Whats the mechanical diffrence between mag and a 'cocker?

[Ferengal]

I'm looking into getting a mag, namely the minimag for compactness, and was wondering what the diffrence is from a mag mechanically?

[68magOwner]

wow, mags and cockers are different in ALOT of ways, but anyway, the minimag actually has a larger body than the other mags, i would suggest a classic if your in the mini price range, but want compact-ness, if yo want uber-compact get a classic, slap on a vert addapter, 4oz tank, and saw off the stock barrel (mine sticks 1in out of my mag) and you only get a minute velocity drop oof when you cut off the barrel, just turn up velocity to fix that, and the little barrel is amazingly accurate, well....for a 3 in stock barrel lol :D

[Ferengal]

Well thats one diffrence, you can use co2 on a mag heh wouldn't think of that with a cocker :)

Do mags have a sensitive trigger ie shortstroking?

[nuclear zombie]

the difference between an autococker and a mag : everything . It's like comparing apples to oranges , if you are looking at getting a mag be sure to shoot one first most mag owners will be glad to let you shoot there gun ( it's not like you are going to break it ).

As for the trigger I actually find it hard to short-stroke, and if you are mechanically inclined then check out the automag classic manual at www.airgun.com it will help explain the gun better.

[sneakyhacker420]

also, mags have LEVEL 10, which eliminates 99.9% of all ball chopping incidents


now i'd like to see a cocker have that!



i truly find my mag trigger hard to shortstroke mainly because its a nice snappy pull... unlike a cockers light, gentle sliding pull... ;)


i have a cocker too... but i shortstroke alot with it :(

[sneakyhacker420]

cocker internals

[sneakyhacker420]

mag internals... ALOT simpler :p

[68magOwner]

when i first got may mag, i short stroked it because i was used to mey, tiny electro pull that i had always used, but after my first day of use i got used to the trigger, wich i find way more comfortable than an electro trigger.

Quote-Well thats one diffrence, you can use co2 on a mag heh wouldn't think of that with a cocker

in responce to that, yes you can use co2 with a mag, but you have to have a co2 setup, you can just run the bottle vertically, or wou can use combos of, regs expansion chambers, anti syphons and remotes to setup a co2 mag, your best bet for co2'ing a mag would be to use a palmer stabalizer, ive never tried it (to pricey for my budget) but many have said that it works just as well as n2

[Miscue]

Cocker:

<img src="http://www.centralconnector.com/images/mtrpdj04.jpg">

Mag:

<img src="http://www.buckshotscamp.com/A-Victor-Rat-Trap.jpg">

:D

[Meph]

Yeah, but the cocker mousetrap is much more fun to play with! Guess the guy flipping into the cup = backblock!

[GT]

great miscue!

anyone notice that a mag shoots as a closed bolt? hmmmm....:D

[Ferengal]

Do mags have any kick? That was the nice thing jumping from a pos starter gun to a 'cocker -- zero kick whatsoever....

And to the lvl 10 no chop thing, there is a delrin JAM anti chop bolt for cockers that does the same thing :p

[Grassroots]

GET A MAG!!! simple as that

i had a piranha e-force and i was gonna get a cocker. then i saw the light!! my mag shoots as accurate as any of my friends cockers, i never short pull during games, although today i got bored and actually TRIED short pulling it. and it was actually a challenge. and that delrin "anti-chop" thing on cockers isnt anywhere near as leeto as a level 10. :P

[Ferengal]

Well you can barely upgrade a mag or customize it, and personally the I think steel body looks like crap cause it can't be annoed, but the ULE bodies seem to fix that...

Mags also have that really weird *** barrel with those grooves or whatever, maybe thats better sealing or something...

So back to the question, do they have any kick? :)

[l33tpaintballer]

Coming from a person who owns a cocker and is buying an e-mag:

First of all, you can use CO2 on cockers (you guys are really misinformed on this one) wonderfully without any change! When I went from CO2 on my cocker to nitrogen I saw *very* *very* little difference and it required no modification whatsoever.

