'Lil something to share with you guys... [Archive]

Army

08-18-2001, 03:25 PM

Picked this of COL Hackworth's (http://www.hackworth.com) site. In case you don't know who the Colonel is, he was the most highly decorated soldier out of Vietnam to include; multiple Silver Stars, multiple Bronze Stars, multiple Purple Hearts, and handfulls of nearly every other combat and performance medal/ribbon available. He also is a vet of the Korean War, where he began his illustrious career. He retired in disgust and dismay at the military industrial complex, which seemingly governs the how-where-why-when of Pentagon decisions. Get his first book: About Face, and read of this Hero's life and times in the Army.

Anyhoo, check this out, it reflects my personal statement on the silly new beret we will be forced to wear:

Ballad Of The New Beret (In response to last week's Hack Notes: the tune will never go out of our heads; how 'bout these lyrics!)

Ballad of the Black Beret (to the tune of "the Ballad of the Green Berets")

Copyright J. Bartlett 2001

I see a boy, Army of one,
I notice that, he has no gun,
While others march, away he run,
SF I guess, wasn't much fun.

Our forces lie, in disrepair,
Good soldiers leave, out of despair,
The ones in charge, don't seem to care,
My boy will pay, when bugles blare.

Chorus
Upon his head, the Chinese Fez,
Load up your clip, with cherry Pez
How could it come, to this my prez,
Get up and go, the general sez.

My boy junior has a gun,
Black beret, but bullets none,
When it's time, we know he'll go,
With one hand tied, to Kosovo.

He might as well, have sling and rock,
Care for the troops, is so much talk,
Chinese fez, upon his head,
Won't do much good, against hot lead.

Chorus
Upon his head, the Chinese Fez,
Load up your clip, with cherry Pez
How could it come, to this my prez, vGet up and go, the general sez.

My boy, junior, had a gun,
When fighting came, he didn't run,
They sold him out, those bunch of bums,
He might have lived, with a loaded gun.

Oh, Chinese fez, upon his head,
He bought the lies, the things they said,
They told us that, he would be lead,
He tried his best, but now he's dead.

Chorus
Upon his head, the Chinese Fez,
They play a tape, he's laid to rest,
How could it come, to this my prez,
It's not our fault, the general sez.

.

Look at www.hanoijane.net (http://www.hanoijane.net) if you want to get tweaked off.

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shartley

08-18-2001, 03:45 PM

Thank you for your post.

I will NOT get into what I think about the Black Beret issue.... but let it be known that it could not be repeated in mixed company.

I will also not get into what I think about what has happened to the US Armed Forces in the last 10 years either. But I think YOU can understand my meaning.

Once again, thank you for your post. It means more to me than many will know.

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

beam

08-18-2001, 08:55 PM

Army---

i went to the hanoijane site, but i can't figure out what went on. what is the thing with jane fonda....visiting vietnam or something? sorry. but could you just sum up what that is all about? thanks.

beam

Army

08-18-2001, 09:54 PM

Oh beam, now you made me feel really old!

Jane Fonda, fresh from her B movie "Barbarella" and a short career in French soft porn, went to North Vietnam, Hanoi, Haiphong harbor and the infamous "Hanoi Hilton". While there, she did TV and radio speeches for the foreign (european mostly) press. A horrific photo of her was published, showing her looking through the sights of an anti-aircraft gun while wearing a Soviet style helmet, and smiling. She commented, before visiting American POWs, that she sympathized with the downtrodden peoples of Vietnam, that "the US fascist led aggression was wrong" and that Nixon was a criminal. When she met with some of the POWs, one tried to pass a note to her to give to US officials. She was smiling when she handed the note to the prison guards, telling them that "the pig was trying to escape or something". That POW was beaten to near death later. Immediately following her Vietnam visit, she made impassioned speeches imploring that "if you really understood communism, you would do anything to become a communist".

Jane Fonda should have been tried for a treasonous act and hanged. Nearly all Vietnam veterans who were actually there (most that you hear of or know of, never went there) would gladly spit on her grave, after me.

Her father never forgave her.

Not too many years ago, she was filming in a small northeastern town. The local veterans of all wars disrupted filming at every opportunity by picketing loudly near every location. They ran her and the film crew out of town. hooah

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fenris69

08-20-2001, 12:47 PM

fonda is a traitorous ...lady of ill repute...you know exactly what i wanted to write. and im not even american. people like that however sicken me. if theres justice something horrible will occur to her. feel sorry for her old pete tho...

