dont want to have people think Im a hard-*** or anything but you cant be pushed around all the time, he shot him, they may have suspended him for a game or two, which is TOTAL BS.

Well I dont know where Im going with this, but the guy had it comin he really did.

EDIT:
On second thought, I wouldve knocked his gun to the ground, given him one good punch, and then put him in a head lock or something to keep him in control and wait for a ref... I think that wouldve been reasonable

[crankydan]

Wicked,

IM just wondering what the Refs were doing will this was taking place. If any of you guys have ever Reffed, you should know that this should had never gotten to this point. I Ref quit a bit, and when I’m on the field it is my responsibility to make sure things don’t go fubar. The guy that shot you should of been removed from the game, even if you did step out of bounds. If he didn’t like it then he would of been gone for the day. Our field clearly states in the wavier that "NO ONE ARGUES WITH A REF". Have I made bad calls, sure, do I take any crap from players, NEVER. I would have to blame the field owner and the Refs for not taking control of the field and situation.

[xmetal2001]

I've kicked people like you off a field; but no, never been kicked off myself.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by crankydan
Wicked,

IM just wondering what the Refs were doing will this was taking place. If any of you guys have ever Reffed, you should know that this should had never gotten to this point. I Ref quit a bit, and when I’m on the field it is my responsibility to make sure things don’t go fubar. The guy that shot you should of been removed from the game, even if you did step out of bounds. If he didn’t like it then he would of been gone for the day. Our field clearly states in the wavier that "NO ONE ARGUES WITH A REF". Have I made bad calls, sure, do I take any crap from players, NEVER. I would have to blame the field owner and the Refs for not taking control of the field and situation.


uhh the place i was playing is understaffed and they only had to refs watching our prabably 30 on 30 game. The field had a bunch of buildings and you cant see acrosss the field. There was a ref kind of near us but he wasnt paying attention at first. that all happened really fast.

[Lohman446]

I would like to take a moment here to clarify - paintball markers have not been subject to the same laws as firerms in Michigan (thank god) - however, because MI firearm law uses compressed air as a system of propellant in their definition of a firearm, they do technically fall into the same category - this is not enforced to markers but, as scary as it is, could be.

Yes, to purchase a handgun (most paintball markers fall under MI definition of handgun if they are indeed a firearm) you have to have a purchase permit or a concealed carry permit. You then have to bring the gun in for a safety inspection (a joke what they do).

I would like to see the definition in MI clearer, to exclued paintball markers clearly. Just for the record, NJ had similar wording, and a paintball marker was considered a firearm, it ended up going to court and the judge there ruled that the marker was not a firearm...

I am not in favor of paintball markers being restricted, I am glad they are not. I am concerned that the law as it stands, could technically consider a paintball marker a firearm in MI - making a whole lot of us felons (got records of all the PB markers sold in your store that meet regulations, that minor playing with the pistol, the fact you are aiming and discharging a firearm at a person). This is really just a point I wanted to bring up - hoping that someone with more ability than I could address this situation.

We do have to figure out though if paintball markers are considered firearms by MI law - I think that technically they are and have just been overlooked. If they indeed are we need to, as a group, figure out how to get that law changed (laws that are overlooked should not be in the book). Perhaps the same wording as the Canadian provision that excluded paintball markers having to do with the force of impact...

Look for a different thread on this subject - I will start later tonight - I think this is an issue all of us PBers in Michigan need to address, before some idiot district attorney who does not understand that this is a game, applies the legal definition of firearm in MI to us.

[Lohman446]

I moved the discussion of legality under MI law to its own thread
Automags.Org Online Forums > Automag Owners Forums > Paintball Talk > Markers a firearm under Michigan law?

hmm... not a good link.. but there it is anyways - I think this is an important discussion to this sport, at least to those of us who play, or sell products into, Michigan.

[Shift]

We should start a fight club... and i think that all the people complaining about the original dudes choices are either just extremly passive kids, or middle aged guys who think they are wise. :eek:

anyone here know of any good forum about favorite automag barrels/ paint matches???

[Jtpaintball17]

well here is my opinion on the matter

by the way im 15.. just to fill u guys (and girls) in.;l

both of you were wrong for your actions... but... if anyone and i mean ANYONE held and object to my throat... i dont care if he was holdin a pop-sicle stick to my throat i would have layed his "rear-end" out in a second... i do not take personal threats lightly at all. Now onto your buddy..well i cant understand y he did it... he just wasted 1/2 a hopper of paint on some punk who thought he was the ref of that situation. i honestly think u handled it quite well by only giving him a shove. but like many other people said.. take your elsewhere.. dont wreck it for the others. but overall i think u handled ur self well... when it comes to situations like that, i have an EXTREMELY SHORT FUSE.

lets put it this way "if you threaten me in a way like that... ur not gonna be goin home holdin ur gun... ur gonna be goin to the hospital while trying to hold your jaw in place. ( but then again maybe not..i heard prohbation sucks..and thats if i get lucky).........a paintball field is not a boxing ring.. but on the other hand a parking lot alwayz works as a make-shift ring...........


ALWAYZ REMEMBER.... THE DAY YOU STOP HAVING FUN PLAYING PAINTBALL.. IS THE DAY YOU SHOULD STOP PLAYING PAINTBALL.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

why did my friend tear into the guy?

my friends have my back and I have theirs. Whether it be on a paintball field or an abandonned parking lot. If **** goes down I have the comfort of knowing my friends will be there with me.

You guys are telling me that if your friend was unarmed and getting shot repetatively by some punk you would stand there with a dumb look on your face, holding your own marker and do nothing?

[gam-e]

the shove is just cool IMO, a parking lot fight is not. i would not be satisfied with the shove, and i would find a way to meet this guy off the property.

cool, your friend helped you out, half a hopper wasn't needed. ive got friends, they would help me, they dont fight for me. ive also had some friends who used to fight with me in unfair numbers...thats just wrong, and im not that person anymore. i was a punk with a bad attittude. Im 17 too, and i don't take mess from people, thats just how i grew up, someone tells me to STFU, they better be able to make me. It may sound stupid, and it is, but I have lost my share of fights because a grown man (usually 19-25) has stepped up to the plate. I don't start mess, I finish mess, and usually if my friends are getting heat, im the one who ends up fighting because i step up for them. The new crowd of people i hang out with is usually passive.

i think another important aspect of this, was how old was this kid (4 pages is a lot to read)?

Dion

[RTsparky]

Originally posted by Brak
dont listen to these "mature" people. they just call themselves mature when the real thing is that they dont GOT NO BALLS!! SUCKAS!!!

Rock on Brak, and all u supposedly "mature" people out there, i highly doubt any of you wouldnt have done something to get a F****** loaded paintgun barrel from ur neck. i dont think id call that maturity, more like stupidity for letting a person with the balls to friggin put the barrel to ur neck in the first place, to keep it there. so i would have reacted the same as wicked ways if not worse. and screw the morons for kickin u out when he started it. u were just defending urself.

[jdev]

call it a longshot here...

but i dont think ANY of you here could say that you would have not reacted in such a manner had you had a marker barrel put to your neck, REGARDLESS OF THE REASON.

if something like this is done, it is immediately precieved and processed as a threat. there is no other way about it. they are not placing that barrel to your neck to tell you how cold it is... plain and simple.

nobody here could say, that if we (you and me) were in a game together, had a heated "debate"/"exchange of choice words" and I came up to you and put a barrel to your neck, AND THREATENED TO SHOOT YOU.. (regardless of what you said to me before) would you not try to defend yourself by AT LEAST pushing me away.

It is every humans animalistic instinct to try and fight back. its exactly what scared animals in the wild do when cornered, they attack because they have no other defense, such is the same for you.

sure, at the time of things, you MAY think hey, lets try and talk this out.. but there will be the thought train of..

ok, this person has a live marker against my neck. he could pull his trigger (intentionally or not, in a volitile situation, this person could be shaking from being nervous and accidentally pull the trigger on their marker) and shoot me in the face, causing me posible loss of sight. he could also pull his trigger and hit me right in the windpipe/adams apple, causing me almost instant death...

you think of that, and you react. and let me tell you... when my safety and well being is in risk of being compromised, I do what i can, kicking and screaming to preserve my safety and well being.. and if it means desimating the person with the marker to my neck.. so be it.

i think many of you would react the same way if put in the same situation. (not the priors to the marker in the neck.. having the acutual marker in your neck. agian there are some of you that would have resolved the situation before it got that far... but im saying, had it not been resolved, and you had a marker to your neck)

so again, as i said in a previous post.. sure, this could have been sorted out other ways, but it wasnt.

wicked did what im sure he thought was in his best interest to protect himself from any type of un-necessary injury..


.joe.

[raehl]

First, I've come to the conclusion that not only are a good deal of the people posting in this thread justifiably labelled immature, they're justifiably labelled downright stupid as well.

You know what I do when people try to start stuff with me at the field? The same thing I've done as a result of years of participation in sports: I ignore them; totally block them out, because that's what players who are *GOOD* will do. Anything else is detracting from the game. And, frankly, because I have nothing to prove to an immature, insecure 17 year old.

And anyone who takes it upon themselves to physically attack me with their paintball marker or otherwise is going to find themselves sitting in a jail cell or at the receiving end of a nasty civil lawsuit. What the poster's friend did (shooting a player for 7-10 seconds) could be prosecuted as felony assault with a deadly weapon. Once you take athletic equipment and use it outside the context of the game, or even outside the regular mechanics of the game in the game, to cause physical harm, that's assault. And yes, paintball markers can be considered deadly weapons. Think about the possibility of spending the next few years behind bars next time you're thinking about making an *** of yourself. And don't think I'm making it up - I got a call from a public defender just last week asking for help defending a guy facing assault with a deadly weapon charges for misusing a paintball marker. (My response, of course, was that her client deserved whatever he was going to get.)


If I were a field owner, none of you would ever be at my field again. I wouldn't need my paying customers dealing with twits. You may think you've proven that you have "big balls", but all you've really demonstrated is that you havn't a clue. Customers seeing other customers fight each other. Yeah, that's good for business.


Congratulations in starting a "Hey everyone, look how much of a twit I am" thread.


- Chris

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
why did my friend tear into the guy?

my friends have my back and I have theirs. Whether it be on a paintball field or an abandonned parking lot. If **** goes down I have the comfort of knowing my friends will be there with me.

You guys are telling me that if your friend was unarmed and getting shot repetatively by some punk you would stand there with a dumb look on your face, holding your own marker and do nothing?
But you are leaving out a very important aspect…. YOU disarmed yourself. LOL You clearly stated that YOU put your marker down and shoved him. Then HE shot you like he SAID he would do if you touched him.

So, yes, if a “friend” of mine deliberately sported for a fight, tossed down his own marker and was shot I would let him get shot. I would then call him a term heard often on “That 70’s Show” (and said by Red). The paintball field is not the O.K. Corral and unless you are PLAYING the game, that is what your friends thought it was. They could have knocked the marker out of his hands, but chose to SHOOT him (for 8-10 seconds as you say).


Originally posted by joey d
call it a longshot here...

but i dont think ANY of you here could say that you would have not reacted in such a manner had you had a marker barrel put to your neck, REGARDLESS OF THE REASON.

if something like this is done, it is immediately precieved and processed as a threat. there is no other way about it. they are not placing that barrel to your neck to tell you how cold it is... plain and simple.

nobody here could say, that if we (you and me) were in a game together, had a heated "debate"/"exchange of choice words" and I came up to you and put a barrel to your neck, AND THREATENED TO SHOOT YOU.. (regardless of what you said to me before) would you not try to defend yourself by AT LEAST pushing me away.

It is every humans animalistic instinct to try and fight back. its exactly what scared animals in the wild do when cornered, they attack because they have no other defense, such is the same for you.

sure, at the time of things, you MAY think hey, lets try and talk this out.. but there will be the thought train of..

ok, this person has a live marker against my neck. he could pull his trigger (intentionally or not, in a volitile situation, this person could be shaking from being nervous and accidentally pull the trigger on their marker) and shoot me in the face, causing me posible loss of sight. he could also pull his trigger and hit me right in the windpipe/adams apple, causing me almost instant death...

you think of that, and you react. and let me tell you... when my safety and well being is in risk of being compromised, I do what i can, kicking and screaming to preserve my safety and well being.. and if it means desimating the person with the marker to my neck.. so be it.

i think many of you would react the same way if put in the same situation. (not the priors to the marker in the neck.. having the acutual marker in your neck. agian there are some of you that would have resolved the situation before it got that far... but im saying, had it not been resolved, and you had a marker to your neck)

so again, as i said in a previous post.. sure, this could have been sorted out other ways, but it wasnt.

wicked did what im sure he thought was in his best interest to protect himself from any type of un-necessary injury..


.joe.
As you say, it could have been stopped WAY before the barrel incident. But he was sporting for a fight. Well, thank God it was only at a paintball field using paintball markers, or he would have been dead… no matter how many times his “pals” shot the other guy.

He was NOT just doing what he thought was in his best interest to protect himself. It is a simple truth that you can’t put yourself in a situation (by egging on a fight) where you have to “defend” yourself and then call it self defense when someone else makes the first move. And depending on the situation, the person who makes the first move (be it with or without a weapon) can be found to be the one actually defending themselves. Folks need to get a clue.

[rathbaster]

Wow, 4 pages.

I’ve thought about this post since I stumbled across this forum a day or so ago. I don’t have sage advice or lots of great wisdom, but I do have opinions.

(BTW: I’m a 35 year old, stock class rec ball player if that makes any difference.)

To answer the title of the post, no, I've never been thrown off a paint ball field. I agree, they should make a rule at your field that dead guys don't talk or shoot. (He should have had his barrel plug in anyway.)

To the opinion part:

Wicked: You were wrong. The other guy was wrong. You got thrown off the field. Learn from the mistake.

(Steps up onto soap box)

All you 19+ year old (Except the few who are offering real sage advice, you know who you are.) Calling a 17 year old immature is, well, kinda foolish. He’s 17 after all, that means he should be immature. Bringing up all kinds of “legal matters”, “think with the big head”-general preaching is counterproductive. He’s 17, he got in a fight (no I don’t condone that sort of behavior) and he got punished. Hopefully he’ll learn from his error. (Hopefully so to will the other guy.)

First of all, think back to your youth. When you were 17 how would you have reacted? How many people did you know who were 17 had “short tempers”? Likely, a lot if not all of them. 17 year old guys carry their anger closer to the surface, and they have no life experience to fall back on to give them guidance. What you take for “maturity” takes time to develop, we aren’t born with it. When I was 17 I might have reacted similarly, I don’t know. I know that even at 35 I still do the occasional stupid thing, make a poor judgement call or act immature for a moment.

Second of all, here’s a guy asking for your opinion, not a lecture. A few guys have given very good, fatherly advice. To you, I tip my hat. A lot of you guys are just coming down on him like a ton of bricks. You don’t like the way he behaves, but only offer a critique as if he is a fully mature adult with years of life experience. Obviously he has questions about what he did, otherwise he wouldn’t be posting on the incident. When I was 17, I don’t think I would have asked something like this in a public venue nor would I have had the patience to sit and respond in a (mostly) civil manner to some of the things that have been said here. When I was 17 I knew everything, no one older than me could tell me anything. I grew out of that and became “mature”. In other words I became an adult.

Thirdly: Where were the adults? I don’t mean just the refs, but the adult players? On the fields I frequent, no one under 18 is allowed an unsupervised game. Some fields let me and my friends self ref, but we’re older and established at the field (they know we’re not yahoos). Some fields allow no unsupervised games regardless of how well they know you. If any adult was present and allowed the disagreement to get that far, they are just as culpable because any adult present is by definition more mature and therefore is expected to provide guidance and good examples. Just because a teenager pursues sports doesn’t mean he should be left unsupervised.

(steps off soap box)

Wicked: I admire your tenacity in keeping on this board and enduring the slings and arrows of some of the guys posting. Play with honor and integrity.

[Recon by Fire]

Originally posted by Brak
dont listen to these "mature" people. they just call themselves mature when the real thing is that they dont GOT NO BALLS!! SUCKAS!!!


Spoken like a true punk kid of today's society. No balls? You may be surprised to find that many of us who do not condone the immature acts cited prior in this thread have been in situations that would make you pee your pants.

I completely agree with Raehl's post, neither of you would ever play at that field again, ever. The immaturity of these players is exactly what holds paintball back from being a premiere sporting event.

[gam-e]

thats rediculous no it isnt. you have your jack***s in every sport, not just jack***s but just losers

Deryl Strawberry - baseballs coke head extroadinarre
Barry Bonds - until recently was the jerk of baseball
John Mackinroe* - Tennis jerk to the max
Dennis Rodman - kicked a camera guy
i dont know the foot ball player....the one who killed someone in a hit and run
Michael Irvin - coke, possibly rape
Mike Tyson - Need i get into this RAPE CANNIBAL AHH!

There are wipers in paintball, as there are cheaters in every sport

and you are saying lets say if a kid playing high school football speared someone in the back after the play was over, that its his fault and others who do that if it doesn't become a pro sport....not likely sir.

just to clear maybe something up.

Dion

[wobbles82]

I agree with the majority you guys were outta line...well mostly on your friend lighting him up. You knocking him down when a barrel was on you was a good idea in my opinion, but after he shot you that should have been it. Anyway, I remember at practice last week PBMegastore and Axis had a game, and Megastore shot out a guy from Axis whom then wasnt walking back to the dead box because he was too busy yelling and whatnot. So the guy from Megastore shot about a hopper and a half at this guys nuts...literally. Lets just say a small fight broke out, everybody was friends in the end but nobody got kicked out surprisingly. I was kicked out of a field once because I was at Picasso Lake Paintball and lifted my mask up when the refs told me it was ok after a game (walking back to the main center). And the owner pulled me and said it was unorderly of me...the refs didnt back me up or nothing. :D

[raehl]

It was his insistence on spending 3 pages justfying his behavior as ok that got the ton of brocks thrown on him.

As for him being "only 17", so? When I was 17, I dare say most of the other 17 year olds I knew were mature enough to not run around starting fights at the field, or escalating fights for that matter. This has nothing to do with being 17, it has to do with THIS particular person not being responsible. Are more 17 year olds irresponsible than 35 year olds? Sure. Are most 17 year olds irresponsible? Not really.

This guy caused a problem because he's a problem-causer, not because he's 17, and he even refuses to recognize that it IS his fault.

Quit making excuses for his poor behavior.

- Chris

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

"I'm immature and 17, so i'm allowed to do stupid things". I'll have to remember that. Try using that at your parole hearing. See how far it gets you.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
"I'm immature and 17, so i'm allowed to do stupid things". I'll have to remember that. Try using that at your parole hearing. See how far it gets you.


umm...nobody said that

he simply stated that 17 year olds are commonly quick to anger an immature. He did not condone it or use it as an excuse. Its true and you know its true.

Im not blaming my actions on being 17. But if I was 35 I probably wouldnt have reacted the same way.



