Cheaters?

[Albinonewt]

Hey guys. I've only been back into paintball for about a year now and I wanted to see how often the rest of you experience cheaters, and to see how comparable it is to my experience.

I play in Eastern PA as often as I can, it's a great field and a lot of fun to play there. They are gigantic! The problem is, they attract a lot of players that cheat, and pretty badly, and the refs tend not to do anything about it.

Now, I've noticed that the majority of the people that cheat come from New York, in the city. I think the reason they cheat is because of the way the refs tend to run the game. Because the fields are so big, it tends to take 10-20 minutes to walk to a field, a few minutes for setup, and then they play 20 minute games (that always take 30 minutes). So I think the reason these guys cheat is because they drove 90 minutes to get to paintball, spent nearly an hour in the staging area (an entirly different story) and then see that we only play 2 games every 90 minutes or so, so they refuse to go out because they want to play and they're tired of waiting. Although I hardly blame them (hell, I don't like waiting to play either)it makes the game rather unenjoyable, if there's always a group that does nothing but cheat.

A couple weeks ago I saw a group of 10 (all with their own low end gear, 98's and the like) and in 8 hours of play not one guy EVER saw the dead zone. They all had paint on them, but they never died.

2 weeks ago there was a guy hiding in the woods, I lit him up really bad, probably 10 balls broke on him that I could see. Then he ran to the back and disappeared. 1 minute later he was back, so i killed him again, then he ran back. The whole time i was looking for a ref, but these fields are HUGE! The third time he came back I had a buddy with me, and I lit this guy up like you couldn't believe. My buddy actually took my gun and pointed it down to make me stop. Then the guy just walked back into the woods. He came at us a fourth time and I just ignored him and went to the other flank and killed a bunch of his non-cheating teammates (they didn't come with him). A few minutes of that go by and I get shot in the back by that guy. In the deadzone he is covered with paint bragging about how he killed me and half my team. I wanted to slug him. Instead, I just rinsed and repeated the next game. He may have gotten me out twice, but I don't envy his bruises and welts...

[Kevmaster]

In rec ball, I play at a smaller local field where I know everyone. Most games are 3v3 speedball...maybe 5v5. I've never experienced cheating there. Hell, most of the time there is no ref on the feild...
now, occasionally, we don't play paintball...we play PAINballl...but thats only when Rasheed Wallace (Yes, te NBA player) comes to the field. That entails playing till you WANT to go out...no matter how shot up you are.


now, the tournies are a whole different game. Cheating is rampant. its sad to see it like that. Nobody comes CLOSE to policing thmeselves...and for what...a $500 prize that BARELY covers their entry and paint? bogus....

[Wickster]

Albinonewt,

Sounds like you play at Skirmish, yes?

I used to judge there about 10 years ago, and at that time the judging was pretty good. The fields are huge, so the refs can't be everywhere. I know because I was always running my *** off all over the field to do paint checks (I can still hear "CHECK HIM REF!!!! in my sleep). Why didn't you approach one fo the refs after the game? If he had that much paint on him from one game, I'm sure the ref would know there was a problem.

When I judged at Skirmish, there were 2 judges per field and one was usually on one side (near one flag station) and one on the other. We also followed the general action on the field by hearing where it was. There should have been a ref around somewhere for you to find.

If they wouldn't do something about a constant cheater (which you didn't give them the opportunity to do), ask to be switched to another field/group. There was always a huge number of groups playing there, usually including more than one field (group) of walk-ons.

As a side note, I also found the players from NYC to be more difficult to deal with. One swung the tank end of his marker at my head after I called him out for the game for continually playing with his goggles off. (I kicked him off the field for that :eek: )

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Albinonewt

2 weeks ago there was a guy hiding in the woods, I lit him up really bad, probably 10 balls broke on him that I could see. Then he ran to the back and disappeared. 1 minute later he was back, so i killed him again, then he ran back. The whole time i was looking for a ref, but these fields are HUGE! The third time he came back I had a buddy with me, and I lit this guy up like you couldn't believe. My buddy actually took my gun and pointed it down to make me stop. Then the guy just walked back into the woods. He came at us a fourth time and I just ignored him and went to the other flank and killed a bunch of his non-cheating teammates (they didn't come with him). A few minutes of that go by and I get shot in the back by that guy. In the deadzone he is covered with paint bragging about how he killed me and half my team. I wanted to slug him. Instead, I just rinsed and repeated the next game. He may have gotten me out twice, but I don't envy his bruises and welts...

