!!!MOVE OVER X-MAG 45BPS ... but wait FROM A COCKER!!! [Archive]

*ArKfEaR*

07-11-2003, 03:58 AM

Someone test it and see if the cps they are claiming is right. Oh jack and coke...

Wow is all i can say:

Main page.
http://members.cox.net/pgipaintguns/page8.htm

45 CPS (http://members.cox.net/ah100/Isis45bpsJul9_03.MOV)

36 CPS (http://members.cox.net/ah100/Osiris36bpsJul9_03.MOV)

20 BPS with Halo (http://members.cox.net/ah100/Osiris20bpsJul9_03.MOV)

20 BPS WITH REGULAR VL200!!! NO CHOPS or BREAKS (http://members.cox.net/ah100/OsirisVL200Jul9_03.MOV)

All i can say is this gun looks awesome. Im really lookin foward to the final release cause if i ever plan on getting another gun it will either be this or the 03 shocker.

PS: If this has been posted before sorry im not a forum gnome.

*ArKfEaR*

07-11-2003, 04:07 AM

Heres the Pbnation thread if you wanna read through...

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268255

Ov3rmind

07-11-2003, 04:22 AM

That's insane, the backblock looks like it just hovers in place.

07-11-2003, 06:42 AM

d) no lug
e) no sear
f) no cocking rod
g) no blow back
h) dual front regulator

can you still call that a cocker?

Animal Mother

07-11-2003, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by gtrsi

can you still call that a cocker?

Well the body is a cocker so I guess they can, lol

makes sense.. if they stuffed that gun in a different body they would have a hard time selling it like the AKA Viking, so they used a cocker body and some other cocker parts and can still call it a cocker.

Albinonewt

07-11-2003, 07:47 AM

Just watching that thing makes me feel dirty.

AzrealDarkmoonZ

07-11-2003, 08:27 AM

I would say it is still a cocker, much more so than their previous try. The Firestorm which looked hideous and I NEVER heard a good review on it.

Although it looks like there is some sort of Pin sticking out the back, more than likely the hammer is hit by a ram that sits where the velocity adjuster used to be. My question is where is the other solenoid?

Az

Twisted Greed

07-11-2003, 09:21 AM

See the tray right above the trigger frames, that is where the second solenoid is.

adam shannon

07-11-2003, 12:18 PM

the first marker didnt look like it was fully cycling till the end of the video..you can see at the end the bolt is going all the way back...for the fist part of the vid it was only half cocking.

anything over 25 pbs is a moot point...what can feed it reliably? until hopper technology passes 20-25 bps all you have is a video of a really fancy noise maker.

sorta like putting a jet engine on a motorcycle to go 500 mph...sure you can do it...but nobody can ride it, so whats the point besides braging rights.

Dayspring

07-11-2003, 12:21 PM

Not even that, but don't forget that NO valve out there besides the RT valve can do a FULL charged shot after 20+bps. Sure, the Timmy or whatever can hit a nice ROF. But their shot to shot consistency and velocity will be all over the place.

RT valve is STILL king.

Jack & Coke

07-11-2003, 12:34 PM

Jack & Coke

07-11-2003, 12:39 PM

http://members.cox.net/pgipaintguns/markers/OsirisJuly1_1.jpg

http://members.cox.net/pgipaintguns/markers/OsirisJuly1_4.jpg

Albinonewt

07-11-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by adam shannon
sorta like putting a jet engine on a motorcycle to go 500 mph...sure you can do it...but nobody can ride it, so whats the point besides braging rights.

When did bragging rights STOP being a motive to do something?

AcemanPB

07-11-2003, 12:49 PM

Dayspring

07-11-2003, 12:52 PM

NOT theory. They've measured the recharge rate of the valve itself.

Trust me. RT is king of valves. Has been for a long time and will continue to be.

Originally posted by Jack & Coke

That is all thoery.

I say bench mount it, fire it full-auto with a halo, and observe the trajectory of the paint over an open field - not at 5 feet into a dumpster.

adam shannon

07-11-2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Albinonewt

When did bragging rights STOP being a motive to do something?

when its used in marketing hype to sell products. it doesnt matter if whatever board your selling can do 45 bps if it will never in reality get to go that fast with paint.

kids i play with always ask everybody with a high end gun "how fast does it shoot"...i always tell them "as fast as i pull the trigger, or faster than i can ever shoot it" but it still peeves me that all newbs to the sport who read some of the other message boards care about is ROF. try learning to play instead of buying a high end gun your first week in the sport and trying to hide begind a good marker with no skill. so many of these kids are worthless as players because they never learned to play. the sport is being ruined at its most vulnerable point...newbs...by hype and BS.

this reply sorta has nothing to do with the original thread....but is intended soley as a reply to the quote above. big boys playing with their toys for the sake of doing it is the mother of invention...but i do have a problem when impressionable new players are consumed by stuff they dont really understand to the point when thats what they think the game is about.