Originally posted by raehl
[BThis guy caused a problem because he's a problem-causer, not because he's 17, and he even refuses to recognize that it IS his fault. [/B]

yea buddy you nailed it on the head. Im a problem causer. When watching games from the dead box one of my favorite things to do is shoot players that are still playing. And when they confront me, I enjoy sticking my barrel in their neck and threatening them.:rolleyes:

^^^thats a problem causer


I know what I should have dont though. I should have let him keep his bushy barrel in my neck. I mean in a heated situation there is no way that his light, easily agitated bushy trigger, would fire.:rolleyes: So next time someone has a barrel to my neck, I will just let him keep it there. :rolleyes: Maybe that would be the mature thing to do. :rolleyes:

So tell me what did I do that was SO wrong and SO immature? Maybe when he shot me I shouldnt have confronted him. Ya thats it, if i wouldnt have confronted the dead player he wouldnt have put the barrel to my neck, maybe then I wouldnt have had to knock him down.

Ya well maybe Im just a wierdo then because I would confront him. All of you other mature players would have just smiled at the dead player that shot you, and walked away. Its not like I could ignore him and keep playing, I had already put my hand in the air and started walking off the field. I wasnt about to re-inter the game, I hate it when people do that.


After I pushed him down and he shot me 5 or 6 times, I WAS over it. I wasnt going to pick up my gun and shoot him. I have been playing a lot of years and getting shot from 10 feet away, although not fun, is not the end of the world. It was the point blank shot to the throat that worried me.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by rathbaster
Wow, 4 pages.

I’ve thought about this post since I stumbled across this forum a day or so ago. I don’t have sage advice or lots of great wisdom, but I do have opinions.

(BTW: I’m a 35 year old, stock class rec ball player if that makes any difference.)

To answer the title of the post, no, I've never been thrown off a paint ball field. I agree, they should make a rule at your field that dead guys don't talk or shoot. (He should have had his barrel plug in anyway.)

To the opinion part:

Wicked: You were wrong. The other guy was wrong. You got thrown off the field. Learn from the mistake.

(Steps up onto soap box)

All you 19+ year old (Except the few who are offering real sage advice, you know who you are.) Calling a 17 year old immature is, well, kinda foolish. He’s 17 after all, that means he should be immature. Bringing up all kinds of “legal matters”, “think with the big head”-general preaching is counterproductive. He’s 17, he got in a fight (no I don’t condone that sort of behavior) and he got punished. Hopefully he’ll learn from his error. (Hopefully so to will the other guy.)

First of all, think back to your youth. When you were 17 how would you have reacted? How many people did you know who were 17 had “short tempers”? Likely, a lot if not all of them. 17 year old guys carry their anger closer to the surface, and they have no life experience to fall back on to give them guidance. What you take for “maturity” takes time to develop, we aren’t born with it. When I was 17 I might have reacted similarly, I don’t know. I know that even at 35 I still do the occasional stupid thing, make a poor judgement call or act immature for a moment.

Second of all, here’s a guy asking for your opinion, not a lecture. A few guys have given very good, fatherly advice. To you, I tip my hat. A lot of you guys are just coming down on him like a ton of bricks. You don’t like the way he behaves, but only offer a critique as if he is a fully mature adult with years of life experience. Obviously he has questions about what he did, otherwise he wouldn’t be posting on the incident. When I was 17, I don’t think I would have asked something like this in a public venue nor would I have had the patience to sit and respond in a (mostly) civil manner to some of the things that have been said here. When I was 17 I knew everything, no one older than me could tell me anything. I grew out of that and became “mature”. In other words I became an adult.

Thirdly: Where were the adults? I don’t mean just the refs, but the adult players? On the fields I frequent, no one under 18 is allowed an unsupervised game. Some fields let me and my friends self ref, but we’re older and established at the field (they know we’re not yahoos). Some fields allow no unsupervised games regardless of how well they know you. If any adult was present and allowed the disagreement to get that far, they are just as culpable because any adult present is by definition more mature and therefore is expected to provide guidance and good examples. Just because a teenager pursues sports doesn’t mean he should be left unsupervised.

(steps off soap box)

Wicked: I admire your tenacity in keeping on this board and enduring the slings and arrows of some of the guys posting. Play with honor and integrity.


now here is one of the few guys that have replied that actually makes sense.:)

[Trench_Riader]

Son, you are an idiot.

It's never a good idea to assault people. Assaulting total strangers is an EXTREMELY bad idea. YOu never know what you are getting into.

For example if you followed me out to the parking lot and attacked me this is what I would do. I would simply "turtle up" and attempt to minimise any damage you might do. I would not even attempt to fight back. (but see below) I would call out and make damn sure there were witnesses to the attack. Then when you got your fill, I would make record time calling the police and pressing assault charges. I would then laugh like a donkey while you were handcuffed and hauled away.

However if at any time the assault became more serious and it became a situation were "a resonable person would fear imanent death or serious injury" (the wording of my state's deadly force law) then I would shoot you. Now don't get me wrong, I don't play paintball packing real steel, but rest assured my carry piece is in the car. It's easier than you think to cross that line (just pick up a club or some other impact weapon) and I'm fortunate enough to live in a state that has both legal concealed carry and a very victim friendly set of self defence laws.

In short....stop and think before you act.

"Trench Raider"

[raehl]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz

I know what I should have dont though. I should have let him keep his bushy barrel in my neck. I mean in a heated situation there is no way that his light, easily agitated bushy trigger, would fire.:rolleyes: So next time someone has a barrel to my neck, I will just let him keep it there. :rolleyes: Maybe that would be the mature thing to do. :rolleyes:

So tell me what did I do that was SO wrong and SO immature?

You never should have gotten close enough for him to stick his barrel in your neck in the first place.



You know, it's not like I don'thave any experience with kids on the paintball field or anything - we run plenty of tournaments, which many would say are much more "confrontational" than rec games, with plenty of players around or under 18 years of age.


I have yet to have ANY players get in anything close to a physical altercation. Closest I've had is a player swing a pack in the general direction of a ref, and that play cost his team the tournament and I'm pretty sure doesn't even play our events anymore. That was over a year ago.


Bad behavior is bad behavior.


- Chris

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by Trench_Riader
Son, you are an idiot.

It's never a good idea to assault people. Assaulting total strangers is an EXTREMELY bad idea. YOu never know what you are getting into.

For example if you followed me out to the parking lot and attacked me this is what I would do. I would simply "turtle up" and attempt to minimise any damage you might do. I would not even attempt to fight back. (but see below) I would call out and make damn sure there were witnesses to the attack. Then when you got your fill, I would make record time calling the police and pressing assault charges. I would then laugh like a donkey while you were handcuffed and hauled away.

However if at any time the assault became more serious and it became a situation were "a resonable person would fear imanent death or serious injury" (the wording of my state's deadly force law) then I would shoot you. Now don't get me wrong, I don't play paintball packing real steel, but rest assured my carry piece is in the car. It's easier than you think to cross that line (just pick up a club or some other impact weapon) and I'm fortunate enough to live in a state that has both legal concealed carry and a very victim friendly set of self defence laws.

In short....stop and think before you act.

"Trench Raider"

ya im an ideot for pushing a guy down that had a gun to my throat. Just because everyone does react like you doesnt make me and ideot. Stop being closeminded and ignorrant.

Ya and you took your parking lot example to an unneeded level. I didnt beat the hell out of anybody. I could have. I could have knocked him down and kicked him repeatedly. Did I do that? No I simply knocked him down to get myself out of danger.

you can be the one that takes the shot in the throat and then ill "laugh like a donkey" when your on the ground gasping for breath.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by raehl


You never should have gotten close enough for him to stick his barrel in your neck in the first place.

- Chris


i wasnt anticipating have a barrel shoved in my throat. It wasnt going though my head "dont get to close he might stick his barrel in your neck".

and actually when it comes down to it. I was a respectable couple feet from him and he actually stood up off of the stump he was sitting on and stepped in my face. gun and all.

I admit the situation was avoidable. I shouldnt have gone off on him the way I did. Thats all I see myself doing wrong. Yelling at a player and swearing to the point he felt like sticking his barrel in my throat. That was also partially him tryin to be tuff to his gf.

I dont think I was in the wrong for pushing him. Most would react similar with a barrel to the throat.

[shartley]

But WHY did he feel the need to put the barrel into your neck? You see, that was not a random and totally isolated event. So any actions you took BECAUSE of it are irrelevant…. YOU caused him to feel the need to do that.

The simple truth of the matter is that if you had done what you should have done, it would have never gotten to that point… but you didn’t, and it did. So you can’t now act like you did the “logical” or “manly” thing by pushing him down in self defense. Again, you can’t legally cause a problem and then claim self defense. And you can’t blame it ALL on him shooting you from the dead box… because you should have reported his actions to a Ref or other Staff Member and not taken it upon yourself to “handle” the situation.

All other arguments are simply ignorant. Sorry. I have kids and hear the same types of “justifications” all the time. They don’t hold water in my house, and they sure as heck don’t hold water on a paintball field… or on this forum. And just because others may have done the same thing, it does not mean any of THEM are right either.

What is the real purpose of this thread? I keep asking myself that. Is it so you can have people pat you on the back and say they understand what you did and it is all right? I am confused. Every action you took was wrong, and you can’t blame a single one of your action on the other guy. You had the chance to do the right thing and didn’t take it. And every action from that point on was a direct reaction to your choice of actions.

No, you were not an idiot for pushing someone down who had their barrel at your throat… the idiot thing is letting it get to that point when it is more than obvious that there was no need for ANY of it. And this is what you (and others) seem to want to ignore. But then again, that would mean taking DIRECT responsibility for YOUR actions….. and Lord knows that we can’t have THAT in today’s society. It is always the other guy’s fault…. for EVERYTHING.

Again… I still can’t understand why this thread is even here……………….

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz



i wasnt anticipating have a barrel shoved in my throat. It wasnt going though my head "dont get to close he might stick his barrel in your neck".

and actually when it comes down to it. I was a respectable couple feet from him and he actually stood up off of the stump he was sitting on and stepped in my face. gun and all.

I admit the situation was avoidable. I shouldnt have gone off on him the way I did. Thats all I see myself doing wrong. Yelling at a player and swearing to the point he felt like sticking his barrel in my throat. That was also partially him tryin to be tuff to his gf.

I dont think I was in the wrong for pushing him. Most would react similar with a barrel to the throat.
And there we have it... finally. And you could SEE why he did what he did. What is the difference between trying to be tough in front of your girlfriend, or in front of your “pals”? ;)

Are you looking for people to tell you how tough you are? If THAT is all you are looking for……

You are the toughest person I have ever read about on an internet forum.

I hope that makes everyone feel better now. Now have some cookies and milk. ;) Mind if I have some too? :D

[WicKeD_WaYz]

uhhh thats not what I was going for. I was making a thread to discuss a situation. And thats what we are doing. I never said you HAVE to partake in this discussion.

I know there are plenty of people on AO (like yourself) that take the "mature" route to every situation. Thats why I brought this up. I know a lot of people wouldnt react like me but I know some people here would react worse.

If you think im trying to be tough on the internet your kidding yourself. This is a MESSAGE BOARD. I brought a topic up for discussion. If you dont like it, dont add to it. there are plenty of threads here I dont agree with. I simply stay away from them.

The point of this thread was to have a debate over how people react in situations like this. And thats what we are doing. Everybody has a different opinion.

Or is it Sam's way or the highway? ;)

Ok im not spending my whole fourth debating this though...

I have fuses that need lighting...:) :D

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
uhhh thats not what I was going for. I was making a thread to discuss a situation. And thats what we are doing. I never said you HAVE to partake in this discussion.

I know there are plenty of people on AO (like yourself) that take the "mature" route to every situation. Thats why I brought this up. I know a lot of people wouldnt react like me but I know some people here would react worse.

If you think im trying to be tough on the internet your kidding yourself. This is a MESSAGE BOARD. I brought a topic up for discussion. If you dont like it, dont add to it. there are plenty of threads here I dont agree with. I simply stay away from them.

The point of this thread was to have a debate over how people react in situations like this. And thats what we are doing. Everybody has a different opinion.

Or is it Sam's way or the highway? ;)

Ok im not spending my whole fourth debating this though...

I have fuses that need lighting...:) :D
Well, if it was a debate than I guess folks have spoken. :D

I don’t think you are trying to be tough on the internet, I think you feel you have to show the world you think you are tough all the time, here, at paintball, etc. And guess what? When I was 16-17 I was the same way! :D I would escalate EVERY situation into a physical altercation just to show that I would not put up with ANY crap, from ANYONE.

Was I physically tough? You bet. But I was spiritually weak. I didn’t yet understand that not every situation was a test of my “manhood”, and that believe it or not, most of the time people could care less either way.

This is not a “Sam’s way or the highway” issue. In fact it isn’t even a “Sam’s issue” at all. LOL YOU posted this thread and by your last post it was to hear what folks had to say about it… well, I am one of those folks. ;) And you advocate staying away from threads you don’t agree with, yet in the very same thread admit you could not simply tell a Ref or Staff member what happened and let them deal with it? Don’t you see a slight contradiction of thought processes there?

Look, I am not upset at you. I do however think it is silly to try to argue that anything you did was correct. The only time in the whole thing that made a difference between right and wrong was what you did when he shot you from the dead box, and you failed to do the right thing. Oh well. Life goes on. No one is perfect. But if you expect folks to not speak their minds about it, maybe next time you should not bring your dirty laundry to an open forum and invite comments to be posted.

Again….. I am not upset one bit. I could care less what you do in your life as long as it does not affect mine or my families. If you noticed, I have actually tried to not talk about you personally in an insulting manner, but tried to just focus on the actions. But it is clear that you really don’t WANT folks to be honest and tell you what they think… that is also fine. Now that I know this, I will not bother you with my opinions. ;)

Oh… and have a happy and safe 4th. And I truly mean that. :)

[Athius]

MAN U SHOUld HAVE WAITED FOR A ANOTHER GAME AND BUNKER HIS A$$!!!

[845]

I once got kicked off the field for a game because these stupid kids dove into the opposite side of my bunker and I came around and shot them both. The field owner went nuts and dragged me off yelling this isnt a tournament this is recball. I bet if you played a real tournamnt u would get your *expletive deleted* kicked. Then in the staging area the kids were like good moves. And in the tournamnt are team walked his. I would have seen his point if I had run down the tape on a bunker run but they were in my bunker! I wasnt going to say surrender cause they would have just shot me. They had not made any rules about point blank shooting either in the staging area before games.

[Shift]

You should not feel bad about yourself wick ways. I'm really quite surprised by all the negative responses you have gotten here. Sometimes people are so stuck in their pictures of society that they forget what it means to be real. To me at least, that means stand up for yourself. Being the "bigger" man is a completely seperate issue. Related of course... but seperate in that it is not required for you to be the "bigger" man. Thats a question of personality. Personality is something that only you are accountable for.

I would have done the same thing because thats the way I am. Call me an ******* if you will, but immature/ stupid/ anything like that is unfounded. All it really shows is an inability to comprehend basic human nature and how it relates to human interactions. Being above human nature is kinda of like owning a lexus over a honda. It shows refinement, and control. It does not however show that a man is more mature or respectable or intelligent than any other.

Any given person could react in any givin way in any given situation. Its all about chemicals in our brains. Some would argue that the reactions that wicked displayed in this situation are actually the type of actions that alowed humans to propagate and thrive better than any other species. Once again however, morality is a whole nother issue.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Shift
You should not feel bad about yourself wick ways. I'm really quite surprised by all the negative responses you have gotten here. Sometimes people are so stuck in their pictures of society that they forget what it means to be real. To me at least, that means stand up for yourself. Being the "bigger" man is a completely seperate issue. Related of course... but seperate in that it is not required for you to be the "bigger" man. Thats a question of personality. Personality is something that only you are accountable for.

I would have done the same thing because thats the way I am. Call me an ******* if you will, but immature/ stupid/ anything like that is unfounded. All it really shows is an inability to comprehend basic human nature and how it relates to human interactions. Being above human nature is kinda of like owning a lexus over a honda. It shows refinement, and control. It does not however show that a man is more mature or respectable or intelligent than any other.

Any given person could react in any givin way in any given situation. Its all about chemicals in our brains. Some would argue that the reactions that wicked displayed in this situation are actually the type of actions that alowed humans to propagate and thrive better than any other species. Once again however, morality is a whole nother issue.
LOLROF This is about the most funny thing I have read on AO in a long time… either that or the saddest.

Fine, he showed lack of ANY refinement. He showed no advancement over base level human nature. Now THAT is much better than saying he was immature and exhibited idiotic behavior, isn’t it? And you can’t compare human nature to owning a car. Sorry. LOL

You don’t even understand what you are saying, but doing a bang-up job of attempting to sound intelligent. Being above human nature IS being mature and showing intelligence, and thus NOT being above it would show the opposite. This is pretty basic stuff.

Society my friend is the rising above base human nature and learning to interact with each other in ways that rise above basic human impulses. That is why we teach out children what is right and what is wrong… and teach them to control themselves. That is what being mature is all about. So guess what? Not having any control of your base instincts or impulses IS a sign of immaturity. It is not a sign of being “real”.

And this is not about being the “bigger man”. It is about doing the right thing. And there is a huge difference.

I am seriously shocked that anyone would be surprised at any negative responses this thread gets directed at the actions posted about. And I am actually sad that so many would not only condone, but seem to celebrate the actions being posted about. Even more so I am disappointed that so many would try to act like those who condemn the actions are somehow WRONG for doing so.

[Konigballer]

who woulda thought this thread would've got this far?

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Im not at all surprised at the negative responces. I know there are guys on this board way more mature and responsable than me. I expected plenty of that when I made the thread.

Im actually kind of surprised at some of the more mature members giving me constructive critisism instead of outright bashing me as some of you have done.


-ryan

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
Im not at all surprised at the negative responces. I know there are guys on this board way more mature and responsable than me. I expected plenty of that when I made the thread.

Im actually kind of surprised at some of the more mature members giving me constructive critisism instead of outright bashing me as some of you have done.


-ryan
I seriously hope you do not think of me as one who has bashed you.

I know many here that have also spoken quite frankly about what they think, but fall quite short of bashing as well. Just because someone states an opinion that is not what folks want to hear, or may be negative, it does not in itself constitute “bashing”. And far too often on AO “bashing” is tossed around when what happened was not bashing.

Paintball players are sure funny some times. ;) You can never tell when that tough skin and exterior will become microscopically thin……

[Shift]

Originally posted by shartley

LOLROF This is about the most funny thing I have read on AO in a long time… either that or the saddest.

Fine, he showed lack of ANY refinement. He showed no advancement over base level human nature. Now THAT is much better than saying he was immature and exhibited idiotic behavior, isn’t it? And you can’t compare human nature to owning a car. Sorry. LOL

You don’t even understand what you are saying, but doing a bang-up job of attempting to sound intelligent. Being above human nature IS being mature and showing intelligence, and thus NOT being above it would show the opposite. This is pretty basic stuff.