Her father is HENRY Fonda, Peter is her brother http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Army (edited 08-20-2001).]

Thordic

08-20-2001, 02:04 PM

Yeah, I had a math teacher who hated her. He was in Vietnam (Captain in the Army Rangers). He did all sorts of stuff, but doesn't talk about it much. All the stuff he did tell me just made me go wow. Funny thing is, he was on the 'normal' side. There was another teacher there who was an MP the whole war, and barely saw combat. (He had to defend a base against a light attack once.) That guy was half out of his mind, while the math teacher was fine.

I guess it points to the difference between going through Ranger training and being drafted and preparedness for war, etc.

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CamoSplashed MiniMag
S/N MM12913
Clear AGD Warp Feed
14" SP AA

Lots of stuff coming...

Army

08-20-2001, 04:46 PM

Thordic, there is a book titled "Stolen Valor". It exposes much of the myth and lies about so-called Vietnam veterans. Did you ever wonder why every VV you meet, was in the thick of combat? Only 8% of all personell in-country were combat arms, the rest were support ops. Why haven't we met, or heard from, any of the other 92%?

I raise the BS shield whenever I come across a guy who says he was in major battles "in the 'Nam". "...hell, there I was, knee deep in grenade pins, burning up the last of the fifty-cal firing from the hip and spraying the tree-line. I ran through the mine-field, since I was the only one who knew where the mines were, and captured that VC General. On the way back I grabbed my wounded buddy, threw him over my shoulder and while he kept firing at the Viet Minh with the Generals' AK-74..."

Whenever I see a raggedy guy in old fatigues, with tons of military type patches sewn all about and wearing a "boonie" hat, my first instinct is to think "POSER".

99.999% of men who have truly seen the horrors of combat and stared death in the face, will barely speak of it. The loudest, wildest talkers must be taken with a grain of salt, and a spoonful of doubt.

'K, off my soapbox!

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Magadeth

08-20-2001, 05:09 PM

I played paintball with a guy who was supposed to be sf in nam. At first, I had the same reaction as you Army, but after watching him in action, I started to believe it. The clincher for me was after I got to know him, he was telling a story about his unit being attacked. When he got to the part about getting shot, he pulled up his shirt and showed us the scars. he wasn't bragging on them, just using them as a visual aid in a story that started out as an explanation of tactics. I've got to say I have utmost respect for him and all other combat vets.

Personally, having been shot just about everywhere possible playing paintball, I have 0 desire to be involved in the real thing.

shartley

08-20-2001, 05:10 PM

THANK YOU ARMY!

That was quite refreshing. And so true. Most of us could tell a few stories about our experiences.. but we DON'T. We don't flaunt our Uniforms with ribbons.. we keep them safely tucked away in our closets, and share them only with a trusted few close friends and family.

Talking about experiences are aimed at discouraging war and not glorifying it. Killing and being killed is NOT cool.. it is something that sometimes has to be done. And using it as a conversation piece to "impress" is a tragedy.

I think I will stop at that, but once again.. thank you very much.

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

Army

08-20-2001, 07:27 PM

Magadeth: I've got a swell scar on my stomach, and I'm missing a couple of digits which could easily be transformed into "combat injuries". There were very few actual SF combatants. The Job of the Green Berets in Vietnam was to teach the indiginous population better ways to grow their rice, proper care of a water buffalo, basic modern first aid, and how to defend themselves. SF troops did NOT go looking for a fight, and did all possible to avoid one. An A-team was only but a handful of men, no way they would be brave enough to tackle a company sized element!

Not to "diss" your friend at the field, but do you know enough military tactics to judge what he is doing? I do not know him, so I shouldn't really comment, BUT(!) how old is he? He should be between 52 and 62 years old. Given that; after enlisting or being drafted at age 18, going through 1.5 months of basic training, anywhere from 1-15 months of AIT (depending on your MOS), and THEN if you are chosen, you go to SF qualifications, but only if you have achieved the rank of SPECIALIST 4 or Sergeant E-5. SPEC 4 takes minimum of 15 months to achieve. Back in '72 this was 4 months long. If you can pass the quals, you are now eligible to try out for SF! Now, you must have already passed a number of mental and psychological tests by this time to show that you are level headed and can think under pressure. If you are chosen to try out for SF, you will now go to Ft. Bragg for at least 1 year total, depending on the assignment in SF you want.