Man, if someone did that to me I'd throw down my marker, run over there, kick him in the stones, and give him and uppercut to the chin. Then I'd pull out my Bowie knife and tell him if he ever did that to me again I'd cut him from stem to stern! The bastard!

FatMan

[Tack]

At my local field most of the regulars have kicked out the bad apples. There used to be a small number of players who would not accept that they were eliminated by someone else, no matter what skill level the other player was at. These players eventually got sick of being back shot by their own team mates while the reff would stand beside them and call them out for it. I know, I was one of the reffs, or one of the teammates that would shoot them. I can't stand cheaters. I don't like it in high competition tourney play, but to do it just to be a prick during rec play is completely stupid.

I also play big game/scenario games. I have ran into a lot of problems when I travel to some of the bigger events. My last experience was D-Day OK. This past June. I was trading shots with a German player across an open field. I saw three balls fly in on him. One of which broke on his goggles. He ducked behind a tree and then popped back out again with a nice little blue smear across his lenses but continued shooting. I gogged him again, Same result. Needless to say after I finally got fed up with the whole situation and decided I was too mad to even want to play anymore, I left the field and found out that most of the allied players were complaining about the same things. I'm sure there were Allies that did the same thing (So German players can't counter that all the Allies are perfect), but being on the Allied side I heard a lot of things. Also from personal experience I know that one of the German tanks was shooting very hot. It was caught later on in the day and chronoed at about 450 or so. This tank came rolling through one of our positions and lit us all up. I was shot in the back through a bunch of brush from about 60 feet away and the hit still sent me falling forward. Once I examined the hit I realized just how hot the gun was. I don't bruise very easily, but this shot (again from 60+ feet away through brush, almost ripped a hole in my shirt and left me with a bloody whelp that throbbed for the rest of the day, and I could barely lay on my left side for several days afterwards because it was so sore.

I guess the moral of this is, unfortunately no matter how honest you play, no matter how well you think the reffing is, and no matter where you play you will always run into cheaters. What to do about it? God knows, but try to stay away from them if possible. I attended the last two D-Days and I will not attend another one. Cheating was only one of the problems, however it was a very big one. The rest is not pertinent to this thread so I will leave it at that.

[Z-man]

Defiantly sounds like those "l33t n00bz" online who cheat and call themselves godly (oh how I wish for a paintgun then).

Still I think you have it right. That is a huge field and a long game time so I can see how if you got shot once certain unsavory people might want to stay in.

At the place I ref and play at, the fields are very small (3 acres or less) and the games go NO more than 12 minutes. Keeps the dead players happy and makes everyone push that much more due to the time limit.

[Albinonewt]

Wickstar:

Yeah, it was at Skirmish. And I did tell the one of the refs after the game (a guy I know fairly well) and he concurred that there was cheating, but simply that he couldn't be everywhere to catch it all.

The main problem I have with their refs is poor time management skills (although this guy was one of the really good ones). And the cheating also gives me headache.

[Miscue]

Everyone should have to wear white cotton shirts, pants, and mittens. :p

I hate cheaters. There should be a high penalty... like chopping off appendages.

It just makes it pointless to even bother playing. I don't buy great gear, get good paint, and try to stay in decent shape... so that people can steal what time and effort I've put in on and off the field.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Miscue
Everyone should have to wear white cotton shirts, pants, and mittens. :p

I hate cheaters. There should be a high penalty... like chopping off appendages.

It just makes it pointless to even bother playing. I don't buy great gear, get good paint, and try to stay in decent shape... so that people can steal what time and effort I've put in on and off the field.

Yeah, everything he said (except staying in shape)

[Recon by Fire]

Cheating sucks! I have seen refs re-insert players after they were eliminated early in the game. Wipe 'em off and return them for those big games, long walks, etc...