Society my friend is the rising above base human nature and learning to interact with each other in ways that rise above basic human impulses. That is why we teach out children what is right and what is wrong… and teach them to control themselves. That is what being mature is all about. So guess what? Not having any control of your base instincts or impulses IS a sign of immaturity. It is not a sign of being “real”.

And this is not about being the “bigger man”. It is about doing the right thing. And there is a huge difference.

I am seriously shocked that anyone would be surprised at any negative responses this thread gets directed at the actions posted about. And I am actually sad that so many would not only condone, but seem to celebrate the actions being posted about. Even more so I am disappointed that so many would try to act like those who condemn the actions are somehow WRONG for doing so.




Perhaps i have no idea what im talking about. But maybe i do. You talk about wrong and right as though there is some sort of ultimate truth in this world. Maybe there is... at least I believe there is. Without that, there is nothing that defines what is basic instinct versus what is refined behavior. Any response that a human would make in any case could be refered to as "natural" instinct. What i mean by this is that in the animalistic sence, we are all just doing what is natural to us as humans. For some that means thinking their decisions out. For others, that means going on reaction and instinct. The only thing that seperates maturity and immaturity is what you and what society define as maturity to begin with. And in that circumstance, everyone is right, and everyone is wrong. Who is to define? Religion would be a good start, but unless you say that you are using the bible/ koran/ other book as your basis for what is a correct or incorrect response, you have no basis. If you say... according to the social norm, he was wrong, id agree with you. But i put no stock in the social norm.



Blah

[RTGuy86]

I myself have never been kicked/banned off/from a field but i have kicked several off. I think what you did was kinda stupid and only let this situation get to being words being said and then thats it. if you would have gone about it this way if we would have attacked/shot you oyu would have had a reason to knock the $h*t out of him. I myself while reffing adn in the middle of kicking someone off have had a barrel held to my face and they threatened to shoot all you need to do is give them one of these:rolleyes: and turned around and walked away. I did that once and the kid hit me in the back of the head and then it broke loose. The kid was charged w/ assault and i got away free of charge because he hit me first and the cameras caught him. if he would have hit you(and there were no cameras) im shure that the refs would have stepped in(atleast thats what the refs and myself would have done at my local field) and resolved this problem. but when you reacted you had a adrenaline rush and didnt think twice about knocking the kid s0 you did and i myself have been in the same situation, can we explain it? probably not should/will we make the same mistake? well....... lets hope not. but thats just my .02

[sneakyhacker420]

i've had my armband pulled for accidently entering the field without my goggles on


thats about it...

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by shartley

I seriously hope you do not think of me as one who has bashed you.

I know many here that have also spoken quite frankly about what they think, but fall quite short of bashing as well. Just because someone states an opinion that is not what folks want to hear, or may be negative, it does not in itself constitute “bashing”. And far too often on AO “bashing” is tossed around when what happened was not bashing.

Paintball players are sure funny some times. ;) You can never tell when that tough skin and exterior will become microscopically thin……


no i was not referring to you. Im not sure what that last line meant. But alright.

[raehl]

But frankly, I'm sick of cleaning up the mess people like you create.

You don't exist in your own little vacuum, as much as a wish you did. When you do stupid stuff like that, there are other customers present, perhaps parents, who knows, maybe even a school administrator or a legislator. Those are people who say 'Man, I'm not letting any kids play paintball if they're going to get assaulted by other players.' or 'Man, people who play paintball just get in fights with each other, this isn't the kind of sport I want kids involved in.'

Now, is paintball really that way? No - but these people don't get exposed to a lot of paintball. You get one shot - and all it takes is for some punk like you to happen to go off when someone "important" is giving paintball their one shot to ruin it.

Just like the guy who doesn't get it when the field owner went beserkbecause he 'bunkered' the players onthe other side of his bunker - it doesn't matter if THOSE PARTICULAR players didn't care - they could just as easily have been two 12 year olds playing for their first time who are going to go home with big nasty welts on their back and, assuming even they want to play again, might not be coming back because their parents are not happy with the result.


See, what you guys are missing is your behavior is screwing it up for everyone else, and that's why it ain't ok.


- Chris

[the_next_guy_]

was this "the town" at Penalton? it has string around the edges, so you could not have stepped out of bounds without tripping.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by raehl
But frankly, I'm sick of cleaning up the mess people like you create.

You don't exist in your own little vacuum, as much as a wish you did. When you do stupid stuff like that, there are other customers present, perhaps parents, who knows, maybe even a school administrator or a legislator. Those are people who say 'Man, I'm not letting any kids play paintball if they're going to get assaulted by other players.' or 'Man, people who play paintball just get in fights with each other, this isn't the kind of sport I want kids involved in.'

Now, is paintball really that way? No - but these people don't get exposed to a lot of paintball. You get one shot - and all it takes is for some punk like you to happen to go off when someone "important" is giving paintball their one shot to ruin it.

Just like the guy who doesn't get it when the field owner went beserkbecause he 'bunkered' the players onthe other side of his bunker - it doesn't matter if THOSE PARTICULAR players didn't care - they could just as easily have been two 12 year olds playing for their first time who are going to go home with big nasty welts on their back and, assuming even they want to play again, might not be coming back because their parents are not happy with the result.


See, what you guys are missing is your behavior is screwing it up for everyone else, and that's why it ain't ok.


- Chris


ok I dont know you. And frankly, Im glad I dont know you because you sound like a prick. You sound like some stupid field owner that cares too much about your personal image. I will let YOU be the one that takes a shot to the throat someday. Were you the kid that got picked on in school? LOL Did the bigger kids beat you up and take your lunch money?

All im saying is you seem to have hatred towards us "punks". Hey buddy guess what. If it wasnt for us "punks", this sport would be broke and not near as big as it is. Like it or not most paintball players are within the ages of 15 and 25. The numbers may even be lower than that. A big majority of them would have reacted the same way as me.

I have a challenge for you. Go to your local tournement. Stand on the side with a gun and play Mr. Referee. When you see someone that deserves to be out. Dont bother telling the ref. Just shoot them. Do that 10 times and come back and tell me how many of those "punks" cussed at you.

What im saying is. I reacted the way a lot of people my age in the sport would. I cussed a guy out then defended myself when a barrel was shoved in my neck. PERIOD

So before you go calling me a punk. Go check some stats and see exactly how many of us "punks" fund your precious field or whatever the hell you work for.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by the_next_guy_
was this "the town" at Penalton? it has string around the edges, so you could not have stepped out of bounds without tripping.

you were close. Try towns at tombstone.


If you are familiar with the field its the far side, and basically right in the middle. The boundry marker was knocked over and laying on the ground. Like it always is lol.

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by shartley

I seriously hope you do not think of me as one who has bashed you.

I know many here that have also spoken quite frankly about what they think, but fall quite short of bashing as well. Just because someone states an opinion that is not what folks want to hear, or may be negative, it does not in itself constitute “bashing”. And far too often on AO “bashing” is tossed around when what happened was not bashing.

Paintball players are sure funny some times. ;) You can never tell when that tough skin and exterior will become microscopically thin……

Glad you werent trying to bash him and all, but Im not sure what that last line is if its not a sarcastic bashing phrase for you to get the last word in.

People screw up, move on.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
ok I dont know you. And frankly, Im glad I dont know you because you sound like a prick. You sound like some stupid field owner that cares too much about your personal image. I will let YOU be the one that takes a shot to the throat someday. Were you the kid that got picked on in school? LOL Did the bigger kids beat you up and take your lunch money?

Yeah that's almost relevant. Nobody beat me up in school. I still don't like punks/jerks.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
All im saying is you seem to have hatred towards us "punks". Hey buddy guess what. If it wasnt for us "punks", this sport would be broke and not near as big as it is. Like it or not most paintball players are within the ages of 15 and 25. The numbers may even be lower than that. A big majority of them would have reacted the same way as me.

I've seen 40 year olds curse someone out on the field over things similar to this. I'm also 22 years old and i wouldn't react to the way you did.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
I have a challenge for you. Go to your local tournement. Stand on the side with a gun and play Mr. Referee. When you see someone that deserves to be out. Dont bother telling the ref. Just shoot them. Do that 10 times and come back and tell me how many of those "punks" cussed at you.


You weren't at a tournament, you were playing rec ball.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
What im saying is. I reacted the way a lot of people my age in the sport would. I cussed a guy out then defended myself when a barrel was shoved in my neck. PERIOD


You and the rest of them are all wrong and immature.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
So before you go calling me a punk. Go check some stats and see exactly how many of us "punks" fund your precious field or whatever the hell you work for.


Just because you pay to play at a field, doesn't give you the right to act however you want. You'll learn someday. Or maybe you won't and something like this will happen again. Except maybe he'll pull out a real gun and kill you. Or you'll kill him and go to jail for murder. Oh well.

Seems funny to me that you admitted yourself that you knew people would come down on you for being immature when you posted this. Then you get upset when they do. Why bother even posting it if you knew it was going to upset you. How can you even get upset if you asked their opinion, then get mad when they give it? Cause you don't agree with it?

Doesn't seem like to me that anyone's really bashed you. I think that just might be different interpretation and/or perception.

side note: Sam: stop being so logical. I've always wanted to disagree with you just one time. We always seem to have the same opinion on just about everything. Stop it.:)

[WicKeD_WaYz]

alright im done typing a lot.

it comes down to this.

I got mad. Reacted with harsh words.

He threatened me. I defended myself.


Plain and Simple


You can have any opinion you want but where was I wrong? cussing at the guy? Ya not doing that would have avoided it. But whats done is done.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz



You can have any opinion you want but where was I wrong? cussing at the guy?


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz

Ya not doing that would have avoided it. But whats done is done.

Answered your own question, and i couldn't agree more.

[Shift]

Dude, you should probably read the posts i wrote earlier, and just calm down. Put things in perspective a little man.

God bless America

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

I did read your posts and i totatally disagreed with them. And who's not calm?

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by Trench_Riader

if at any time the assault became more serious and it became a situation were "a resonable person would fear imanent death or serious injury" (the wording of my state's deadly force law) then I would shoot you. Now don't get me wrong, I don't play paintball packing real steel, but rest assured my carry piece is in the car. It's easier than you think to cross that line (just pick up a club or some other impact weapon) and I'm fortunate enough to live in a state that has both legal concealed carry and a very victim friendly set of self defence laws.

In short....stop and think before you act.

"Trench Raider"

From what I can make of your post, seeing as a gun barrel to the throat (at least to me) seems to encompass a situation where "a reasonable person would fear imminent death or serious injury", you would've just turned his head into a canoe - instead of pushing him away in an attempt to avoid bodily harm.

How would blowing the kid away be more justifiable than shoving him away?

[raehl]

He's not justified by any "self-defense" excuse.

Self-defense requires that you avoid a hostile situation. Since he's escalating the situation, he's got no defense. The other guy could just as easily argue that he put his barrel in his neck because he felt threatened by the guy approaching him.

- Chris

[shartley]

Originally posted by raehl
He's not justified by any "self-defense" excuse.

Self-defense requires that you avoid a hostile situation. Since he's escalating the situation, he's got no defense. The other guy could just as easily argue that he put his barrel in his neck because he felt threatened by the guy approaching him.

- Chris
I have tried to explain that several times. But folks will not understand until they are put in jail for something they claim was self defense, but actually was not. And I don’t say this to be mean, but as the truth.

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
side note: Sam: stop being so logical. I've always wanted to disagree with you just one time. We always seem to have the same opinion on just about everything. Stop it.:)
Sorry. ;)

Originally posted by AngelBoy
Glad you werent trying to bash him and all, but Im not sure what that last line is if its not a sarcastic bashing phrase for you to get the last word in.

People screw up, move on.
Are you telling me that you can’t differentiate between a slight ribbing and a “bashing”? When you play paintball and someone shoots you once, do you run off the field and claim you were overshot? ;) How about if someone slaps you on the back? Do you call the police and claim someone beat you up?

People really need to keep things in perspective and not assign more “injury” or “intent” than there actually was. Not agreeing with someone or even being a little sarcastic does not mean someone is “bashing” someone. And ;) denotes a joke. No wonder some folks can’t seem to understand what was so wrong about the actions talked about in this thread when they can’t seem to even understand simple online conversations. And what is even more distressing is that folks are acting like disagreements in TEXT are more important (as in a bad thing) than physical altercations in REAL LIFE.

Originally posted by Shift
Dude, you should probably read the posts i wrote earlier, and just calm down. Put things in perspective a little man.

God bless America
Although not directed at me, I feel the need to comment on this too. No one here seems to NOT be calm. LOL Having disagreements and standing by your opinions don’t necessarily make someone upset. Seems to me that the ones condemning violent actions and escalations of situations into physical altercations ARE the calm ones… and those that think it is quite alright are the ones that need to calm down. ;)

God bless America… absolutely! And in America we have laws, and folks need to realize that. And if the law was brought into the picture, I think some folks would be surprised who would have actually been charged with assault and battery, and who would have only been kicked out of the park.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
ok I dont know you. And frankly, Im glad I dont know you because you sound like a prick. You sound like some stupid field owner that cares too much about your personal image. I will let YOU be the one that takes a shot to the throat someday. Were you the kid that got picked on in school? LOL Did the bigger kids beat you up and take your lunch money?
(again this was not posted to me) Field owners actually DO need to care about their image. But Chris is not a field owner. And Chris would not have been shot in the throat anyways… as has been said time and time again. By simply following the rules and using the field staff in a manner that they are intended to be used, the situation would have never escalated to the point where either party would feel the need to protect themselves using their paintball markers.

And bringing up “picked on in school” and “bigger kids beat you up and take your lunch money” is about the most ignorant thing I keep seeing pop up when someone refuses to advocate violence and bad behavior. Like “tough” people advocate violence and only “weak” people condemn it? Interesting concept.

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
All im saying is you seem to have hatred towards us "punks". Hey buddy guess what. If it wasnt for us "punks", this sport would be broke and not near as big as it is. Like it or not most paintball players are within the ages of 15 and 25. The numbers may even be lower than that. A big majority of them would have reacted the same way as me.
(again not posted to me) Age does not in itself make someone a punk. Punks come in all shapes and sizes, as well as ages. As for where the “sport” would be if it wasn’t for the 15-25 age bracket… that can be argued either way…. and is actually total irrelevant in this conversation. Trying to excuse bad behavior because those who do it may buy paintball products is kind of silly. And if that is not what you are doing, then why even bring it up?

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
I have a challenge for you. Go to your local tournement. Stand on the side with a gun and play Mr. Referee. When you see someone that deserves to be out. Dont bother telling the ref. Just shoot them. Do that 10 times and come back and tell me how many of those "punks" cussed at you.
(again not posted to me)
I think we all agree that playing “Ref” with your marker is WRONG. LOL And I don’t think anyone is saying that cussing at someone is “bad”. But there is a HUGE difference between cussing at someone and then telling a Ref, and arguing and cursing to the point that you force things into a PHYSICAL altercation. It was all about you showing him how much tougher you were than he was. We all know that. And like I said, I am not even upset about that. Heck, I can even EXPECT that out of some people… but that does not mean we have to ACCEPT that behavior, or in any way make excuses for it. See? There is a difference.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
What im saying is. I reacted the way a lot of people my age in the sport would. I cussed a guy out then defended myself when a barrel was shoved in my neck. PERIOD
(again not posted to me)
Well….. according to your own posts, that is not JUST what happened… PERIOD. ;) You didn’t call him a name and then walk away. And as has been pointed out, you didn’t “defend” yourself from anything. You reacted to a situation that you caused to happen. I have seen this a lot as a Cop. Something starts out as a fairly small issue, but then one party forces it to a higher level. Then neither party wants to “lose face” and walk away. Then something serious happens. And guess what? Quite often the person who was wrong to begin with ends up the one NOT in trouble. Why? Because the other person forced the issue into levels that were not “justified” responses or reactions to the initial wrong doing.


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
So before you go calling me a punk. Go check some stats and see exactly how many of us "punks" fund your precious field or whatever the hell you work for.
(again not posted to me)
Well, I don’t think this matters. As I have stated, Punks come in all ages. And I would have to say that being a young person does not in itself make someone a punk. I will also say that if I owned a field, NO punks would help support it… no matter WHAT age. Why? Because they would not be welcome, and in fact they would be specifically told to not come back. This is not saying YOU are a punk, but is only dealing with the issue OF punks.

[cockermongol]

OK I'm gonna try something that may help everyone visualize what I see when I hear a paintball gun is being used as a weapon, so in every instance where it was used as a weapon, I will replace it with another weapon. I was going to use an actual gun for this example, but I don't want to flame up the whole "firearm" argument again.

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz:

In our next move, a bunker move, my buddy layed cover and I ran up the tape to bunker a couple kids. Successfully. It was a beautiful move and sealed the game for us. All of a sudden I got shot in the back. Im like WTF. I look behind me and it was one of the dead players. He said when I made the bunker move I frickin stepped out of bounds. So he decided to, instead of telling the ref, shoot me himself. Of course that made me mad and I automatically tore into him with some harsh words. We had words and I walked off the field and this guy actually stuck his gun barrel in my neck and said if you touch me ill shoot (wtf?) So I dropped my trusty, not gunna break, Retro mag on the ground and knocked the kid on his ***. He then proceeded to shoot me 6 or 7 times in the chest. My friend then lit him up not stopping for about 8-10 seconds. Ya all that happened in under a minute. By that time the refs got there and seperated us.

Story with replacements:

In our next move, a bunker move, my buddy layed cover and I ran up the tape to bunker a couple kids. Successfully. It was a beautiful move and sealed the game for us. All of a sudden I got shot in the back. Im like WTF. I look behind me and it was one of the dead players. He said when I made the bunker move I frickin stepped out of bounds. So he decided to, instead of telling the ref, shoot me himself. Of course that made me mad and I automatically tore into him with some harsh words. We had words and I walked off the field and this guy actually put a knife in my neck and said if you touch me ill slit your throat. So I dropped my trusty, not gunna break, Retro mag on the ground and knocked the kid on his ***. He then proceeded to stab me 6 or 7 times in the chest. My friend then stabbed him, not stopping for about 8-10 seconds. Ya all that happened in under a minute. By that time the refs got there and seperated us.

From THIS rendission of the story, who pulled the kinfe? Who was the first one to escalate it to force? Whatever wicked did before this part of the story is IRRELEVANT as it DID NOT include physical contact. I've seen people get in each other's faces before, but never seen someone pull a weapon on the other person. If this kid feared serious bodily harm from wicked (which as doubt, as it was already stated he was showboating for his girlfriend) then the last thing he should've done was introduce a weapon to the situation. Wicked's friend should be in jail right now. Read the second one and you'll know what I mean.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

And that situation still wouldn't have happened if he would have just not flipped out and started cursing at him. Still wrong.

[am68leb]

i would have to believe from the story, you were both in the wrong, but judging from your sig, i'm not inclined to believe in any way shape or form. sorry.