Now I'm only guessing the guys age, as he is playing paintball, which is not geared toward upper middle aged folks (stop iiit, I'm only middle aged!). So, with using logic from reading your post and using my timeline, the youngest he could be is close to 52 years old. Clincher in all the above I have written, is that all ground troops had been pulled out by August of '73, including ALL SF personel. My timeline has him SF in the states at best.

Now I may be absolutely wrong of course, but I have seen and talked to too many "been there, done that" kinds of guys telling guys like you all about their combat days. Just like Shartley says, after seeing the blood and gore and horror of battle, you don't want to remember it again to a bunch of kids who wouldn't understand.

"whew"

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MagMan5446

08-20-2001, 07:56 PM

I've never actually heard a war story. The first and only time I asked about it, the response I got was "you don't want to hear about it".

Most of my family is or was in the military. Only one was in battle on the ground. All the rest were in the Navy, and my grandparents were in the Air Force. My grandparents were in WWII. The Army Ranger in the family was in Vietnam, 3 uncles were also in Vietnam. 1 was in Air Force, one was a grunt in the Navy(the only one that was drafted) and one was on the Halavec(submarine). All of them have seen and participated in battle, and have the scars and medals to prove it.

The only time that I asked was when the whole family was at my grandparent's house down south. Everyone could talk about it except the one that served on the Halavec. They all said the same thing, "You don't want to hear about and I don't want to talk about it."

cphilip

08-22-2001, 12:59 PM

Hey Shurtly...what program do I use for an .ra file?

Phil

shartley

08-22-2001, 01:05 PM

Real Audio. Comes standard with most Windows Systems. But you can get a free player on their site, if you don't have one...

http://www.real.com/

Yes, it will LOOK as if you need to buy one, but look closer, you will see the FREE version. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

cphilip

08-22-2001, 01:06 PM

Dooooohhhh! http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

cphilip

08-22-2001, 02:03 PM

Well...Sam...there is a reason all Karaoke machines are in Bars. I'll listen to it again when I'm drunk... (j/k http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif)

shartley

08-22-2001, 02:08 PM

LOL Thanks. Like I said, it is not very good.. but it is the thought that counts. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

Army

08-22-2001, 03:46 PM

Thordic, please don't get me wrong http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

It's not that I do not believe you or your friend. You see, I'm around a LOT of real (seen the paperwork), "been there, done that's" all day and have become cynical, perhaps too much so, when I hear about someone telling their war stories.

Go to your city library and see if they have "Stolen Valor", it will open your eyes in shock and shame.

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Magadeth

08-22-2001, 04:20 PM

Army, the gentleman I was refering to is at least 65, and is one of those guys you just don't see when you play woods ball. He was not bragging about being in nam, Just elaborating on the use of full auto as fire support for the rest of your team when he kind of got sidetracked and told us about an actual incedent. He generally plays only in the morning, because his arthritis tends to get the best of him.

As for being a judge of military tactics, I have not served, but I have played paintball since the late 80's and consider myself to be a little better than average. This old fart regularily smoked me when we played. Now paintball and combat are two entirely different things, but many of the skills involved are the same.

I'm not sure exactly what he was involved in and have mostly heard about it second hand. I do not have the right to ask him, so I wont. The one time he talked about it did not seem like bs to me.

seekandestroy

08-22-2001, 05:50 PM

ive been in the army for 10 yrs im getting out next month i dont know what happened to the army i joined the standards just dissapeard.i think its a reflection of the times. kids arnt raised with the same values i was brought up with and that extra week of values training in basic isnt going to instill this in them especially since a lot of nco's dont care anymore the last 5 pvts ive received in my section have all received feild grade art15's this is a step below court marshal for you civilian types sad thing is that now im required to send them to the promotion board after 2 yrs these guys are the future of the nco corps thats why im getting out and the black berret is a slap in the face to all who have earned it. i know i didnt

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essayons

Army

08-22-2001, 08:53 PM

Magadeth: If I got your dander up, that was not my intention. Please, accept my sincere apologies.

