Why is a Mag is better than a Spyder Imagine?

[68MagDfeater]

so why is a mag better than a spyder? I know that your thinking that thats the most stupidest thing youve ever heard but its not for me ive already got a mag but its for my friend, hes getting a mag from another friend and his dad is kinda upset that he wants to get another gun so soon so the only way we can convince him is to give his dad a written reason from someone else besides us why the mag is better than a spyder period... let alone an Imagine. so if who ever reads this wont mind helping us out with our HUGE PROBLEM so thank you for reading our sorrowful forum and wanting to help us {right?}:( :D

[AdrenalineMag]

anything to help out someobdy with getting a mag :).

mags are better than spyders because they are much more consistant with their fps due to the design of the gun. the spyder and therefore many of the "beginner" level guns in paintball dont have the best design. they use a "spring loaded" hammer to actuate the air valve that releases gas to recock and fire the gun. this is a very simple and cheap design which makes it perfect for a beginner gun. however it can be very unreliable due to certain problems like cup seals scratching and becoming useless, and springs and other parts wearing out. the automag design is made with extremely durable parts and is therefore extremely reliable. even if something were to go wrong with an automag they have one of the best tech support groups in all of paintball. automags ar emore consistant, and therefore this makes them more acurate than spyders & their clones, etc.

this should be enough

[Animal Mother]

My cousin has an imagine...

Been through two E-grips because they have gone bad, the barrel got stuck on the gun and we needed a vice and and channel locks to get it off annd it scratched the hell out of the barrel.. all the bolted on crap has fallen off due to the cheap metal annd the threads just falling off..

For around $200 it's a great starter gun.. just really cheaply made. Not accurate since it kicks so hard and it chops paint like crazy when he gets on the trigger.

Look into the bushmasters, cheap and pretty good.

[Morfesto]

The Imagine is a great marker. You should try giving it some upgrades like a new barrel and a regulator befor you go off and get a new marker. Its not the marker its the player. All you need is a good paint to barrel match.

Once your Imagine is tricked out then it would be time to conside moving on to somthing new you can trick out :D .

[Torbo]

the imagine is cheaply made. I hesitate to call it junk, but they are not reliable at all. A mag is simply better made, more consistant.

[Morfesto]

I dont know about you but all the ppl on the kingman forums will say they are pretty reliable and so will I. I have a Spyder Aggressor and its very reliable, never broke down at the field. I just needs to be properly maintained.

[Recon by Fire]

I wouldn't say a Spyder is not a realiable. I had a Spyder AMG for 1.5 years of play and it never broke or had a problem. But I would say that Mags are a more durable marker :)

[TheDuelist]

I have owned both Mags and Spyders. I have a Mag Classic which I purchased in 1993 which has never been rebuilt and still shoots consistantly even after sitting on a shelf unused for several years. I have an original Spyder compact which I got from my brother who quit playing not long after they came out. I have rebuilt it a couple of times so people can have a marker when they play.

Do I consider the spyder as good as a mag?

No.

The mag is simple to maintain and is more consistant and for the money you pay for the Spyder you can save a bit more and have a marker that will last you a lifetime with minimal maintenance. THe money you would spend upgrading the Spyder could go into paint or an air system. Patience and preference are the keys here. Be patient with your purchase. Buying something you have to upgrade is wasting your money. Buying something that doesn't need upgrades to be "as good" is spending wisely.

In the end its the decision of the person who is going to use the marker not the people responding to this thread. Good luck deciding.

[silentdeath55]

In the past 6 months, Kingman has pumped out a lot of electric guns. Each of them the same, but sone have a sight rail or foregrip or some other bell and/or wistle to make them cost more. The recent downpour of "new" markers can only mean one thing, cheap parts, and a cheap gun.

I own a mag, and my brother owns a spyder. Two completely different guns. I cant even begin to compair them. If i had the time i could come up with 100+ reasons why a mag is better then a spyder.

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by Torbo
the imagine is cheaply made. I hesitate to call it junk, but they are not reliable at all. A mag is simply better made, more consistant.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, my E-99 is great, very reliable. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I get -/+ 4
fps when I chrono.

[cky shane]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, my E-99 is great, very reliable. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I get -/+ 4 Yea, maybe with a Bob Long Torpedo and nitro.