[shartley]

Replace anything you want with anything you want and have fun… but it does not matter. What matters is what DID happen.

And honestly, if a knife was pulled and pulled because the person thought they needed it to protect themselves, guess what? It can be justified legally as self defense no matter if the other person pulled a weapon or not. You see, the threat of physical harm if perceived to be real, is all it takes in many situations for a person to be justified in producing a weapon FIRST. Heck, you can even SHOOT someone with a REAL firearm and call it self defense (and be found as such) without that other person even showing a weapon.

So, those that think that any actions before a weapon was pulled are irrelevant… wrong. Sorry, so very wrong. They are VERY relevant.

[cockermongol]

Did wicked SAY he threatened him? I never heard anything of the sort. When I read that story I see a kid who wants to look good in front of his girlfriend by acting manly and tough and putting his paintball gun in wicked's throat. If I were wicked i would've beat the crap outta him, and then pressed charges.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cockermongol
Did wicked SAY he threatened him? I never heard anything of the sort. When I read that story I see a kid who wants to look good in front of his girlfriend by acting manly and tough and putting his paintball gun in wicked's throat. If I were wicked i would've beat the crap outta him, and then pressed charges.
I read it and clearly saw a different story…. My question is… why would someone say “If you touch me, I will shoot you.” if such a threat was not made or felt by the individual. You see, some of us were not born yesterday….. and some of us have dealt with similar situations more than once, as Police Officers. And actually, nowhere in all the times here in this thread where it was posted that some threat was made, has he ONCE stepped up and said he did not make any physical threats against the kid. Nor has he stepped up and said he didn’t even use body language and invading personal space to threaten the kid.

You see… while you want to argue “what ifs” and “I never heard him say”…. Some of us have real world experience and common sense. Please don’t tell me that you think he did nothing but call the kid a few names with a raised voice. LOL I know you can’t be that blind or inexperienced. Or I hope not….

Not to mention that you CAN NOT beat the crap out of someone and THEN press charges. Chances are if you beat them that bad, YOU would be in jail for assault. But what do I know, right? I never arrested anyone for going over the force needed to resolve an issue… right? You are clearly talking about things you know nothing about. And if you continue to think the way you do, you may very well end up in some serious legal problems.

I do however, think you will get older and realize the way the real world works… which is not how High School games do.

[FatMan]

Guys, why are you arguing about shades of grey? Shartley is right about this (geez, that's weird! :confused: ). From a legal perspective, it wouldn't matter who pulled what first, or who struck who first, once you get into an altercation and both sides are contributing, you're in it and you're responsible for your actions. Anything else is just making excuses for losing control, and really it's better to just own up to it. As I said earlier in this thread, its not unusual, many of you are younger, and have been raised in an environment where people who use violence to solve problems are held up as heros. But one thing paintball should teach you, is you don't want to be involved in REAL violence.

I'm not sure where Wicked is from, Shartley is from NH. But in SC, you get in the wrong guy's face, he might not pull a knife, he might pull a gun. And you don't have to be a bad-*** to use one of those. Skinny little wimpy guys can blow you away just as easily as anyone else. So think about all the paint you've taken on the field ... would you really want to get messed up with that?

But hey, there ARE times when you have to be prepared to hold your ground, to fight for something. And when that time comes, you have to be ready to do it - and you have to be ready to take the consequences. Was that jerk who tagged Wicked in the back worth the trouble? I don't think so. For a moment there Wicked had the higher ground. But as soon as he opened his mouth, and stormed over there and pushed and shoved, he was no better than the other guy. No worse, to be sure - at least he STARTED out with right on his side. But he didn't end up that way.

Personally, I'd have laughed at the guy. I might have even shook his hand and told him I didn't know I was out, and complement his creative reffing. If the ref's didn't deal with him, I'd have made a point to return the favor - in a friendly way, I mean its all in fun, just a nudge to say "hey you're out."

Why is that so hard? Why do you all want to focus on yelling and hitting as the best way to deal with it?

FatMan

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by shartley

My question is… why would someone say “If you touch me, I will shoot you.” if such a threat was not made or felt by the individual.

He was showing off in front of his girlfriend. That kid wasn't afraid of physical harm, he clearly just wanted wicked to shut the F up. He pulled a weapon not in desparation, but in an attempt to show that he's the bigger man - the bully... and when wicked shoved the barrel away FROM HIS THROAT he was responding in a way that allowed him to escape physical harm. THEN the guy SHOOTS HIM ANYWAYS. While what his friend did was a bit overkill, it stopped the situation.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cockermongol

He was showing off in front of his girlfriend. That kid wasn't afraid of physical harm, he clearly just wanted wicked to shut the F up. He pulled a weapon not in desparation, but in an attempt to show that he's the bigger man - the bully... and when wicked shoved the barrel away FROM HIS THROAT he was responding in a way that allowed him to escape physical harm. THEN the guy SHOOTS HIM ANYWAYS. While what his friend did was a bit overkill, it stopped the situation.
Were you there? Seems to me that nowhere in the telling of what happened was what YOU just posted said or even insinuated. However, what I drew from the situation was pretty plausible. Yours? Not likely… well, maybe to a point, but I would not bet on it.

Why? Because if all he wanted was for Wicked to shut up, he would have SAID so, not say that if Wicked touched him he would shoot him. If you are only out to make someone shut up, you SAY IT. LOL You however usually say not to touch you if you think someone WILL touch you.

Heck, I have wanted my kids to be quiet many times, and never have I said that I would do something to them if they touched me to get them to be quiet. How stupid is that? ;)

Your arguments are not making any sense. I would let it go…. LOL

[Shift]

Damn good points about the weapons, and the actuall confrontation. People are allowed to yell at each other as much as they want. Physical conflict did not occour until a WEAPON was used to threaten wicks physical well being.(although it could be argued that it occoured when he first fired the shot at the dudes back in the first place).

In a court of law, Wick would win twice.

You guys are nonsensical. I think i just made up a word.


my name is chris

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by shartley

And actually, nowhere in all the times here in this thread where it was posted that some threat was made, has he ONCE stepped up and said he did not make any physical threats against the kid. Nor has he stepped up and said he didn’t even use body language and invading personal space to threaten the kid.


ladies and gentlemen, exibit A...


Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz

...So then I was pissed and in all the arguing, im sure I was cussing a lot and im sure I was yelling. But at no time did I threaten to hit him or anything like that. But ya I called him about every name that came to mind...


;)

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by FatMan

I'm not sure where Wicked is from, Shartley is from NH. But in SC, you get in the wrong guy's face, he might not pull a knife, he might pull a gun. And you don't have to be a bad-*** to use one of those. Skinny little wimpy guys can blow you away just as easily as anyone else. So think about all the paint you've taken on the field ... would you really want to get messed up with that?

Ya I live in California. People around here have guns and nonsense like that as well. Ill be honest sometimes when Im out I have a gun in my truck. Lots of people I know carry guns for protection. I can see where your comming from exactly though. I could piss off the wrong guy. I was on a paintball field though. I dont know too many guys who paintball strapped.

I would consider myself pretty street smart because I know when to keep my mouth shut and not to challenge the wrong group of people. I probably do get in more fights than an average 17 year old but I know where to draw the line.

You have to understand though. I didnt get in his face looking to fight. I didnt even get in his face looking for a shoving match. I was just venting the frustration I had. HE was the one who stood up and brought the situation to the next level.

[robertjuric]

I want to get bashed to ;)

If that were me, Id prob do the same thing. Not b/c I am a violent person, but if somebody shot me in the back who was already out, that would have made me mad, but then he threatens me? Thats about all I could I take. You cant go around just taking stuff from everyone. I know it may be immature, but thats the way teenagers work. I couldnt control my anger that good, but if I was older, as most of the people on these boards are, for one, I dont think the kid would have threatened an adult, and 2 I would hopefully be more mature by then.
Or I might would have waited till the parking lot or something, but either way, he woulda gotten his.

[Benfica4ever]

Good job dude, i would have probably done the same thing, he was just pissed u shoot his ***:D

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
ladies and gentlemen, exibit A...

;)
Okay, very good... you didn't actually say you would touch him... but that does not mean you didn't posture. Again, if you can tell me a valid reason why someone would say "If you touch me, I will shoot you." other than the person thinking you WOULD touch them, I will think differently.

And so far, no valid or logical reason has been posted. It just does not make sense.. it would be totally out of place. Heck he might as well have said “Blue cows give purple milk.”, and it would have been as much out of place as him telling you not to touch him.

Again, you kids are just spinning it and spinning it hoping to turn straw into gold. If you really think you did the right thing, fine. But know that if the police were called, you would now have a criminal record. Quite possibly everyone involved. But again, what do I know…. ;)

[bornl33t]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
ya well a couple weekends ago i was playing some rec ball at one of my local fields. the story goes like this...

It was the game right before lunch. We were playing on a field made up of a lot of buildings to represrent a town. Me and my buddy were making a hard push up the left tape and basically tearing up anything in our way. We were playing well and destroying that side. The game was getting down to the end and the guys we had shot out were standing off the field next to us watching, and walking up the side of the field as we moved. This is common for dead players to do and the refs allow it as long as they dont talk.

In our next move, a bunker move, my buddy layed cover and I ran up the tape to bunker a couple kids. Successfully. It was a beautiful move and sealed the game for us. All of a sudden I got shot in the back. Im like WTF. I look behind me and it was one of the dead players. He said when I made the bunker move I frickin stepped out of bounds. So he decided to, instead of telling the ref, shoot me himself. Of course that made me mad and I automatically tore into him with some harsh words. We had words and I walked off the field and this guy actually stuck his gun barrel in my neck and said if you touch me ill shoot (wtf?) So I dropped my trusty, not gunna break, Retro mag on the ground and knocked the kid on his ***. He then proceeded to shoot me 6 or 7 times in the chest. My friend then lit him up not stopping for about 8-10 seconds. Ya all that happened in under a minute. By that time the refs got there and seperated us.

So even though this kid started all that, I got sent home for the day with him. Not that I care I usually leave after lunch anyway but its just the princable of it.

O ya and then he had the nerve to flip me off while driving out of the lot.

so in conclusion they need to make a new rule. Dead guys dont talk, OR SHOOT.

well, looks like he started it, then raised the bar when he shouldn't have. You were right. Nothing wrong with a little raised temper after that crap. Refs weren't doing their job either.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
Ya I live in California. People around here have guns and nonsense like that as well. Ill be honest sometimes when Im out I have a gun in my truck. Lots of people I know carry guns for protection. I can see where your comming from exactly though. I could piss off the wrong guy. I was on a paintball field though. I dont know too many guys who paintball strapped.
Oh my…. I would suggest a serious change in lifestyle.

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
I would consider myself pretty street smart because I know when to keep my mouth shut and not to challenge the wrong group of people. I probably do get in more fights than an average 17 year old but I know where to draw the line.
I would say that you don’t know where to draw the line at all. People should only fight to protect themselves. And if you find yourself in situations that you have to protect yourself THAT often….. read my first comment.

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
You have to understand though. I didnt get in his face looking to fight. I didnt even get in his face looking for a shoving match. I was just venting the frustration I had. HE was the one who stood up and brought the situation to the next level.
But you DID get in his face. And that is a violation of his personal space. Of course he got up. You went over to him in an angry manner spouting stuff at him. Did you honestly expect him to just SIT there while someone came up to him in an aggressive manner? Oh, he was suppose to just sit back and see if you were going to hit him, right?

For someone who is claiming to be so street smart, you sure turn it on and off at will. ;) I think the average person would consider your actions a threat and a sign of violence. And the average person would have stood up as well. Did you tell him you were not looking for a fight?

This is all getting pretty silly…… and as such, I will leave this thread alone. ;)

I will just say that I am glad you are okay. I hope you learned some lesson from it. And I hope you change your ways in life.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by deathstalker
You're right: it's the principle of the matter. What you did was illegal; it's considered battery, possibly assault, and in no way can you explain what you did as being mature, correct, or justified. No matter what the other person did, you still committed a crime. Yes, a crime.


An unconvictable crime, since at the time the time the "victim" had a (depending on what state you're in) firearm to the "assailant's" throat. He clearly thought he was going to get shot in the throat at point blank range, which is very dangereous, and as such took corrective measures to make sure he wasn't shot in the throat.

As to the immaturity of pushing someone threatening to give you a tennis ball sized bruise in your throat, he's lucky he didn't do it to me. My trusty tape cutting knife and him would have had words, and it would have sounded a lot like "gurgle gurgle, THUMP"

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by rpm07
You handeled all wrong. You should have been very nice about it and smacked him upside the head with a Boomstick

Boomsticks cost money, throw him a headbutt

[Albinonewt]

Years ago my friend and i were playing at a field in a nice capture the flag wodded game. At the time i was using my tippman pro-am and my buddy had a pro-light. Anyways, we got stuck with flag detail and my buddy burried himself in the rear of the flag area with a good field of fire (and basically invisible) and i hid behing some fallen trees with a good line to the front. We had the angles covered as best we could with two people, and not knowing the field shape we though we were basically ok. We were wrong, this pack of 5 guys managed to get behind my buddy and over to me. They shot me in the back, completely unaware, for literally 10 seconds. All the while I was screaming from the fetal posistion that i was out and hit. They just kept firing and firing at me until their hoppers were empty. Once they were dry my buddy went to jump up and started yelling surrender. They were only standing a few feet from my friend so when he started moving one of them went over to him and held him down with his foot, pulle dout his sidearm, and shot him in the back of the head until it was empty. At this point I could take it any more, I couldn't believe how dirt this guys were. Anyone that remembers the Pro-Am knows it is quite the durable metal gun, and although not great as a marker, it is a big heavy stick. I knocked this guy off my buddy by clubbing him in the head with the Pro-Am. He fell, my buddy got up, and we squared off with these guys. They took a hint and picked up their buddy and walked away. The Refs gave us some stares in the dead zone since i had more then 100 broken balls on me, my buddy had 10 rounds in the bakc of his neck, and this other guys had a swollen jaw and teeth in his hand.

Sometimes it crazy stuff just happens and you need to swing the big stick to end it.

[Recon by Fire]

Most of you are really missing the point in trying to justify your actions and manhood. You like paintball, right? There are tons of people who don't and would love to see the game banned forever from existance. Despite whatever actions would be acceptable elsewhere, they are not acceptable at a paintball field. If someone is out of line at the field, let the staff handle it, that is their job! Being on the street and at the paintball field are two completely different things.

[branman444]

WicKeD_WaYz.... You the man!!!
I live in Oklahoma I have a concealed carrie lic. I would have been fully backed BY LAW to break out my 9 and cap his ****. Forget about the law as soon as the dude placed that barrel to his neck it was over. That was all self defense. I think he did good its about time some people have the balls to stand up and defend themselves. Also that wouldnt have went anywhere in court 1. he is a juvy and 2. if the feild owner had pressed charges the Dist. att. would have looked at that and said "he should have got his but kicked". At least that is what mine said.
WicKeD_WaYz.... You the man!!!

[raehl]

Die thread, die!

- Chris

[shartley]

Originally posted by branman444
WicKeD_WaYz.... You the man!!!
I live in Oklahoma I have a concealed carrie lic. I would have been fully backed BY LAW to break out my 9 and cap his ****. Forget about the law as soon as the dude placed that barrel to his neck it was over. That was all self defense. I think he did good its about time some people have the balls to stand up and defend themselves. Also that wouldnt have went anywhere in court 1. he is a juvy and 2. if the feild owner had pressed charges the Dist. att. would have looked at that and said "he should have got his but kicked". At least that is what mine said.
WicKeD_WaYz.... You the man!!!
You may want to contact a lawyer on that. If you think you would have been justified in ANY state to shoot someone with a 9MM because they pointed a PAINTBALL MARKER at you, you had better not ever pull out your 9mm…. chances are you will end up in prison for the rest of your life.

And it takes NO balls to talk trash to someone and force them into causing a situation that you feel the need to “defend” yourself from.

Again…. I think your “whoever you talked to” does not fully understand what happened. And being a former Law Enforcement Officer I know fill well that situations dictate the level of force needed for LEGAL self defense, not just a single action. To shoot someone with a 9mm you had better be prepared to PROVE that you thought your LIFE was in danger… and sorry, I think this case would fall FAR from that.

Some of you have some strange ideas of what self defense is and what levels are appropriate for what situations. Good luck in court if you ever do more than talk online about what you “would do”. And send me your address in whichever “State’s Finest Resort” they send you too so I can send you a Christmas card each year. ;) But you will be a “big man” or “the man” or whatever…. most likely while some other “big man” or “the man” calls you sweetheart. :D

As Chris said…. Die thread die! ;)

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by shartley
To shoot someone with a 9mm you had better be prepared to PROVE that you thought your LIFE was in danger… and sorry, I think this case would fall FAR from that.


To be fair Shart, I feel pretty confident that I could prove I thought my life was in jeopardy if someone had a .68 caliber weapon firing at 280 FPS (which is by the way, a little under half the speed of a .45 pistol) to my troat. As has been mentioned, that can (under all the wrong circumstances) be lethal, especially if the person were to fire more then once (or had an automatic).

Now, that being said, I can't imagine anyone actually bringing a firearm onto a paintball field. As this, and some other stories on this thread, prove, emotions run too hot on a paintball field to safely have a real firearm there. I know I keep guns with me nearly everywhere I go, but when I play paintball they stay in the car.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


To be fair Shart, I feel pretty confident that I could prove I thought my life was in jeopardy if someone had a .68 caliber weapon firing at 280 FPS (which is by the way, a little under half the speed of a .45 pistol) to my troat. As has been mentioned, that can (under all the wrong circumstances) be lethal, especially if the person were to fire more then once (or had an automatic).

Now, that being said, I can't imagine anyone actually bringing a firearm onto a paintball field. As this, and some other stories on this thread, prove, emotions run too hot on a paintball field to safely have a real firearm there. I know I keep guns with me nearly everywhere I go, but when I play paintball they stay in the car.
Well, I am glad you feel so confident. Of course then the other lawyer would point out that the projectile is made of gelatin designed to burst apart upon impact, unlike a BB, pellet, or standard firearm ammunition. Not to mention when the other lawyer points out that little cloth bags are used at the end of paintball markers to prevent the balls from being fired out the end of the marker and hitting people….. thus showing that this projectile does not take a whole lot to stop in all actuality.

Can it be dangerous? Heck yes! But how many of us have taken direct hits to the neck? And did any of us die? Interesting question.

I think you would have a much harder time convincing a jury that you thought your LIFE was in danger by a Paintball Marker being pointed at your neck….. when they know all the facts… which they WOULD be given if you were on trial for shooting someone with a 9mm handgun because a paintball marker was pointed at ANY part of your body.

But again, I am glad you feel so confident… just please don’t try it out. ;)

Your comments about keeping firearms away from paintball fields is dead on though (no pun intended ;) ).

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
I feel pretty confident that I could prove I thought my life was in jeopardy if someone had a .68 caliber weapon firing at 280 FPS (which is by the way, a little under half the speed of a .45 pistol) to my troat.