Yes, you are right, Pball and combat are not related but the skills involved can be used either way. Since you are a veteran of the "woods wars", you can judge the tactics used by your friend as to be genuine. You mentioned he only spoke of his service offhand, this is telling of the man. As you know from the above posts, bloodied vets won't simply yak on about where they have been.

Do me a favor? Next time you see him, shake his hand and thank him for his service. Too many real 'Nam vets never got that. Don't worry about sounding or looking sappy, no Soldier ever hears or sees it.

As for his arthritis, boy can I relate to that http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

HOOAH!

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shartley

08-22-2001, 11:15 PM

ARMY, and everyone.... this is for all of us who gave....

http://www.gbsu-usa.net/boss/gaveall.ra

Yes, it is me. Sorry it is not the greatest, but I just happened to run across it today after talking with Phil. Turn up the volume and hold on to your Adams Apples.

It still gets to me.

(added note.. back up now. Pull away.
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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 08-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 08-22-2001).]

Thordic

08-22-2001, 11:22 PM

Army, if you don't believe me, look him up if you can. Cpt. Kenneth Dandorph. I have his email address if you really want to get picky http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif I'm PRETTY sure he was a captain, anyway. That I could be wrong about. And a lot of what he did was with the south vietnamese army. Training type stuff. I never said he killed 3 billion people, I just said he did some cool stuff that made me go "wow".

And I admitted that other teacher was a crackhead. He supposedly saw combat once when whatever he was policing came under fire, but I can't back that up, and "came under fire" could be a stray firecracker. The first guy I have every reason to believe is legit, though.

I also had an ex-Navy SEAL teacher, but the closest he came to doing anything was being somewhere in or near Panama during that mess at the airport. He wasn't there, but he was a SEAL at the time, and he was somewhere down in central america when it happened. Probably sitting in a hotel room or something, but he never claimed combat anyway.

[This message has been edited by Thordic (edited 08-22-2001).]

beam

08-22-2001, 11:28 PM

Not to send this thread into a whole new direction, but i was talking to my dad the other night. He went to Vietnam. All i know is that he processed arial sp? recon. photos. He was far away from the major action.

Things that I get from what little he talks about it are: the B-52s were awesome, but the F-4s were even better. He loves that jet.

That's it. A major piece of who my dad is....what he served through and that is all I have!

Well, when we were talking, we were comparing my grandpa, a WW2 vet, and himself. You see, WW2 was probably the highlight of the century for the US. We rallied behind that cause like no other. When the vets returned they were heros.

Nam on the other hand was different. But you see, a lot of soldiers in Nam were son's of WW2 vets. They knew what their dad's did and how they were treated upon return, but got no such glimpse of heroism.

Now, before you say, "Well, Nam wasn't a war." I say, SO WHAT! We are sending our troops to die somewhere, then we best rally behind them! I hope to someday be able to talk to my dad and get more specifics about what he did and how he was treated. But because he talked about it so little while i was growing up, it's like it never happened.

btw, thanks Army for explaining the whole Jane Fonda thing. I had no idea. It makes me mad.

Magadeth

08-23-2001, 07:59 AM

No need to apologize, I just wanted to clarify.

"Do me a favor? Next time you see him, shake his hand and thank him for his service. Too many
real 'Nam vets never got that. Don't worry about sounding or looking sappy, no Soldier ever
hears or sees it."

Allready have. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Dogbone

08-23-2001, 07:55 PM

Army or anyone else who knows, could you tell me why this horrible decision about the black beret was made? I haven't really heard why this was done but I don't like it and have let my representative and senators know that I don't like it. My dad was SF and I have friends who were Airborne or Ranger, I've heard how hard they worked for the privledge of wearing those funny hats. This decision to make it general issue just seems so disrespectful that I cannot make sense of it. What's the explanation?

shartley

08-23-2001, 08:16 PM

I think it was a Pride thing. They wanted to give the average soldier an ego boost of sorts.

I can understand this. They were thinking of bringing back a red beret for Field Artillery, some years back. And I think it is a good idea.

But their choice of colors was WAY off. They could have used a Grey or OD Green, and it would have been fine. But they wanted BLACK. I agree with the Rangers, it is a slap in the face to now offer a hard earned beret to the average soldier.