Second, cockers are closed bolt, mags are opened bolt. I can attest that cockers have *NO* kickback. When I start firing strings there is no recoil at all. I don't know about mags, but I figure they fire at about the same PSI so the results should be similar.

What does closed and open bolt mean? In a closed bolt system, the bolt moves the paintball forward into the gun, then fires it, then moves the bolt back to let another paintball in and repeats. In an open bolt system, the ball drops in, the paintball gun releases gas and vualah!

Third, autocockers have as shown before, *A LOT* more parts. It is somewhat overwhelming but not unbearable. Mags have much fewer parts.

Fourth, mags have level 10 and what not (which really does work better than the cocker setup). They also have more consistant stock valves I believe.

And that's that.

[team_heretix_trey]

It is very hard to short stroke my cocker. I have a very fast and snappy pull.

2 real big differences between mags and cockers is this.
1. Operating Pressure
2. Cocker has more parts
THATS ALL! lol

Plus if you no how to set up a cocker you can eliminate 100% of chopping. Same with a mag . . . so you cant hold that against a cocker. Have you ever heard of the APB bolt? www.apbbolts.com

I own both a mag and a cocker.

I have never ever shot my mag yet since its new . . . but those are the real differences.

[l33tpaintballer]

Short stroking a cocker is *VERY* EASY. A stock cocker will chop paint like a blender if you try. Also, cockers are ment to run from 300 - 400 PSI. Mags shoot at like 350 I believe.

Also, cockers rely on their gas to be regulated through an inline regulator that then goes into the valve, mags simply have their regulator behind the valve I'm assuming. This is superior design because you get more compact. This is an inferior design because you don't have something to hold onto by default :)

[team_heretix_trey]

You can not say the cocer is an inferior design. I know this is an automag forum but automag people still should know there are no inferior designs. Every gun is different.If you look at a picture of cocker internals the valvle is set up right on top (or close to) the reg. The small space their is allows the cocker to un at a lower pressure. I thought stock cockers ran some where around 225-250 out of the box. Mags just dont have a striker that hits the valvle to release it. Instead mags have a little sear/lever thingy (I dont know what it is called) that release the air. You cant compare apples to watermelons . . .
If you know how to set up any gun they can all shoot like a dream. This sport is all preference . . . my next gun will be a Powerlyte 2k3 Hybrid . . . works the same way as a cocker but has an internal ram and other cool stuff :D

[l33tpaintballer]

No, your wrong. I never said that the cocker design as a whole was inferior, I said that a particular aspect of it was. Comparing a feature of two guns that every paintball gun must have in order to function is not apples and oranges.

Your also wrong because stock cockers operate from 350-400 psi. 200ish is *way* low for a cocker and requires special low pressure parts.

And if I was your I would *SERIOUSLY* rethink that purchase. Instead of going for some knockoff few people have ever heard of, buy a mag, impulse, matrix, or angel lcd. An internal ram? So will that limit the cycling speed to 6 bps instead of 10? heh

[Ferengal]

It isn't easy to short stroke, at least not with a hinge trigger I've broken about 4 balls total to shortroking.

A stock cocker runs best at around 350psi, maybe a little lower, and powelyte makes a very nice barrel set I don't see why their guns wouldn't be just as good...

[yurchikcs]

Originally posted by l33tpaintballer
A stock cocker will chop paint like a blender if you try.
I think you have the words "cocker" and "mag" confused in that last sentance. When I first tried a 68Automag years ago, I constantly shortstroked. When I first tried a Cocker... no problem at all. It took me a while to warm up to my 'mag, but I have never had a problem playing with borrowed 'cockers.

[NuthyN]

Originally posted by l33tpaintballer
An internal ram? So will that limit the cycling speed to 6 bps instead of 10? heh

Does anyone else think that l33t should do some research before posting? I also want to say that more than 50% of this thread is pure opinion which is not what AO used to be about. When I first came to this forum I found threads that were full of facts, innovative ideas and good advive. Now more and more I am seeing pure opinions.