[Torbo]

Originally posted by cky shane
Yea, maybe with a Bob Long Torpedo and nitro.


That would work. But why would you do that. The reg would cost half as much as the marker. A half decent n2 tank would cost more than the marker alone. That just doesnt make any sense at all. And add a barrel on top of that. I guess my negative experiances cant be expected to sway your opinion too much. Hopefully you wont ponder the cost to benefits for too long, as its pretty obvious. And i assume im gonna get flamed by spyder owners who dropped enough money into a cheaply made blowback that they could have bought a really nice high end gun in the first place.

[Morfesto]

The intimidator is a Electro pnumatic blowback. It is basicaly exacly like the spyder. Same body just with milling and instaid of a striker its a pnumatic hammer. And I know for a fact the timmy bolt fits perfectly in the spyder.

http://users.eastlink.ca/~jayweb/pballgunmod_0009.jpg

[studley192]

Ill give you a few why mags are better. This comes from personal experiance, as my mag was not working one day so i have to use my backup piranha(same as spyder). Oh dont take the mag breaking down as a bad thing, i just put in a level 10 bolt, and the 9 year old piston need to be changed. See how long these things last?! amazing. but anyway

-Kickback-

Personally, i hate it up to a degree. Sypders kick like no other as they are blowback. This can be really annoying, unless you just like the feel for weird reasons. Automags have almost no kickback. The bolts are lighter, and are blowforward.

-Durability-

As i stated before, my mag has been working for 8 years without so much as a new oring. THis year i replaced the orings, and it works better. AGD takes pride, and will fix your gun for free if it has stars. Spyders, on the otherhand, arent so durable. The bolt on mine is starting to show some bad wear, and i oil it every game. They break down far more often then mags, as the parts just arent made to last as long since the guns a somewhat cheap.

- upgradability-

Sure, you can do certain things to any guns, such as slap nitro on, drop forward, expansion, reg, new barrel, new grip frame. But spyders only go so far. Even with these upgrades, its still a spyder. Personally, throwing a electronic trigger on a cheap semi gun with a heavy *** bolt is dumb if you ask me. The gun cant recharge fast enough, the kickback is inhumane, and those e-frames burn out like no other. Now, if you were to put one on a mag, though im not a fan of e-frames, you wont get the horrible kickback, and the recharged rate is faster, especially if you have RT valve, the worlds fastest recharging gun. Also, the level 10 makes it all worth it. Chopping ball will never happen again. I fine tuned mine so sensitive it bounces off paper, but shoots great. Put you finger in the feed on your spyder and shoot it? yea right the bolt will crunch your finger nicely. And paper, yea right.

- longevity -

how long do you plan to stay in paintball? not long? go for the spyder. i wouldnt recommend buying nitro to start off. Thats why i say this. Honestly, mags suck on CO2. or at elast mine does. If you get a mag, do it a favor and use nitro. buying expensice stuff like this, youd better play for a while. if you play long enough with a spyder, sooner or later youll be wanting a new gun. Mags, its a tough call. some people love to keep theirs for as long as they play and just trick it out. thats what i plan to do. that or just buying a emag.


also, imo mags are a lot smaller and compact than a lot of other guns. You cna get a micromag body and crunch it even smaller. With the new x-valves being aluminum, youll have a damn light gun too. if you have to have co2, id go for the spyder though.

[kenndogg]

I voted for the spyder. After all these years my tricked out spyder is still going strong.:)

[team_heretix_trey]

I voted for a Spyder just to go against the crowd :p

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I've owned both. I love both. My Spyder was one of the originals. I had it tricked out to the point that it could keep up with anything on the field at the time. Why did I buy the 'Mag? I shot one. Less kickback, higher quality construction, less maintenance, and higher level of performance. The only problem that my 'Mag has ever had with chopping is the cheap paint I put through it. As for buying a nitro tank for your Spyder, if you want to, do it. Don't listen to anyone but yourself when it comes to upgrades. A nitro tank will be handy when you upgrade to the 'Mag later. :p

[jewie27]

This is why.............. and it's only the beginning.

[Ginjiroku]

Originally posted by Morfesto
The Imagine is a great marker. You should try giving it some upgrades like a new barrel and a regulator befor you go off and get a new marker. Its not the marker its the player. All you need is a good paint to barrel match.

