AGD is awful at presenting a good package to the customer

[speedyejl]

Didnt really know how to phrase it above.

So anyhow last week I got my xmag, I opened up the box I was pretty happy, I found the lousy emag manual, and a LX setup CDrom. The box was also decent looking, I was expecting a brown box that said AGD on it. Ok sort of cool. Now the next day my friends Speed comes in. Damn. Starting with the box, it came in a much nicer box, much. The opening it up there was a beautiful laminated fully ilustrated manual. It went over EVERY aspect of the marker complete with exploded views and such. I am willing to say it was more complete than the online xmag manual by far. Digging further in the Speed came with a car charger AND wall charger. Also included were a set of metric and standard allen keys, a barrel condom, an oring rebuild kit and some love juice.

To be honest the Speed's box contents were not that impressive, everything in there should come standard when you are buying a gun that costs almost $1000. Let alone AGD could include a bottle of autolube with their marker which costs $400 more.

Im not even nitpicking because the things that were included with the Speed are needed accessories, and WDP is a company which is known for form before function. Right now I have a bottle of autolube and an RT oring kit on order.

[Gadget]

I have to say that as much as I love my mags and think AGD is a great company - I think you've got some valid points there.

When I bought my 68 Automag 10 years ago, I was impressed with the manual, but when I got my Emag a month ago all I got was two photocopied sheets of paper and a video for a classic RT. Same with my new warp - very light on instructions.

[HoppysMag]

oh god, the box talk again... tom loves this.:D anyone else remeber the last box talk....

honestly i gotta say ya u got points but if i ran a company id rather be known for the quality and reputation of my company than how my box looks. id rather have a small company that is known for quality than a company that just craps things out and puts it in nice boxes... but ya to get new people to get mags they ether gotta try them . or see a nice box...

[Dave]

Hmm, I've never bought a brand new out of the box marker...but I think I know what your talking about...Its like your really excited about your new toy and when you are opening up the box, all the additional goodies are the icing on the cake and just reaffirm in your mind "yea!....yea! This is sweet!"

And when their isn't any of that, I could see how it's dissappointing. When I got my high speed ti 4200 video card, it had a very nice box and came with a ton of goodies, and made me all the happier, cause when I wasn't playing around with it, I'd be looking at the goodies. This is a $160 product. We are talking about a $1400 product...that costs more than some people spend on cars! You have very valid points. I think the right thing to do is to bring this up in a non-hostile way and give some good suggestions that AGD could do, and not bash on anything...that won't get much done.

I think its true that AGD is all about function over form, but we are talking the X-Mag, the Flagship product...if AGD was totally just interested in function, it wouldn't be all pretty w/ nice milling:D Its obvious that it was designed to be an eye catcher, and so should come with the appropriate accomodations, including a nice glossy manual, tools, etc. While it is true that AGD is a small company that focuses on the important stuff (a full color manual won't help the x-mag shoot further) I think adding the little touches will help people to appreciate that AGD is changing, and can keep up with the current times, if not fly right past:)

-Dave

[e mag]

he's not just talking about the box, he's also talking abotu what comes with the gun.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I don't think speedyejl was complaining about the box - he said it was nicer than he expected. He was complaining about what was IN the box. And he has a point.

AGD makes excellent products, and provides good customer support. But the manuals aren't great, and adding a few little extras in the box with their top-of-the-line products would add to customer satisfaction, I think.

WDP also makes a very good product, but they add to it with little extras to make every customer feel appreciated. And it costs them maybe $30 per marker to do it.

Many people at AO feel appreciated by AGD. Because of TK's posts here, because he plays with us, shows us his new projects, and occasionally gives us stuff. But to the 'Mag owners who don't belong here, I bet they're not feeling the same way. They probably never meet the man, never find out about the promo giveaways and contests, etc.

I agree that a crappy product with a pretty box and free stuff is still a crappy product, and not what any sensible person would want. But compare two good products, where one (the less expensive one!) comes with many accessories and a professional looking manual, and one doesn't. Now which one do you want?

[magman007]

hwy the cd is what people clammered for, and it is good, and indepth. The cd is deffinitely nice, and the speed has more to go over, the cd covers all that it needs to, and it has cool vids

[Kevmaster]

would you rather...spend $1000 for a nice gun and a kickass box and cool features to go with it...OR
sped $1000 for a kickass gun, average box and maybe have to buy your own wall charger adapter ($12) and bottle of lube ($5)?

