The Cocker accuracy thing- whats the deal?

[ScatterPlot]

Everybody is always saying that cockers are soooo much more accurate than mags. Whats the deal with that? I mean I havent shot a cocker in like forever and I didnt really get a good go at it but my brother says that his friends is much more accurate. But as we all know accuracy only comes from a paint to barrel match and consistency. But my brother has seen this gun shoot and he thinks its more accurate. Whats the deal? Are cockers just uber-consistent or something, leading people to think they're more accurate? Why is the cocker so special? Theres been proven tests to show closed bolt vs open bolt and they have shown that theres no difference, so why are cockers magically more accurate? Maybe he happened upon some perfect match or something. Im actually going as far as to thinking about trading my second classic for an old Cocker or something. Please help me!!!
Oh yeah, if its about sizing, I have a Freak and should be able to get a good match, maybe Im just using crappy paint, maybe4 sizing it wrong. Whats the best way to size with a freak? Thanks
Bert

[DiRTyBuNNy]

"Ignorance is bliss"

[ScatterPlot]

you mean my brothers ignorance or are you saying that Im ignorant and that cockers are better?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

well, I'm not the right person to explain science to anyone but unless AC's can defy the laws of physics there is no way that they can actually be more accurate. People perceive them to be more accurate so there for they are, so they are ignorant to the fact that the AC is no more accurate than any other gun. It is in this ignorance that they feel that they are better than you.

[ScatterPlot]

OK thanks, for a sec there I thought you were one of those "AUTOCKOCKERS CAN SHOOT THROUGH HOLES IN A SPOOL FROM 6 MILES AWAY" type of people. Thanks though

[jinxed]

First-
All guns shoot the same.
Accuracy is a function of stable FPS, consistent paint, and a good bore match.

Otherwise, whats the difference between a Cocker, Spyder, and Timmy? They are all stacked-tube sheridans.

Why do people always compare the Mag vs Cocker?
10 years ago, they were the only guns used at tournaments.
The mag had a severe spike/shootdown problem, which made the mag very inaccurate.
However, people thought the Mag was normal, and the COcker was somehow magically "super" accurate... sigh.
(note: New mags no longer have those problems. They shoot great).

-Nick

[ScatterPlot]

Dont get me wrong now I agree with you guys, I was just sorta venting. Mags rule! :)

[Ov3rmind]

Cockers have the same accuracy as any other properly set up gun. The reason some people think they are more accurate are due to qualities that make them easier to aim with. Their very low kick and well balanced body make them much easier to keep on target during long streams of paint, but they don't really shoot any more accurately than any other gun.

[MaChu]

You guys are on crack they shoot farther and are more accurate duh! If pro players and field owners say they are, then it must be very true.




(sarcasm)

[Lohman446]

I love mags, and won't switch - but I was trying to see what fact might fuel this ugly ugly rumor. Grab hold of your mag barrel near the tip and wiggle it, the barrel wiggles - this fact is nullified with the ULE barrels but does anyone think that this may be an issue?

I feel like I just poked my head up from the front bunker and realized my whole team was gone - now Im going to get it

[magking1971]

Every single answer was wrong,
IT IS THE ELVES!!!
jeeze guys get your facts right ;)

[rx2]

Do a little trig, and you will find that the wiggle won't affect the grouping appreciably within standard ranges.

Anyhow, there have been too many posts already, and it would be trite to rehash what everyone else has already said.

But, I believe the net has been that velocity, spin, angle of departure, and possible deformation are the only differences betwixt markers that could account for flight characteristics, range, and accuracy. I do believe, though, that the ball deformation has been negated as a factor, on the dyno, with a good paint to ID match.

[GoatBoy]

Physically speaking, they're probably isn't much difference between the two. Slap them on a bench, have a machine fire them, they'll probably do no better than one another.

But, I do still own both a mag and a cocker, and there IS a difference between the two.

As far as I'm concerned, it's mostly the difference between the triggers. The smoothness of a trigger, speed you pull it at, force required to pull the trigger, and the way the user himself pulls it can all have an affect on user accuracy, especially at high rates of fire. This is a personal preference thing... And perhaps one of the biggest advantages of the electronic triggers.

And honestly, comparing stock mag to stock cocker, I prefer the pull of a sliding cocker trigger to the short but pretty stiff pull of a mag. It's kind of like the difference between shooting a glock and shooting one of those 1911 style .45's with a sliding trigger.



rx2: while I do agree with your conclusion, I have to ask... have you ever actually done the math yourself?

[Lohman446]

How about someone with memory of trig do this math. Say the barrel can wiggle one degree in any direction - out 150 feet? (that a fair enough long range shot) how much does that make of a difference?