[adam shannon]

i play with alot of newbs that cheat...when playing against known cheaters i just shoot them more...and just keep shooting till the welts take their toll. i bunkered a kid who had retreated to wipe my first shots. i came around and lit him up while he was wiping in the bunker.

if people are gonna cheat..either report them to the refs/field owner/field manager...or just play for welts not eliminations.

[Crazy]

sounds like a lot of recball complaints... when you play tourny ball you just learn to accept it and play on.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Miscue
Everyone should have to wear white cotton shirts, pants, and mittens. :p

I hate cheaters. There should be a high penalty... like chopping off appendages.

It just makes it pointless to even bother playing. I don't buy great gear, get good paint, and try to stay in decent shape... so that people can steal what time and effort I've put in on and off the field.

Miscue, I like the way you think! I'm thinking a finger for playing on, a toe for calling a paintcheck when you KNOW you are out, a hand for wiping ... oh the possibilities!

I'll be on the sidelines after the game with my machette!

FatMan

[hitech]

I run into the big rec ball field, not enough refs to cover it also. When one of us is eliminated (the guys I play paintball with) and suspect the other guys are playing quite straight up we "hang out" near them on our way out. This works best of cource if you can be out of bounds while you hang out. You can still check players are you walk out. I've been amazed how much better my aim gets when one of my friedns is watching. ;)

[FatMan]

I've never run into much cheating in recball - mostly when I do its dweebs that don't matter anyway and if they wipe, I just light 'em up (I normally try not to hit rec'ers more than once or twice). They eventually decide to give up. Most of the serious players I have had chance to play recball with see no reason to cheat, and will happily call themselves out.

Not so in a tourney. Not only have I seen cheating in a tourneys, but a REAL favorite is the accuse OTHERS of cheating - sometimes even AFTER the thing is over and it doesn't matter any more.

One thing I've noticed is that EVERYONE on the sidelines is an expert and they love to holler at the refs and tell them so-and-so is out. When I run the field, I make it clear I penalize for outside interference - whether it is for good or naught. The refs will call them game, they might make some good calls, they might make some bad - its part of the game. Have you ever watched major league baseball? ever seen a bad call. Well, you see 'em on the paintball field too. Thing is, not all "bad" calls are bad - sometimes if you are down on the field you have a better look at it. If refs work well in teams, there is more than one pair of eyes. Just 'cause you don't agree with the ref, doesn't mean he's cheating!

Anyway, I think the bigger question is why can't we get the serious players - who KNOW how to play clean - to play clean in a tourney? I'm not talking about missing a hit on the toe, I mean the obvious playing on and things like that.

FatMan

[PRPB]

Yeah, it was at Skirmish. And I did tell the one of the refs after the game (a guy I know fairly well) and he concurred that there was cheating, but simply that he couldn't be everywhere to catch it all.

The main problem I have with their refs is poor time management skills (although this guy was one of the really good ones). And the cheating also gives me headache.

Yeah every time I go to skirmish I see a lot of cheaters. Have you ever been to splatters a Jack frost mountain. It's not as big, but the place it great. Refs are a hell of a lot better and not as many cheaters.

http://www.jfbb.com/

[spider54]

well fatman.... unfortunately in tourney ball it is gettin to the point were u have to cheat to compete with the other teams.... and in tourneys the only teams that i really see call themselves out r the teams newer into tourneys.... its a joy to ref but after 1 or 2 more tourneys they realize that they rnt doin so well due to the fact that most the other teams r gettin double lives or something of the sort.... its only competitive

[rathbaster]

I've never experienced a level of cheating that you describe Albinonewt. If I did, I'd find another field to play at. Thats real world competition. (I think they call that market forces or some such thing.)

There's a field a few miles from my house which has had a horrible rep for many years for cheating, poor reffing, outrageous prices. I refused to ever play there. (It's under new management and has a new name so we'll see how it's changed.)

I cannot speak for tourney play as I have never played in a toruney or witnessed one. If wiping and cheating is that rampant that it's considered a "competative edge", I have no desire to.

[RusskiX]

I was very disappointed when my home field announced this year that the refs wont be responding to paintchecks anymore. When ever they announce this at the safety briefing I cringe since it is an open invitation for the wipers.