I should let this die, but I'm no good at ignoring things.

Lets see, I assumed you signed a waiver that stated people would be firing paintballs at you. In the normal course of play someone could have a paintball gun (not .68 caliber weapon) to your throat and fire, as a normal part of the game. Shoot someone with a firearm because they threatened you with a paintball gun on a paintball field during a game (regardless of whether you were out or not) and you will find yourself in jail. PERIOD. The caliber and speed of the paintball will be irrelevant.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by shartley

Oh my…. I would suggest a serious change in lifestyle.

I would say that you don’t know where to draw the line at all. People should only fight to protect themselves. And if you find yourself in situations that you have to protect yourself THAT often….. read my first comment.

But you DID get in his face. And that is a violation of his personal space. Of course he got up. You went over to him in an angry manner spouting stuff at him. Did you honestly expect him to just SIT there while someone came up to him in an aggressive manner? Oh, he was suppose to just sit back and see if you were going to hit him, right?

For someone who is claiming to be so street smart, you sure turn it on and off at will. ;) I think the average person would consider your actions a threat and a sign of violence. And the average person would have stood up as well. Did you tell him you were not looking for a fight?

This is all getting pretty silly…… and as such, I will leave this thread alone. ;)

I will just say that I am glad you are okay. I hope you learned some lesson from it. And I hope you change your ways in life.

Maybe I do need a new lifestyle. The fighting thing just seems to happen a lot where I live, with my friends, in my neighborhood, etc. And I ALWAYS manage to get involved :rolleyes: I dont even KNOW how I get myself into some of that **** but it happens. Maybe I need to move cities and get get new friends. :(

O well. About the turn my street smarts off and on thing. Paintball for me is a whole different place. Like ive said before its not like walking through a park after dark or on the wrong side of town. I dont have to be on my gaurd all the time. Its a place where I feel totally safe and to be honest I have never once thought about fighting anywhere related to paintball. It was just a reaction to knock that guy down when he put his barrel in my neck.

"Did you tell him you were not looking for a fight?"

No I didnt tell him I wasnt looking to fight. How was I to know the psycho was thinking about fighting? Like I have stated before. The word "fight" never even entered my head as I was yelling at him. I have yelled at people before while paintballing. Im sure we all have. Like if you see someone wipe, etc. I have yelled at people and they have said words back to me and we both get over it and go on with our day. Its kind of part of the sport. Sometimes paintball it VERY verbal whether its recball or tournies. My point is there have been confrontations before on a field. They happen between people EVERY time I play. Never once has one side of the party stuck a gun barrel to someones throat.

Im going to have to disagree with you Sam in saying I did something to advocate this. I didnt come close to the guy. I didnt threaten the guy.

My words prolly went sumthing like this...

"what the *bleep*? why the *bleep* would you shoot me? You could have *bleeping* told me i stepped out. bleep you.

ya i know myself and thats probably something close to what I said.

So once again I will still stand my ground when I say I did NOT get the guy to point his marker at me.

So you are telling me that it is justified for him to stick his barrel in my throat if im yelling at him?

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by shartley

Can it be dangerous? Heck yes! But how many of us have taken direct hits to the neck? And did any of us die? Interesting question.



Ive been shot in the throat.

Did I die?

No

Could I breathe?

No

But I can say I have never seen someone shot in the adams apple from point blank. the key words there are point blank.

[hitech]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
But I can say I have never seen someone shot in the adams apple from point blank. The key words there are point blank.

I do know someone who has. The barrel was touching his neck when the marker was fired. It was during the normal course of a game. He was fine, after an hour or so.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
Ive been shot in the throat.

Did I die?

No

Could I breathe?

No

But I can say I have never seen someone shot in the adams apple from point blank. the key words there are point blank.
I don’t want to misunderstand you….

You are saying that you think a paintball leaving a barrel at 280FPS and hitting you in the neck from point blank range is different than a paintball leaving the barrel at 280FPS and hitting you at 5 or 10 feet (common for bunkering moves). Interesting………. ;)

[FatMan]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz


I would consider myself pretty street smart because I know when to keep my mouth shut and not to challenge the wrong group of people. I probably do get in more fights than an average 17 year old but I know where to draw the line.

You have to understand though. I didnt get in his face looking to fight. I didnt even get in his face looking for a shoving match. I was just venting the frustration I had. HE was the one who stood up and brought the situation to the next level.

Wicked, I think we understood each other a few days ago. I should have made clear that at this point I'm writing more to the bone-heads who are posting here and think being a tough-nuts is so cool. I still think you should have let it go, but there is no point in arguing it.

What IS an issue is the numb-nuts here who think they know what they are talking about WRT the law. Some of you guys are train wrecks waiting to happen!

branman444, you obviously don't know what you're talking about. A carry permit means nothing in a situation like that, and IF you could get yourself off at all, you'd be looking to spend $20K or more on a successful defense - and it is not likely to be successful. The term isn't "self defense" it is "aggrivated." So you might go down on man slaughter rather than murder.

Albinonewt, you are just about as out there. If that story you told is true, then knocking the guy off your friend is one thing, the knife to the throat is jail time dude. If you think you could get out of it I hope you have the big bucks!

The lot of you need to grow up. Wicked came here and put his story up, and it was a great opportunity for everyone to learn.

I'm not sure there is much for you guys though!

Sheesh!

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by shartley:

You may want to contact a lawyer on that. If you think you would have been justified in ANY state to shoot someone with a 9MM because they pointed a PAINTBALL MARKER at you, you had better not ever pull out your 9mm…. chances are you will end up in prison for the rest of your life.

A paintball marker, as has been stated, CAN be a deadly weapon.

With this information one can say:
Paintball Marker = Deadly Weapon

soo.....

You may want to contact a lawyer on that. If you think you would have been justified in ANY state to shoot someone with a 9MM because they pointed a DEADLY WEAPON at you (specifically, your throat where there are several primary arteries and your windpipe along with the attachment of the spinal cord to the brain - arguably the most sensitive part of the body), you had better not ever pull out your 9mm…. chances are you will end up in prison for the rest of your life.

Doesn't sound that way to me...

[shartley]

Originally posted by cockermongol
Originally posted by shartley:

You may want to contact a lawyer on that. If you think you would have been justified in ANY state to shoot someone with a 9MM because they pointed a PAINTBALL MARKER at you, you had better not ever pull out your 9mm…. chances are you will end up in prison for the rest of your life.

A paintball marker, as has been stated, CAN be a deadly weapon.

With this information one can say:
Paintball Marker = Deadly Weapon

soo.....

You may want to contact a lawyer on that. If you think you would have been justified in ANY state to shoot someone with a 9MM because they pointed a DEADLY WEAPON at you (specifically, your throat where there are several primary arteries and your windpipe along with the attachment of the spinal cord to the brain - arguably the most sensitive part of the body), you had better not ever pull out your 9mm…. chances are you will end up in prison for the rest of your life.

Doesn't sound that way to me...
You are how old? 16? And you have been involved with actual laws and law enforcement how long?

Now myself on the other hand, have children your age and older, and am a former Police Officer.

A spoon can be used to kill someone and as such can be called a “deadly weapon”. So can a piece of paper if you made enough cuts into someone and poured salt water over them all and they went into shock. A paper clip with a sharpened end (or even not) could be thrust into your neck ripping your main arteries and you could die…. Thus making a paperclip a “deadly weapon”. I could go on listing all the things that “could be” called “deadly weapons” if they were to be USED as such.

However, if you were to shoot anyone for holding any of the above listed “deadly weapons” to your neck, you would probably get the death penalty if it is available in your state (if you killed them... and serious jail time no matter what.).

You are now playing semantics that if tried in the REAL WORLD would find you in very serious trouble. Paintball Parks would not be allowed to open if paintball markers were classified as Deadly Weapons. Heck, neither would ball parks, put put courses, and a million other things that use equipment that COULD be used to kill someone with…. since almost anything in the right (or wrong) hands can be used as a deadly weapon.

I would advise knowing what you are talking about before trying to argue with someone who DOES know what he is talking about. You are now just getting purely ignorant.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by hitech


I should let this die, but I'm no good at ignoring things.

Lets see, I assumed you signed a waiver that stated people would be firing paintballs at you. In the normal course of play someone could have a paintball gun (not .68 caliber weapon) to your throat and fire, as a normal part of the game. Shoot someone with a firearm because they threatened you with a paintball gun on a paintball field during a game (regardless of whether you were out or not) and you will find yourself in jail. PERIOD. The caliber and speed of the paintball will be irrelevant.

I completely disagree with you. Here's an example.

You and I belong to a gymnastics class. We both sign a waiver conceding that we know we could get hurt there, with the fact that it's a physical activity and that there is equipment that could hurt us. While in class, you decide to choke me with a jump rope, just wrap it around my neck and tug. I get scared, and decide to use force to get you off me. I respond with enough force to injure you pretty severly (not throw you and then kick or anything, maybe a headbut to the nose or something). Was I justified? I think most people will agree I was. Did I sign a waiver saying I knew I could get hurt and then ignore it? Not really.

In the case of the guy with the paintball gun to anohter person's neck at point blank range threatening a guy with it, that is far and above what is considered normal play, and i think at that point force is justifiable. I personally would not start shooting a guy, but I would certain take corrective measures. And anybody that tried to nail me with the waiver would get an earful. I would simply state that I didn't understand, when signing that waiver, that the field thought I was telling them it was ok for people to TRY to harm me.

I wouldn't pull a gun in that situation, but I'm pertty sure you could get away with it. Especially if the guy was being threatening.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
In the case of the guy with the paintball gun to another person's neck at point blank range threatening a guy with it, that is far and above what is considered normal play

That is where we disagree. It easily could happen in normal play. I have seen it happen before. And remember, you are going to have to prove that you feared for your life if you use deadly force. Since I can produce huge amounts of evidence that it could happen as a normal part of the game that you agreed to play it's going to be very, very hard to convince anyone that you feared for your life. People get convicted with better "excuses" all the time. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


I completely disagree with you. Here's an example.

You and I belong to a gymnastics class. We both sign a waiver conceding that we know we could get hurt there, with the fact that it's a physical activity and that there is equipment that could hurt us. While in class, you decide to choke me with a jump rope, just wrap it around my neck and tug. I get scared, and decide to use force to get you off me. I respond with enough force to injure you pretty severly (not throw you and then kick or anything, maybe a headbut to the nose or something). Was I justified? I think most people will agree I was. Did I sign a waiver saying I knew I could get hurt and then ignore it? Not really.

In the case of the guy with the paintball gun to anohter person's neck at point blank range threatening a guy with it, that is far and above what is considered normal play, and i think at that point force is justifiable. I personally would not start shooting a guy, but I would certain take corrective measures. And anybody that tried to nail me with the waiver would get an earful. I would simply state that I didn't understand, when signing that waiver, that the field thought I was telling them it was ok for people to TRY to harm me.

I wouldn't pull a gun in that situation, but I'm pertty sure you could get away with it. Especially if the guy was being threatening.
I disagree and here is why….

Your example of the rope is not a suitable comparison. The rope is not being used as it was intended to be used. However, a paintball marker IS to be used to shoot another person… from close ranges to far (relatively speaking). While someone can argue that a paintball being fired at you at point blank range is dangerous, it is far from being considered “deadly” or out of the actual uses for the equipment.

Everyone on the paintball field is trying to SHOOT everyone on the opposing team (and if you have a bunch of newbs, maybe even their own team ;)). The equipment was specifically designed to shoot people.

Also the rope in your example was being wrapped around your throat and tugged on. It is already being used AS the weapon. Your actions are then justified since you are actually in the process of being “battered” (the consummation stage of assault, which by legal definition does not have to even have physical contact). While a paintball marker, or even a rope, just placed to your neck but not being used AS a weapon in the consummation of battery can not justify any force over what is needed to remove that object from your neck.

Anything over that can easily be shown to be excessive and you be charged accordingly.

You can’t on one hand sign a waiver and engage in an activity that during normal play causes people to SHOOT at you, even at very close range, and then claim self defense when a similar action is threatened to you with the same equipment and use excessive force to “protect yourself”. That just makes no legal sense.

Let us take Ice Hockey for a minute…. Do you remember the player that had assault charges filed on him for using his stick in a manner that was not part of the game? Now, I don’t think anyone would argue that a hockey stick can kill someone. But if that same person had put the stick up to another player’s neck during a break and threatened him, and the other player SHOT him for doing so… how can you even think of justifying that level of force? You simply can’t.

Anything over the initial removal of the “weapon” is unjustified. And even less so if that “weapon” was used because the person using is thought he was using it to protect HIMSELF from you. LOL

You people who think you know about things because you have a “permit” to carry a gun sure need to take some courses on the matter. Guess what? You can even be charged for SHOWING (brandishing) your gun if it is not justified. And I have found that MOST people don’t have the slightest clue what is legal and what is not….. watching LA Law, Hill Street Blues, and whatever other TV shows (and movies) is a bad way to learn the law. And it appears that this is where some of you Paintball Field Lawyers have gotten your information from.

Sorry…. what most of you think is legal is not the case.

[SP87]

every time i check my mail i see this again

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
watching LA Law, Hill Street Blues, and whatever other TV shows (and movies) is a bad way to learn the law.

What about Law and Order? I love that show! lol ;) Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[gam-e]

Originally posted by shartley

put put courses


oh i finally got something on you Mr.


i do believe its PUTT-PUTT.


geeze finally :D

Dion

[shartley]

Originally posted by gam-e



oh i finally got something on you Mr.


i do believe its PUTT-PUTT.


geeze finally :D

Dion
:)

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by hitech


That is where we disagree. It easily could happen in normal play. I have seen it happen before. And remember, you are going to have to prove that you feared for your life if you use deadly force. Since I can produce huge amounts of evidence that it could happen as a normal part of the game that you agreed to play it's going to be very, very hard to convince anyone that you feared for your life. People get convicted with better "excuses" all the time. ;)

In normal course of play a guy can physically touch his barrel to my throat and threaten me with it?

Where do you play?

Although it is certainly a point that a person can be shot, nearly anywhere on the body, at close ranges in paintball that is also certainly different then to threaten me with harm, by pressing the gun to my throat and then threatening to fire.

I will elaborate in a moment, with Shartley

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by shartley

I don’t want to misunderstand you….

You are saying that you think a paintball leaving a barrel at 280FPS and hitting you in the neck from point blank range is different than a paintball leaving the barrel at 280FPS and hitting you at 5 or 10 feet (common for bunkering moves). Interesting………. ;)

I think we could argue that a paintball is at its fastest point when it leaves the barrel and then slows down the farther it travels. Even if it only slows down 30 or 40 fps, thats a big difference.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
In normal course of play a guy can physically touch his barrel to my throat and threaten me with it?

I didn't say anything about threatening. I said that in the normal course of play you could have a marker pointed point blank at (even touching) your throat and fired. If you would truly fear for your life in that situation, why do you play?

And yes, I have seen someone shot in the throat with the barrel touching their throat. The "victim", a friend of mine, confirmed it was touching when fired.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shartley

I disagree and here is why….

Your example of the rope is not a suitable comparison. The rope is not being used as it was intended to be used. However, a paintball marker IS to be used to shoot another person… from close ranges to far (relatively speaking). While someone can argue that a paintball being fired at you at point blank range is dangerous, it is far from being considered “deadly” or out of the actual uses for the equipment.

While a paintball gun being randomly discharged toward me in normal course of play isn't considered deadly I would tend to believe that one leveled at me, by putting it to my throat, and accompanied by threats may constitute a threat to my life.

Everyone on the paintball field is trying to SHOOT everyone on the opposing team (and if you have a bunch of newbs, maybe even their own team ;)). The equipment was specifically designed to shoot people.

True, but then we get into the next element of the arguement. Designed to shoot people with what intent? The simple answer is the intent to get paint on the person so they stop playing. In this example, the standard intent has already been satisified, as the 2 people in question were both marked with paint and no longer playing. In this case the specific intent of the person with the paintball gun is to harm, and that's what sets this apart from normal play.

You can’t on one hand sign a waiver and engage in an activity that during normal play causes people to SHOOT at you, even at very close range, and then claim self defense when a similar action is threatened to you with the same equipment and use excessive force to “protect yourself”. That just makes no legal sense.

Sure it does, because in this instance I signed up to play paintball, and instead I'm getting a maniac threatening me with harm and gun. And he has physically threatened me by holding it to my throat.

Let us take Ice Hockey for a minute…. Do you remember the player that had assault charges filed on him for using his stick in a manner that was not part of the game? Now, I don’t think anyone would argue that a hockey stick can kill someone. But if that same person had put the stick up to another player’s neck during a break and threatened him, and the other player SHOT him for doing so… how can you even think of justifying that level of force? You simply can’t.

It's hardly impossible (although not entirely likely) to justify that. Suppose your person with the hockey stick was threatening him in a convincing manner and clearly brandishing the stick as a weapon. In that case it would be possible for the other person to be intimidated enough to clearly, and rightfully so, fear for his life. How many hits to an unprotected head by a determined assaulter with a hockey stick can you take? I can't take many.

Anything over the initial removal of the “weapon” is unjustified. And even less so if that “weapon” was used because the person using is thought he was using it to protect HIMSELF from you. LOL

Too murky, not touching that. On one hand, firing a single round is sufficient force to "remove" the threat. On the other hand, if witnesses are going to testify that i threatened him, then he threatened me, then i shot him because I felt threatened, I'm boned.

You people who think you know about things because you have a “permit” to carry a gun sure need to take some courses on the matter. Guess what? You can even be charged for SHOWING (brandishing) your gun if it is not justified. And I have found that MOST people don’t have the slightest clue what is legal and what is not….. watching LA Law, Hill Street Blues, and whatever other TV shows (and movies) is a bad way to learn the law. And it appears that this is where some of you Paintball Field Lawyers have gotten your information from.

I grew up with guns. I've been a licensed pistol and rifle instructor since I was 21 and 18. I have tought all kinds of different combat classes and about the legality of weapons. So, I most certainly have a sound basis for my viewpoint. Although that certainly doesn't mean I'm automatically right, it does mean that I'm not some crackpot that watches TV and then professes to know the law.

And on that note, it is especially because of my extensive exposure to firearms that I would take so seriously any mistreatement of paintball guns, from holding it to someone's throat to shooting at a person in anger. I woudn't do that with any real firearm and nor would I with any "fake" firearm, it isn't safe practice and it isn't what i teach in firearm safety. When I'm at the field and I see people point unplugged barrels at me with their hand on the grip I nearly have a heart attack. I can't tell you how many markers I've swatted out of people's hands and how many people I've restrained (not with hard core force, just grabbing their gun and pointing it down) for that nonsense. I take very seriously the handeling of all firearms.

That being said, I would never pull my own firearm on someone unless I had a sincere and honest belief that it was him or me, and at that point I'm putting two in his head. In the example with the marker to the throat, I would at the point have no problem pulling my knife on him (as stated way long ago) so that he is away I take my safety very seriously, and will not tolerate it being jeopardized by some kid that wants to act tough with a gun. I would not attack him, but I would make it very clear that if he pulls that trigger he's coming out of this in much worse shape then I am.