I'll take the latter, thank you

[fire1811]

i really liked the cd manuals
the box was cool(which i dont take to the field so who cares?)
a wall charger would be nice though

[jdev]

i think AGD looks at giving what is necessary for you to operate your new marker purchase, hence the lube and parts and such..

i dont know about you, but ive only bought one AGD product, new in box, and that was my classic.

came with everything i NEEDED to operate the gun. few pages on operation and maintenence, and a video.

sure, a speed comes with a book. yippiee... another book to throw on the shelf.

since there are no internal parts to the mag that are color coded (minus boards on e/x-mags), there is no need for AGD to print a color booklet to explain to you how to use their marker.

its pretty straight foreward. when i first got into paintball, i was completely oblivious to anything. i watched the video and read the papers that was sent with it, and had a good comprehension of how a mag operated.

so, in summation.. if you NEED that shiny book with the exploded pictures (which by the way, you can get those exploded pics and manuals on AGD's site, im not positive if WDP offers this) go pickup a speed. if you need nothing more than a CD and few sheets of paper to tell you how to work your marker.. go pickup an e/x mag



.joe.

[Strider]

XMags don't come with lube?

The RTProX I recieved earlier this year had some... Weird...

[Albinonewt]

When I got my E-Mag I was a little surpised to see that the Spyder E-99 I bought a year ago came with more stuff then my E-Mag did. I was further suprised that my wife's custom 98 came with more. And only slightly less suprised to see that my friend's A-5 came with more.

Frankly, a AGD barrel cover would have gone a long way....

(But, none of that keeps me from using the marker, which I love).

[fire1811]

Originally posted by Strider
XMags don't come with lube?

The RTProX I recieved earlier this year had some... Weird...

yep mine too every agd marker i have owned came with a
bottle of autolube

[the_next_guy_]

I just threw my box away.

[fire1811]

Originally posted by the_next_guy_
I just threw my box away.

YOU MEAN YOU DONT TAKE IT TO THE FIELD WITH YOU :rolleyes:

lol not sure what i did with my box(i think shes at work;) )

[Kevmaster]

my XMag came with autolube

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by Kevmaster
my XMag came with autolube

Mine too. And the only allen key needed for the badboy.

[oldsoldier]

Buy a new Timmy. Nice box, bad instructions.

[Skoad]

uhhh my emag came with an allen wrench, spare parts including some orings, all the extra level 10 parts, and a bottle of lube.


i would have liked to see a book but wasn't a big deal. Oh and mine came in a white box. But you know a colorful box doesn't make you shoot any faster.

[Dayspring]

Ditto.


Originally posted by Jonesie


Mine too. And the only allen key needed for the badboy.

[MantisMag]

i just bought parts to put together my own computer. i was happy with hardware that came in a fedex box filled with peanuts and the part wrapped in bubble wrap. manuals and such were in a ziploc bag floating around the box. i don't care what my stuff comes in, as long as it comes to me in pristine condition and works the way it's supposed to.

[Meph]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
Buy a new Timmy. Nice box, bad instructions.

What are you talking about? Just because you buy a Dragon or Lasoya yet it comes with 2002 Intimidator instructions doesn't mean anything. Sure the boards are different and setting modes and everything with a Dragon is different on a 2K2 Timmy making the manual completely useless. But that's ....... oh wait.

[brett]

first everyone needs to know he bought it used from me.

Second, I told him Everything it was coming with and he said ok.

[cphilip]

LOL....

So well...then give him his oil and shut him up! :D

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by brett
first everyone needs to know he bought it used from me.

Second, I told him Everything it was coming with and he said ok.

The TRUTH will set you FREE

[SIGSays]

who cares... you get what you paid for... you gotta be the only *EDIT>>>POOF<<<* to complain... it's not like you carry around the box and bling bling it.. you just need the damn gun... and everything is plain and simple... like a mag... we buy quality products from agd.. not fancy ads... that don't keep there word... other companies sell cuz of fancy advertisement.. agd sells cuz of commitment and other big words...

[robertjuric]

all this talk of boxes and shipping makes we want to order a new marker. I was excited when I got my F4, b/c it was a step up from my stingray(:D) and it came w/ airlube, misc orings, and some allen keys.

[Riotz]

Presentation is key.

[cphilip]

Well mebbee when you talking about English assignments it is...

Results are what's important. I hardly think buying a used marker with some of the extra stuff obviously missing from the box is gonna give much credibility to his complaints.

[wyn1370]

Originally posted by Jonesie


Mine too. And the only allen key needed for the badboy.
you do know that their are other size screws than a 1/8th on there right?

[adam shannon]

when mine showed up i took the marker, charger, and module out and put the box in the basement with all the other boxes i keep till the warrantee expires from computer stuff.

i waited 10 months to get an x-mag who cares if it comes with oil or a fancy popup book i dont need to read cuz i had 10 months to study up on every damn thing i would need to know.

mine came with a free warp module (saved me $50) so who cares about a cheezy pull thru sqeegie, and bottle of oil.

the reason cheap markers come with lots of extra junk is so you almost forget for a second that you got a cheaply made marker. sorta like when your xmas stocking was stuffed with tons of little junk to cover the fact you didnt get the one big present you really wanted.

if the JMT works on you and all it takes is a bottle of lube and a fancy manual to look at trying to figure out why your new $1000 gun has FSDO...then those arent the droids your looking for, you can move along now. ill trade you a speed for your x-mag any day.