But to the larger point, is a good field a result of strict reffing or regular players who self-police? So far this year the refs have been pretty absent on my field, but I haven't seen a HUGE increase in cheating. There is always one person who wipes, but my friends and regulars tend to single this person out and get on their case on & off the field til he changes his ways or leaves.

So whats more important... refs or stand up regulars?

[Recon by Fire]

Stand up players :)

[845]

Rec ball cheaters are worse than TWiBs. You wanna see cheating play a local tourny. I have played some where you have to put 5 balls on a guy to make sure he goes out. Especially if you got bias refs going on. When you start playing local tournies you get to see the whole new perspective on how low some people are in the sport.

[adam shannon]

my local field may be behind the times with only 1 speedball field and 1 sup air they only set up a couple times a year...the rest woods. and their tourneys get maybe 10 teams for 3 and 5 man...but having filmed a couple of those for them the reffing was the only thing that was any good. they had at least 1 ref per player, and refs on each deadbox, start box, and the flag. there were more refs on the field than players.

ive heard enough nightmare stories about tourney reffing im actually eager to see the games at iao just to hopefully document some good wholesome PB cheating firsthand.

[845]

Actually at the IAO they seem to do a good job with cheating like wiping(or maybe the players are better at it :rolleyes: ) you will only really see playing on. They better if I am paying $100 a case of Hellfire.

[AutomagRT1483]

At Blackrain Paintball here in Racine there is a lot of cheating going on. Wiping all over the place. We were in a 3-man tourney back in May at this place and a player, which was on the home team i might add, clearly wiped. Musta been like ten people that saw it including the ref. But the ref was also part of the home team so we got screwed outta 1st. Took 3rd due to the fact that they switched the last game around on us so instead of playing the home team we played some other one. To much politics going on in that place for my liking. They are supposedly having a 5-man here in the next couple weeks, but I am seriously considering boycotting it cause of their lack of presenting a good and fair for a players tournament.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by RusskiX
So whats more important... refs or stand up regulars?

At a field like Skirmish, where there can be up to (or more) then a thousand rentals in a day I'd say the refs are what's important. Even though there are plenty of regulars that are fair and understand the proper way to play they are almost always outnumbered by 10:1 or more. So in the case of places with high rates of first time or occasional players I'd say refs are more important.

But on a smaller field where each week its the same 50 people that play, I'd say the players are what's important.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by spider54
well fatman.... unfortunately in tourney ball it is gettin to the point were u have to cheat to compete with the other teams.... and in tourneys the only teams that i really see call themselves out r the teams newer into tourneys.... its a joy to ref but after 1 or 2 more tourneys they realize that they rnt doin so well due to the fact that most the other teams r gettin double lives or something of the sort.... its only competitive

I don't accept that explanation as a valid excuse. That may be why they claim to be doing it, but it does not change the fact that they are cheating.

Good reffing prevents this - especially in local tourneys. Unfortunately local tourneys are often reffed by local players who don't know how to ref. I've played in tourneys where refs stand around the sides and move out of the way when fire comes close. That's not reffing!

FatMan

[Lohman446]

Geez guys, that must just suck.

I play at two fields - Colors in Fremont often - most of the players there I see nearly every week, and calling each other out or yourself when hit is common - I am very happy.

I also play at Excalibur in Battle Creek in their big games. I am amazed at the amount of players who will ask for paintchecks - and get them from refs or other players. The other time I was down there I was pinned in a bunker close to the fort - I had dove in and thought I might be hit in the pack (now theres about 20 feet from my bunker to the fort). I called for a paintcheck, no ref - the players (ten or so) on my side of the fort - called a pause in action so one could come out and check - and they, as well as the three man team I was with, all paused for that - they then gave me the chance to surrender before we restarted - I declined and got flanked - but I am amazed at the sportsmanship/honesty in paintball in general on a very regular basis.