But as for the issue of shooting the guy using a paintball gun in a threatening way, i really think that given the right breaks in the case the person could get away with it, or at least get the charges or sentencing reduced. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really see a convinving argument there that has an ok chance of working. Lot's of things would have to be just right though, but I think it's possible.

But, I don't want to know who's right enough to shoot a kid at paintball, and unless you're willing to do it I suggest we chalk this up to a difference of opinion on a purely speculative manner.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by hitech


I didn't say anything about threatening. I said that in the normal course of play you could have a marker pointed point blank at (even touching) your throat and fired. If you would truly fear for your life in that situation, why do you play?

And yes, I have seen someone shot in the throat with the barrel touching their throat. The "victim", a friend of mine, confirmed it was touching when fired.

In the normal course of play a football player can have his leg snapped to the point that it would never work again. But it is very rare, and almost always the result of someone doing something wrong.

If someone walked up to your friend, touched the gun, and fired into his throat that guy did something wrong.

But don't sit here and tell me it's a normal and regular part of gameplay for people to touch their guns and delibertaly fire into someone's throat, because it isn't and you know it. Accident's happen, and sometimes people overshoot or don't allow surrender because they're a little too pumped with adrenaline, but they do not threaten with a paintball gun and hold the gun to the throat. A pointblank shot to the throat in gameplay is definitly inappropriate, and at most fields I play at would at the very least make the person sit for that.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
But don't sit here and tell me it's a normal and regular part of game play for people to touch their guns and deliberately fire into someone's throat, because it isn't and you know it.

Would you fear for your life if on the paintball field someone pointed paintball gun at your throat so close that it touched it? If yes, then why do you play as it can easily happen (blind bunker move). If no, then you would NOT be justified in the use of deadly force, period. The bottom line here is that I don't believe that you can justify the use of deadly force because someone threatened you with a paintball marker on a paintball field during game play. Do you honestly believe that you could justify the use of deadly force?

[shartley]

Albinonewt
While a paintball gun being randomly discharged toward me in normal course of play isn't considered deadly I would tend to believe that one leveled at me, by putting it to my throat, and accompanied by threats may constitute a threat to my life.

Sorry, but you are wrong. What you consider MAY be a threat to your life and what a court would are two different things. And if you can’t even convince average people on a paintball forum that it constitutes an actual threat to your LIFE, you surely should not think you can convince 12 random people it is. Well, no more than saying that a pitcher who purposely throws a fastball at a batter is trying to KILL him.

Albinonewt
True, but then we get into the next element of the arguement. Designed to shoot people with what intent? The simple answer is the intent to get paint on the person so they stop playing. In this example, the standard intent has already been satisified, as the 2 people in question were both marked with paint and no longer playing. In this case the specific intent of the person with the paintball gun is to harm, and that's what sets this apart from normal play.

Your “intent” argument does not hold up in this case. And I suggest you read up on intent and how it applies to the law. And I can list many times when in normal play the INTENT is to harm. Ever hear of overshooting? Ever hear of bonus balling? So you are saying that if the intent is to harm, you can defend yourself with deadly force? Not likely. The intent to harm is not justification for any level of defense over that needed to take care of the situation. And from what you keep saying, THAT level is much higher than any court would allow as “reasonable” force. Again, I can say this from actual experience.

Albinonewt
Sure it does, because in this instance I signed up to play paintball, and instead I'm getting a maniac threatening me with harm and gun. And he has physically threatened me by holding it to my throat.

Actually, every time you step in the field you know you will be shot. You know you will be facing players that may not stop shooting when they should. You know you are playing a game where to get “out” you are physically shot by a paintball….. yet you now want to act as if the paintball and marker know the difference between the reasons for being shot? You are letting your emotions overrule simple logic. Being hit by a paintball fired by your friend at 5 feet and being hit by someone wanting to actually hurt you is no different “physically”. Only your emotions make it worse. Only your emotions make you “think” it is more dangerous. Simply put, it isn’t.

No, you didn’t sign a waiver that said you agree to be threatened with harm by a paintball marker. But you also didn’t sign a waive that you will not be overshot or bonus balled either….. but for each of those situations you surely would not advocate deadly force would you? Again, you are not thinking logically, but emotionally… and the courts will not see such a distinction as you are trying to make.

Albinonewt
It's hardly impossible (although not entirely likely) to justify that. Suppose your person with the hockey stick was threatening him in a convincing manner and clearly brandishing the stick as a weapon. In that case it would be possible for the other person to be intimidated enough to clearly, and rightfully so, fear for his life. How many hits to an unprotected head by a determined assaulter with a hockey stick can you take? I can't take many.

Again, you are wrong. You clearly show that you don’t know that law. You are only playing games now. And games that would not hold up in any court of law.

Albinonewt
Too murky, not touching that. On one hand, firing a single round is sufficient force to "remove" the threat. On the other hand, if witnesses are going to testify that i threatened him, then he threatened me, then i shot him because I felt threatened, I'm boned.

You would have to prove that shooting was the level NEEDED, not that it was sufficient. And that is where many of your arguments fall flat.

Albinonewt
I grew up with guns. I've been a licensed pistol and rifle instructor since I was 21 and 18. I have tought all kinds of different combat classes and about the legality of weapons. So, I most certainly have a sound basis for my viewpoint. Although that certainly doesn't mean I'm automatically right, it does mean that I'm not some crackpot that watches TV and then professes to know the law.

Have you? So have I, as well as enforced the laws. And I can tell you that your perception of what the laws are are very far from reality. And if you teach others similar thought processes, I hope your students never have to USE their weapons… for they may end up in Jail… and no amount of “My instructor told me…” will help them.

Albinonewt
And on that note, it is especially because of my extensive exposure to firearms that I would take so seriously any mistreatement of paintball guns, from holding it to someone's throat to shooting at a person in anger. I woudn't do that with any real firearm and nor would I with any "fake" firearm, it isn't safe practice and it isn't what i teach in firearm safety. When I'm at the field and I see people point unplugged barrels at me with their hand on the grip I nearly have a heart attack. I can't tell you how many markers I've swatted out of people's hands and how many people I've restrained (not with hard core force, just grabbing their gun and pointing it down) for that nonsense. I take very seriously the handeling of all firearms.

I agree with you on this. That was never in debate. But your ideas of what is legal for self defense against a brandished paintball marker are wrong, and terribly so. If you shot someone (with a handgun) KNOWING that all they had was a paintball marker….. you are going to jail. Period.

Albinonewt
That being said, I would never pull my own firearm on someone unless I had a sincere and honest belief that it was him or me, and at that point I'm putting two in his head. In the example with the marker to the throat, I would at the point have no problem pulling my knife on him (as stated way long ago) so that he is away I take my safety very seriously, and will not tolerate it being jeopardized by some kid that wants to act tough with a gun. I would not attack him, but I would make it very clear that if he pulls that trigger he's coming out of this in much worse shape then I am.

And in pulling a knife you have increased the level to much higher than I believe a court would find necessary as well. You see, it takes less effort to simply push the barrel off your neck than it does to pull a knife and use it. And in fact, in the time it takes to do that, you could actually be shot. Try convincing a jury that you thought it was better defense to take the time to find and pull a knife over simply using your arm/hand to push the barrel away. Sorry, it would not hold water.

Albinonewt
But as for the issue of shooting the guy using a paintball gun in a threatening way, i really think that given the right breaks in the case the person could get away with it, or at least get the charges or sentencing reduced. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really see a convinving argument there that has an ok chance of working. Lot's of things would have to be just right though, but I think it's possible.

Again, I disagree. But I hope no one has to test it out.

Albinonewt
But, I don't want to know who's right enough to shoot a kid at paintball, and unless you're willing to do it I suggest we chalk this up to a difference of opinion on a purely speculative manner.

Yes, we can chalk it up to differences of opinion. But I would advise anyone reading this to take into account where the opinions are coming from and decide who they think may have a better idea of the realities of the situation. And then they should decide if it is worth testing out or not. ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
But don't sit here and tell me it's a normal and regular part of gameplay for people to touch their guns and delibertaly fire into someone's throat, because it isn't and you know it.

Actually, and somewhat of topic, something I did could have been interpreted that way. I asked a player to surrender while I had my marker pointed at his throat. He swung the barrel of his marker around and hit my raised left hand. I said, "don't make me shot you". He looked at the barrel and decided to surrender. I didn't intend to point it at his throat, and I didn’t intend to threaten him. However, it could have been interpreted that way by him. After that, I decided that asking people to surrender at that close range was a bad idea.

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by hitech

Would you fear for your life if on the paintball field someone pointed paintball gun at your throat so close that it touched it?


Yes.


Originally posted by hitech

If yes, then why do you play as it can easily happen (blind bunker move).


It can't easily happen. It would be one in a million. I guess it's a risk you take. People have died playing football, it doesn't stop me from playing. In this situation he was guaranteed a ball to the throat.


Originally posted by hitech

The bottom line here is that I don't believe that you can justify the use of deadly force because someone threatened you with a paintball marker on a paintball field during game play. Do you honestly believe that you could justify the use of deadly force?


ABSOLUTELY. He is threatening the use of deadly force, in this situation I would honestly fear for my life. If I was packing, I would use it. Bottom Line. If it would get that barrel out of my throat, then SO BE IT.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cockermongol
Yes...ABSOLUTELY. He is threatening the use of deadly force...

I don't believe you. If you were actually in that situation you would change your mind before killing someone because they threatened you with a paintball marker. Your really going to say to the arresting officer, but sir, he pointed a paintball gun at me! Those things can be dangerous!

However, if my some stretch of imagination you are telling the truth, I feel sorry for you. It's going to land you in jail. :(


Originally posted by cockermongol
It can't easily happen. It would be one in a million.

So, you're telling me that a blind bunker move is a one in a million event? Ever played in/watched a tournament?

[raehl]

One quick point:

Being in danger is generally *NOT* a sufficient justification for self-defense, especially self-defense homicide. Not only must you be in danger, but you must ALSO be unable to remove the danger through non-violent means, or non-lethal means.


If someone places a paintball barrel on your neck, and you take out your gun and shoot him, that's not self-defense, as you could have just as easily (perhaps even more easily/effectively), moved so teh barrel wasn't pointed at you, or failing that, forcefully removed the barrel from your neck.


- Chris

[Recon by Fire]

Originally posted by raehl
One quick point:

Being in danger is generally *NOT* a sufficient justification for self-defense, especially self-defense homicide. Not only must you be in danger, but you must ALSO be unable to remove the danger through non-violent means, or non-lethal means.



I hate to drag this argument on further, but the above is not necessarily true. Some states do not require "retreat" before the use of dealy force. This whole discussion of defense and such is highly subjective to state laws. There is no one answer to cover all locales.

Like I said before, fighting and paintball are not good bed fellows and should be kept seperate, no matter what!

[Gman63]

After following this thread for a few days I feel the need to chime in. First, both players were wrong. Second how did the player get close enough to place the barrel of his marker on Wicked's neck. If Wicked approached this other player while shouting obscenities, no court in the country would say he or anyone else in that situation was justified in killing someone. In fact if verbal shouting was all that was going on and you rapidly approached an individual, that individual would be considered in their right to possibly try and defend him or herself. Now not being there as an eyewitness to the incident I cannot pass judgement of right or wrong, from what I have gathered on this thread alot of wrong on alot of sides.
Wicked, a word of advice from someone who has participated in alot of sports at top amature and professional levels, next time it happens, smile at the person, tell them it was a nice shot, chid them with niceities and then wax his or her butt in every game you can the rest of the day. Also after everytime there eliminated, smile at them and give them a quick" You'll do better next time". Keep cool, and learn from all of your experiences.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

First let me state this.

Even though I know, and a lot of people else on this board know, getting shot in the throat at point blank CHANCES ARE would not kill a person. Therefore my life was not threatened necessarly.

quick side note: wierd stuff happens sometimes. I guess I COULD have died.


continuing on... A court of law could easily prove that a paintball gun, shot at that close of range, could kill someone. Why? Because Im assuming most lawyers, judges, jury members, etc. have not actually played. A lot of people look at our sport like we are playing some war game with realistic guns. Thats why it would not be beyond me to think that a court of law could prove a paintgun is a deadly weapon.

Think of it this way. If I walked down the street and stuck and marker to a guys throat and said give me your money. If he pulled out a gun and shot me in self defence, he could probably convince a jury that his life was threatened.

O ya and Sam. By saying that when I signed a waiver to play and therefore I have no reason to complain when someone sticks a gun to my throat, thats crazy. As soon as I walked into the deadzone I was no longer playing paintball. The marker then was used as a weapon. (lethal or non-lethal I will leave up to you guys)

[raehl]

He could convince a jury that *HE* reasonably believed his life was threatened.

You know better.

- Chris

[Shift]

Malicious intent was intended by the dude with the gun pointing at wicks neck. wick just wanted to yell and vent anger. If thats illegal, New York is going to jail.


i got shot in the back of my bald head from 10 feet away... it bleed a lot.... still brusied and scabbed... happened a week and 3 days ago... someone puts a gun to my neck from point blank, they will regret it... either that or ill end up getting my *** kicked


chris

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
First let me state this.

Even though I know, and a lot of people else on this board know, getting shot in the throat at point blank CHANCES ARE would not kill a person. Therefore my life was not threatened necessarly.

quick side note: wierd stuff happens sometimes. I guess I COULD have died.


continuing on... A court of law could easily prove that a paintball gun, shot at that close of range, could kill someone. Why? Because Im assuming most lawyers, judges, jury members, etc. have not actually played. A lot of people look at our sport like we are playing some war game with realistic guns. Thats why it would not be beyond me to think that a court of law could prove a paintgun is a deadly weapon.

Think of it this way. If I walked down the street and stuck and marker to a guys throat and said give me your money. If he pulled out a gun and shot me in self defence, he could probably convince a jury that his life was threatened.

O ya and Sam. By saying that when I signed a waiver to play and therefore I have no reason to complain when someone sticks a gun to my throat, thats crazy. As soon as I walked into the deadzone I was no longer playing paintball. The marker then was used as a weapon. (lethal or non-lethal I will leave up to you guys)
Sorry none of this is relevant. Spin any situation you like, that is fine. The only real issue is what DID happen, not what would happen on the street, or any of the other silly stuff folks keep trying to justify any actions for.

And no, that is not what I said (about the waiver), and you know it. You can spin your own stories and words, but please don’t spin mine. I was clear in what I said.

Good day. ;)

[sbpyro]

Wow,
I've been playing paintball for a while now and this post just amazes me.

I guess rec ball in cali is a little more competitive (sorta like their softball).

Not saying I would have reacted differently or the same with someone pointing a paintgun at my throat since I wasn't there and not my throat. (And have been shot in the throat from the distance of 2 to 3 ft it hurts)

I think this is just something all fields ( I understand they were understaff) should be aware of and strict rule placed on any physical contact should not be tolerated.

The fields I've played on we have a 10 ft surrender rule (within 10 ft offer it doesn't mean it will be taken) and this will often cause a debate of you couldn't have gotten close enough to surrender us in a bunker. I was in a situation 2 weeks ago where 3 guys in a bunker were being accused of blindfiring against my team. So I was out of air anyways decided to rush the bunker. I pointed over the bunker and yelled surrender (which they didn't have to take) but since their guns were in the netting they really shouldn't have much of a choice. They cover man pops out and nails me in the side of the ribs and stitched me a couple of times on the back from about 15 ft. So I'm out I turn and start walking out (with gun up and barrel plug in) and proceed to get lit up from behind.
Yes I was bs'd but I also realized I was in the line of fire so I walked to a point near the exit of the field an finished my arguement with the 3 in that area.

I find out later those 3 are notorious for wiping and apparently whining. But I don't think I ever felt that I was at any point in any danger no matter how heated our arguement was.

I'm old now so I can't use the I'm underaged excuse (also there is also the term tried as an adult). I do believe that each player is responsible for their actions, whether it be blindfire or empting a hopper into someone at point blank. It disgusts me that this incident got to the point of physical contact (gun to throat not the shoving/reaction). But I also think that trying to justify the reaction is wrong also (not as much but wrong is still wrong) because it happen and no matter what you can't take back the reaction it happened (ie if i shot some one saying I'm sorry or that he had a weapon won't make the fact that I shot him changed). I think that this post was a way for wicked to vent a frustration with an idiot on the field. But all the reply post about him being wrong is a frustration of other ppl with problems like this occuring at their fields.

My opinion on this issue is that ppl in our sport need to be more responsible with their actions on and especially off the field (ppl playing renegade in woods or worse shooting up the neighborhood). I believe that one of the things that we agree upon is that the ref's word is the law (doesn't mean I will always agree with it but save the whining for someone who cares) and that there should be a level of respect for all other players. And if the culprit is a newbie let the appropriate ppl handle it. If it is being ignored should you really be playing at that field (I don't believe that there is any fields that would allow the behavior of sticking a marker in someone's throat to be unpunished).

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shartley
Sorry, but you are wrong. What you consider MAY be a threat to your life and what a court would are two different things. And if you can’t even convince average people on a paintball forum that it constitutes an actual threat to your LIFE, you surely should not think you can convince 12 random people it is. Well, no more than saying that a pitcher who purposely throws a fastball at a batter is trying to KILL him.

I'll bet you anything I could get a medical expert to testify that one or more shots from a paintball gun, directly into the throat, from a close range could easily be sufficient blunt trauma to make breathing difficult if not impossible. And as I need to breathe to live, I consider that a threat to my life. As for the pitcher, if he is intentionally throwing at a person's head, it's possible. During a game I think it would be hard to prove, since he has a helment, but not impossible.

Your “intent” argument does not hold up in this case. And I suggest you read up on intent and how it applies to the law. And I can list many times when in normal play the INTENT is to harm. Ever hear of overshooting? Ever hear of bonus balling? So you are saying that if the intent is to harm, you can defend yourself with deadly force? Not likely. The intent to harm is not justification for any level of defense over that needed to take care of the situation. And from what you keep saying, THAT level is much higher than any court would allow as “reasonable” force. Again, I can say this from actual experience.

Wait a minute. Because overshooting happens I have to allow a person to shoot me in the throat, intentionall at close range? Does that mean that a woman can shoot a man trying to rape her with a knife because she can't shoot a man that slaps her butt? That's stupid dude, and you bloody well know it.

Actually, every time you step in the field you know you will be shot. You know you will be facing players that may not stop shooting when they should. You know you are playing a game where to get “out” you are physically shot by a paintball….. yet you now want to act as if the paintball and marker know the difference between the reasons for being shot? You are letting your emotions overrule simple logic. Being hit by a paintball fired by your friend at 5 feet and being hit by someone wanting to actually hurt you is no different “physically”. Only your emotions make it worse. Only your emotions make you “think” it is more dangerous. Simply put, it isn’t.