Once your Imagine is tricked out then it would be time to conside moving on to somthing new you can trick out :D .
by the time he saves up the money(which he probobly could buy a mag with) the marker will have fallen apart.

[Big_Chops]

mags are the most reliabe gun in the WORLD (no joke) and spyders = pooo poo:D

[jewie27]

I agree, my 3 year old Spyder TL is still running well; but I have a Mag too and i'll never give it up!

[deathstalker]

The only reason my current Spyder is not my primary marker is because if it was, I would never have a chance to use all the other markers I've bought. It has never once gone down on me on the field, something I can't say about my 'Mag. It's just as consistent as everything else I've owned, which I chalk up to a quality air system and quality paint.

The problem with posting topics such as this is you get ignorant fanboys from both sides of the fence acting like they're experts. ALL markers have their shortcomings. To choose the marker that's best for you (or your friend), you need to list the pros and cons of each and compare them to the features you think are important.

[Evil1]

I have been using nothing but AGD guns since 1995 w/ no problems unless I've caused them.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

deathstalker - you need to understand that some of us are still stupid idiotic youngens

take me as an example :)

back on topic
i have tried the imagine and it isn't all that bad. it's a decent beginner marker which is somewhat durable. the only thing that is sorta bad is that you need a vertical elbow for it.

Mag - i would definately get this over the spyder just because it is more durable, will work if you toss it into...well...we all know which ocean i'm gonna chuck the gun into, and once you grow old and fat the gun will still be around. Plus there are many upgrades for the mag(lvl10, ule trigger, ule body, intelliframe, z and y grip, etc.)

[jewie27]

[i]the most stupidest thing :( :D [/B]

that is more stupider. LOL *spell check*

[Jdogg]

there is NO marker out there better than a mag.

look at all the facts it has been proven. and it stupid to even compare a spyder to a mag. that is rec compared to tourny grade. mags have all the BA upgrades and you know what they say. once you go mag... you NEVER look back!!!

[Evil1]

Well said, JDogg!

[Evil1]

One other thing I forgot to mention about mags is that unlike most blowback guns, is that mags being blow forward action tend to beat up their internals less. Even an old mistreated mag usually doesn't look to bad inside whereas a spyder or spyder clone usually has sheared o rings, worn springs, worn bolts. What I am getting at is mags usually wear themselves in and get smoother and more consistent w/ age as long as they are maintained well and a blowback type gun usually wears itself out and needs to be rebuilt in a quarter of the time it takes a well maintained mag to wear out.

[DeeEight]

The most fundamental reason I can think of is while spyder's are available with a regulator to reduce hotshots, if you ever read the manual, let alone examined the regulator design, you'd realize its not very consistent, nor is the gun really designed for LP operation out of the box. They've used the same reg design since the shutter and that one called for
setting the output pressure between 600 and 700psi. The Automag classic's AIR valve runs about 400-450psi as I recall. Needless to say, automags are essentially LP guns while spyders are not (even though they try and pretend they are with so called LP chambers and regulators included with the guns).

The AIR valve (and many other regs like the Pure Energy secondary regs) use an adjustable spring-preload to adjust the gas output pressure. This in turn adjusts the velocity of the gun on automags but in general, this is a pretty accurate and consitent way to do a regulator. The regs that Kingman sells (and the 32 degree guns use the same reg design, as do many other made-in-taiwan guns), uses a fixed spring with an side-gas tap with a set-screw that limits the gas flow thru reg (much the same way as cheap regs work on air compressors). Its not very consistent for shot to shot performance though because the force of the spring remains constant (just like the valve spring in the gun), and only the volume of gas flowing into the regulator is being adjusted.

Essentially its cost cutting moves and design short cuts like this that are why you can't really compare a Kingman product to an AGD product.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by Morfesto
The intimidator is a Electro pnumatic blowback. It is basicaly exacly like the spyder. Same body just with milling and instaid of a striker its a pnumatic hammer. And I know for a fact the timmy bolt fits perfectly in the spyder.



Really timmies are even lower tech than the e-bolted M98s (which have a full electronic solenoid and 2-way ram that runs off the low-pressure regulator and doesn't depend on blowback gas at all to recock). They just come with fancy milled bodies and a significant price hike.