[Gadget]

You're missing the point - you and I might not care if it comes with a detailed manual, but that's because we hang out on a paintball forum and spend hours learning every minute detail about the marker we own......but we're in a (very) small minority.

The majority of customers value things like manuals - why should they have to go hunting on the net for maintenance info on a brand new $1400 marker?

I can take or leave freebies like barrel bungs + oil, but the one thing EVERY marker should ship with is a decent quality manual which covers how to strip the marker down and how to solve the most common faults. The 68 Automag had it, but the X/E Mags don't.

[GT]

my current mag is comming in about 100 different pieces, lol. I am building my first from "scratch" mag, where are my instructions?

On that note I hope to have a nice big post w/ pics on how to build you own mag.

jb

[IcantBelieveit]

How about this. Be thankful that you have an x-mag. if you don't like it b/c it doesnt have fancy manuals shiney boxes. maybe you need to think about switching marker comapanies. i mean, how many settings are really on the e-mag? and it comes with a CD to setup the LX...i really don't see what the big deal is? Why waste time and MONEY to produce laminated manuals with cute little 3d figures that pop up when your turn the page. when you cn get to the point short and simple with 2 sheets of paper? And the warp issue only have a photocopied sheet of paper for the insturctions. Now lets think about this....hrmm..how hard is it to set a warpfeed up? duh i don't know..jeez all the information you need to know is provided...lets stop nitpicking at this stupid garbage and appreciate the REAL Product. Again..i am getting tired of these nitpicking threads...it is getting old

[Albinonewt]

Amen Gadget.

I'm fairly new to paintball, having only played on and off for several years and I just started getting into it about 10 months ago. My E-Mag was my first major marker purchase, and it would have been nice to have had a nice manual with it, that had diagrams, told me the names of parts, and things like that.

The gun still shoots straight and all, but i would have killed for a manual.

[Steelrat]

Its not just the box. I went into the local paintball store and was looking at the guns on the wall. They all looked nice and shiney except for...the mag. A classic mag, with the crap matt gray body, no barrel, single trigger, $250. I mean, who the hell is going to buy that? It looked so much worst than the rest it was embarassing. AGD offers a wealth of great products for paintball, but most people will not be able to see beyond the crappy classic mag on the wall.

And the contents of the box are disappointing too. A nice manual and some parts are going to make players more happy than a sight rail that is blocked by the feed tube anyways.

[AGD]

Hey!! I thought you liked the Xmag box!! Full color, styrofoam cutouts.....

AGD

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

I thought it was awsome, I guess a lot of people would rather have a nice box than a nice gun? :p

[Steelrat]

How about decent box and great gun? AGD has the best mechanical minds in the industry, but its all for naught if the people dont buy the products. And, unfortunately, a lot of the paintball world is driven by looks. Which is all fine and dandy if AGD wishes to remain a niche supplier, but doesn't work well if they want to grow the business.

Sometimes an additional few dollars spent on packaging and extras has benefits that far outweigh their cost.

[adam shannon]

"quality shoots straight" it doesnt say anything about quality isnt as important as a flashy box so 12 yo kids want our products based on flash regardless of substance.

[Steelrat]

Right so because we value engineering, we can't possibly also blow a few dollars on a nice package. Good logic. Finely engineered products must come in austere packages.

Look, first impressions mean a lot. Why do you thing Saturn parks the cars in a nice spot on the showroom floor, gives the people coffee mugs and keychains? To make the customer feel better about their purchase.

And, as far as the 12 year old kid comments, manufacturers must change their products to suit the market. Do you think Cadillac was happy to modify their cars to appeal to the bling bling crowd? Probably not, but they managed to take the same mechanicals they had before and change the packaging to suit the intended buyer.

Its somewhat egotistical to assume that you and your peers are the only ones that a particular product should be geared towards.

[Army]

Many of you are missing some posted information: Speedyejl apparantly purchased his Xmag... USED! The seller told you that a while ago.

There is NO way AGD can be held liable for the condition of a USED marker, sent in the ALREADY OPENED AND RIFLED BOX. Things are missing? Well, you bought it USED, why blame AGD for that? It came in a MUCH nicer, and flashier, box than any previous AGD marker EVER has.

Need exploded views? PDF files are availbale in the store for free. Download the Emag manual, and you have all the info that will fit the Xmag too. While you are at the E-store, order a bottle of Autolube to replace the bottle the FORMER OWNER obviously kept for himself. You might want to snag a parts kit also, since he kept that too.


Steeratt...perhaps you haven't noticed that AGD succumbed to the bling bling a while ago, with the introduction of the Emag 3 years back, and is now making bright, colorful, and shiny parts and bodies for their line-up....Oh yeah, YOU bought a ULE body already, didn't you? Makes your comments moot.

[fire1811]

really out of all the boxes i have seen
the xmag box is the best

as army said you bought it used
so how is it AGD's fault??

[GT]

Originally posted by Steeratt
Why do you thing Saturn parks the cars in a nice spot on the showroom floor, gives the people coffee mugs and keychains?

Because saturns blow!!

