Tourney Legal VS Who Cares

[shartley]

I see in posts all the time about things being Tourney Legal or not. Well, it seems to me that the vast majority of paintball players will never enter a tournament, or spend most of their time playing in non-tournament situations.

With this said, why are so many people hung up on whether something is tournament legal or not? I can see worrying about it if you are going to play in a tournament, but a lot of things can be NOT used during those times and USED when you are not in a tournament.

I say if it is a good idea and folks would like it, but it does not conform to tournament rules, make it anyways. I say offer it for those who still make up the majority of the buying public… non-tournament players.

This of course is not a right or wrong issue. It is purely subjective and opinion based. With that said, I would like to hear what others think about it.

(Please be nice to folks and don’t attack others… just state what YOU think.)

[breg]

Agreed. I have played in a tourney, with my RT/Pro, it was just a local little get together.
I can understand what you would mean by "Who Cares." If all most players are going to do is play rec and other non-tourney, then why worry what the far-off NPPL or PSP rules are when the chances the your field has much the same rules? I can't think of one.
I remember a few games that were fun when I was young, and then we kept adding rules and rules until the game was no longer fun. Just something to think about.
Hey, I got an idea for Paintball! Let's just have a good time!

[afrankart]

I agree. Companies should manufacture products that are in their best interest financially. I know that I play on a 3 man team tournament once per year, but that would not stop me from purchasing a paintball marker or upgrade for an existing marker that makes it not tournament legal. I would just not use the marker or uninstall the upgrade before a tournament. I don't feel that the NPPL rules, or any other tournament rules should apply to people who don't concern themselves with tournaments. Although, if it were a saftey issue, such as velocity, companies and the players who use their products should be concerned not about the possibility of this product giving them an edge on the marketplace over people's safety and health. Please don't flame, I know that an extremely high rof can be dangerous, put so can the sport of paintball. Just my humble opinion.

Andy Frankart

[Wc Keep]

well actually things that are tourney illegal are also field illegal. full auto burst modes no beavertails on cockers, these are all tourney illegals and also field illegals. the only place they allow them is in scenarios (except for ot having a beavertail.

but you know what i dont really care. i dont mind if someone decides to open up on me full auto with his spyder.

[GT]

I agree Shart,
However I think the issue is a little more complicated than that. Most paintball folks are posers. They ahve to show up at the field with the newest coolest lasoya oouper doouper piant blending chic magnet and make everyone think that;
A. they are good
B. they can pic up chics at the field
c. they have money

In reality when I see folks like this that are not big tourney guys I then think;
A. They got no game
B. They got no game, picking up chics at a field is so lame. (I saw this tool lasttime I was out trying to spit that game at this poor girl there for a b-day party)
C. They blew all thier college cash for paintball crap, drive a crappy car and are now SOL


I think i need to go for a run. I am so "unhappy" that I didnt get out of bed intime for the AO tx meet today.

jb

[afrankart]

A local field that I play at has the proper insurance and allows full auto markers. I guess not all fields abide by the same rules. and FYI, it is my fav field.

GTRSI Where do you play? I never see any good looking girls play. Except for my fiance that is.

[RRfireblade]

In a non tourny situation, I don't really care.At our local field,We let the younger kids use auto modes and such just so it's still fun for them while stll trying to impress upon them the value in learning to improve thier shooting by "normal" means.
In my case though, I feel it's more of an honor issue.I play many sports and feel better about my ability to compete on a "Pro" level using "legal" equiptment.I use "tourny" acceptable Pball gear,I use USPGA legal clubs (14max:) ), My bowling balls are drilled with proper top and side weighting and all my archery gear conforms to the class I typically shoot,to name a few.
I feel my performance should and is based on my ability rather than an artificial enhancement, which is typically why most items are not tourny legal in the first place.

Jay.

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by gtrsi
picking up chics at a field is so lame. (I saw this tool lasttime I was out trying to spit that game at this poor girl there for a b-day party)


What's wrong with going after a girl that shares interests with you?

[GT]

Originally posted by afrankart
GTRSI Where do you play? I never see any good looking girls play. Except for my fiance that is.

Tank's paintball.


What's wrong with going after a girl that shares interests with you?

dating a pb chic is fine but trying to "hook up" while playing is a little week.

Here is the story;
we are standing there picking up folks and making 2 terams. this guy leans over and says "hey is that a chic? Is she hot?" Come on man I am here to play I dont give a crap how hot she is.

jb

[pbguy888]

I agree. I have played for 7.5 years and never played in a tournie...