Evil Bob

07-11-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted on PBN

we can adjust the range (distance it fires) by changing the on time for the hammer, so on small sup air fields you have a short on time, lower your hammer pressure, and get great air efficency, on longer fields, lenthen the on time, increase your hammer pressure and presto, you have longer range than a normal cocker

The only way to increase shooting distance without involving Magnus effect is to increase the velocity the paintball is traveling at. Increasing hammer pressure means the valve is open longer and more air is used, which results in more pressure being exerted on the ball, which results in higher velocity.

This is true with any marker, the higher you crank the velocity, the farther the ball with travel.

Now the question is "are they able to switch these settings on the fly mid game with this marker?" If so, then it is an illegal mod due to the fact that once the marker has been chronoed and deemed to be shooting at a safe speed, the owner can "increase his hammer pressure" (cheat) and be shooting above the safe legal velocity limits.

-Evil Bob

07-11-2003, 01:36 PM

its just like anything autococker ........Its a retro fit.

I am confused why folks continue to make parts for a poorly engineered gun..... o' to make lots of money!

I still dont think it is an autocoker. Infact if that thing is a cocker then a timmy is just another retro spyder.

*ArKfEaR*

07-11-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Evil Bob

Now the question is "are they able to switch these settings on the fly mid game with this marker?".

-Evil Bob

No if you read on he says that they can adjust that for you at the factory. But the thing is if you have a laptop or computer you can adjust the settings from the there. Also there will be some other settings via an lcd screen, but the more complicated, serious settings will be set through a computer.

Its funny though how alot of you are still claiming the RT as king, well aparently this gun isnt getting too much drop off and the fact is that the RT can cycle fast but there are many others out there too that can do the same if not faster. A cocker is one of the most consistent guns to boot so, suprisingly I dont believe he is getting mad shootdown. The funny thing is though i remember when the guy with that makes those awesome boards for the e-mag and the modified trigger'ed RT posted his videos and some other people with watches. It was the all mighty day for the mag but when someone else can cycle it faster its no biggy, "WHO CARES your NEVER GOING TO NEED TO SHOOT THAT FAST ANYWAY! OR A LOADER THAT CAN SHOOT FOR YOU!" Even though its made by PGI it still looks promising.

Jack and coke analyze the footage man... you do it all the time :D

Evil Bob

07-11-2003, 01:47 PM

Dayspring, I think you misunderstood what Jack & Coke was saying, he was commenting about the above videos of these guys shooting 5 feet into the trashcan instead of on an open field like we've seen the guys from Odessey do with the HALO footage, that's what he's talking about being all theory and the comment about possibly shootdown.

-Evil Bob

lack of grace

07-11-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Dayspring
NOT theory. They've measured the recharge rate of the valve itself.

Trust me. RT is king of valves. Has been for a long time and will continue to be.

Man,

It's very bullheaded to think that someone cannot develop something faster.

Eventually everything gets bested.

This is brand new...there has been no legit scientific comparison.

Dayspring

07-11-2003, 02:07 PM

RT Valve has been out for over 3 years. Hasn't been bested yet.

Originally posted by lack of grace

Man,

It's very bullheaded to think that someone cannot develop something faster.

Eventually everything gets bested.

This is brand new...there has been no legit scientific comparison.

wyn1370

07-11-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by lack of grace

Man,

It's very bullheaded to think that someone cannot develop something faster.

Eventually everything gets bested.

This is brand new...there has been no legit scientific comparison.
You're fighting a loosing battle trying to get the zealots to think that something may be better than AGD.
One thing everyone forgets to mention is that until lvl 10 the retro was useless to a greater majority of the paintball world.

XVFrontplayer

07-11-2003, 02:20 PM

HEY DAYSPRING GOOD BURN.

:D

BUT EVENTUALLY GUNS WILL GET FASTER THAN THE RT. THEN TK WILL INVENT AN EVEN FASTER RT. BAM

Webmaster

07-11-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Albinonewt

When did bragging rights STOP being a motive to do something?

Originally posted by adam shannon
when its used in marketing hype to sell products. it doesnt matter if whatever board your selling can do 45 bps if it will never in reality get to go that fast with paint.