This topic sucks! Lets talk about something cool like new mag parts or how stupid non-mag owners are because they think thier gun shoot further.

jb:D

[kenndogg]

Originally posted by gtrsi




This topic sucks! Lets talk about something cool like new mag parts or how stupid non-mag owners are because they think thier gun shoot further.

jb:D



It does, we all know that cockers shoot alot further than those goofy looking mags.:)

[luke]

:rolleyes:
Hey Tom I have an idea, put together a pretty box, manual and a standard O-ring and oil kit and sell it as a $150 upgrade. I'll take mine in bubble wrap and a brown paper bag. :p

[Albinonewt]

The problem is, that there are now two entirly different ways to sell paintball guns, and they both require different things.

The first is the traditional store/retailer route. In this case extras and a nice box are important. They obviously don't matter to the performance of the marker, but they do matter to sales. Spending an extra 1% on sales related extras can cause an enormeous increase in sales. In retail appearance is very important, because your appearence is competing with everyone else's appearance. Since no store that I know of allows you to take a bunch of paintball guns for a "test drive" you are down to only 2 things (3 if you assume the consumer is well read and checks reviews). First, is the appearance, and second is the person behind the counter. And we all know, the person behind the counter's stock answer will be "It's a good gun for a 'x' (beginner, intermediate, alien, whatever) and it shoots well."

The second is internet sales, which frankly, the box is meaningless at this point. Appearance is still important, but since the pictures shown online are likely to just be of the gun, that's were appearance is important. (Case in point, look at the E-Mag on paintball online (http://www.paintballonline.com) the thing looks stupid as hell with the Warpfeed.

[Star_Base_CGI]

How about a Design a Box contest.

AGD cuts the box open flat and scans it.

People design the box.

Anyway, AGD is great for contest promotions if not nothing else.

Are you going to keep the empty box or take it to paintball? I threw my warp box out.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
How about a Design a Box contest.

Been done. What you see is what you voted on.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Kevmaster
would you rather...spend $1000 for a nice gun and a kickass box and cool features to go with it...OR
sped $1000 for a kickass gun, average box and maybe have to buy your own wall charger adapter ($12) and bottle of lube ($5)?

I'll take the latter, thank you
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. First of all, Kevmaster, the Xmag is a $1400 gun. Both guns kick ***. Dont make it sound like, when buying a speed, all you get is an average gun with lots of extra flair. Like em or not, angels are decent guns. You would rather spend lots of money, get no extras, and still have to buy stuff because you're used to AGD.

A good thick manual shouldnt be looked at as flair or extra. My Eblade came with a very good manual, and it makes me happy to have it. If the Xmag only needs two printed pages and an allen wrench, why is their an entire forum for tech support.

A product should be rated based on the whole package. Tom needs to face the fact, that other tan just the box, there are important extras that help make the $1400 sale even better. I dont beleive for one second that you hard core AGD fans wouldnt be ecstatic with lots of extra stuff in your prescious Xmag box that you waited 6 months for.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip


Been done. What you see is what you voted on.
Yup!

But I agree that some of the “collateral” materials could use a facelift. People can say that the quality of the product is all that is important, but when all other companies are beefing up their additional printed materials (even when selling a much less expensive product) the “quality of the product” argument kind of sounds silly.

I will give you a similar situation about presentation even though you already purchased the product…..

When you go to a car dealership and buy a car but it will be delivered at a later date, do you want the car to be washed for you? What does it matter if there is dust on the car right? It is still a great car, right? ;) And not all dealerships DO wash their cars before delivery. But it says a lot about those that DO… and actually says a lot about those that DON’T as well.

Well… the same can be said about collateral materials accompanying other high dollar equipment. Packaging and collateral materials are important whether some would like to think they are not. AGD has taken the first step and listened to its customers and revamped their packaging. But I don’t think revamping their collateral materials would be a bad thing either… in fact, I think it will help the overall image.

I personally think the collateral materials should reflect the total purchase price of the product. And when someone is paying the money they do for an E/X-Mag you would think they would get collateral materials as least to the quality of other lower priced markers on the market. Otherwise it almost looks like the sale of the product is all that matters. “Heck, I gave you a good product and that is all you are going to get.”

After all, it is like buying a Ferrari and having the owner’s manual be a photocopied black and white stack of papers stapled together in the corner and put in a brown paper bag. Does that make the CAR any less “good” or any less “quality”? Nope. And honestly, I consider AGD the Ferrari (or similar top end car) of the paintball world. And when the UGO of the paintball world can present a better “full experience” with their products, you have to ask yourself why AGD can not.

And it is not an issue of whether it is NEEDED or not. It is an issue of what is being done as standard for other markers in its class (and even below its class), and why it isn’t being done. Sometimes things ARE done simply because it is standard… keeping up with the Jones’.

