I thought autocockers could only do 10bps (video!)

[Animal Mother]

I remember in an interview with someone from Race Gun on PigTV saying that a cocker can only do 10bps due to the autocockers design. he said you can set the race frame past 10bps but "what's the point"

Then I saw this: http://www.teamatf.net/videos/racegun/RGP_512x409.zip

Damn! they say that's 20bps and it sure looks like it to me. It has no eye and you can see him chop one. But I have never seen a cocker that fast.

Again I say... DAMN!

[BajaBoy]

cockers are fast.. i dunno where your getting that from lol. There are Many vids of them doing 16+

[Animal Mother]

On PigTV, some guy from Race Gun was introducing the "new" Race Frame and said the cocker could only cycle 10 times per second due to the nature of the cocker...

damn.. someone has gotta have the link

[e mag]

i think with the stock parts they are limited to 13bps, but if you get lighter parts they can cycle faster.

[Animal Mother]

Well here is the huge thread on just that subject.. I bet the link to the video is womewhere in there: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24945&perpage=30&highlight=autococker%20can%20only%20cycle&pagenumber=1

[frntplayer]

an eblade cocker can do over 20 bps not cps with an eye with no choppin

[Brett23]

Yes they can.:D Any ways I think the limited bps thing may just be do to the machanical parts. Remember not only is the trigger frame replaced but also the 3/4 way. An electro pneumatic 3 way would beable to handle higher rates of fire, do to the fact electricity moves awhole hell of lot faster the a human finger or air. Course I could just be blowing smoke out my butt too.

[Animal Mother]

Ok... THIS is what the guy... from Race Gun said..

"Due to the machanical nature of the autococker you can only shoot 10bps, you can turn our race frame higher but what's the point, right?" then the interviewer chuckled and they both smiled and he went on to introduce his new Race Frame and talked about how they will have different grips for it in the future and the people that buy now can tade in their crappy grips etc. etc...

If that's not what he said.. find the clip from PigTV.. I was surprised myself since I thought an autococker could shoot fasterthan 10bps.

WTF?

[cphilip]

It will shoot faster but at some point it cannot recharge fast enough to give you a full velocity shot. So you can run it up there and get balls to come out but not consistently at the velocity you want. Past around 13 or so this gets evident. With some modifications you can get some of this out but at some point you risk chopping more as you have to run it at a higher pressure and thus a faster bolt speed to compensate for the recharge you need. I know of a few guys that have gotten thiers to a compromise of speed and little chopping at around 16 BPS with a Race frame. There is a tiny bit of drop off when they get ripping around that but seems to do fine as long as they have something like a Halo pushing the balls in to place.

[Hoplon]

Ebladed cockers have less drop off than most guns. Especially with a good reg and i high flow valve. On my ebladed cocker i have a sidewinder and a rat valve. I've never noticed any shootdown. I'm sure their is some but it's insignifigant.

I noticed that my bushmaster has shootdown and my buddie's angel did, but never my cocker(or emag for that matter).

As far as having to risk choping goes, i've been able to get into the 16bps range before i have to turn the lpr up so high that the gun can chop. I usually don't run it this high sense i only use a 12volt revy anyways. I've never been a fan of halos and warps.

I have no idea how fast the gun itself is capable of firing. I would estimate early 20's. It can fire much faster than i would ever need to in a game i know that much.

[Muzikman]

10bps seems a little low, but there is no way a cocker can shoot 20bps, the bolt open time would not be long enough. If you could get 20bps out of a cocker it would turn into a blender because the bolt speed would be really fast. There would also be no way to get a LP cocker to even fully cycle that fast. When I get home I'll talk with Nerobro and see if we can come up with some numbers.

[FalconGuy016]

Originally posted by Muzikman
10bps seems a little low, but there is no way a cocker can shoot 20bps, the bolt open time would not be long enough. If you could get 20bps out of a cocker it would turn into a blender because the bolt speed would be really fast. There would also be no way to get a LP cocker to even fully cycle that fast. When I get home I'll talk with Nerobro and see if we can come up with some numbers.

There are a lot of videos of it

[Muzikman]

What? A cocker shooting 20bps??? or 20cps???

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Why couldn't the bolt have plenty of time to cycle at 20BPS?

Az

[lew]

24.3 balls per second is the highest I've heard of.

[cockermongol]

It's possible. Cocking pressure doesn't matter with an eblade as the gun doesn't fire on partially fed balls. The smc ram is (or at least it used to be) the fastest ram. Most electro cockers don't worry about cocking pressure when they have an eye.

[Meph]

Well, it's up for debate.

I mean can an autococker cycle 20bps? Yes. I've seen Raced cockers do that, with trigger pulls so short you couldn't measure it.