Do our troops need an ego boost THAT bad? This would indicate a serious morale problem (one that the last administration claimed was not there). Just wearing the uniform and serving our country should be an ego boost in itself.

But as many have pointed out, things have sure changed. Besides, berets are a pain when you have to stand in formation for any amount of time. The Softcap would still be my choice. Unless you were going to a special function, THEN the beret looks sharp.. but after certain hours you don't use headgear when at special functions in class A's or Dress Blues anyway.

Maybe Army can elaborate on the finer issues involved here with this Black Beret?

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

Army

08-23-2001, 10:20 PM

Shartley is right on.

GEN Shinseki was never a line troop, always drove a desk. Which means; he does not have the slightest idea what the average GI thinks or wants.

95% join the military for the discipline and feeling of worth to the Country, God knows you can't make a living at it. Problem is, the military had been "dumbed down" so much that you can't get the discipline you craved. The Army and Navy went to what is called a "stress card". This running joke is for when you feel the Drill Sergeant is "picking on you", you can hand in your card and the DS has to give you a "time-out". What a crock of..... Needless to say, this has brought moral to an all time low.

Did anyone know that, right now, we are at a lower readiness level than before WWII? Right now, we could not stage another Desert Storm. Right now, we could not sustain against a maximum effort by North Korea. Right now, we could not send 3 complete Naval battle groups to anywhere in the world. Right now, we do not have a single complete Division in the Army. Right now, we do not have the lift capability to deliver a full tank Battalion to anywhere. Right now, we can not fly a full Apache flight without unsustainable breakdowns. Right now, less than 40% of GI's can hit a 25m target correctly 21 out of 40 times.

I'm just sticking around to see what happens next http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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seekandestroy

08-24-2001, 06:47 AM

army where did you get that info?it dont sound entirely correct to me.we might not have the numbers we had before but the world is differant now.we still have the most powerful military in the world.what unit are you in?

shartley

08-24-2001, 12:02 PM

Good reading for anyone who believes the people touting that there is NOT a problem with our military and its readiness to fight major conflicts.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/future/experts/warready.html

Don't believe the HYPE. There IS a problem, and burying our heads in the sand will not take care of it. I know this may be hard to hear if you are IN the Military at this time.... but, although sometimes the truth hurts, you can not fix a problem unless you deal with it head on.

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

fenris69

08-24-2001, 01:04 PM

lol..problem? cmon. theres more than a prob. its called public opinion. im getting out of the canadian military, ive had enough bullcrap for a lifetime in the last 4 1/2 years.not sure when i stopped caring but it was sometime in '99. think the U.S. has it bad? I've only been doing militia stuff for the last couple years and on the west coast somedays i can't even walk the 15 min it takes to get to base without hearing some sort of comment...its really disheartening. the beret thing? heh the CF goes through so many uniforms the word has lost its meaning, but i agree that was garbage, and surprising...we always say "well at least the states doesnt..."etc. one thing i like about the states tho, and ill never forget is when i see a bumper sticker "my son/daughter is in the ....whatever branch" thats the type of attitude that i think is failing. youd never see that up here. noone wants to know your alive unless its to complain about having to pay the pitiful amount you get for such dirty thankless work. so to Army, i hope you'll always wake up giving a crap about what you do, cause its an empty day when you dont. I can no longer bring myself to care about people who dislike me so, and a system pumping out soldiers i feel nervous about sitting beside on a range let alone a live fire situation. but heres on for the road and those like Army strong enough to still care HOOAH!

fenris69

08-24-2001, 01:12 PM

btw thx shartley , terrific article.

shartley

08-24-2001, 01:17 PM

No problem.

As you can tell, it sickens me as well.

Hey.. but a lot of the false information is from the same people who brought you the "Army of One". So much for the team. http://www.automags.org/ubb/frown.gif

I fear that like most things, it will only get worse before it gets better. Heaven help us.

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

seekandestroy

08-24-2001, 01:20 PM

interviews with civialians and used up has beens is one thing but go to any instalation and ask the troops what they think.were the ones who do this stuff every day were the ones asked to lay our lives on the line i think were the ones who should be asked about our readiness level not dan rather.the army does have a recruiting problem not in quantity but in quality this can be fixed with a boost in pay.why join the army when you can make more money at burger king?the other problem we have is standards and the enforcement of them half our army is either fat or cant pass a p.t. test and no one seems to care keep in mind that the army reserve and national gaurd are factard in to these reports and lets face it they just dont cut it.ill repeat the question for army and shartley what unit are/were you in?whats your mos? dates of service? ever been in actual combat if so where?