[goat]

I reff some weekends and we have one or two Players who come down that regularly cause us problems, there is nothing more frustrating for a person who plays paintball to reff and catch someone cheating.....because you have to be diplomatic about it.
then I get the chance to play every now and then, if the players mentioned are on the field I make it a point to be the one who sends them walking, GOGGLE SHOTS!!! thats the key! if you cant see you cant run, and then what are they gonna do...cheat when its a reff's paint on them?? lol.

goat

[Paintmonkey]

Originally posted by Crazy
sounds like a lot of recball complaints... when you play tourny ball you just learn to accept it and play on.


That's just crazy. You should NEVER accept cheating as part of the sport. It's INSANE for you even to think like that. Cheating is not going to become part of the sport. SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE CHEATER...

If you are out then get your *** out, you are hit, you are out, even if no one sees it...and if you think it's ok to cheat, then I hope you and I never have to play together.

[snoogans]

The refs at my field bust cheaters faster than u can say "pie revolution!" :D

[AutomagRT1483]

PIE REVOLUTION!!!!:eek: :D There more cheaters have been busted.:p ;)

[Crazy]

Originally posted by Paintmonkey



That's just crazy. You should NEVER accept cheating as part of the sport. It's INSANE for you even to think like that. Cheating is not going to become part of the sport. SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE CHEATER...

If you are out then get your *** out, you are hit, you are out, even if no one sees it...and if you think it's ok to cheat, then I hope you and I never have to play together.

I'll just make an assumption and assume you play recball :rolleyes:

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by Crazy


I'll just make an assumption and assume you play recball :rolleyes: LOL, just what I was thinking when I read his post.

I really don't see a lot of cheating down here. The last local tourney I watched they had plenty of refs both on the field and on the sidelines, just an outstanding job on the fields part. I knew two of the kids on the team that placed last, and despite their disappointment even they were happy with how it was reffed.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Originally posted by spider54
well fatman.... unfortunately in tourney ball it is gettin to the point were u have to cheat to compete with the other teams.... and in tourneys the only teams that i really see call themselves out r the teams newer into tourneys.... its a joy to ref but after 1 or 2 more tourneys they realize that they rnt doin so well due to the fact that most the other teams r gettin double lives or something of the sort.... its only competitive

Still doesn't make it right, though. I hate the "everone is doing it, so we will too" defense. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's all I've got to say.

[Paintmonkey]

Yes I do play recball.

So you are saying it's ok to cheat as long as you are doing it for money or something like that?

Because I play recball does that mean I don't understand why a person would cheat.

Cheating is cheating folks, and it's just that, it's being dishonest. What is left when honor is gone?

And I don't understand why you people laugh and say "I assume you play recball."

The most dishonest, loud mouthed and worst players I've played with have always been High tech gun toting, jersey wearing speedball players.

[Ov3rmind]

Paintmonkey, we did not say is ok, but at this point it is part of our sport. It's integrated into the tourney scene, and there's almost no escaping it. We laughed, because at a recball point of view you don't exactly get this yet.

BTW, I have dealt with both rec play players and tourney players that are total jerks.

[Paintmonkey]

I know that cheating is a big part of the sport, but it shouldnt have to be. I've played agaisnt cheaters before (mainly the speedball crowd). My take is to never accept it as part of the game.

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

The only time I ever whipe/have whipped, is when the freaking retarded ref's make the teams so unbelivably unfair. As in like when they let the 'bad asses' pick the teams, and all they do is pic the people with cool looking guns, I usually offer to be on the side with all the rentals cause the teams get so unfair

[Crazy]

ok, go to a tourny and then come back.. untill then i'm not gonna argue.. It's like arguing with a kid about why humans kill other humans.. they just can't comprehend why.

[Paintmonkey]

Yea I mean I know why people cheat, makes perfect sense. I may not fully know why people cheat, just like the little kid you talked about. But you know, you might not be able to explain why people kill, but you still know that it is wrong...

That's all I'm saying.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

So, now that we don't accept that people cheat we're equivalent to little children or imbeciles? I rather resent that. Don't cheat and get caught on my field. You won't like it. You won't do it again either.

[Crazy]

woa there jimmy, we have an internet hardass here.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind
Paintmonkey, we did not say is ok, but at this point it is part of our sport. It's integrated into the tourney scene, and there's almost no escaping it. We laughed, because at a recball point of view you don't exactly get this yet.