Ho Ho! I have to point out how AGD and thier fans have been pumping out the "26bps" figure for the RT valve for years! Which is as useless of a statistic in the real world as any number.

The fact that the RT charges super fast IS its real performance boon.

I need to watch the videos - but come on kids - every year there is going to be new and better things. Do you really think AGD can make the X-Mag and kick back and say "we're done! - that should tide them over for the next 10 years!".

AGD - and every other company who wishes to remain competative - will have to continue to refine thier product and R&D new solutions.

BTW - isnt this by the same people that made the FirsStorm? Because that didnt work out so well. Time will tell if this will be a viable force - or just a nice performing prototype.

Sparks

07-11-2003, 02:34 PM

45BPS, that's about 22MS for every shot. I'm not sure what the minimum load time for a paintball is, but I believe it's something on the level of 15MS. Now, if the gun can move the bolt forward, fire the ball, and retract within 7MS, then more power to them.

The RT valve, IIRC, can cycle 30bps and still have enough bolt open time to load a ball. Those numbers are probably slightly off, but I'm not sure that any gun can cycle at 45BPS and have enough bolt open time to load a paintball.

I'm skeptical. We'll see how this pans out.

FalconGuy016

07-11-2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Sparks
45BPS, that's about 22MS for every shot. I'm not sure what the minimum load time for a paintball is, but I believe it's something on the level of 15MS. Now, if the gun can move the bolt forward, fire the ball, and retract within 7MS, then more power to them.

The RT valve, IIRC, can cycle 30bps and still have enough bolt open time to load a ball. Those numbers are probably slightly off, but I'm not sure that any gun can cycle at 45BPS and have enough bolt open time to load a paintball.

I'm skeptical. We'll see how this pans out.

Just wondering, is it 15 ms to fall in regular or with a HALO?

_Spork_1

07-11-2003, 04:51 PM

what i would like to know is why on the 36 cps is why is the back block slowly going down after each "shot"(like we can tell when a new shot is happening)

could that be a sighn of shootdown?...

and in jacks picture if you look in the picture you can see some paint in it, hmmmmm......

the 26 cps no shoot down mag thing is an old argument.

yes the mag can do that, amazing, to me that isn't a reason to buy a mag.

Jack & Coke

07-11-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*

Jack and coke analyze the footage man... you do it all the time :D

You'll have to wait until tonight... you guys do know I have a day job right??? ;)

*ArKfEaR*

07-11-2003, 04:59 PM

no it looks like gelatin build up not actual paint. Everyone has it after shooting alot of paint, but imagine after a bunch of 20 BPS tests...

Just i woulda cleaned out the barrel before i posted up pics anyway.

Infection5

07-11-2003, 05:08 PM

Doc Nickel

07-11-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Dayspring
Not even that, but don't forget that NO valve out there besides the RT valve can do a FULL charged shot after 20+bps. Sure, the Timmy or whatever can hit a nice ROF. But their shot to shot consistency and velocity will be all over the place.

RT valve is STILL king.

No, you have that wrong.

When the RT came out, it was the only regulator that could recharge that fast.

However, as far as a 'Cocker is concerned, who says you need a reg? Plug a tank of CO2 in there, straight from the bottle, and the only restriction to "recharge" rates would be the physical size of the air passages- which, I don't need to say, are far larger than the passages through most regulators- including the RT.

That would mean that the real, physical limit to a 'Cocker valve would be how fast it can open and close. I'd guess- and it's only a guess- that with 800 psi behind it (normal unregged CO2) it can open and close in less than 5 ms.

The RT reg is still the documented king, but there are almost certainly faster valves.

Doc.

Daroy99

07-11-2003, 05:42 PM

I don't see the reason in arguing over such high balls per second. I mean, seriously, a gun is a gun, and who really needs to fire that fast? I hold my own with 8bps....and its fine.:confused:

rx2

07-11-2003, 06:39 PM

From the first clip, which claims 45 cycles without paint, I counted 37 cycles in one second. However, I accidentaly copied my Photoshop screen instead of pasting my Pro Tools screen-shot into Photoshop, so I don't have the image. However, I can say without a doubt that it was at 37 cycles in the first clip. There may have been a point in which it was a little higher, or lower, but the maximum number of cycles in one second was 37.

I should note that the sound quality is horrid. Please, do not record clips in warehouses, parking lots between buidlings, or in dumpsters! It creates an echo that makes it harder to find the real cycles. In fact, to the untrained ear, it is sort of like cheating, as it makes the marker sound faster (like a guitarist using delay).