[Torbo]

i agree. But i think that if an upgrade isnt tourney legal, there should be a way to make it so it is, or remove it without too much trouble. I mostly play rec, but have played in a few tourneys. I would buy something that is rec leagal, but not tourney legal, if i could stilll use the marker in the tourney.

[pito189]

Originally posted by gtrsi
C. They blew all thier college cash for paintball crap, drive a crappy car and are now SOL

So is it cool if I go to college, drive a crappy car, but still spend most of my money on paint, and tourney entry fees?

Until I get out of college, and get a job, where I can actually afford to have a nice car, what is the point in driving some pimped out chick magnet? Me and my 85 Accord, with 220,000 plus miles, do just fine on our own. ;)

ADDED: I am either having a practice for a tournament or playing in one. :)

[WARPED1]

Tourney legal is needed on all guns because the majority of established fields use the rules of major series', like some use NPPL rules modified to add thier own rules. We'll never be a sport until we have 1 SET of game rules, theres NPPL, PSP, APA(????), PAN/AM.......
Until then, we are just a game. A very cool game, but just a game............

[shartley]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Tourney legal is needed on all guns because the majority of established fields use the rules of major series', like some use NPPL rules modified to add thier own rules. We'll never be a sport until we have 1 SET of game rules, theres NPPL, PSP, APA(????), PAN/AM.......
Until then, we are just a game. A very cool game, but just a game............
I would add that a game, a very cool game, is actually all Rec Ball IS. ;) And actually, Rec Fields may use some of the same rules that tournaments use, but not all. And there are many gun modifications that could be made (to include trigger jobs) that would not be within tournament rules, but well within Rec Ball rules and standards.

Now, if you want to get one set of rules for all Tournament Play, I agree! But Rec Ball is not the same as tournament play, and allows much more flexibility in equipment and playing styles. And while some may say (as you did) that the majority of fields use the rules of major series… I would argue that major series have only expanded on the rules already used in the Rec Ball portion of the sport… and not the other way around. After all, Rec Ball was not developed from tournament play, but the other way around. ;)

Good posts though everyone. Keep them coming. :)

[spydervenom]

it seems that alot of tourney rules carry over to fields though.

but the field that i go to mostly(backyard) has only 2 rules

1.don't talk about fight club
2.do not talk about fight club

[Skoad]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
well actually things that are tourney illegal are also field illegal. full auto burst modes no beavertails on cockers, these are all tourney illegals and also field illegals.

fields i play at don't care, the more paint people use the better for them.

[GT]

Originally posted by pito189


So is it cool if I go to college, drive a crappy car, but still spend most of my money on paint, and tourney entry fees?

Until I get out of college, and get a job, where I can actually afford to have a nice car, what is the point in driving some pimped out chick magnet? Me and my 85 Accord, with 220,000 plus miles, do just fine on our own. ;)

ADDED: I am either having a practice for a tournament or playing in one. :)

I think you took my statement out of context. I did excatly as you did in school. There were many weeks of PB&J to pay for paint.

My statement was aimed at those who would rather play paintball then further educate themselves.

jb

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by shartley

I would add that a game, a very cool game, is actually all Rec Ball IS. ;) And actually, Rec Fields may use some of the same rules that tournaments use, but not all. And there are many gun modifications that could be made (to include trigger jobs) that would not be within tournament rules, but well within Rec Ball rules and standards.

Now, if you want to get one set of rules for all Tournament Play, I agree! But Rec Ball is not the same as tournament play, and allows much more flexibility in equipment and playing styles. And while some may say (as you did) that the majority of fields use the rules of major series… I would argue that major series have only expanded on the rules already used in the Rec Ball portion of the sport… and not the other way around. After all, Rec Ball was not developed from tournament play, but the other way around. ;)

Good posts though everyone. Keep them coming. :) While rec ball is great, we still need one set of rules to play by to be taken as a serious sport. Like backyard football or baseball, you use the NFL and MLB rules................

[shartley]

Originally posted by WARPED1
While rec ball is great, we still need one set of rules to play by to be taken as a serious sport. Like backyard football or baseball, you use the NFL and MLB rules................
They do? Since when? And you have to use full pads and helmets in Backyard Football? Heck, I could list many things that are not the same in backyard football and baseball than in their professional counterparts. And I have never busted out the official NFL rulebook when playing backyard football.