A person shooting at me from any distance trying to mark me is different then a person purposly firing into my throat when the intention of threatening and harming. Sure, I can get hit in the throat during normal play, and sure, it is dangereous, but because (typically) nobody is trying to hurt you it is different. Just like a verhicular accident that causes a death is different from intentionall running someone down.

No, you didn’t sign a waiver that said you agree to be threatened with harm by a paintball marker. But you also didn’t sign a waive that you will not be overshot or bonus balled either….. but for each of those situations you surely would not advocate deadly force would you? Again, you are not thinking logically, but emotionally… and the courts will not see such a distinction as you are trying to make.

But I'm not talking about overshooting or bonus balling or anything except being intentionally threatened with a paintball gun at pointblank range to the throat. Not all situations are the same.


Again, you are wrong. You clearly show that you don’t know that law. You are only playing games now. And games that would not hold up in any court of law.

The law allows people to take measures to ensure their own survival against those who would threaten their lives.


You would have to prove that shooting was the level NEEDED, not that it was sufficient. And that is where many of your arguments fall flat.

No, I would have to prove that shooting was the level I thought was needed. And in this case, y arguement would be that pushing the person back didn't suffice, because they still have the intent and means to harm me, and the only maeans at my disposal to remove both the intent and means was the firearm.


Have you? So have I, as well as enforced the laws. And I can tell you that your perception of what the laws are are very far from reality. And if you teach others similar thought processes, I hope your students never have to USE their weapons… for they may end up in Jail… and no amount of “My instructor told me…” will help them.

Whatever Shart. And when you students end up on the slab I'll tell my students that what hesitation gets them.


I agree with you on this. That was never in debate. But your ideas of what is legal for self defense against a brandished paintball marker are wrong, and terribly so. If you shot someone (with a handgun) KNOWING that all they had was a paintball marker….. you are going to jail. Period.

I am still almost certain a person could get off with doing it. There are always circumstances that could prove me right or wrong, but when I feel I am in danger, I take my chances with a jury before I take my chances with my life.


And in pulling a knife you have increased the level to much higher than I believe a court would find necessary as well. You see, it takes less effort to simply push the barrel off your neck than it does to pull a knife and use it. And in fact, in the time it takes to do that, you could actually be shot. Try convincing a jury that you thought it was better defense to take the time to find and pull a knife over simply using your arm/hand to push the barrel away. Sorry, it would not hold water.

Again, pushing the gun away is not sufficient in my view. Although once the gun was a few feet away the lethality is basically zero (not counting freak accidents) but if I don't have a mask I'm still not confident that no harm will come to me. He needs to lose his means of harming me before I relax.

[branman444]

Shartly
Let us take Ice Hockey for a minute…. Do you remember the player that had assault charges filed on him for using his stick in a manner that was not part of the game? Now, I don’t think anyone would argue that a hockey stick can kill someone. But if that same person had put the stick up to another player’s neck during a break and threatened him, and the other player SHOT him for doing so… how can you even think of justifying that level of force? You simply can’t. Anything over the initial removal of the “weapon” is unjustified. And even less so if that “weapon” was used because the person using is thought he was using it to protect HIMSELF from you. LOL

I could justify that and so could the law. My Carrie law plainly states that if i feal in imenant danger at any time i am fully protected by law to at least pull my weapon.

Shartly
You people who think you know about things because you have a “permit” to carry a gun sure need to take some courses on the matter. Guess what? You can even be charged for SHOWING (brandishing) your gun if it is not justified. And I have found that MOST people don’t have the slightest clue what is legal and what is not….. watching LA Law, Hill Street Blues, and whatever other TV shows (and movies) is a bad way to learn the law. And it appears that this is where some of you Paintball Field Lawyers have gotten your information from.

For your info i dont watch those shows to get my law. i have read and reread the Oklahoma state conceal laws. I have been in three class for or about it and feal that i have a verry good understanding of the law. So just to prove you wrong for good. I am good friends with a couple of Judges in my county and the Dist. At. and i have several family members that are in law inforcement. I have made it a point to call or talk to everyone of them to get a good idea of the ins and outs of this. ALL i repeat ALL of them agreed that i would have been in perfect accordance with the my state law to at least pull my weapon and one of the Judges said and i quote. Yes you could have shot him and it would have been totaly self defense and you would have been protected by the state law. Thanks Judge my point proven thats that. I also want to remind you what i said in the post. I stated that i would have been fully within my rights to cap him with a 9. I didnt say i would have. Remember that im not stupid. I dont think that was cause for me to shoot him but he would have been looking down the barrel of my GLOCK 27 and would think twice about putting that thing on my neck again!!

[shartley]

Originally posted by branman444
Shartly
Let us take Ice Hockey for a minute…. Do you remember the player that had assault charges filed on him for using his stick in a manner that was not part of the game? Now, I don’t think anyone would argue that a hockey stick can kill someone. But if that same person had put the stick up to another player’s neck during a break and threatened him, and the other player SHOT him for doing so… how can you even think of justifying that level of force? You simply can’t. Anything over the initial removal of the “weapon” is unjustified. And even less so if that “weapon” was used because the person using is thought he was using it to protect HIMSELF from you. LOL

I could justify that and so could the law. My Carrie law plainly states that if i feal in imenant danger at any time i am fully protected by law to at least pull my weapon.

Shartly
You people who think you know about things because you have a “permit” to carry a gun sure need to take some courses on the matter. Guess what? You can even be charged for SHOWING (brandishing) your gun if it is not justified. And I have found that MOST people don’t have the slightest clue what is legal and what is not….. watching LA Law, Hill Street Blues, and whatever other TV shows (and movies) is a bad way to learn the law. And it appears that this is where some of you Paintball Field Lawyers have gotten your information from.

For your info i dont watch those shows to get my law. i have read and reread the Oklahoma state conceal laws. I have been in three class for or about it and feal that i have a verry good understanding of the law. So just to prove you wrong for good. I am good friends with a couple of Judges in my county and the Dist. At. and i have several family members that are in law inforcement. I have made it a point to call or talk to everyone of them to get a good idea of the ins and outs of this. ALL i repeat ALL of them agreed that i would have been in perfect accordance with the my state law to at least pull my weapon and one of the Judges said and i quote. Yes you could have shot him and it would have been totaly self defense and you would have been protected by the state law. Thanks Judge my point proven thats that. I also want to remind you what i said in the post. I stated that i would have been fully within my rights to cap him with a 9. I didnt say i would have. Remember that im not stupid. I dont think that was cause for me to shoot him but he would have been looking down the barrel of my GLOCK 27 and would think twice about putting that thing on my neck again!!

LOL Yeah, right! I bet that is the case. LOL

Now figure in that the JUDGE will be presented with arguments from both lawyers (both sides) and their interpritation of the "Law". And we all know that ALL judges agree with what all other judges think a Law means... right? ;) Oh, could I get the name of this Judge?

I know that Judges' rulings are overturned each and every day. So you thinking that ONE Judge agreed with you does not make it correct, or even within the law. Sorry.

I will bet that you would end up in prison if you tried that (actually shooting someone). Sorry pal. I have actually BEEN in the "business" and actually dealt with the laws.

No, you don't think it would be "cause to shoot him", but argue that you would be within your "rights" to do so by law? LOL

Let's agree to disagree on this matter... and you put your trust in whoever you want, and I will put my trust in what I know to be true. We will both live our lives the way we want and do as we think is best and "legal". And I hope you, or anyone else, doesn't have to test who is right.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by shartley

Sorry none of this is relevant. Spin any situation you like, that is fine. The only real issue is what DID happen, not what would happen on the street, or any of the other silly stuff folks keep trying to justify any actions for.

And no, that is not what I said (about the waiver), and you know it. You can spin your own stories and words, but please don’t spin mine. I was clear in what I said.

Good day. ;)


No, your wrong. My situation involved somebody using a marker other than what it is intended for. The marker was used outside of a game to threaten someone. That makes it a weapon. As a cop, you should know that.

[shartley]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
No, your wrong. My situation involved somebody using a marker other than what it is intended for. The marker was used outside of a game to threaten someone. That makes it a weapon. As a cop, you should know that.
Um.. no, you are wrong.. to a point. You are over simplifying the situation. And AS a former Police Officer I know that NOTHING is looked at as if it was in a vacuum. When determining what is going to happen in any given situation ALL of the facts are taken into account, not just the ones YOU want to use. And sorry, when everything about this situation is taken into account, your case falls a bit flat.

Again, it is a good example of people not knowing the complexities of how laws really work when in practice, VS what they think they can get away with using jailhouse lawyer tactics. You are VERY lucky things didn’t go the way it COULD have gone.

You are free to think what you like, but some of us know the truth. And no amount of over simplification and situation spin can change how things would have played out in court.

LOL Do what you think is legal and best for you. I personally don’t care. It will not be ME, after all, that you call when you get arrested and/or are in jail for doing what you think was justified by the law. ;)

[gam-e]

Originally posted by shartley

Let's agree to disagree on this matter... and you put your trust in whoever you want, and I will put my trust in what I know to be true. We will both live our lives the way we want and do as we think is best and "legal". And I hope you, or anyone else, doesn't have to test who is right.


Thats the most scathing passive aggressive remark ive heard from you shartley. I honestly don't know what state you are from, but i promise you that here in Texas we would be within our rights not only to brandish but to dispatch someone who is threatening our lives with lethal force. (such as was described in this situation)

you mock him saying that his personal beliefs were that "lethal force was not needed", but that he was in his rights to do so. I understood that perfectly well, and i believe you did too. I honestly believe that you are trying to manipulate everyones comments to support your theory.

I guarantee you that here in the south, or south west in my case;) a judge would rule in our favor. You are correct, not all judges would rule the same.


Lets argree to say that you are manipulating everyones comments to support your argument, is that wrong, by no means, it after all supports your argument, but does it make your argument correct, NO. Flat out no, if you live up North, i can see your argument holding true, not in all instances, but that is just my personal belief. Wow i see this comment being turned around...may I

LOL...personal belief...thats what you would use in law, and that what you base your decisions on. Which is of course not what i said at all, but you'll interpret it that way

My suggestion is to stive to make the correct inferences that the poster wanted you to achieve.

Dion

[WicKeD_WaYz]

This is what I know from personal experience. No matter how much somebody runs there mouth, the person to pull out a weapon will be charged and cant use the excuse "he was talking crap". If you pull a weapon you take the situation to the next level.

Let me tell you a story that happened to me once ill try to shorten it. When I was in 8th grade me and 2 of my friends were walking down the street. Friend number one was being really mouthy and really obnoxious. We were crossing the street in the crosswalk and a car tried to turn right on red without looking and literally almost hit us. My buddy got mad and slammed his hands down on the hood of the guys car.

The guy then followed us a block and got out looking to fight. My friend , being cocky and stupid, stepped up to this 20 year old guy. My friend told the guy he would whip his *** basically. I was standing there the whole time watching. Since there were 3 of us and one of him the guy went back into his car and pulled out one of those big, long black flashlights that cops use. He then came over and threatened us with it.

The whole time a neighbor was watching this. The neighbor happened to be a retired LA county police officer. He came outside, after calling the police, and held the guy until the police arived. To make a long story short. A detective came and talked to my friend about the situation. The detective basically said "the guy claims you guys were being mouthy and challenging him, but that does not justify him taking out a big flashlight with an intent to hit someone. We can press charges for assault if you would like" (funny its assault even though knobody was assaulted) My friend did not press charges. We really dont get into that legal stuff.

But thats my experience and thats what I base my statements on. I know that does not apply to every situation but thats what im referring to when I say the person who pulls a weapon brings the situation to a whole new level. Basically, being cussed at is not a valid reason to threaten someone with a weapon.

[shartley]

Originally posted by gam-e



Thats the most scathing passive aggressive remark ive heard from you shartley. I honestly don't know what state you are from, but i promise you that here in Texas we would be within our rights not only to brandish but to dispatch someone who is threatening our lives with lethal force. (such as was described in this situation)

you mock him saying that his personal beliefs were that "lethal force was not needed", but that he was in his rights to do so. I understood that perfectly well, and i believe you did too. I honestly believe that you are trying to manipulate everyones comments to support your theory.

I guarantee you that here in the south, or south west in my case;) a judge would rule in our favor. You are correct, not all judges would rule the same.


Lets argree to say that you are manipulating everyones comments to support your argument, is that wrong, by no means, it after all supports your argument, but does it make your argument correct, NO. Flat out no, if you live up North, i can see your argument holding true, not in all instances, but that is just my personal belief. Wow i see this comment being turned around...may I

LOL...personal belief...thats what you would use in law, and that what you base your decisions on. Which is of course not what i said at all, but you'll interpret it that way

My suggestion is to stive to make the correct inferences that the poster wanted you to achieve.

Dion
Actually that is NOT what I was doing. LOL But whatever.

You keep touting what you think they will allow you to do in Texas all you want. And I will sit back and tell you that I think you are wrong. And if and when someone at a paintball park shoots another player down with a firearm for pointing their MARKER at them, we will all see what happens and who is right. Texas also has the death penalty too right? We may see that come into play as well.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of the law. It is that simple. I am not twisting situations. I am not twisting people’s word. I am simply stating that as it went down, I think even in Texas shooting someone for what HAPPENED (not all the other scenarios folks want to toss out) would land someone in jail. And again, the only way to show who is right, would be for someone to actually shoot someone for what actually happened.

Until then, it is only a matter of how we each see the law. You believe what you want, and I will believe what I want. And as someone who has had to enforce similar laws, I will trust my beliefs over someone who has not. This is not an insult, just stating the basis for why I think as I do.

Fine… we disagree. Big deal. Does it change things? No. Did anyone learn anything from this thread? Probably not. Is violence in general suddenly being celebrated on AO concerning Paintball? Sure looks like it lately. Does this worry me? You bet.

[hitech]

Okay, this is probably going to come off as a flame, oh well.

We can argue semantics all day long, however, none of you REALLY believe that you could get away with shooting someone with a firearm because ON A PAINTBALL FIELD someone placed a PAINTBALL GUN BARREL to your neck.

If you really are trying to claim you do you are either lying, crazy or just plain stupid. :(

[bornl33t]

dang shart, 3 thread I've seen where your handing out. coffee no good?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Heat
dang shart, 3 thread I've seen where your handing out. coffee no good?
LOL No, the coffee was fine. Don’t get me started about one of my clients though… LOL (No, not a paintball related client. ;))

[Albinonewt]

I've said basically all I can on this matter, but I do find one thing intersting.

Shart feels that he is right, and I'm wrong, because he's a law enforcement officer and I'm not. And as a law enforcement officer he knows more about the law. I dispute his claim, but I understand where it comes from.

But, the Judge that someone else was talking about is also dwarfed in legal knowledge compared with the almight Shart. His opinion is wrong, and other judges would see it different, but because he's a law enforcement agent he's right.

Tell me, is there anyone that knows more about the law then cops?

Anyone?

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
...the Judge that someone else was talking about...His opinion is wrong...

As far as I know, no judge has posted in this thread. Someone is telling us their interpretation of what a judge said/ruled on. You CAN'T find a judge that will state that it is legal to shoot someone because on a paintball field, during a paintball game someone put the barrel of a paintball gun to your neck. It ain't gonna happen.

[gam-e]

Originally posted by shartley
Texas also has the death penalty too right? We may see that come into play as well.

We execute more people anually than any other state.

Cool, we disagree, I still respect you, and i believe your smarter than I am. I am still a youngin.

Southern states are different than Northern states, i believe because of the Southern values difference. Whereas one state may see something like this as horrendous and unjustifiable, one will see it as horrendous and justified.

I am not advocating violence; I am advocating self-defense, and whenever a situation that places someones life is in danger is present, the need to take corrective measures to ensure their saftey is imperative.

Thanks for replying to my thread in a couteous manner
Dion

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
I've said basically all I can on this matter, but I do find one thing intersting.

Shart feels that he is right, and I'm wrong, because he's a law enforcement officer and I'm not. And as a law enforcement officer he knows more about the law. I dispute his claim, but I understand where it comes from.

But, the Judge that someone else was talking about is also dwarfed in legal knowledge compared with the almight Shart. His opinion is wrong, and other judges would see it different, but because he's a law enforcement agent he's right.

Tell me, is there anyone that knows more about the law then cops?

Anyone?
LOL No, that is not why I feel I am right. Funny you would think so though. I don’t think I am right BECAUSE I WAS a law enforcement officer and you are not. Do I say it is a factor in why I feel the way I do…. It comes from actual experience in both laws, interpreting laws, and enforcing them…. of which I have not seen any such experience from your end. This is not a slam, nor an insult.. just an observation.

It would be like me trying to argue how to operate on someone with a Doctor, or former Doctor. I could claim I talked to 10 doctors, and read 50 books, and talked to the President of the AMA, but none of that would outweigh the doctor’s actual knowledge and experience. Also there would be no way to verify that I was actually extending to the folks I am talking to what actually happened.

I also did not say the Judge was dwarfed in legal knowledge compared to me. And I would appreciate it if you keep all your insinuations to yourself and deal with what I actually posted… not what you want to read into it.

Are Judges always right? Nope. Ever watch the Supreme Court? The VOTE on issues. And guess what? They can’t even all agree on issues involving the law. So to think what ONE judge says IS the way something is, would be folly at best. Why do you think there is the appeal process?

So, please… if you want to argue the points, do so. If you want to argue about ME, don’t. Wrong horns to grab a hold of…. ;) Don’t make this a personal matter. Keep on topic.

[shartley]

Originally posted by gam-e


We execute more people anually than any other state.

Cool, we disagree, I still respect you, and i believe your smarter than I am. I am still a youngin.

Southern states are different than Northern states, i believe because of the Southern values difference. Whereas one state may see something like this as horrendous and unjustifiable, one will see it as horrendous and justified.

I am not advocating violence; I am advocating self-defense, and whenever a situation that places someones life is in danger is present, the need to take corrective measures to ensure their saftey is imperative.

Thanks for replying to my thread in a couteous manner
Dion
Oh come on now….. you know I don’t disrespect you in any way (or I hope you do). I don’t know if your “courteous” comment was sarcasm or not. LOL I certainly didn’t intend to NOT be courteous… feisty, sure, but not discourteous.

As for Northern VS Southern States… it seems that you are under the impression that I don’t know about Southern States. Let me clear up any confusion…. I just moved back up from Oklahoma about 6 years ago (I think.. LOL). I am full aware of how Southern States differ from Northern States, and even East Coast States from West Coast States. :)

I also know that even in Southern States people are not as familiar with the laws as they think. And many times it has to do with personal protection, home protection, etc. What they think they can do and what they CAN do are often quite different…. Unfortunately. And I advocate self-defense as well… but also advocate the use of appropriate force. One does not mean the absence of the other.