[Recon by Fire]

Of course the Mag is all around better than the Spyder, but in defense of the Spyders:

Not every Spyder is a piece of semi-reliable entry level marker. I used to own a Spyder AMG and I must say it was rather well performing straight out of the box! High pressure Spyder? Wrong! This thing ran beautifuly at 300 psi straight out of the box and very efficient on air consumption. The stock reg was never more than +/- 7 FPS at the chrono. The AMG would even continue to run with only one o-ring left intact! Not too shabby for a marker that can be bought for under $200 new.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by Recon by Fire
Of course the Mag is all around better than the Spyder, but in defense of the Spyders:

Not every Spyder is a piece of semi-reliable entry level marker. I used to own a Spyder AMG and I must say it was rather well performing straight out of the box! High pressure Spyder? Wrong! This thing ran beautifuly at 300 psi straight out of the box and very efficient on air consumption. The stock reg was never more than +/- 7 FPS at the chrono. The AMG would even continue to run with only one o-ring left intact! Not too shabby for a marker that can be bought for under $200 new.

+/- 7fps is not very good. A Palmer Stab would be +/- 1fps.

[kenndogg]

Originally posted by DeeEight


+/- 7fps is not very good. A Palmer Stab would be +/- 1fps.

thats good for an out of the box Kingman reg. if you have any clue about Kingman regs, you'll know that for the most part they're crap.

[personman]

A picture's worth 1000 words ;)
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=557044

[Evil1]

That is pretty cool. Isn't that when AGD switched to the carbon fiber frames from the die cast ones?

[jknospe]

It sounds like your friend has just started playing. So far, have there been any problems with his marker? If so, then fix it. Or get it fixed. I don't think changing to an Automag is the answer unless your friend is having constant problems with the marker. Will he be happy with a mechanical trigger? He'll probably want an Emag or Xmag with an electronic trigger. Has he tried any mods or upgrades? How many different markers has he tried? How long has he been playing? Does he really know what he wants? If not, his father maybe right... it's too soon.

My son won his marker at his first game. He was using a rental, when a sponsored team at the game noticed how much fun he was having. They gave him a new Spyder Xtra. He wasn't too impressed with it until we upgraded and did some mods to improve its performance.
My Son's Spyder Xtra (http://home.comcast.net/~jknospe/images/spyder.jpg)
Here is a list of the major improvements:

32 Degrees LCD trigger frame
Trigger mod (shorter pull)
Micro-honed and polished stock barrel
Body and breach honed to remove edges
Palmer Stabilizer (a most for CO2)


I've since offered him to use any one of my other markers (see my sig). I even bought him an Automag, with hopes to upgrade it in the future. But after firing them all a few times, he wants his Spyder back. I gave up and sold it on eBay. He's only been in the game for a year and a half, and not impressed by big price tags or fancy looks. Nor does he understand the difference in the engineering of the markers. On the field, he's more concerned about playing the game rather than the marker.

BTW: you should post this on The Spyder Club (http://www.spyder-club.com/) and SEA (http://www.spyderea.net/) forums. I'm curious what they would say.

[Trina]

I'll admit a Spyder is a great beginner's gun...especially for a child or if you're not sure how long you'll be playing and don't want to invest a lot of money into a gun. When I bought my Spyder AMG LCD about 2 years ago, I spent around $300 for it. I haven't even owned it very long and I'm already tired of it's inconsistency, inaccuracy, and that it's not made as well.

To be quite honest, I'm kinda embarressed shooting it now, as my AO buddies LOVE to make fun of me...hahah! :D ;)

I shot an XMAG at AO SE :eek: and I'm now HOOKED!!! I have never shot such an accurate and comfortable marker! It just was AWESOME!!

So basically I bought one, is my $300 on the Spyder wasted? Not really...it's a good back up gun and it did get me through 2 years only going down just a few times.

I think a gun is a personal preference, so pick the one YOU like :D

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

You really have to decide how far you want to go with your game and what equipment will take you there. If you want to just have fun in the woods with your friends every once in a while, the Spyder may be good enough. If you want to take your game up to higher levels and have a gun that will keep up with you then you should get the Mag. It's really as simple as that.