However, what I think the guy must've meant was past 10bps with the complete closed-bolt cycle. So that you don't have the bolt moving back and forth so fast that it's more or less an open-bolt marker. Other wise past that, my guess is it becomes like that and starts to get blowback up the feedneck as well as possibly shootdown.

Just not sure, only my guesses right now. Would have to do many tests for confirmation. So now it's only theory.

[frntplayer]

http://pub157.ezboard.com/fnzpaintballfrm3.showMessage?topicID=154.topic

download that its an eblade

[nicad]

how old is this??
yes a cocker can cycle past 20.
yes it can shoot at least 20balls per second.
there is no problem with blowback up the ball feed neck if you have an electronic grip timed properly.. thats the whole point of an electric grip... it takes care of the timeing. ROF will not change that.

to break down an example (every setup is different) of a setup that can shoot at 20bps:

4ms to drop the sear and let the hammer move forward, strike the valve.
18ms for the bolt to move back (consider angel LCD's move the bolt & hammer forward AND hold the valve open (dwell) all in 14ms)
15ms for a halo to push a ball in
13ms to close the bolt.

that all adds up to 50ms wich is 20cycles in one second. NO you can NOT do this with a stock cocker...

if you really think the bolt will "break the ball" cause it has to move so fast.. how fast does the mag bolt cycle? a few ms?

EVERY marker fires in "closed bolt" configuration.. it would be impossible to puff a ball out otherwise. the difference is where it reisdes when at rest or not at its max ROF.
as each open and closed bolt setup reaches its true max firing rate (dropoff is a regulator recharge issue), they operate with almost exact same characteristics.

soooo.. angel, mag, cocker, timmy, impy, matrix, etc-- if the parts are done properly and light enough, they will all shoot just as fast. theres no reason for them not to.

PS- that Eblade video is only going ~12bps.. not bad for semi.. buts its no 20bps in the Race video. :)
PSS- the video of the Race going 20 and "breaks a ball".. watch it again.. one ball lags for some reason and the next one goes right through it about 2" from the tip of the barrel.. pretty cool.

ok done ranting. night!

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Hoplon
Ebladed cockers have less drop off than most guns. Especially with a good reg and i high flow valve. On my ebladed cocker i have a sidewinder and a rat valve. I've never noticed any shootdown. I'm sure their is some but it's insignifigant.

I noticed that my bushmaster has shootdown and my buddie's angel did, but never my cocker(or emag for that matter).

As far as having to risk choping goes, i've been able to get into the 16bps range before i have to turn the lpr up so high that the gun can chop. I usually don't run it this high sense i only use a 12volt revy anyways. I've never been a fan of halos and warps.

I have no idea how fast the gun itself is capable of firing. I would estimate early 20's. It can fire much faster than i would ever need to in a game i know that much.


You pretty much duplicated what I said...

Higher bolts speed to do it is a result of the higher LPR's and stuff. And I said the 16 BPS range was the point of diminishing return. And chopping becomes an issue due to that higher bolt speed. The fact that its controlled by an E Frame I don't think realy changes any of that part of it. The bolt speed and recharge rates that is.

But that said 16 BPS is pretty darn fast!

[Automaggin2]

This video is soooooooooooooo old. It came out like 2 years ago.

[jinxed]

EVERY marker fires in "closed bolt" configuration.. it would be impossible to puff a ball out otherwise. the difference is where it reisdes when at rest or not at its max ROF.

The term "fires from a closed bolt" refers to the position of the bolt while the gun is "ready to fire", not where the bolt is when the valve is opened.

The max speed of closed-bolt guns is generally lower then open-bolts because there is an extra step in the cycle. This means a lower CPS and a lower BPS because the bolt can not be open while the hammer is dropping.
For a cocker, this meant a slow cycle rate simply because the timing had to have enough "padding" to allow for alot of flexability.

The Racegun people basically just made a perfectly timed autococker. There is no "padding" in the cycle at all, and thats great. I like cockers, and I don't want to see them die out.
On the other hand, we have open-bolt blowbacks and ramvalves doing 35bps! Yikes! I think its time to BRING BACK THE FORCE-FEED LOADER BAN...

-nick

[EsPo]

even faster


http://members.cox.net/pgipaintguns/page8.htm

[Automaggin2]

o yea, and whoever told you cockers only shoot 10 a second, is a crackhead.

[jinxed]

The Osiris video looks cool.
But...

Its not a cocker.
It works similar to a dual-ramvalve like the Excal, except that at higher speeds, it will work like an open-bolt ramvalve. They just stuck the pneumatics on the outside to give it that "cocker-ish" appearence.

I like the design though. Very clever.
However, PGI is notorius for fishy marketing.
There Firestorm was an open-bolt conversion for the cocker, but they tried to tell people it wasnt..

nick

[LittlePaintballBoy]

that osiris thing is messed, the back block like stays out.