I think it is a valid point of conversation. And with the amount of times folks change markers and marker companies now days it makes the issue even more important. I am sure Tom is reading all of this and listening to all sides. I for one am not bashing AGD in any way, and I don’t think the majority of those who think the collateral materials could use a facelift are either. And the fact that folks CARE, and post about it, shows something good about AGD’s customers…. which reflects well on AGD themselves. :)

[cphilip]

Well Jedi I think its a difference in Phylosophies of how to do customer support to the age and experience of the customers. And I think its at that crossroads where the computer and the ability to simply print out a hard copy is being the way most manufacturers will be going soon. Since WDP has no factory sponsored site like this they HAVE to include a manual and such. They do not WANT a factory internet presence at this time. So many Angel users fill the void but that lacks the manufacturers attention and input that we have here. Heck we even provide you Angel people with the best Tech in the whole world right here to help out that way! Plus they do indeed NEED to include more special tools because of the design of the thing

One may disagree with the choice as to which is better but it takes a lot of money to operate a site too. Rather than print manuals. If you have to chose then you can say that Tom has chosen this road to go. Time will bear out if its a right move or not. I got no problem with it.

[kenndogg]

I don't have an xmag or emag but when I got my eblade frame it came with a damn thick manual that explains EVERYTHING. I don't see why its so hard to produce something like that for AGD's product. It doesn't have to be all colorful or what not. Simple black and white would just be fine. Heck even Kingman's electro guns had better instructions. And thats coming from a company thats purely in it for profit. I recently bought a warp and all it came with is a sheet of paper that doesn't even explain how to properly mount it. Needless to say I'm trying to get rid of it now for a halo b.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well Jedi I think its a difference in Phylosophies of how to do customer support to the age and experience of the customers. And I think its at that crossroads where the computer and the ability to simply print out a hard copy is being the way most manufacturers will be going soon. Since WDP has no factory sponsored site like this they HAVE to include a manual and such. They do not WANT a factory internet presence at this time. So many Angel users fill the void but that lacks the manufacturers attention and input that we have here. Heck we even provide you Angel people with the best Tech in the whole world right here to help out that way! Plus they do indeed NEED to include more special tools because of the design of the thing

One may disagree with the choice as to which is better but it takes a lot of money to operate a site too. Rather than print manuals. If you have to chose then you can say that Tom has chosen this road to go. Time will bear out if its a right move or not. I got no problem with it.
Phil,
I disagree. To run a site takes pennies compared to other forms of advertising, manual printing, etc. And I know this as FACT. That is why it is being used.

It is good to ALSO provide the materials for download, but to not also provide a fully printed NICE manual with a product is skimping out… no other excuse holds water. Also, by saying “we have it all online” is saying that those that do not have internet access don’t matter. It is fine to want to offer every possible way to assist your customers, but you START with real world materials not Internet Materials. Heck, the only way the opposite would be true is if the company WAS an internet company and only dealt with internet related products.

Because the internet allows easier and more cost effective support you don’t neglect the standard ways, sorry. It is an ADDITION, to standard methods, not the ONLY way. I know many people who don’t have steady internet access, and in fact none at all. I saw people shooting Mags this past weekend that are not members of AO either.

I say again… use the tools you have available to you, but you have to remember that those tools don’t do a bit of good if all of your customers can’t use them. And ALL of AGD’s customers can read a printed manual accompanying a purchased marker…. I don’t think that can be said about the internet. This is not an issue of using the latest tools or not, it is about not keeping up with the basics. You don’t have to choose one or the other….. unless you can’t afford both.. but then it should be said as such. But I find it odd that a company that can sell a $1400 marker could not afford great looking accompanying manuals and collateral materials.

Heck, almost all of the major companies out there (not paintball related) use BOTH the internet and standard methods. Sure, tech support is great on the internet, it cuts costs a lot. But when I purchased my Kurby I got damn good collateral materials. When I purchased my stereo equipment I got damn good collateral materials. When I purchased our video game systems I got damn good collateral materials. And it seems that when folks purchase other markers they get collateral materials MUCH better than what AGD is providing with their products… which cost MORE.

I hope you can see where I am coming from with this.

[cphilip]

OH I see it. But you start off with that you "disagree" with me and then launch into cost comparisons. And in fact I never even went there. At most I kind of indicated it was a cost condideration to DO IT this way. One would assume I ment "cost savings" if one was to assume anything at all from what I stated. Which you went to great lengths to AGREE with while labeling it a "Disagreement". ;)

And as to CD roms and cost. Let me go further and give you some personal experince. I used to print out my Hazardous Waste Management Manual to the tune of almost $7 a copy and these have to go to every user of chemicals on campus. I would go through 200 or so a year. And more if there were major revisions and they ALL had to be replaced. Now I spin out CD's and include not just mine but ALL the Safety manuals for the entire university on just one CD at a cost of about 50 cents a copy. So it can be cheaper going computer based. That part you missed.