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essayons

[This message has been edited by seekandestroy (edited 08-24-2001).]

shartley

08-24-2001, 01:57 PM

seekandestroy:
WOW!

Please tell me when you said this:

interviews with civialians and used up has beens is one thing but go to any instalation and ask the troops what they think
you were NOT talking about those in the Article I posted.

If you were.. words fail me. Maybe this is an indication of another problem? Some of us have put in more time and chewed more dirt than the majority of those serving today.

We have seen the progressive decline in standards, discipline, respect, etc. And you know what? Sometimes those doing the job are a bit too close to view things correctly.

And now you want to ask Army and myself for OUR credentials? Who do you think you are? I have served in MANY units.. when you ask what unit someone served in, it only covers a short amount of time. If you spend more than one enlistment in the service, you will see MANY units.

And in fact some of us have held more than ONE MOS and designation WITHIN those MOS's. I for one was both a 13F until I attained the position of section leader, and then switched to 95B. Both MOS's found me in Instructor roles as well as normal leadership positions, daily duties and special assignments. When I left active duty, I was assigned to a Reserve Drill Sgt Battalion in TX.

And then after THAT point, my continued service to my country did not end.

I have just given you far more information than you deserve to have. I find your questions insulting and sickening. I am not going to give you stories of things I have been through, or elaborate any further than I already have.

You need to do some serious self reflecting. I will apologize for your rudeness to all other Service Members and Former ones. You may not like me as a person, or think I am full of it.... but don't you dare insinuate that YOU are the only person who knows what the deal is simply because you are currently in the service.

And DON'T ask us questions as if it is some sort of TEST we have to pass for your personal approval. We have passed our tests in the field. We have also passed our tests with our selves, our country and our families.

I will also apologize to everyone else reading this. I am sorry for going off like this..... I hope you all understand.

(added note: If I misunderstood your intention and spirit of your last post, I hope you understand my position and accept my sincerest apologies.)

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 08-24-2001).]

Bub3814

08-24-2001, 03:19 PM

i really dont have much to add here, but this was quite a compelling thread...

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~Bub~

"It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."
-Dizzy Dean

seekandestroy

08-24-2001, 06:23 PM

i think you took that the wrong way but im not going to appoligize and i stand by my oppinion.

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essayons

shartley

08-24-2001, 06:55 PM

No problem, if I took it the wrong way, than I have already apologized. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

And that being the case, my post still provided enough information to answer enough of your questions. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

Army

08-24-2001, 07:26 PM

I own the 45B30, K30, and L30 MOS's, plus a 52D (hey, sometimes you need power tools!).

See my profile. From the people and ranks I deal with on a daily basis, I get a lot of backdoor info. When Pentagon personel tell me that the US military is a no-go, well, I tend to believe them and not Shinseki and his "enhanced brigade" brigade. (Light forces against tanks, what is this idiot thinking?)

Let me ask you what you do. You have grown disheartened with the system, and choose to bail instead of correcting those violations that you told us you witness. Do you do on the spots? If someone is disrespectful to the rank or uniform, do you lock their heels and dress them down? If not, why not? If the NCO's don't chew a little butt when a lower enlisted fails the standards, then the downward spiral will continue. WE are the backbone and strength of the Army, and when we fail the troops, the troops will fail you.

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http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/blackeye/linkcoolMIR.gif Got Elves?

seekandestroy

08-25-2001, 06:20 AM

army yes i do problem is the majority of the time my c.o. tells me to back off that its not that big a deal if pvt.snuffy walks from the motor pool to the company area with out his top on or spc.smith missed formation this morning.i used to be a 12b but reclassed to 62e afew years ago currently 62n
i have served as opfor at jrtc and i dont see the problems shartly pointed out bluefor for the most part does an outstanding job against every thing we through at them if you want to talk about weak military look at canada

shartley

08-25-2001, 01:25 PM

Actually, I pointed out general issues. They did not involve Opfor training. So, I am a bit confused with your comments. Army was the one pointing out major training problems. However, you can not take Opfor training as a true indicator of troop and overall Military readiness.