BTW, I have dealt with both rec play players and tourney players that are total jerks.

WOAH dude, that is way out in foul territory! Integrated? No way!


[B}
I'll just make an assumption and assume you play recball

ok, go to a tourny and then come back.. untill then i'm not gonna argue.. It's like arguing with a kid about why humans kill other humans.. they just can't comprehend why.
[/B]

Sorry, been there, done that. Cheaters are cheaters - with all of the qualifications and duies owed therein. Cheating in paintball is NO WAY the equivalent of a foul in basketball, or a penalty in football. Its low, and those who engage in it have no business on the course - I don't care WHAT "the other guys are doing." Does it go on, a lot? Yes it does. Does that in ANY way make it "a part of the game?" Hell no!

What really shocks me though, is the attitude. The "well I play in tournaments, and I've seen the cheating that goes on up there so I know its part of the game" kind of attitude. It makes me sick to think that those players who would push themselves to a level of play called for in tournaments would accept that as "part of the game."

All I can say is I sure as heck hope YOU guys don't cheat - in a tournament or not!

FatMan

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I'm with the FatMan.........

[Crazy]

how about this situation... you shoot a guy, he doesn't go out. blatantly wipes it, like on the hopper or mask even. So your like, ok, i'll go do him, make sure he goes out. On the way there, your a couple feet from the bunker, and you take one while your running. Are you all saying that you would stop right there, and be like, good shot, and skip to the dead box? hell no, I'd run through and shoot him, at least make them pull both of us.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

If I'm hit and it broke, I walk off the field. Am I upset that the other player didn't do the same? Yes, I am. I would inform one of the refs of what went on and if that got nothing, I would take it higher after that. MY honor is more important to me than his. I won't compromise it.

[Crazy]

o well, it seems like we all have our own opinions here, and nothing is going to change it.. so just move along.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I think I agree with that. No hard feelings I hope. Cheating gets under my skin.

[Crazy]

not at all, we all play the way we feel the game should be played.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by LoveMyMagMoreThanYou
If I'm hit and it broke, I walk off the field. Am I upset that the other player didn't do the same? Yes, I am. I would inform one of the refs of what went on and if that got nothing, I would take it higher after that. MY honor is more important to me than his. I won't compromise it.

Gotta agree here. I've see this approach win more in the long run. Its like, you might lose the game, but if you try to "cheat back" then you become a cheater, everybody knows it, and so do you.

FatMan

[Evil Bob]

Everyone has their "cheating" threshold in which they will or won't cross the line...

For some, that line is variable and defined differently moment to moment, for others it's fixed.

Whether is it the end goal of a big cash prize or bragging rights or they're pissed off that everyone else is cheating, there comes a point where people make a conscious decision to cross the line.

Just like everything else in life, everyone has a different level of tolerance...

Some cheat openly either out of arrogance or stupidity because of some pathetic excuse along the lines of "no way, you couldn't have hit possibly hit me"...
Some practice cheating using "we're willing to take any means necessary to win" as their mantra...
Some cheat because everyone else does and they feel left out...
Some don't cheat and question their decision to not cheat every time they notice someone cheat and get away with it...
Some don't cheat ever, openly exclaiming a higher moral path...
and some simply don't cheat and go on about their lives quietly...

So which category do you fall into?

I don't cheat, period, I don't brag about it either, I don't call others on it, I don't get terribly upset if someone cheats and wins, I could care less.

Players who rely upon cheating to win will eventually earn themselves a reputation for cheating, it's an end in and of itself, eventually people will stop playing with or against them.

I look at it this way:

"I shot you once, I can easily shoot you again, how many times do you want to get shot before you finally call yourself out?"

If you don't want to go out under your own power, I'm going to make it painful for you to remain in the game, how many hits on the same location does it take before your hand/arm/head/shoulder/back is in so much pain that you can't continue to play? I usually shoot at fleshier parts first so it doesn't hurt the other player as much (especially in recball), but if they don't want to go out, I start aiming for the more painful ones. Hey, if you want to get beat up in game, go for it, I'm more then happy to keep pounding on your hide. If your team wins, kudos for you, I'm happy for you.

-Evil Bob