[Tobe2be]

Ok ima include my two senses but hey i dont think it matters that much. My Dad owns a used car dealership in NY. you can call me a salesman. I can make the crapiest car look good and make a customer super happy. It works vice a versa i can have a excellent running car that has no problems but the shells have little dents and little nicks and the customer will be reffing and complainig bout the little dings and dents. so sometimes looks are everything. it doesnt truly hurt to waste 10 more bucks or even 50 more bucks on a nice color manual and some agd barrel condoms repair kit and some oil. and maybe even a discount card for there next purchase. think about loose 30-50 bucks a gun but get 10 more customers. i think it worth it because your making up the money with more customer. and once you have a customer you can count on him to keep on buying stuff.look at me i bought my first mag in february. and im already up to my 3rd one. and im thinking of getting an x in the future. anyways i love AGD. and tom thanks for making excellent markers.

[Thordic]

Originally posted by gtrsi


Because saturns blow!!




My Saturn pwns you.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip
OH I see it. But you start off with that you "disagree" with me and then launch into cost comparisons. And in fact I never even went there. At most I kind of indicated it was a cost condideration to DO IT this way. One would assume I ment "cost savings" if one was to assume anything at all from what I stated. Which you went to great lengths to AGREE with while labeling it a "Disagreement". ;)

And as to CD roms and cost. Let me go further and give you some personal experince. I used to print out my Hazardous Waste Management Manual to the tune of almost $7 a copy and these have to go to every user of chemicals on campus. I would go through 200 or so a year. And more if there were major revisions and they ALL had to be replaced. Now I spin out CD's and include not just mine but ALL the Safety manuals for the entire university on just one CD at a cost of about 50 cents a copy. So it can be cheaper going computer based. That part you missed.
LOL I see your point.

But I will also point out that for YOU, you knew your target "customers" and knew that the CDs would work for ALL of your "customers". But for standard products, I would provide a CD as an added bonus for those that can use it, but would never neglect the thing that ALL of the customers can use... the printed manuals. ;)

Now days you can't assume that customers have a computer, let alone internet access.... no matter how many DO have those things. Heck, I can walk down my street and over half of the houses I knock on the doors of have neither. And the same can be said about the friends of my childen, and other family members of mine.

This is why I state that the basics should be the FIRST priority, and not the other way around... in this case, as with most cases.

Tobe2be
Very true.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by cphilip
One may disagree with the choice as to which is better.... Time will bear out if it's a right move or not....

Well I did then say that!

...and that is what is going on here. A lively disagreement about if it's the right time or if it's enough just to do that. And I suspect there will be disageement there.

I would bet that a large proportion of our customer base is computer literate. And has access to one. And that I think would be interesting to know. Most kids that play paintball are. And most of them are kids.

I predict a time coming soon where ALL companies will not include a manual. But perhaps a simple sheet or card with the Web Adress and even a mail in request card for a hard copy to customers that cannot do the Web thing. A simple sheet of instructions will be the only other thing to hold them over until that full copy arrives if they cannot get online and get it. It may not be far off realy.

[AGD]

Guys,

Its pretty simple, manuals like the WDP one, while admittedly very pretty, cost a fortune. Its not the cost per manual but the cost for the whole run. You have to print like a thousand of them to justify it and at say 15 bucks a piece thats 15k. Second problem is that if something changes you can't change the manual, at ALL!

We went the cd route because we could do them in reasonable quantities at a reasonable price , we could include videos and we can change it easily. We KNOW our stuff is changing on a monthly basis and are allowing for it in all aspects of our marketing.

AGD

[shartley]

Originally posted by AGD
Guys,

Its pretty simple, manuals like the WDP one, while admittedly very pretty, cost a fortune. Its not the cost per manual but the cost for the whole run. You have to print like a thousand of them to justify it and at say 15 bucks a piece thats 15k. Second problem is that if something changes you can't change the manual, at ALL!

We went the cd route because we could do them in reasonable quantities at a reasonable price , we could include videos and we can change it easily. We KNOW our stuff is changing on a monthly basis and are allowing for it in all aspects of our marketing.

AGD
And honestly, this is what I thought was the case. It is really not about what is best, but what is the most affordable for your (AGD the company) needs…. Which sometimes are not the same thing. This is the lesser of two evils, not done because it was the best thing all things being equal.

This was not about taking advantage of an up and coming technology because it was best thing to do it, but taking advantage of an up and coming technology because it fits a “budget” requirement. This is not about being “forward thinkers”, but because of a budget restraint.

The issue about not being able to change a manual if something changes is the SAME for the CD manual as it is for a Printed Manual. The only difference is that the COST to change it is much different.. again, making it an issue of “budget” over what is best for the customer. After all, once a CD is shipped with a product you can’t “change” that either… it just costs you less to change the cd for the next shipment. Manuals CAN be changed and reprinted to reflect changes. And in fact, many times the actual Manual is NOT changed, but a “supplement”, containing the changes, is supplied with it in all subsequent shipments.

Please don’t anyone think I am in any way coming down on AGD, for I am not. I am just pointing out that this is a decision made by them for budget reasons and ease of change reasons, and not because it is the “right” way to do it if budgets were not an issue. Because if that was the case, everyone would be doing it this way…. and that is not the case.