And one more question… since when were backyard football or baseball “taken as a serious sport”? ;)

[Muzikman]

Now, it's not all fields, but the two main fields around me that I have played at the most both follow tournament rules (NPPL) pretty close. And actually as things go they are a little more strict on thing such as bunkering. For instance, they do not allow Shocker Turbos. I don't think manufactures want to take the chance that the gear they make today will not be able to be used at any fields (Tournament or not) tomorrow. I mean this is already starting to happen and I'm sure it is costing them money.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Muzikman
Now, it's not all fields, but the two main fields around me that I have played at the most both follow tournament rules (NPPL) pretty close. And actually as things go they are a little more strict on thing such as bunkering. For instance, they do not allow Shocker Turbos. I don't think manufactures want to take the chance that the gear they make today will not be able to be used at any fields (Tournament or not) tomorrow. I mean this is already starting to happen and I'm sure it is costing them money.
Has having multiple firing modes caused manufacturers to lose money?

Seems to me, that FA capabilities are often used to demonstrate the speed of a product… yet is not allowed at most fields, tournament or otherwise.

I am not talking about making a paintball marker that has no ability to fall within tournament rules, I am talking about extra stuff that although may make the markers (or other products) not tournament legal, would be fun, nice to have, etc. Heck, look at the rules tournaments have for hoppers, stickers, etc. Those rules are not usually applied to Rec Ball.

There are countless things that can be made that don’t conform to tournament rules, but Rec Players would LOVE them and be able to use them at just about any field they go to. I am in no means saying MARKER MANUFACTURERS should produce a MARKER that do not have the “ability” to be tournament legal. But that does not mean that features can’t be added to it that may not… like you said, some places don’t allow Shocker Turbos, others don’t allow burst modes, etc. but markers still come with that stuff. ;)

And I can’t for the life of me see how adding MORE choices and products would cause a company to LOSE money. Seems to me that they would make MORE money by allowing a wider choice for the consumer, and not tailoring their ENTIRE line to fall within tournament rules. I would be willing to bet that even if big disclaimers were attached to a product that does not fall within tournament rules, but the product was a good one, it would still sell. Again, how would that cause a company to lose money?

Heck, when was the last time you saw Jimmy who just purchased an entry level Spyder run out to play a tournament? Come to think of it, I don’t think Spyders are even known for being the “thing to have” for a tournament. Can they be used in them? Sure. Are they great markers for their price? Sure.

What I am saying is that there is a VAST market out there that would purchase non-tournament legal products if they were good products. I am all for “safety” restrictions or rules to be set by the INDUSTRY, but NOT be set by tournament organizers. They do not run the industry, they run a small part of it. Can you imagine if the organizers of auto races were to suddenly determine what auto products can and can not be made, purchased or used by the general public that will most likely never even enter into an auto racing event? ;)

I think some people are thinking too narrow on this issue. I am talking a WIDE range of products and accessories for products. And I think we can all list more than a few products out there that DO sell that don’t meet tournament requirements. My question is why do I always see “Is that tournament legal?” asked about almost every cool new idea posted about. And even more so, coming from people who will most likely never enter one.

Sometimes a product is a good product and idea, no matter if it is tournament legal or not. And making/selling it would not cause a company to lose money…. And never would….. unless the entire industry adopts one set of rules and standards that are followed to the letter by EVERY field (rec/tournament) out there. And I find that highly unlikely. Why? Because we don’t even see that with other sports.

[RRfireblade]

I think generally speaking,most people look up to the "Pros" of thier choice and buy what the "Pros" are using.As evidence of the common phrase,"It must be good 'cause you see Tourny players using it/them."

Also Paintball is expensive for most and they don't want to spend money on something that might lock them out of a Tourny even if the don't think they would play in one,just in case.

I also believe that most feel that something labeled "Not legal for Tourny play" must be cheating of some sort even in Rec ball play.What do most people feel about Full auto and burst modes? Most think it's cheating and unfair against others who have semi only guns.

As a whole I think most want to emulate the Pros in whatever sport they enjoy and feel better competing with "Legally" accepted equiptment.Of course there are some who will take any edge they can get and feel fine doing so.

Jay.

[Jerhew]

I also believe that most feel that something labeled "Not legal for Tourny play" must be cheating of some sort even in Rec ball play.What do most people feel about Full auto and burst modes? Most think it's cheating and unfair against others who have semi only guns.

what about grenades?
they're perfectly legal in anything but tournaments....
i'm not going to comment on the actual effectiveness of them
they're actually not that easy to use...
but they're definitely not tourney legal...

and the whole full auto thing is a total conspiracy...
i personally feel that it's not an unfair advantage in the
first place...but even when i used f/a i made sure everyone was okay with it and made sure that teams are even

when playing in a rec ball situation, it's important to split the teams evenly...
it'd be just as unfair to have a team of angels/emags...vs newbies with spyders as it would to put a group with full auto against them

and i hate to have to say it again(because i always say it)
but
what's more dangerous...a gun with a trigger you can breath on and it goes off
or full auto with a 1 pound pull...

most people in general are just misinformed and don't think for themselves.