07-11-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Doc Nickel

The RT reg is still the documented king, but there are almost certainly faster valves.

Doc.

:eek: :D :cool:

Jack & Coke

07-12-2003, 12:50 AM

45? :confused:

Where's the beef?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/photos/beef22.jpg

Sure 37 is FAST! But what's with the false claims of 45?

lack of grace

07-12-2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Dayspring
RT Valve has been out for over 3 years. Hasn't been bested yet.

This is coming from one that thinks i am a metal head cause i have tattoos.

You are likely the biggest moron ive ever met...:D :D :D

Dayspring

07-12-2003, 01:02 AM

Um... I met you ONCE. And talked to you even less than that. Thought you were a nice guy. Liked your Eblade. But calling me a moron? Tsk tsk. That's poor form.

Originally posted by lack of grace

This is coming from one that thinks i am a metal head cause i have tattoos.

You are likely the biggest moron ive ever met...:D :D :D

lack of grace

07-12-2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Dayspring
Um... I met you ONCE. And talked to you even less than that. Thought you were a nice guy. Liked your Eblade. But calling me a moron? Tsk tsk. That's poor form.

speaking my mind is poor form on AO? Because I don't have 5000 posts????

Back to the point.....You're a moron for thinking nothing will ever be released that is faster than a retro valve. That is likely the most rediculous thing ive ever read on these forums.

Think about it in lines of computers. right now the fastest processor in the market is what, 4ghz? how long till that is exstinct????

plenty of markers can cycle just as fast now never mind later.

07-12-2003, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by lack of grace

speaking my mind is poor form on AO? Because I don't have 5000 posts????

Back to the point.....You're a moron for thinking nothing

No its yout lack of vocab. No need to call people names.

adam shannon

07-12-2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Infection5

That was true up untill this year. The speed can shoot paint at 30bps with no drop off.

maybe im just trying to pick a fight...but isnt that no drop off except the first shot? i know 2 guys with first run speeds that are starting a team called FSDO.

Dayspring

07-12-2003, 01:40 AM

1) You apparently got some sort of REAL issue. I suggest you deal. I haven't said one harsh word towards you at all.

2) As of right now, other guns can cycle real fast. Fine and dandy. But as of now, none of them as far as anybody knows is a FULL recharged shot at their upper limits. When the RT gets beat, that's cool. But it hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by lack of grace

speaking my mind is poor form on AO? Because I don't have 5000 posts????

Back to the point.....You're a moron for thinking nothing will ever be released that is faster than a retro valve. That is likely the most rediculous thing ive ever read on these forums.

Think about it in lines of computers. right now the fastest processor in the market is what, 4ghz? how long till that is exstinct????

plenty of markers can cycle just as fast now never mind later.

lack of grace

07-12-2003, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Dayspring
1) You apparently got some sort of REAL issue. I suggest you deal. I haven't said one harsh word towards you at all.

No, I really don't. The only reason i said anything harsh to you at all is because you have no clue what your talking about (ie - "Not even that, but don't forget that NO valve out there besides the RT valve can do a FULL charged shot after 20+bps. Sure, the Timmy or whatever can hit a nice ROF. But their shot to shot consistency and velocity will be all over the place.

RT valve is STILL king."

One of the most retarded things ive ever heard on this forum.

Originally posted by Dayspring

2) As of right now, other guns can cycle real fast. Fine and dandy. But as of now, none of them as far as anybody knows is a FULL recharged shot at their upper limits.

You like your $1500 spec bodied emag. But again false. for example - angel speed, aka viking, aka excalibur, well tuned race or eblade, timmy, impulse, matrix, TIPPMAN!

nerobro

07-12-2003, 02:07 AM

keep in mind that the mag can only recharge when the gun is DONE cycling. A cocker or spyder is recharging constantly.

a mag can do 26 without recharging all the time. That leaves less than 20ms to recharge the AIR chamber. :-) that would mean a cocker could do 52 with the same reg.

the RT is the fastest REG on the market... not the fastest valve ;-) the actual gun finishes it's cycle in 20ms... or thereabouts. (bolt travel to reset) about the same as a spyder but the doesn't need time to refill the air chamber.