This is working for AGD for various reasons, and budget being the pivotal one. At least they are attempting to do all they can given their restraints. But that does not make the other arguments invalid ones. This has been a great discussion….

[JEDI]

...This has been a great discussion. I think what Tom has to deal with is, like it or not, people like the extra stuff. It may cost more, and it may be harder to make changes or reprints, but thats business. Sure it costs more. But you need to do what the customer wants, in order to make them happy. Saying its costs more isn't a reason not to do it. Every company has to pay to put these things out. The difference is that some suck it up and do it, and some don't. Where does AGD stand? I mean, how much does it cost to give away $130 warp feeds every two weeks...

[Star_Base_CGI]

WHats the CD look like?
Can someone scan one?

[Steelrat]

I don't know where you get your information. I never bought a ULE body. I actually prefer the industrial look to the colorful look. The only ULE I would have bought would have been a black ULE.

I detected a personal edge to your last comment, and I really don't see the need for that, especially from a moderator.

[Strider]

LX CD:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=675371

Slick!

[SlipknotX556]

Its all about the box.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Steeratt
I don't know where you get your information. I never bought a ULE body. I actually prefer the industrial look to the colorful look. The only ULE I would have bought would have been a black ULE.

I detected a personal edge to your last comment, and I really don't see the need for that, especially from a moderator.
Besides Army, we're discussing the extra measures different companies go to on top of the product. No one is debating the quality of AGD's stuff, be it the older parts or the newer parts. Your response is completely off topic, and uncalled for.

In my opinion, there should be no debate (even though I welcome it). People on these boards, and AGD customers outside of AO are saying they want the extras. The box and the stuff IS important. So we can debate its logic all we want, but the fact is, people want it. It wont harm the people that dont care about it, so why not cover both bases?

[Riotz]

Originally posted by JEDI

Besides Army, we're discussing the extra measures different companies go to on top of the product. No one is debating the quality of AGD's stuff, be it the older parts or the newer parts. Your response is completely off topic, and uncalled for.

In my opinion, there should be no debate (even though I welcome it). People on these boards, and AGD customers outside of AO are saying they want the extras. The box and the stuff IS important. So we can debate its logic all we want, but the fact is, people want it. It wont harm the people that dont care about it, so why not cover both bases?

AGREED!

[Steelrat]

Steeratt...perhaps you haven't noticed that AGD succumbed to the bling bling a while ago, with the introduction of the Emag 3 years back, and is now making bright, colorful, and shiny parts and bodies for their line-up....Oh yeah, YOU bought a ULE body already, didn't you? Makes your comments moot.


Your response is completely off topic, and uncalled for.

My response was a reply to his statement. I was perfectly content discussing the packaging before that.

And I agree with you entirely, the packaging could only help.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Steeratt

My response was a reply to his statement. I was perfectly content discussing the packaging before that.


Right, I know. I'm with you...:)
Army, you also brought up that he bought his gun used, and AGD cant be held responsable. I agree, but he also mentioned that his friend's Speed came with a lot more than any NEW AGD product. I know this is true, because I've seen them new in the box myself.

[cphilip]

Point... counter point though....

The original Author of this thread did make much of it having no marker oil and why did "AGD" not have marker oil....when indeed it would have.

I think that was Army's point there. His main complaint did APPEAR to maybe be more about the Oil thing if you read it that way. And that might have been the original mistake was to not realize that it SHOULD have had that.

[Steelrat]

Like many other threads, this one has changed into something other than what it was originally.

And JEDI, sorry man, I misunderstood ya. My bad.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by cphilip
Point... counter point though....

The original Author of this thread did make much of it having no marker oil and why did "AGD" not have marker oil....when indeed it would have.

I think that was Army's point there. His main complaint did APPEAR to maybe be more about the Oil thing if you read it that way. And that might have been the original mistake was to not realize that it SHOULD have had that.

Thats a very good point good buddy :D But I think at this point, its not really all about Mr. Original Poster. This is a concern we all have. He simply resurected the problem with his own scenario.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by JEDI


Thats a very good point good buddy :D But I think at this point, its not really all about Mr. Original Poster. This is a concern we all have. He simply resurected the problem with his own scenario.

As we often do. Make a moutain out of what was a Mole hill! :D

[Army]

STEERATT! I DO apologise to you for the ULE purchase comment. I was also on PBReview as I was typing that, and actually meant that for that website. So, despite the last sentence seeming like a personal attack on YOU, it wasn't supposed to be on THIS site, and by no means was directed towards you.

I'm awake WAY too late sometimes!

I WAS commenting on this that you wrote:

Its not just the box. I went into the local paintball store and was looking at the guns on the wall. They all looked nice and shiney except for...the mag. A classic mag, with the crap matt gray body, no barrel, single trigger, $250. I mean, who the hell is going to buy that? It looked so much worst than the rest it was embarassing. AGD offers a wealth of great products for paintball, but most people will not be able to see beyond the crappy classic mag on the wall.
And:

And, as far as the 12 year old kid comments, manufacturers must change their products to suit the market. Do you think Cadillac was happy to modify their cars to appeal to the bling bling crowd? Probably not, but they managed to take the same mechanicals they had before and change the packaging to suit the intended buyer. Which is why I got confused between threads. Sorry.