Those are limited training exercises in a controlled environment, and for a brief period of time. It lets you know an individual company's or battalion's readiness and training against a limited opposing force.... nothing more. If you take that and think it is a true indicator of your Military's overall capability.... you are going to have problems.

And am I the only one to notice that each subsequent post seekandestroy makes, he uses increasingly poor grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and improper military terminology? I may be wrong about this, but for someone claiming to be an NCO in the United States Army and having served for 10 years, quite a bit of what he says brings doubts to my mind. And this is not nitpicking, trust me.

It is not only the BIG things, but also the little things like:

if pvt.snuffy walks from the motor pool to the company area with out his top on 
Most everyone actually working in the motor pool would be found without their blouse on, and when the heat index rises above a certain point, the Post Commander would order safety restrictions to work… and one of them would be to not wear your “top”. If this was the case, then it would not be an issue since he was only following orders. And if this was NOT the case, I am confused.

Why would a CO get involved with a simple uniform violation? If a pvt was walking without his blouse on, I don't think ANY CO would tell an NCO to back off from telling the PVT to put it back on. And if the pvt did not, or caused a problem, the CO would NOT stand for this. But if an officer were to be involved, wouldn't it be the place of the Platoon Leader?

And noone has a problem if a soldier misses formation? If this was the case it sounds like a serious problem with your unit.

I could go on.... but I think most get my point. Something smells rotten in the State of Denmark.

I am not saying this guy is NOT who he claims to be, but if he IS, and judging from his posts at a minimum, there seems to be some other issues at stake. Even my Wife saw the inconsistencies, and could not believe that what she saw was coming from an NCO. This "NCO" seems to have a problem with Officers, lower enlisted, and other Nations' Armed Services. However, too much of what I saw in his post confuses me and brings serious doubt as to the actual truth of the matter.

Personally I could care less if he WAS or wasn't an NCO, but I hope if he IS, he is not an indication of the majority of the NCO's serving today. This is not a flame and if anyone thinks it is, I am sorry. I was just pointing out some valid issues. This guy is representing Army NCO's in a public forum.

My wife just looked over my shoulder and said, "It sounds like this guy just saw a couple movies, or lives by a base and knows a few people. I don't know any NCO that would actually talk like that."

She also told me of some things that happened to our Niece (who is fairly new to the service) who was a couple minutes late to formation, and all her privileges were taken away. Sounds reasonable to me.

I don't know, but like I said, something just does not ring true and this concerns me greatly. And since it also reflects directly on NCO's, of which I am proud to say I was, as well as Officers and the Military in general... I don't think I am wrong in my questioning these so very obvious issues. I would be willing to bet that there are many other personal issues here that are not being said, and should not be aired in this forum.

Of course if he was to say he was drunk every time he posted.... I would suggest he may have a drinking problem, but I would also then understand his posts more clearly. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif But if he wants to continue to express himself and his thoughts on the issue of Military readiness and the abilities (or lack there of) of Foreign Countries, might I suggest also providing some proof to back up his claims (as Army and myself have done) or at a minimum provide a rational well thought out and written argument?

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

seekandestroy

08-25-2001, 04:44 PM

well excuse me for not being mister grammer.
now your going to call me a liar oh well i guess theres nothing i can do about that is there?the reason behind my questions that you so eloquintly declined to answer was to make a point all reagan/cold war era vets think that the moderen military is uncapable of deploying across the street.the same as world war 2 vets felt of veitnam era troops.what each group fails to realize is the world is constantly changing theres no need for a large military anymore.i hope everyone has taken a lesson from this never disagree with shartley's opinion.
www.mustangstuff.iwarp.com/images/arguing.jpg (http://www.mustangstuff.iwarp.com/images/arguing.jpg)
i think this pic sums it all up.i know it applies to me also but im directing it at you

[This message has been edited by seekandestroy (edited 08-25-2001).]

shartley

08-26-2001, 05:52 PM

Thank you for your post (and revamp of it).

well excuse me for not being mister grammer
That is real NCO material there. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

now your going to call me a liar oh well i guess theres nothing i can do about that is there?
I never called you that, I pointed out some interesting things, of which you STILL fail to address. But as YOU put it.... there is nothing I can do about that.

the reason behind my questions that you so eloquintly declined to answer was to make a point all reagan/cold war era vets think that the moderen military is uncapable of deploying across the street.the same as world war 2 vets felt of veitnam era troops
Actually this is not quite accurate, sorry.