*ArKfEaR*

07-12-2003, 02:59 AM

Sadly its only 37 CPS, but reguardless its a constant consistant string of 37. No shoot down, constant shots, thats still amazing reguardless of false claims.

nerobro

07-12-2003, 03:07 AM

*pats his spyder* I have a gun right here that can do it too. ;-) (though 45 is about as far as I'd say we're really "controling" anything at. the gun naturally cycles at about 50) IIRC palmer said something about the max cycle rate of an autococking gun using his components is on the order of 60cps... so.. we're still well short of the theroetical max you might get form a cocker.

the 20bps they demoed wasn't THAT impressive. Racegun has demoed their cocker at more than 22.

IIRC we've seen emags at 25 as well.

])arKNe$$

07-12-2003, 10:31 AM

if you watch the start of the 45 bps video the bolt is not moying all the way back but it is still makeing the 37 bps sound i think its fake

Jack & Coke

07-12-2003, 11:25 AM

not necessarily... it depends on the frame rate of the video clip.

A clip at HIGH video compression / LOW quality is usually at 15 frames per second.

A clip at LOW video compression / HIGH quality is usually at 30 frames per second.

Remember, the bolt is moving faster (37) than both of these rates...

If the bolt is moving faster than the frame rate of the video, you are going to see strange things. Things are are out synch and you end up missing the whole story visually as far as complete bolt movement is concerned.

Since ther's less information to digest on the audio side as opposed to the video side, the audio is compressed differently. You still "hear" everything, just as long as the sampling rate is greater than the ROF of the gun.

rx2

07-12-2003, 12:13 PM

Speaking of the audio, I did notice that there were a few bad events in the clip. That is to say, while the data showed about 37 cps, and while it sounded good, there were a few cycles whose waveforms were pretty messy and weak. I wonder if there weren't a few incomplete recharges.

Jack & Coke

07-12-2003, 12:48 PM

Is it accurate to draw conclusions or assumptions about recharge rate based on audio clips?

Aren't there too many uncontrolled variables which can lead to false interpretations.

The accoutic environment was not really ideal.

Also, what you are hearing (or looking at) are many things all happening at very fast rate.

The events which contribute to the audio spike you're analyzing are many and are all bunched together (i.e. block impact, hammer impact, air expelled, etc.)

Even the angle of the barrel in relation to the mic. Were the camera and gun handheld or mounted in a fixed position? (tripod)

Without measuring the volume of air being expelled after each shot, I don't think it's really proper or fair to say anything about the recharge rate... But that's just my opinion. :)

rx2

07-12-2003, 04:37 PM

I didn't say that is was definately an incomplete charge. However, there were a few cycles whose waveforms were quite different from the rest, which were relatively uniform.

I observed the video, and the angle of the camera doesn't change such that it errs for one cycle and returns. Unless they are using a boom mic, then that can be discounted as a factor.

Now, I know that the recording was a bit poor, and I know that the cheap mics on cameras can be a little off at times, but in past cheap recordings I have seen where markers were fully recharging, even with all of the other considerations factored in, the waveforms were uniform. I won't rule this out, though, as it is logically possible.

You mention the back block, but if it cycles the same each time, then the back block striking the body would have to either strike at a different velocity, at a different angle, or not at all, in order to produce a different sound. If it is cycling completely, and properly, this probably isn't happening. If the change is due to this, might that not suggest that something did not function uniformly?

Now, a marker that is fully recharging, and fully cycling, should produce a waveform of similar magnitude and behavior on each cycle. This is not only in theory, but something I have observed in practice, as mentioned above. Since there are certain events that are not concurrent with the rest, one can say that it may have been due to an err in the performance of the marker.

So, while I am not saying it is definite that the marker is not performing, I am saying it is entirely feasible to think that there may have been some sort of deviance in the marker itself. I have seen and processed thousands of audio tracks in the studio, and, to me, that sort of deviance seems as though it could easily be attributed to the sound source performing out of uniform.

Doc Nickel

07-12-2003, 04:45 PM

Exactly.

Nowthen, to continue the RT hijack, keep in mind that when Tom tested it, he was feeding it from a large industrial tank of nitrogen, through a large industrial welding-gas type regulator.

We'll presume for the moment he was feeding it 800 to 900 psi- recharge, of course, would have been even faster at 1,000 or 1,100 psi.

Now, remember that nobody plays that way. Everyone uses one form or another of screw-in tank or self-contained tank.

So, since no other reg is supposedly as good as the RT reg, and every RT is fed by a non-RT regged airsystem, therefore your RT (or ReTro, or Emag or X-Mag) is only as good as your supply reg.

So it stands to reason that, in actual use, the RT and it's variants are no better than any other regged system, since the lowest flowing reg in any system will be the ultimate limit to recharge.

Doc.