The box means nothing to me, especially when you go into a Pball store and see the marker on the wall....with NO boxes in sight...no selling points there. Many markers come with a pile of stuff that are to insure it works as advertised; tools, oils, books, digi-pets, Dick Tracy 3-way wristwatch... See, the 'Mag doesn't NEED all that stuff. Oil it, set the velocity, fill the hopper, and go play. No adjustments, no programming, no timing, no late night study session to understand page 87 of volume #3. If you are going to need something for your 'Mag, it will be a while before you notice anyway (standard suck-up comment!).

When my Emag arrived, I hardly noticed it was IN a box, just a bunch of stuff that was blocking my view! Sarah will tell you, that the flying paper shreds hadn't yet settled before I had the trigger adjusted and a tank hooked up!

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by Strider
LX CD:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=675371

Slick!


Thats a pretty neat CD, like a CD buisiness card.

Thanks! I was thinking maybe we could make some CD art.

At the very least, people could downlaod the information to CD and print a cover.

[Tunaman]

Well for those of you that havent seen them, the NEW boxes are really cool and just perfect for the product. The manuals they include is all any idiot needs to fix his/her marker. I dont see what all the fuss is about. Would you rather have a really nice marker and semi- lame packaging, or a 50 page detailed manual(which you will surely need) for a marker that chops paint?:D :eek:

[Riotz]

Well, I'm gonna make this brief since typing here seems to be a waste of times sometimes...


I work for a paintball store. When a person buys a paintball marker they don't see the box. But when I hand them the box, they have another reaction. That selling point will have them tell their friends on how impressed they are with the OVERALL presentation of the product. (Features, Quality, Looks, Delivery).


I've always said that AGD should get new pacakge designs for everything, especially the boxes. I guess they only like taking certain ideas. :rolleyes: :p

[Steelrat]

No prob man :) After seeing how you jumped on Jim Drew over at PBN, i was afraid I was going to be the next victim ;)

Seriously though, I just got my new Viking, so I'll compare and contrast the packaging and presentation of the marker:

Marker: Utilitarian, just like the mag. I think that AKA is very much like AGD, in that they offer finely engineered products that stress function above form. And how it shoots! Oh, heaven...but anyways.

Box: Or bag, as it were. AKA sends the Viking in a nice gun bag, with a side pouch for tools and oil, and three side pouches for barrels. VERY nice.

Oil: Speaking of oil, one bottle of AKA lube.

Manual: On a 1.44 Disc. Oh well, looks like I need to go the ol' printer. But VERY informative, with great diagrams and schematics.

Overall, very basic, functional stuff included. Reinforces the point that this is a marker intended for play, and not a beauty contest. Having contemplated this, I think I understand a little better where AGD is coming from. But the bag IS nice...

[Lohman446]

Packaging - a case... seriously, why not make the box a case, so it might cost $30 - add it to the price of the marker. I would, and I bet most others would, pay that extra $30 - we are getting a functional case, not a damn discarbable box. And think of that as packaging. Ok, maybe Im an idiot in business but we are dealing wtih a product where $30 wouldn't be 5% of the price and no one would notice the increase, those that did would appreciate the extra... maybe?

[speedyejl]

First of all I would like to aplogize about my coments on the oil and parts kit. I asumed that they were not included in the retail version because my xmag package came VERY complete with all the LX parts, CD, manual, etc. Anyhow I ordered lube and parts on monday and it just came today (thats the pic).

It seemed like my point was missed a little earlier though in some more recents posts it seems to have rememerged. When your paying that much for something you really should get extras. I forgot to mention that the speed also came with lots of stickers. Honestly I would be willing to pay $50 more for a nice glossy colorful manual, condom, etc. Also like I said the Angel came with a metric set. Someone above mentioned that they got a 1/8 allen key the only one they need. Very much not true for me. Lets see 5/32 for drop screws, 9/64 or 5/32 for the battery screws, 1/8 alot for of stuff, 3/32 for hall sensor cover, 5/64 grip frame cover screws, 1/16 trigger adjustment.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by AGD
We went the cd route because we could do them in reasonable quantities at a reasonable price , we could include videos and we can change it easily. We KNOW our stuff is changing on a monthly basis and are allowing for it in all aspects of our marketing.

AGD

So, where does one get a full description E-Mag manual?

I could really use one.

[hitech]

eMag manual in PDF (http://www.airgun.com/downloads/emaginstructions.pdf )
ReTro valve (same as eMag Valve) exploded view in PDF (http://www.airgun.com/downloads/retroexploded1.pdf
)
And of Course, the eMag video (http://store.airgun.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=17&Product_ID=24&CATID=15)