Again.. I don’t think this issue will ever be resolved here on AO… and I hope and pray that it never has to be resolved in court.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by shartley

As for Northern VS Southern States… it seems that you are under the impression that I don’t know about Southern States. Let me clear up any confusion…. I just moved back up from Oklahoma about 6 years ago (I think.. LOL). I am full aware of how Southern States differ from Northern States, and even East Coast States from West Coast States. :)
resolved in court.


Uh, dude, Oklahoma ain't no Southern State.

And in general I refuse to believe you ain't a yankee!

:D

FatMan

[shartley]

Originally posted by FatMan


Uh, dude, Oklahoma ain't no Southern State.

And in general I refuse to believe you ain't a yankee!

:D

FatMan
LOL How about Louisiana? I spend some time there too. :D (I lived right on the Texas border when in OK though.)

And that is Damn Yankee! ;)

Seriously though, I do prefer the south. Attitudes in general are much different. I also find the south a much more friendly place than the north (in general). It was one of the things I really noticed moving back up here.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
I do prefer the south.

If you could just get people to stop smoking inside public places it would be much nicer (lived near Charleston, SC for a while). ;) And no beer on Sundays, what's up with that! ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech
If you could just get people to stop smoking inside public places it would be much nicer (lived near Charleston, SC for a while). ;) And no beer on Sundays, what's up with that! ;)
I know what you are talking about. It was not uncommon (in fact QUITE common) to see folks pumping gas smoking a cigarette and then walking into the gas station / convenience store to pay for it…. even had ashtrays inside next to the stacks of soda. :)

As for no beer on Sundays…. Be glad that was all. Some places don’t sell alcohol ANY time. Louisiana had dry Parishes. (Parishes are Counties for those not familiar.) But they have some DAMN good Crawdads……. A bushel of cooked crawdads, a bowl of drawn butter and a 6 pack of beer!!!!! Mmmmmmmmmm Now THEMS is some good eats. ;)

(Think we have successfully hijacked this thread? GOD I HOPE SO! ;))

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
As for no beer on Sundays…. Be glad that was all. Some places don’t sell alcohol ANY time.

That would have been taking it too far. I wouldn't have moved there!


Originally posted by shartley
But they have some DAMN good Crawdads……. A bushel of cooked crawdads, a bowl of drawn butter and a 6 pack of beer!!!!! Mmmmmmmmmm Now THEMS is some good eats. ;)

(Think we have successfully hijacked this thread? GOD I HOPE SO! ;))

I couldn't agree with you more! :D It was a New Orleans Police Officer (rest his soul) that introduced me to crawdads. Beer I already had figured out. ;)

[Albinonewt]

Bottom line Shart, you are obviously willing to take a lot more risks with your life then I am mine. When someone puts me in a life threatening situation they can expect to come out of it in a wooden box. I do not tolerate that even in the slighest. I'd rather have to explain to a judge and jury why I felt threatened then a priest explan to wife "God's Will" and all that.

As for your past experience. Nearly every post you've written is littered with references to it. Not that there's any reason not to mention it, but you're sole basis for argueing is "I know the law because I enforced it". Your knowledge of the law is clearly suspect, and I find it curious that you don't consider the afore mentioned situation to be of an elevated threat to life and limb. That's very curious to me.

As for the person that mentioned no judge had posted. Branmann had mentioned that he spoke to judges about this very issue. I have no reason to think he's lying so I was referring to his post. Now, obviously there are plenty of opinions from a lot of different people, but, if those judges can see the possibilty for a successful defense then it is hardly out of the question to concede that it is possible (although certainly not guaranteed).

Frankly Shart, with every passing comment you make I begin to wonder exactly how well you know what you're talking about. You're stretched logic gets so weak at points I have trouble taking it seriosuly (If overshooting isn't life threatening then putting a barrel to the throat isn't, etc.)

Fact of the matter is this. A paintball gun to the throat is very very dangereous. There is almost certainly a chance (albiet probably a low one) of being killed in such a manner. As such a person could reasonably feel his life was threatened. And because a person could reasonably deduce that his life was threatened he is protected, under the law, to employ force. Is the defense perfect? No, of course not. But does it work? Yes, it certainly does. There is always the chance that it won't and you'll end up in jail, but I'd rather take 50% chance of being imprisoned then a 1% chance of being dead.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

I think the original argument still stands that if he wouldn't have over reacted, flipped out, and started cursing him out, the guy wouldn't have done anything "Life Threatening" in the first place.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by hitech
Okay, this is probably going to come off as a flame, oh well.

We can argue semantics all day long, however, none of you REALLY believe that you could get away with shooting someone with a firearm because ON A PAINTBALL FIELD someone placed a PAINTBALL GUN BARREL to your neck.

If you really are trying to claim you do you are either lying, crazy or just plain stupid. :(

Unless the law has changed in Texas I beleive it stood that deadly force was justifiable to prevent a felony - assault and battery (for those of you who this confuses - it did me, assault is the threat of physical force, battery is the use of force). I do know this in Michigan, if someone attacks me with his fists and is just trying to hurt, not kill me and I (assuming I am able to physically compete with them) respond with deadly force (ie pull a gun - try to kill with my hands) that person than has the right to readjust his level of force to deadly in defense, even though he started it. That is screwy as hell, but tells you, if you pull a gun you better be ready to use it.
Anyways, just my rambling thoughts, comments, etc.

[Recon by Fire]

That does it. All of you, to your rooms! And no dinner for you either!

[gam-e]

i personally prefer this thread more when we talk about crawdads and beer.

im sad that we didn't hear about some dat coonass gumbo. THATS some goot eats.

far as i know here, you cant sell beer on sundays until 12:00 noon. hehehe, take that.

Sorry Shartley, OK is no southern state. Louisianna is. I find my home in Mississippi and Alabama though. Nothin clears my mind like some good ole red dirt.

Lets keep this thread light-hearted now and talk about good food and beer, and as long as we are talkin about the South, lets talk about some of Grandaddy's WHITE LIGHTNIN.

WOOT!
Dion

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Bottom line Shart, you are obviously willing to take a lot more risks with your life then I am mine. When someone puts me in a life threatening situation they can expect to come out of it in a wooden box. I do not tolerate that even in the slighest. I'd rather have to explain to a judge and jury why I felt threatened then a priest explan to wife "God's Will" and all that.

As for your past experience. Nearly every post you've written is littered with references to it. Not that there's any reason not to mention it, but you're sole basis for argueing is "I know the law because I enforced it". Your knowledge of the law is clearly suspect, and I find it curious that you don't consider the afore mentioned situation to be of an elevated threat to life and limb. That's very curious to me.

As for the person that mentioned no judge had posted. Branmann had mentioned that he spoke to judges about this very issue. I have no reason to think he's lying so I was referring to his post. Now, obviously there are plenty of opinions from a lot of different people, but, if those judges can see the possibilty for a successful defense then it is hardly out of the question to concede that it is possible (although certainly not guaranteed).

Frankly Shart, with every passing comment you make I begin to wonder exactly how well you know what you're talking about. You're stretched logic gets so weak at points I have trouble taking it seriosuly (If overshooting isn't life threatening then putting a barrel to the throat isn't, etc.)

Fact of the matter is this. A paintball gun to the throat is very very dangereous. There is almost certainly a chance (albiet probably a low one) of being killed in such a manner. As such a person could reasonably feel his life was threatened. And because a person could reasonably deduce that his life was threatened he is protected, under the law, to employ force. Is the defense perfect? No, of course not. But does it work? Yes, it certainly does. There is always the chance that it won't and you'll end up in jail, but I'd rather take 50% chance of being imprisoned then a 1% chance of being dead.
And you are well within your right to think what you want. If you want to think I don’t know what I am talking about, DO SO. But you would be wrong, but there is nothing that says someone can not be wrong.

I used my experience as an EXTRA reason to believe what I do, not the ONLY reason. And I believe I already stated that.

I also did not say that shooting a paintball at someone’s neck is NOT dangerous. I AGREE that it IS dangerous. But I don’t agree that it is LIFE THREATENING. ;) That is where the big distinction in our positions come in. And I stand by my opinion that in MOST states if not all, the use of DEADLY FORCE (note that I am not saying ANY force, or NO force) is not justified. I am in NO way saying that people should LET someone hold a paintball marker to their neck and threaten them for ANY reason. LOL So your comments about me being willing to take more risks with my life are bunk…

I also don’t think there is a 1% chance of DEATH from being hit in the neck by a paintball. With all the paintballs flying around in a game (look at tournaments), they would REQUIRE neck protection if that was the case. It is good to have a healthy respect for the equipment, but this has shown an unhealthy fear of it. As well as you taking what I said out of context, YOU have stretched my points. (Your comment about me supposedly saying…. overshooting not being life threatening so putting a barrel to the throat isn’t, etc. That is taken out of context… as in much of what you are saying.)

I am saying that a person is a complete idiot if they think they need to shoot someone with a handgun if threatened with a PAINTBALL MARKER, as opposed to pushing the marker aside. It is a matter of what force is justified and needed to protect yourself. And if you, or anyone else thinks that a handgun is needed to protect yourself from a PAINTBALL MARKER, they have some serious problems. And I for one would be willing to bet (as has been stated) that a jury would think so too.

If you don’t think so, fine. If you feel that it is NEEDED or JUSTIFIED to shoot someone with a handgun when they threaten you with a Paintball Marker, fine. So stop trying to argue with me on the matter. Just hope I am not on the jury of someone who does shoot someone with a handgun for being threatened with a paintball marker…. Or anyone else that knows anything about paintball is on the jury either.

Originally posted by gam-e
i personally prefer this thread more when we talk about crawdads and beer.

im sad that we didn't hear about some dat coonass gumbo. THATS some goot eats.

far as i know here, you cant sell beer on sundays until 12:00 noon. hehehe, take that.

Sorry Shartley, OK is no southern state. Louisianna is. I find my home in Mississippi and Alabama though. Nothin clears my mind like some good ole red dirt.

Lets keep this thread light-hearted now and talk about good food and beer, and as long as we are talkin about the South, lets talk about some of Grandaddy's WHITE LIGHTNIN.

WOOT!
Dion
I like the crawdad conversations better too! :D

But what is it with you folks and saying OK is NOT a southern state? It is more south than a good many other states that folks claim to be southern. Alabama and Mississippi have red dirt? Why do you think they call the Red River “Red”? ;) Oklahoma is full of red dirt. And you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between OK and TX if you didn’t see the sign that said you were entering one or the other. And I think most would consider Texas as a southern state…. Or is it a Western State?

Maybe that is it? The distinction lies in southern VS western? Or Southwestern? How about this? Oklahoma is a Southwestern state. :D

Well, with that said, Louisiana is MUCH different than Alabama (where I spent some time as well.. both Alabama and Louisiana), but you call them both Southern. And then again, when living in Louisiana I would often travel into Texas and most of the folks along the border were just like the folks in Louisiana. This is SO confusing! ;)

[FatMan]

Originally posted by shartley

I like the crawdad conversations better too! :D

But what is it with you folks and saying OK is NOT a southern state? It is more south than a good many other states that folks claim to be southern. Alabama and Mississippi have red dirt? Why do you think they call the Red River “Red”? ;) Oklahoma is full of red dirt. And you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between OK and TX if you didn’t see the sign that said you were entering one or the other. And I think most would consider Texas as a southern state…. Or is it a Western State?

Maybe that is it? The distinction lies in southern VS western? Or Southwestern? How about this? Oklahoma is a Southwestern state. :D

Well, with that said, Louisiana is MUCH different than Alabama (where I spent some time as well.. both Alabama and Louisiana), but you call them both Southern. And then again, when living in Louisiana I would often travel into Texas and most of the folks along the border were just like the folks in Louisiana. This is SO confusing! ;)

OK is western (or southwestern) state. It may have the same kind of dirt as Alabama (how much dirt DID you eat in Alabama?) but its culture is notwhere near the same. It takes more than a few years to understand - REALLY understand - southern culture. Louisiana and Georgia are VERY different, but they both have a very strong common underlying southern culture. Its a southern thing, you wouldn't understand.

Just for reference, I grew up in Louisiana, and I've lived in S. Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. And I've known people from a lot more places than that. Just for reference.

As for Texas ... its kind of Hybrid. Its so darn big parts of it are Mexican, parts are Southwestern, and yes, parts are southern. And the regions aren't contiguous. Houston and Dallas are southern, Austin isn't.

And Shart, don't mention Alabama ... it makes you look inbred!

:D

FatMan

[branman444]

I couldnt agree more... Ok is suthern state i live about 30 min from the ok tx border and have 20 achers of nice red dirt if some of you dont believe that we have it. the south shall rise again hehehe.
I also want to clear something up I stated that i would be protected by law to brandish my weapon. I didnt say i would have shot the guy. Never ever did i say i would shoot him. Just said i could. I value life more than that. What i was getting at is that what he did(push him down and his friend fire a couple into him) wasnt that bad concedering i couldhave shot the guy. I think people that dont take guns well pintball guns in this case, serious need to have some smarts beat into them. Think about it if he dont have any more respect than that for a paintball gun what would have happened if he had access to a real gun. I dont know i still think i would have beat the crap out of him for that weathor i go to go back to the feild again or not. I have enough land and friends to play with.

[shartley]

Originally posted by FatMan


OK is western (or southwestern) state. It may have the same kind of dirt as Alabama (how much dirt DID you eat in Alabama?) but its culture is notwhere near the same. It takes more than a few years to understand - REALLY understand - southern culture. Louisiana and Georgia are VERY different, but they both have a very strong common underlying southern culture. Its a southern thing, you wouldn't understand.

Just for reference, I grew up in Louisiana, and I've lived in S. Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. And I've known people from a lot more places than that. Just for reference.

As for Texas ... its kind of Hybrid. Its so darn big parts of it are Mexican, parts are Southwestern, and yes, parts are southern. And the regions aren't contiguous. Houston and Dallas are southern, Austin isn't.

And Shart, don't mention Alabama ... it makes you look inbred!

:D

FatMan
Don’t mention Alabama because it makes me look inbred? LOL How does mentioning a state make anyone “look” inbred? If that was the case, what about Kentucky? ;) I have an associate in Kentucky and I rib him about being inbred all the time… and he was not even BORN there. :D

You are right, I would not understand a “southern thing”, only those BORN in the south would. :rolleyes: But you would know about “northern” things though right? ;) How about that Vermont and New Hampshire are neighbors and both “Northern States” but are VERY different in culture and attitude. And Mass is different than both of those… and heck, Upstate NY is different than Lower NY.

This is all silly………..

[Recon by Fire]

Hold on thar' par'ners! Ya'll forgeting we here in Texas are not simply a region of the US, why we all are The Republic of Texas (our state seal at the capitol even still says so!). Texas is western, southern, etc...it is just Texas :) Hell even in Texas, talk to the people here and you will find Texas has its own regions: North Texas, West Texas, Central Texas, East Texas, The Valley, Gulf Coast or Souteast Texas!

Ya'll damn yankees! Oh wait, i'm a damn yankee too :)

I asked my In-Laws if they knew the difference between a Damn Yankee and a Yankee, they didn't. I told them a Yankee was a person from up North. A Damn Yankee was a person from up North who comes down and marries their daughter :)

[branman444]

No that would be a DAMNED yankee!!! I have a bunch of family that lives in Mi. that camoe here from germany. we go and visit MAN i wouldnt want any of those nuthiners marrying my daughter. She is only 2.5 so i dont have to worry about it for a while i guess.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by shartley

Don’t mention Alabama because it makes me look inbred? LOL How does mentioning a state make anyone “look” inbred? If that was the case, what about Kentucky? ;) I have an associate in Kentucky and I rib him about being inbred all the time… and he was not even BORN there. :D

You are right, I would not understand a “southern thing”, only those BORN in the south would. :rolleyes: But you would know about “northern” things though right? ;) How about that Vermont and New Hampshire are neighbors and both “Northern States” but are VERY different in culture and attitude. And Mass is different than both of those… and heck, Upstate NY is different than Lower NY.

This is all silly………..

You don't understand it, therefore it's silly ...

Typical.

I don't know anything about Nawthun "culture" ... don't want to either.

FatMan

I'm a Southern man, born and raised! There really isn't much left to be said.

[shartley]

Originally posted by FatMan


You don't understand it, therefore it's silly ...

Typical.

I don't know anything about Nawthun "culture" ... don't want to either.

FatMan

I'm a Southern man, born and raised! There really isn't much left to be said.
Yeah, that is it exactly. :rolleyes: Because someone does not AGREE with you, they don't "understand"..... you are right.... Typical. ;)

[branman444]

Fatman
You don't understand it, therefore it's silly ...

Typical.

Can anyone say ouch

[shartley]

Originally posted by branman444
Fatman
You don't understand it, therefore it's silly ...

Typical.

Can anyone say ouch
LOL Not likely. I would have to NOT understand it for it to be true... typically it is NOT true. ;)

Fatman is not the determining factor of what is and what is not Southern. Fatman is not the determining factor of what each part of any state is or is not. And my post just showed that in many places one standard can not be used to decide what is and is not the "standard" for a state. Heck, even cities have variances in culture. THAT was my point.

And what I thought was silly was to sit and argue about it and act like others don’t know or understand something that they very well might understand and know. Being born in the south or even living in the south does not give someone some “inside information” that anyone not living there or who has not lived there all their lives does not know. LOL To think so is another thing that is silly.

See my reason for the use of “silly”? ;)

[branman444]

Hey shartly do you do those wood grips yourself? Man i need to get hooked up with a set. Im looking at getting a blade intelli and would like to have a set for it.

[shartley]

Originally posted by branman444
Hey shartly do you do those wood grips yourself? Man i need to get hooked up with a set. Im looking at getting a blade intelli and would like to have a set for it.
Thanks, and yes, everything on my site is mine (or done by me and my wife…. The grips are done by me though…. Starting with raw lumber.). Shoot me off a PM or E-Mail and we can talk about what you need/want.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by shartley
Fatman is not the determining factor of what is and what is not Southern. Fatman is not the determining factor of what each part of any state is or is not. And my post just showed that in many places one standard can not be used to decide what is and is not the "standard" for a state. Heck, even cities have variances in culture. THAT was my point.

But you, AND YOU ALONE, are the determining factor of when someone's life is and is not in jeopardy?

Doesn't sound fair to me. If you get the life and death thing, then Verticall Challenged Guy (I don't like fat, so anti-PC) should get the southern thing.

Sorry Vertically Challenged Guy, sounds like you got ripped off.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


But you, AND YOU ALONE, are the determining factor of when someone's life is and is not in jeopardy?

Doesn't sound fair to me. If you get the life and death thing, then Verticall Challenged Guy (I don't like fat, so anti-PC) should get the southern thing.

Sorry Vertically Challenged Guy, sounds like you got ripped off.
That is not what has happened. I expressed my interpretation of the law and what my opinions were… nothing more. I have stated time and again that folks are free to decide for themselves what THEY want to think. Nothing more.

Again…. Nice of you to twist what was actually written or what I actually think or believe. Maybe you should go back and read all my posts again and in context?

Seriously, there is a difference. But again, feel more than free to think what you want… that is your right. :) Can we drop this now?