BTW - this point has an end, the ULE body and cocker threads - but I am curious.

[rx2]

I have done the math, but that was a while ago. I don't have the equation handy for calculating the value, or I would whip through it again (I haven't used that equation since 98). I should also state, though, that I was basing the values in the equation on my setup, with very tight o-rings. It might be a little different with loose o-rings, so I must say that I don't preclude barrel wobble. However, it can be diminished with a tighter setup.

Anyhow, let me see if I still have my OLD notes somewhere. If I can find it, I will post my results.

If not, I do believe that there was a post with similar mathematics, somewhere on this board, by our old friend Butterfingers.

[Lohman446]

I found the equation - ok, a computer site that would do it for me. If the barrel wiggle is .1 degree your accuracy at 150 feet (1800 inches) would be varied by 3.14 inches. So my next question - does anyone have a good way to measure this barrel wiggle, is it something that exists, is 150 feet to long of range. Curious on this issue, and that ULE body in my closet is looking better and better

I deleted the link, seems how it was not functional

[rx2]

Had to delete my last post. It seems that my barrel pin isn't in, and I am not sure where it is, so my measurement of .5 mm of travel inaccurate, as the barrel is somewhat looser without this pin.

Also, I don't think I am being fair as I put more force on the barrel than what is put on it during normal firing in a game.

[rx2]

SO, with the pin in, the "wiggle," induced by hand, is roughly one quarter of a millimeter, or .038 degrees. Since that link is incorrect, I tried to calculate it myself from what remnants of trig I have left in my brain. The result I obtained was 19 millimeters at 30 meters, which I believe to be an average distance, based upon my experience.

So, if I fire at 30 meters, I should expect there to be about 19 millimeters of difference between a ball fired with the barrel at one extreme and at the other, or about 3/4 inch. Consider, though, that this is only 9.5 millimeters off from the mean.
Not bad, but still not perfect.

Again, though, I can't say that wiggling the barrel by hand will reproduce the same results that firing alone would.

Now, I remember, way back when, my old Cocker and VM-68 barrels wiggled slightly, also. They were indeed more solid, but still not perfect. I wonder what the average wiggle on one of those is.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by rx2
SO, with the pin in, the "wiggle," induced by hand, is roughly one quarter of a millimeter, or .038 degrees.

This is what I wanted to hear and I thank you for that measurement. Please remember that I started this as a hypothetical question without having exact measurements. .038 degrees is going to bring the accuracy variable off at 150 feet about an inch - this is at the extreme "wiggle" of the barrel - by hand which you likely will not get under firing conditions as you pointed out - considering 150 as the extreme range - frankly the inch is meaningless and I will gladly concede that point. Thanks for the measurement info. :)

[rx2]

No problem. It took me a while to figure out what I was doing, though. I have been a bit of a scatter-brain as of late (really badly so).

I measured by clamping my marker into a vise and a measuring device under the tip of the barrel (about 14 inches). I then moved the tip back and forth as much as possible with my hand, adjusting the calipers so that they just contacted the outer wall of the muzzle. I then compared this to the normal measurement of the muzzle, and calculated the difference.

I then used the equation of TAN(theta) = Opposite/adjacent, where theta = .038 degrees, and adjacent = 30000 mm.

I think that if you are zealously pressing your barrel into a bunker, and things of that nature, the wiggle might have more of an effect than I might have though, at full range. However, I think that under normal circumstances wiggle should be even less. After all, the only things affecting the barrel are its own mass, the paint travelling through it, and the bolt. Of course, we could all be wrong, and there may be something magical in the cocker-threads.

I still wouldn't mind the switch to cocker threads, myself.

[rehme]

cockers have more moving parts so they need more elves :D

[spydervenom]

http://www.geocities.com/spydrvnm/hype.txt




i made that because some kid was so sure that the cocker he just bought was better than every other gun around because its closed bolt so its more accurate.

[Albinonewt]

My buddy is convinced, absolutly convinced, that his cocker is the most accurate thing in the world (ever lasers don't shoot straighter!). However, a funny thing happened to him.

It was him (with a black magic cocker), me (e-mag), and a buddy (A-5) hanging out with a guy that wanted to buy his first paintball gun. The cocker guy made him try his cocker, assuming he would love it. He tried it out and thought it was pretty cool, and liked it. He asked to see my gun, and I asked him how much he wanted to spend. Then he asked to see the A-5. He preferred the A-5's accuracy and range over the cocker!

My buddy nearly cried himself to sleep that night. The rest of us had a good chuckle at his expense.

I remain firmly commited to my policy of loud volumes of paint over the pat pat pat of single shot accuracy!