[Halliday]

Most people "think" they are/could be Pros, look up to the Pros, and want to shoot the latest and greatest thing that the Pros are using.

[lamby]

I agree to a point.. If you want to make a rec/senerio marker or equipment sell it as such and post a disclamer like:

"This marker, in its current state, does NOT comply fully with the governing rules of the nppl/psp. Use of this marker in santioned tournament play, or play at certian governed recreational fields, may lead to disqualification, penaneltys, or suspensions. Purchase this item at your own risk."

Don't lie to the people like AGD did with the E/X mags, and say a marker is legal if it is not.

I mostly play tourney ball, a big game here and there, and maybe a "back to our roots" rec game. My equipment MUST be tourney legal. I dont care what you rec ballers do. If you use full auto or use illigal guns on your field I just wont play there.

My 2c

[oldsoldier]

Ah, the X-mag is fully tourney legal. No modes of fire.

[MidnightRider]

I guess I don't know why the minority group/tourny players get to dictate how the majority/rec players play the game of paintball. IF I was to enter a tourny and my current setup was not leagal then I would adjust or switch markers. I have enough odds and ends in the toolbox to possibly build a whole new low end marker. And even if that didn't work I would just go to the field owner, as I would only play a tourny at my local field, and work out some way to enter the tourny leagaly.

Who cares if a rec player in a rec game is shooting full auto? It just allows them to go through their full paint supply for the game in just a minute or more. Makes for easy picking for me.:D

Like others have said... Just my $0.02

Peace

MR

[Meph]

Because things labeled tournament legal generally are also required any ways for all insurances.

Example, RVA. Hardly see them without "tourney-legal lock" right? Well that lock is also there for most rec-fields as well. Might be labeled "tourney" legal, but it's general fields as well.

Beaver tails, same thing. Locks on regulators too!


It's just a label.

[pito189]

Originally posted by lamby
Don't lie to the people like AGD did with the E/X mags, and say a marker is legal if it is not.


Again with this?:rolleyes: I thought we resolved it as being an over zealous ref and your fault. :p

[aaron_mag]

Interesting discussion! I'll be interested to see what the tourney players post. Personally I'd love to try out more tournaments but other obligations make regular tournament play/practice an unrealistic option. That being said I tend to follow Shartley's line of thinking and focus on if the upgrade will be fun and leave it at that. To be honest all the debate on what is legal and illegal has confused the heck out of me. I still don't know if my retro is really legal or not but figured that it doesn't matter too much in my case.

One thing I wish they had, however, is rec tournaments. I play in a summer lacrosse league where you pay $85 for 8 games. There are no practices and it just is fun/for the heck of it. There are tons of softball/flag football leagues that people do as well. I think paintball is missing this element of recreational competition. Sort of off topic but if any leagues like that were created it makes you wonder if it would get bogged down in rules on markers (that Spyder has three modes of fire....etc) or if it would rely on the honor system and keep with the spirit of recreational competition.

[logamus]

i think as someone posted earlier that many fields are adopting tourny rules as their own. i personally dont really care about all the rules, but the insurance companies do. i have played games with folks that can shoot their semi faster than some fa's so i dont really understand why fa is not allowed more. as long as rec fields dont restrict rt triggers (even the 2 shot 1 pull versions) i will be happy.


Originally posted by aaron_mag
One thing I wish they had, however, is rec tournaments. I play in a summer lacrosse league where you pay $85 for 8 games. There are no practices and it just is fun/for the heck of it. There are tons of softball/flag football leagues that people do as well. I think paintball is missing this element of recreational competition. Sort of off topic but if any leagues like that were created it makes you wonder if it would get bogged down in rules on markers (that Spyder has three modes of fire....etc) or if it would rely on the honor system and keep with the spirit of recreational competition.
thats a great idea!

[lamby]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


One thing I wish they had, however, is rec tournaments. I play in a summer lacrosse league where you pay $85 for 8 games. There are no practices and it just is fun/for the heck of it. There are tons of softball/flag football leagues that people do as well. I think paintball is missing this element of recreational competition. Sort of off topic but if any leagues like that were created it makes you wonder if it would get bogged down in rules on markers (that Spyder has three modes of fire....etc) or if it would rely on the honor system and keep with the spirit of recreational competition.

Paintball Sams in Wisconsin has just that.. It is called "Bar Wars" and the goal is to go to as many "card punch stations" as possible and get your card stamped. I have yet to play because I work nights. but it sounds like fun. They follow the same rules as they do for open play: semi only; 285 chrono; I have used my emag there many times with out an issue.