And evidently you missed all the briefings after the Gulf War about Military Downsizing? I know they gave classes and briefings to ALL Military personnel as to the history of Military Downsizing from WWI to present times, and how EVERY time they did this, they downsized TOO much.

And this directly caused problems with EVERY major engagement thereafter. THEN they had to do a mad rebuild to bring at least Basic Troop Strengths up to the appropriate levels (let alone proper training). But then directly after the conflicts were over, they did the SAME thing all over again. But the funny part is (or not so funny), during the cycle before, it was always stated that it would NEVER happen again.

what each group fails to realize is the world is constantly changing theres no need for a large military anymore.
Those who fail to remember their History are doomed to repeat it. Your statement was said after every major conflict since WWI.

i hope everyone has taken a lesson from this never disagree with shartley's opinion.
Again you are wrong. Sorry. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but what I DO mind is people who just don't make sense, or provide any proof or logical arguments for their statements.

You have provided neither proof, nor logic, and that is not my fault. You have had ample time to rebut any and all of my comments...but you failed to do so. But it is easier to point to me and say I am the one who is wrong..... but provide no evidence to back it up.

i think this pic sums it all up.i know it applies to me also but im directing it at you
I am sure this picture was funny, but it does not pull up.

And it is one thing to use quip, sarcasm, and even pictures to prove a point... but I don't think a picture, no matter HOW good it is, will help your case. You have failed to prove even the simplest of your statements, and only increase my doubts.

But again, I could really care less who you are. Your words hold no weight and lack any logic or facts. I think everyone will see things for what they are.

Thank you.

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 08-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by shartley (edited 08-27-2001).]

Army

08-26-2001, 06:33 PM

Case in point, #1) 1950; No troop ships were available for 2 months after North Korea invaded the south. Why? they had all been mothballed or sold to merchants or scrapped after WWII.

#2) 1969, South Vietnam; air delivered bombs of all weights came into short supply for a brief time. Why? No new ones had been loaded since 1946.

#3) 1979, USA; All military FTXs were cancelled due to lack of fuel and spare parts.

#4) 1993-4-5 Bosnia-Herzegovina; Self transport and deployment of Apache helicopters reached 32% at best due to mass breakdowns. Why? Lack of training, spare parts, skilled pilots and no clear plan on deployment/usage.

#5) 1995-6-7 Somalia; 18 dead Rangers, 32 wounded Rangers. 4 dead Delta, 13 wounded Delta. 2 dead pilots, 1 captured pilot, 1 dead US soldier dragged through the streets by mobbing criminals. Why? Lack of military service and knowledge by the draft dodger Bill Clinton, who surrounded himself with like minded and untrained advisors.

Okay hero, convince me the world has changed. It is still a very dangerous place where GIs die fighting with less than minimum support. Prove me wrong, stud.

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http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/blackeye/linkcoolMIR.gif Got Elves?

hitmanng

08-27-2001, 03:15 AM

Ok back to the VV my uncle was a cook in Vietnam. All he got out of it was a nasty smoking habit. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif
Hitmanng
Sorry needed a little humor I thought.

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Issha zetsumei -- The original "one shot, one kill"

bofh

08-27-2001, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by shartley:
... And evidently you missed all the briefings after the Golf War about Military Downsizing? ...

Golf War? Did I miss something again? I'm sure I would have noticed if a bunch of angry plaid wearing golf pros started a revolt. Even more so, since they'd be in divisions of four.

But I guess this action could have been something that we did overseas, the kind of stuff that never gets on CNN. The kinda of undeclared war against the PRC, or the PGA, that you read about in books that have the disclaimer at the end about this never happened.

Well, I've had enough of these golfers, stomping over the rights of the other sports. And damn them for even thinking about plaid pants. I say we should push our troops all the way to St. Andrews and finish the job, like we should have during the war. And we wouldn't be subject to their threats and posturing anymore.

Together, we can stop this menace from taking over and corupting the purity of our natural bodily fluids...

Better Dead than Plaid!

(yes, it's all a joke http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif