American Airlines has my tank

[Miscue]

I went to AOAustin with my tank, no problem. But going back home was another story.

I told the turd boy manager what I had, and he said I could not bring it. "You can't bring CO2 cartridges." I told him it wasn't a CO2 cartridge, but an empty compressed air tank. He goes off telling me how it's against the law, how he taught a class and thus 'he should know' and other BS.
I explained to him that I could demonstrate the tank being empty. He said it doesn't have gauges so he can't tell. I showed him the gauges displaying 0 psi. I turned the valve on and off, explaining how it would be venting air if there was any in it.

There's been some confusion, so I'm not sure if my tank has been confiscated or not - I have different information. Gonna have to do some paper work and make phone calls to fix this.

Makes me mad... there's more pressure in this guy's colon than there was in my tank. Grr!

[Animal Mother]

Oh what a bunch of crap!!!!!

I hate theses ignorant lamers.. if you don't get your tank back I say file a report with the police. That is theft if you do not get it back.

What did the dip say when you showed him the 0psi gauge? I really hate stupid people.. what's even worse is ignorant stupid people that are put in charge of stuff like this. Theses are the same people that let 5 Afgans that happened to all be carrying box cutters for some reason onto a plane... heh heh..

Sorry to hear that man... good luck.

[manike]

What I really hate is when they say you can't have compressed air because the change in pressure will cause it to explode at altitude... and that the tank valve must be open.

When you explain the tank is designed to hold 4500psi and be tested in excess of that... and that the pressure difference is around 28psi (IIRC) between sea level and cruising altitude and that you don't think the tank will have much of an issue going from 0 - 28psi for the flight... they don't seem to find the funny side :rolleyes: :D

Ignorant idiots. I don't usually have trouble but it's always a pain having to explain it. I just never loctite my regs on so I can show them the empty tank.

[MarkM]

I'm with Manike on this I have had problems with airline staff trying to "act big" but never had the bottle refused to be flown, come close and even had an airline try to say it can't go in the hold even though I flew out with the same airline ??? but normally a little bit of sticking to my guns and insisting for a security officer to actually come to see me as opposed to a phone call from the check-in works. They (airlines) do seem more concerned with the tanks rather than the markers (yes I always use that term !). American Airlines I have flown with on at least 2 seperate occasions, once with no grief and once with a little, I always allow just a little more time for check-in than they reccomend as getting moved from the line to explain takes that little bit longer. As Manike has said always ensure you can remove your reg so they can look inside the tank (well as best as you can see through that small hole :rolleyes: ) I have flown with a regular on/off tap I couldn't remove but proved the valve was open and all was fine, and even removed burst disks to satisfy their fears. I hope you get it all sorted out, for the future you can "help" things along by getting a addition put on your ticket stating that you will be carrying compressed air cylinders and then it is on your notes at check-in and you "should" have pre-approval they do have a term they use but the title escapes me for the moment, but it does speed things up.

[raehl]

Point to DOT number on tank.

Make them look it up.

Or better yet, carry the information with you.


But they do need to be empty, and not because they might explode - the real problem is that if there's a fire, they don't want that much oxygen in one place.


- Chris

[MarkM]

Originally posted by raehl
Point to DOT number on tank.

Make them look it up.

Or better yet, carry the information with you.


But they do need to be empty, and not because they might explode - the real problem is that if there's a fire, they don't want that much oxygen in one place.


- Chris

Oh yeah how to make friends and influence people :rolleyes: Chris, ANY attitude like that at check-in and you and your bottle WON'T fly. Have the info ready sure but to try and tell the fool at check-in they are a fool will not get you moving other than to another airline....get their Super to come and see you and/or airport security. Perhaps your post is like a lot of others elsewhere ;) ...IE didn't come out the way you meant it. But chill man, Manike and I have flown and gone through a lot more crap than you currently have. American internal flights are a joke from a security point of view, transatlantic flights are way hotter on the what can and won't go. I have taken internal flights from two different airports on the same trip and what sets off the scanners at one airport doesn't at the other, absolutely no consistency.

[Kevmaster]

yeh, i don't think he ment to put in the inferred "be a butt" the way it came out...

but yeh, carry some documenation for the tank and osha/dot rules

[MarkM]

Kevmaster, Chris has a habit of doing that in a lot of his posts, not here but elsewhere hence the "dig" but also a lot of the time he DOES mean it the way he says it (by his own admission) :eek:

[raehl]

Yeah, THIS time I glossed over the "and be smooth about it" part, although I've also flown plenty of times with tanks and never had any trouble. I always just right out say to the gate agent "There is sporting equipment in this bag, including empty compressed air tanks."

But yeah, since the pile of to-do stuff is always high, sometimes the posts get written with the short version.


- Chris

[MarkM]

Originally posted by raehl
Yeah, THIS time I glossed over the "and be smooth about it" part, although I've also flown plenty of times with tanks and never had any trouble. I always just right out say to the gate agent "There is sporting equipment in this bag, including empty compressed air tanks."

But yeah, since the pile of to-do stuff is always high, sometimes the posts get written with the short version.


- Chris

Fair enough Chris ;) thought you would have realised by now NOT to "gloss over" things as look at the trouble you have gotten into before :D
Hostilitys are still suspended for the moment, as you have been told. So tread carefully when all the Toulouse disection stuff gets posted ;) (note to any reading this Chris knows where and what I am talking about)

[Muzikman]

With my traveling over seas (not with paintball gear) I have found that across pond trips are actually lacking security. Hell, it was harder to get into Canada last thursday and than any time I have been to the UK, Germany, or Spain.

Anyway, this is the reason I have large plastic lockable containers that I ship my gear to ther destination when I fly.

[SyntaxError]

American Airlines totally sucks!! This seems to be a common complaint now with this airline, although I can understand how they're concerned for their passengers' safety.

I believe Skinny K had a similar situation with American West:D

[RoadDawg]

I had that problem with Delta about a year ago. They tried to take my 48/3k even though I've flown 4 times previously with it w/o hassle. I even had the tank screwed into a ASA (no macroline) and the guy says nope it'll blow up. He then called and checked the DOT # and said sorry sir for the inconvienence. They were about to fine me and take my tanks for breaking federal laws. He said since it has a pin valve and has a guage displaying 0 (plus he pressed down the pin to make sure) he said it was ok. I've even drawn it out for people to make sure they understood how it works. I even pointed out the burst disk saying that it is a safety of sorts that when it over pressurizes it will pop and leak out. I don't hold it against them though. I mean they are doing there job and making sure everyone is safe. Not always safe and happy but safe.

[BlackVCG]

I think it helps to tell them it's just a small SCUBA tank. They fly SCUBA tanks more often than paintball tanks, so the correlation is better once you say that.

I've also found it better to not mention anything at all. Just put zip ties on your check-in baggage and let it go through.

[Kevmaster]

two things:

most airlines prohibit "paintball co2 tanks"...and most workers don't know the difference between co2 and N2...so calling it a SCUBA tank is a good idea

not mentioning it, is a bad idea. if they find it, which they're allowed to now, most all baggage gets searched now post9-11, they can ***** at you for not declaring it

[magman007]

You guys really have that much of a problem with your tanks? I cant believe it. I flew from south america (chile) To miami And had no problem. In Santiago when i was leaving i just mentioned i had a small air tank and it was open(pinvalve) I pulled the tank out, and depressed the pin valve for the lady to see, and then replaced the ASA i had on there, so that the valve would stay open and keep them all happy.


I cant believe you guys have all this trouble flying with your tanks.

HEll, i had more of an issue comming into customs and the wierd customs officer (at 5 am im sure they are all wierd) asking me
[him]"what were you doing in South america"
(me)"studdying sir"
[him]"likely story, please step asside"

any ways yea thats how it went, then at TSA security they asked alot of questions about the SFL..... made me prove the pack wasnt a block of c4 etc.... it was annoying!

[Pvt.Opium]

I flew with my tanks on Delta once. THey gave me no problem as long as I was able to show them that 1. there was no pressure in the tank and 2 that the tank was open.

Those People are Dumb. I quess that rejecting Compressed Air Bottles from customers is there way of Feeling Important :)

[Miscue]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
I think it helps to tell them it's just a small SCUBA tank. They fly SCUBA tanks more often than paintball tanks, so the correlation is better once you say that.

I've also found it better to not mention anything at all. Just put zip ties on your check-in baggage and let it go through.

I told him it was like a scuba, but he said scuba tanks could not be taken.

I was thinking about not mentioning it... but I figure that, if some idiot makes a fuss about it... they might take my luggage or something... or worse.

[Muzikman]

A guy I would withh goes on two or three dive trips every year where he has to fly. He said he never travels with his tanks and just rents them when he gets there. He's been doing this for many years and he said it's not worth the hassle to try and take them. So it doesn't look like it's just paintball that gets picked on.

[RobAGD]

I have had these same issues, and I know people that have not been as luck as I have.

Team Lockout made a trip, empty tanks and all and found that when they arrived at the event thier gear bags had ben CUT open and all the tanks taken off guns and a note "Items seized". They did not call them, or ask them any questions NOTHING. They show up at an event to play and had to have tanks fedex to them same day.


The real problem here is the IGNORANCE of the people that should know the rules better. My tank without reg is no differnt that my 54oz drink cup that I pack. Yet I find myself having to explain this way too much. TSA TOOK a tank out of a teammates bag, now he is getting the run around on getting it returned or replaced. The airline says ask TSA, call TSA and you get a recording. he problem comes down to who is responsable for equipment that is removed. In my book it would be considered a loss do to theft and should fall ack on the airline. BTW the tank was empty, no burst disks etc.

The whole airline thing just makes my arse ache.

-Robert

PS and dont get me started on Canada

[nippinout]

Uh, why were the bags cut open? I think even buffoons know how to operate zippers lol.

It's amazing how a tank without regulator causes so much concern. Just like you said Rob, no difference from the drink cup. LOL

[rdb123]

Originally posted by Animal Mother
...what's even worse is ignorant stupid people that are put in charge of stuff like this. Theses are the same people that let 5 Afgans that happened to all be carrying box cutters for some reason onto a plane... heh heh...

Actually they were hidden in the seat cushions. They found box cutters in other planes hidden there too.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I hate people that think that they know everything. That guy at american airlines probably didn't even know what psi stands for .:rolleyes:

[Muzikman]

Umm...up until after 9-11, there was no rule against knives and box cutters being on planes. I ha flown many times with my swiss army knife in my carry on (and for those who have seen it...it's a beast). The only rule they had was that it could not be a lock-back and it could not be more than a 3" blade. So...those guys that got on a plane with box cutters were doing nothing against airline rules until they used then to hi-jack the plane.

With that being said. Airport security is getting out of hand and I personally think it is all for the public to feel safe. With all the flying I do (over 280,000 flyer miles) I see so many holes in the system that I think no matter how anal and rude that airport security will be it will never be safer. And yes, putting paintball asside, the TSA guys can be rude as hell...even to the person just trying to get back home from a long business trip and to the poor old lady that MUST be carrying that AK-47 under her dress.

Any way, for as cheap as it is. Ship the tank to the place of destination, even if you don't ship the rest of the gear. (Though, it did cost me more to fedex my gear to Shatner ball than it did for my plane ticket:))

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by RobAGD
The airline says ask TSA, call TSA and you get a recording. [T]he problem comes down to who is responsable for equipment that is removed. In my book it would be considered a loss do to theft and should fall ack on the airline.If it was taken out of your luggage post-checkin, it is TSA. They are responsible for all luggage security checks after the bags have been checked through the terminals. The airlines have no control over this process and cannot determine what happened to your tanks or any other stuff confiscated.

Currently, the gate agents are told, "if in doubt, do no allow it." In this day and age, I will always ship my tanks ahead of me; it is not worth the hassle.

[Miscue]

Well, I just got a phone call from AA. They told me a specialist took a look at it (who was unavailable yesterday), and he said it was fine. The lady said it was obviously empty, and was a professional tank... not a CO2 cylinder like that turd burglar had reported even after I explained it. She apologized and said I should have been able to take it. I asked to have them ship it, and they said they can't. Havoc is gonna end up having to pick it up for me... which totally blows. And, he has to do it like right now otherwise they will throw it away. Gonna work on a letter to try to get some compensation for his gas and stuff.



:mad:

[Muzikman]

You mean they will not put it on the next plane to LV??? That's odd...

BTW, where is it? Houston Airport? If so, let me know and I can get one of our guys at the people mover to pick it up and ship it to me here at work and then I can just give it to you at IAO....

but then again, you would have to go through the same problem in Pittsburgh:)

[Miscue]

Originally posted by raehl
Point to DOT number on tank.

Make them look it up.

Or better yet, carry the information with you.


But they do need to be empty, and not because they might explode - the real problem is that if there's a fire, they don't want that much oxygen in one place.


- Chris

I told them that the DOT info should show that the tank is safe for transport. They said this applies to cargo planes, and not passenger planes... the rules being different. I dunno how this all works...

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Muzikman
You mean they will not put it on the next plane to LV??? That's odd...

They will not ship it, they will not put it on the next plane... and it looks as though they will provide no compensation for having to pick it up and ship it. I just hate having to waste Curtis's time to get this for me.

As I understand it, they were not supposed to hold on to it to begin with unless they confiscated it. However, they made an 'exception' and will release it. I'm thinking that they can't ship it because their policies don't cover this since they should not ever be in a position where they have to do this, if they follow procedures correctly.

[GT]

It would be nice if some folks posted the DOT regs, via a link, for use. Easy for us to take on a trip w/ us.

[Muzikman]

I would have told them to treat it as lost luggage.

[nippinout]

Nice of Havoc to help out.

Yahoo for Havoc!

[Curly]

Last year I flew to florida with my gear. I flew on united and called ahead to check on flying with tanks. They told me everything would be ok and it was. I just told them that I had a compressed air cylander that was empty. But I know people who have had a lot of trouble flying with tanks. I even know someone who never got theirs back after it being confiscated at an airport.

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by Miscue
Well, I just got a phone call from AA. They told me a specialist took a look at it (who was unavailable yesterday), and he said it was fine. The lady said it was obviously empty, and was a professional tank... not a CO2 cylinder like that turd burglar had reported even after I explained it. She apologized and said I should have been able to take it. I asked to have them ship it, and they said they can't. Havoc is gonna end up having to pick it up for me... which totally blows. And, he has to do it like right now otherwise they will throw it away. Gonna work on a letter to try to get some compensation for his gas and stuff.



:mad:

:( I left at the time you called(when everyone's getting outta work) it took a bit over 2 hours(to and back). I had been planning on chewing AA out over what happened, but by the time I got there, I just wanted to leave, lol.

I'm just sorry you had to go through that, but I'm glad you made it out here! I'll see you @ IAO and hand it to you then.

[MattG]

I just think that airports are taking it out of hand. I mean no terroist attack is going to be using planes agian. Now if a middle easten stands up to take a piss without his hands up he is getting tackled. So maybe they should lighten up. But i think the best is just to call ahead ask who u are speaking to and show up early.

[Miscue]

Thanks Curtis, I really appreciate it. Sorry you had to go through the trouble.


Originally posted by Havoc_online


:( I left at the time you called(when everyone's getting outta work) it took a bit over 2 hours(to and back). I had been planning on chewing AA out over what happened, but by the time I got there, I just wanted to leave, lol.

I'm just sorry you had to go through that, but I'm glad you made it out here! I'll see you @ IAO and hand it to you then.

[Recon by Fire]

Don't you just love flying the friendly skies!

[Animal Mother]

Originally posted by rdb123


Actually they were hidden in the seat cushions. They found box cutters in other planes hidden there too.

I never heard that. If they were able to hide them on planes then why Box cutters? Why not guns or real knives? before 9/11 it was legal to carry on a blade that was under 3 inches. if a group of afgans board a plane and all have box cutters... I think I would have asked a few more questions, lol. I mean.. it sucks to racialy profile someone.. but a group all of the same race who just happen to have box cutters which WERE legal to carry on a plane... no.. I would have stopped them.

It's like the movie Airplane.. Afgans with box cutters get past security, Miscue with an empty tank gets yanked to the side and strip searched, LOL

[nippinout]

I e-mailed the DOT in regards to air travel with paintball compressed air tanks.

They directed me to a link where I found this:
http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/permitted_prohibited_6-2003.pdf

In the last page, it says that compressed gas cylinders are banned for both carry-on and checked. Ruh roh. (Thanks to Thordic for correcting my previous error)

They also directed me to the TSA, which is a part of the DOT, and also to HAZMAT.

I e-mailed HAZMAT to see what they had to say.

I'll have to e-mail the TSA about any possibility with travelling with cylinders themselves without a regulator.

[GT]

Nip,
I think you may have interpted the chart incorrectly.

The title of that portion of the chart says "Disabling Chemicals and other Dangerous gases" Last time I checked the DOT/HAZMAT tables it didnt say anything about compressed air being dangerous or disabling chemical gas. I believe there concern is with chemical gasses; posions, flamable, etc..

See the table labeled "Guns and Firearms"
It says I can bring compressed air guns they just need to be checked.

I will be taking a DOT course in sept., and if I leanr anything in regards to pb I will post it.

Also if you are looking for dangerous goods shipping in regards to Air transport search the net for a group called IATA.

Getting warmer!

jb (safety/environmental guy)

[nippinout]

gtrsi, I'm trying to figure out this whole mess lol.

It just says compressed gas cylinders and nothing specific. The link they provide does not work either. Fire extinguishers are also included, which some use CO2.

Besides that, I haven't gotten much clarification yet. Our concern isn't with the other equipment, just the tanks.

If the airlines see this list and see "compressed gas cylinders not safe for checked or carry-on" they are going to stop interpretation right then and there.

What I would like is the airlines putting a stop to being inept. Security is paramount, but some people are down right ignorant.

Let's hope we can get some constructive feedback.

[1stdeadeye]

I think the moron at AA had designs for your tank! He was going to mill your tank and then send it on. He obviously chickened out and had AA call you to return it!;)

[edweird]

I think most of all we need a industry letter clearly explaining how to render the tank empty and safley ship it. IE taping down on-off's or screwing in an ASA for the duration of the flight.

Then we need to submit it to the FAA and OSHA for independant approval. Doing this will add a step to the checklist thus forcing them to ask if its CO2 or HPA. Then if HPA if it matches the criteria for full open / inert container travel

[FalconGuy016]

There needs to be a new, clear, specific regulation for our air tanks made by DOT to save everyone the hassle and confusion. Paintball is growing large and there are many people who need to fly with their tanks.

[GT]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
There needs to be a new, clear, specific regulation for our air tanks made by DOT to save everyone the hassle and confusion. Paintball is growing large and there are many people who need to fly with their tanks.

There is! come on guys keep looking, I know you can find it. I will post tomorrow to make sure I have the correct reg.


jb

[cphilip]

Well your wrong to look to DOT. They defer to IATA now. On air transport. DOT and IATA regs are what I do at Clemson.

Miscue presented a legal tank under IATA and US DOT. It shoulda been allowed. But ignorance abounds...

This kid who checked his bags saying that he just took a course is his problem. It takes years to understand these Regulations. And they constantly change. Again proving a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

And the commment about Over-Seas being lax? Nonsense. IATA is "International" stadardization of Haz Mat shipping by Air. "International Air Transportation" is what the first three letters stand for. All proposed and phased in after the Value Jet incident in the Everglades.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
They defer to IATA now. On air transport. DOT and IATA regs are what I do at Clemson.


Come on, give us the regs. ;) You must have access to them. Aren't they on the internet somewhere?

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well your wrong to look to DOT. They defer to IATA now. On air transport. DOT and IATA regs are what I do at Clemson.

Miscue presented a legal tank under IATA and US DOT. It shoulda been allowed. But ignorance abounds...

This kid who checked his bags saying that he just took a course is his problem. It takes years to understand these Regulations. And they constantly change. Again proving a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

And the commment about Over-Seas being lax? Nonsense. IATA is "International" stadardization of Haz Mat shipping by Air. "International Air Transportation" is what the first three letters stand for. All proposed and phased in after the Value Jet incident in the Everglades.


Cphilip,
I dont understand the need for you to put on the big man pants? Must you really feel like a BIG MAN on the 'net? Your responce is extremely childish! I think you are the ignorant to say that it takes years of experince to determine the correct reg and apply in a real world sistuation. I certianly agree in some casses however in this sistuation I disagree completely.

IATA considers compressed gas cyclinders a "dangerous good." Does that really matter for us paintballers? Not really.

Feel free to hit the code of federal regulations and search for 49CFR172.101 (Hazardous Materials Table) (BTW if you are on dial up it may take a min or two to come up)

You are looking for "compressed gas, N.O.S." according to DOT the tanks need to be less than 76Kg(for passenger air craft/rail). I hope all of your tanks are less than 75Kg. Its shipping group 2.2 and a un number 1956. If you really wanted to be PC DOT you could add a larger sticker on the side of your tanks that says "EMPTY."

Remeber kids empty your tanks of any and all gases prior to flight:D Little side note most of the SCUBA guys just weigh there tanks pay, a few if it is over the airlines weight limit for the domestic/international flight, load thier gear, and take off.

jb

Edit: I can't spell. Here is the CFR link http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-retrieve.html#page1 insert ths citation I gave you above and the DOT hazmat table will come up

[raehl]

I did find some regs the other day (don't have the links handy) but you woud definitely not want to show them to any airline personnel as they're close to being written in Greek.

Remember that scuba tanks are compressed air tanks though...

- Chris

[raehl]

1) Don't put a sticker on the tank.


2) This doesn't do anything to solve the problem of telling airline personnel your tanks are safe and getting them to believe you. While it doesn't take years to learn this particular regulation, i'm sure cphillip is right baout it taking years to have a good working knowlege of all of them.


- Chris

[Recon by Fire]

You are always going to be at the mercy of whatever booger eating moron they have working that day. Last December I flew to Washington with my gear. They asked about the Max-Flow and after I told them it was empty and the valve open, they never gave it a second thought. It is sad when I have had an easier time flying with a pistol and ammunition than others have with paintball gear!

[cphilip]

gtrsi...

Calm you self boy. DOT Hazmat tables are NOT for air nor do they tell you anything about shipping of those. They give you the classification only which is one tiny step in chosing the proper labeling and placarding of those. Land Sea and Rail only now. IATA phazed in a few years back for air. The Regs are similar but subtle differences in labeling and packaging references. And not taken from the DOT haz mat tables at all. Some similarities but it takes a while to notice all the differences and its international now.

And believe me it takes a LONG time to fully understand them and how they all interrelate to each other.

IATA has a web site. If you look to the shipping regs and NOT the classification tables, you will find IATA repeatedly deferred to by DOT. And a completely different set of packaging and volumes allowed from what DOT allows. And a different set of packaging specifcations and even still some subtle differences in terminology. For instance the use of the term Excepted Quantities and Exempt Quantities. Things like that.

I am sorry if 25 years working with these comes across as if I know more about them. I am sure there are some people out there that do know more than I about them. But I doubt that includes you. Seriously I do. Maybe its cause I certainly should know a lot about them. I not going to applogize for that. Comes with the territory.

I could give em all to you but they are pretty big. Just go look for IATA and you will find thier web site. Darn people make you buy a complete set of regs every year to keep up. And you are required to train on them every year too. Both DOT and IATA as well as RCRA regs seem to be an endless sea of new changes every year. This year it was the inclusion of the new Federal Security and Bioterrism stuff.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by raehl
1) Don't put a sticker on the tank.


2) This doesn't do anything to solve the problem of telling airline personnel your tanks are safe and getting them to believe you. While it doesn't take years to learn this particular regulation, i'm sure cphillip is right baout it taking years to have a good working knowlege of all of them.


- Chris

To point one that is correct. NEVER label something its not except negative labeling can be good. I use stickers that say "Empty" on my stuff all the time. And inital and date that. Just to show someone has examined it and made a determination. But then again I get inspected so I am always wanting to remove all doubt.

yea but the point I was trying to make is that you guys already know the part that concerns you the most. Compressed air tanks. And indeed many of the guys they have hired know less than you. This kid Miscue ran into had enough knowledge to be wrong most of time. Its unfortunate cause Miscue (and most of you) were right.

A compressed cylinder is not compressed if its empty and can be verified as such. And his was.

And by ground a compressed non hazardous, non asphyxiant Gas can be shipped as empty if it has 30 psi or less in it.

But almost any tank no matter what the chemical in it can be shipped by ground with the correct labeling and manifesting. Its all a matter of the shippers knowing what he has and shipping it in the proper method and packaging.

But calling something empty gets a little dicey. For instance DOT says no more than on inch of matterial is left in a Drum its empty. But IATA does not allow that. And RCRA says all removable material and in the case of Highly Toxics it must be tripple rinsed to be empty. You would be suprised how many ways there are to descibe empty!

So all this varies somewhat between land and air now. Same stuff just different rules for what can and cannot be done. And how its manifested, packed and labeled. And wether or not it is restricted to Air cargo only vs Passenger Cargo combination flights and such as that... when it comes to Air shipment. And that is all in IATA. And sure they have a web site! :)

One of the MOST important points is an Airline may restrict further than IATA allows. It's thier right to do so.

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
gtrsi...

I am sorry if 25 years working with these comes across as if I know more about them. I am sure there are some people out there that do know more than I about them. But I doubt that includes you. Seriously I do. Maybe its cause I certainly should know a lot about them. I not going to applogize for that. Comes with the territory.


And that is certianly fine but the tone of your post is what set me off.


DOT Hazmat tables are NOT for air nor do they tell you anything about shipping of those. They give you the classification only which is one tiny step in chosing the proper labeling and placarding of those. Land Sea and Rail only now.

I dont understand, under DOT its classifed as a shipping group 2.2 and as long as your are shipping less than 75kg and empty your golden. I am lost as to why a person would need any additional.


IATA phazed in a few years back for air. The Regs are similar but subtle differences in labeling and packaging references. And not taken from the DOT haz mat tables at all. Some similarities but it takes a while to notice all the differences and its international now.

I will be completly honest I do not have my IATA book sitting infront of me, so to atest to the differences in regs concering "empty" cyclinders would be an error on my part.



Both DOT and IATA as well as RCRA regs seem to be an endless sea of new changes every year. This year it was the inclusion of the new Federal Security and Bioterrism stuff.

Very true,
Our select agent security plan has been completed for sometime and it seems the DOT security plan is going to fall on my sholders as well as the DOT traing that is comming around the corner.


1) Don't put a sticker on the tank.

2) This doesn't do anything to solve the problem of telling airline personnel your tanks are safe and getting them to believe you. While it doesn't take years to learn this particular regulation, i'm sure cphillip is right baout it taking years to have a good working knowlege of all of them.


1. In all honesty the sticker thing was just a side comment. You really wouldnt want a sticker on your PB tank since the guy working the fill station always gets nervous, however most compressed gas cycliders have a sticker on them some where to note what gas is located insde.

2. I agree 100 percent. We can beat this to death but in the end we are stuck with this.....



You are always going to be at the mercy of whatever booger eating moron they have working that day

[cphilip]

Gt, go back and read my post again with these thoughts in mind.

I think your reading some of my comments that were mostly against the guy who refused Miscues tank as directed against you or someone. In fact I mostly agreed with some of your stuff. But I was not responding to anyone in particular realy. I think you took it out of context of what I meant. I was reffering to THAT airport guy as having enough knowledge to be dangerous. And some of the others that were trying to take it all from DOT only. Thats all. I did not intend to sound like a snob or anything. Sorry if it came off that way.

You want a hard copy of the IATA without buying one? I can send you last years copy if you like? I not got any use for it if it would be of interest to you. There are not many changes realy in the whole of it. Pretty intersting and I think very well written stuff. I be glad to mail you this one if you want.

This whole Bioterrorism Act is just flat out screwball. I do not think they relized what they did with this one.

[rpm07]

I found this on Warpig.

ATA says no to HPA
By Bill Mills - June 10, 2003






Indiana based airline, ATA has recently become more thorough about enforcing its baggage policies, which do not allow compressed air tanks – empty or filled – to be transported on their airplanes.

Their polices are publicly available on their web site at: http://www.ata.com/pdfs_docs/atacoc.pdf. Section 190C of the policy specifically prohibits the transport of compressed air systems. Under the heading of paintball, the policy says to see the Restricted Articles heading, which includes:


“ATA does not accept compressed air systems, including oxygen generators, oxygen bottles and scuba tanks under any conditions.”

This issue was brought to the attention of the paintball playing public earlier this spring in a short paragraph long announcement in Action Pursuit Games Magazine’s monthly e-zine e-mail based newsletter. The ban similarly extends to CO2 tanks. Some confusion has arisen amongst paintballers because of an e-mail, which ATA has sent to its customers and the paintball media, referring to CO2 tanks for paintball. While it is not as clearly stated in the letter, a telephone interview with customer relations representative Shannon Manley confirmed that the airline is enforcing the written policy dealing with both CO2 and compressed air systems.

ATA’s main hub is the Chicago-Midway airport, and it has more flights in and out of Midway than any other airline. ATA has been providing passenger service since 1986. Due in large part to ATA’s low fares, and the location of the Midway airport, the airline seemed like the logical choice for a number of teams attending the 2003 NPPL Chicago tournament, or planning to attend Renick Miller’s Chicago Open 2003 PSP/NXL tournament.

When it came to ATA’s attention that passengers departing from Chicago had compressed air tanks in their checked luggage, the passengers were informed they would not be allowed to transport them. After many discussions, consultation with ATA managers, and even heated arguments, ATA stood firm on enforcing its policies, citing that they are based on the airline’s federal certification.

Most players opted to ship their tanks home, rather than leave them behind. As a sign of goodwill to their customers who were caught unaware by the policy, the airline is reimbursing the shipping costs. Officials from ATA have also stated that the airline offered to re-book flights free of charge for players who missed their scheduled flight due to delays caused by shipping their equipment.

ATA customers who had to ship their compressed air tanks home from Chicago are encouraged to contact ATA with return address and contact information to request a reimbursement at:

ATA Customer Relations
7337 West Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46231
1-877-617-1139

Players planning to travel by air are advised to check with their airline in advance to make sure all of their equipment can be transported. Due to changes in Transportation Safety Administration policy this year, all checked luggage as well as carry on is inspected by X-Ray, and possible hand search.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by cphilip
One of the MOST important points is an Airline may restrict further than IATA allows. It's thier right to do so.

And there you go! There is one so you have to ask who is friendly or not. And even then they can change em on you at the drop of a hat. All within their rights to do so.

[raehl]

You'd be entitled to some sort of compensation if they denied you bording due to refusal to carry a reasonable item in the event of a sudden change in policy I'd imagine, even if limited to ATAs free shipping offer.

- Chris

[raehl]

Is the rules are written to define what is *NOT* allowed. The rules are not written to define what *IS* allowed, so you likely won't find a rule which says "empty compressed air tanks are ok".

- Chris

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gtrsi
Very true,
Our select agent security plan has been completed for sometime and it seems the DOT security plan is going to fall on my sholders as well as the DOT traing that is comming around the corner.

We just finished both of those. The Security plan is not as bad as it looks at first glance.



1. In all honesty the sticker thing was just a side comment. You really wouldnt want a sticker on your PB tank since the guy working the fill station always gets nervous, however most compressed gas cycliders have a sticker on them some where to note what gas is located inside.

I am a great believer in even negative labeling. Not required by any rule if something is empty but I have seen NOT labeling backfire on people when someone asked them to prove it was empty. In the absence of any other labeling almost anything can be implied. So when something is what it says it is it should be the right thing to do to label it as such. But that confuses these Airport morons so maybe its not wise to always go with common sense. The problem with labeling a tank permanetly with the term "Compressed Air" is what to do with that label when its empty. It should be removed or defaced and "empty" applied to it. And back and forth as the contents change. I do this with cylders we treat and empty. The original label comes off when they are treated and "Empty" goes on. Course they then have a removed valve or a hole in them too. So verification is simple. I think realy when you get into it you can see how the airlines have a prolem "Verifying" with the valve still in. But the definition in DOT is "At atmospheric pressure" and I think IATA says that and adds "verifiable" ...

But if something is Empty then a label saying Empty is certainly the thing to do. I agree with you there. But I am not sure a Airport Goon will see it that way. Nor understand the changes in the labels. He doesn't realy get to verify by being able to see into the cylinder. So it could be a problem. In the old days some made SCUBA tank travelers remove the entire valve for shipping. And thats gonna be a problem if they do this.

Oh let me tell you a story about that. I guy I work with is a retired Marine guy who used to take trips to the Bahama's diving. One airline made him have his SCUBA tanks lose so they could be peered into. And there were SCUBA shops set up that do this down there. So he had this hankering for this particular Rum... So on the way back he fills the SCUBA 3/4 full of this Rum and gently screws in the J valve. Upon inspection to load all he has to do is remove the valve and this proves the tank is at Atmospheric pressure. And he makes sure the tank is upright. And he passes through and neatly makes it back with about five gallons of nice Island Rum. However he said he could never get the slight hint of that Rum out of that tank from them on and finaly had to just get another tank. And so therefore was never tempted to do this again. ;)

I always felt shipping your paintball tank out to yourself by ground was the best safest way to be sure you had it. Pain in the arse but... well.

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
Gt, go back and read my post again with these thoughts in mind.

I think your reading some of my comments that were mostly against the guy who refused Miscues tank as directed against you or someone. In fact I mostly agreed with some of your stuff.

no worries its cool.


You want a hard copy of the IATA without buying one?

Thanks, but i have one from taking a dangerous goods class for rad shipping (it was a quick and dirty 8 hour course), its just not right infront of me.


This whole Bioterrorism Act is just flat out screwball. I do not think they relized what they did with this one.

No kidding! We had a visit from the CDC a few months ago. There were some intresting "interpretations" That fun story isnt apporirty for AO so PM me if you want the scoop.



We just finished both of those. The Security plan is not as bad as it looks at first glance.

Correct,
really its all about the shipping and we dont ship a large volume of nasty stuff. Maybe YellowIII's every once in a great while, however we do ship out a considerable amount of posions that are related to certain breathing zone classes? In anycase we are not a shipping ccompany so most of that stuff doesnt apply to us.

[DarkViking]

I'm trying to see if I can't get a common policy going at the airlines. I've set up http://endpaintballIgnorance.com and it should be live soon. in the meantime you can access the site from

http://www.akamarkers.com/index.php