Ferengal, my advice is to see if you can find anyone who has the type of mag you are looking to purchase and ask if you can borrow it for a game or two. From your statements you appear to have already tried out cockers and if you decide to go with a cocker, read up on timing and see if there is a cocker knowledgable person in your area incase anything goes wrong. Good luck with your search.

[team_heretix_trey]

No l33t, the Hybrid isnt some knock off gun.

So will that limit the cycling speed to 6 bps instead of 10? heh You obviously dont much about cockers/Rams because . . . well that was just a dumbass remark.
It is made by powerlyte (http://powerlyte.com) And if you think that an internal ram cycles at "6 bps" your an idiot. It is just like any other Ram. It cycles as fast as you can shoot it. Hybrids run at a very low pressure, and have a lot of new concepts to bring to the cocker world.

And correct me if Im wrong but dont Angels use internal Rams? Not exactly like a cocker ram but they use Internal Rams.

l33t your an idiot.

[l33tpaintballer]

Whoa whoa, calm down guys didn't mean to offend anybody.

As for the opinions, you guys are right I know absolutly nothing about this powerlyte gun. Infact, I've never even heard of it! But before we got OT on this strange abstraction of a cocker, I was stating many facts (inline reg, short stroking etc)

I have never shot an automag before, so perhaps short stroking is a problem. Not that it really matters to me because I'm getting an emag. I know for a fact that short stroking cockers that arn't fine tuned leads to blending. The first time I shot my cocker I did a terrible job and simply chopped paint like crazy.

This is not to say all cockers are like this, because now my cocker never chops paint even when I do shortstroke.



It is just like any other Ram. It cycles as fast as you can shoot it.

As to my response, that is one of the funniest statements I've ever heard. The cocker's limp leg is its ram. The stock ram cannot cycle very fast, I believe its something like 10 times a second but I'm not sure. I do believe there are people who can shoot sliders at 10 BPS +

I don't know much about angels either, infact I didn't even know they had rams. Its news to me. And that's that.

[team_heretix_trey]

:eek: 10bps ! :eek:

Dude . . . rams can cycle way faster then that. The stock ram can easily keep up with an eblade at 17bps. I have seen this. The Belsales Magnum Ram can cycle up to some where around 30 I believe. If you really dont know what you are talking about then dont say anything about.

I shot my mag for the first time today (68 Classic) and it is possible to short stroke. The reason why they dont chop when you short stroke though is because it is an open bolt design.

[yurchikcs]

Originally posted by team_heretix_trey
I shot my mag for the first time today (...) The reason why they dont chop when you short stroke though is because it is an open bolt design.
Open/closed bolt has nothing to do with chopping. If I wanted to, I could chop paint with L7 mags all day long. Mags have the worst rep for chopping of any paintgun, and it has always been an open bolt. Thankfully, LX came along and fixed everything except the mag's bad rep.

[GoatBoy]

I'll go ahead and add my obviously flagrant opinion to the list of already flagrant opinions.


There aren't a lot of companies that put as much thought and research into their guns as AGD.

The autococker is an INFERIOR DESIGN. This is not to say it is an INFERIOR GUN -- cockers shoot just fine. If it catches the mouse at the end, then so be it.

The autococker was a hack to a pump. The mag was designed from the ground up with some goals they wanted to accomplish.

Over time, they've refined the mag and have continued to research and innovate. I could easily double this post if I decided to go into it. What do we get from WGP? Uh... this year, let's change the milling on the main body. OK, this year, lets change the trigger from slotted to non-slotted. OK, we can sell these vertical feeds for more money. Hey, I bet we can sell more of these if we call them "low pressure".

All the guns nowadays are more complicated versions of autocockers or vm-68's. There are, what, two knockoffs of the AGD blowforward design. These guns may work just fine, but I just can't quite give design credit for building a hack job on top of another hack job. Anything still using a hammer/valve seems primitive to me. Yes, it works. But it's primitive. Yes, even most electros are basically fancy autocockers.

Hell, look at that Powerlyte hybrid. You're touting that gun as bringing a lot of new concepts to the cocker world? What concepts?! Lets see here... hammer/valve, check. 4-way, check. Ram, check. Yes, they put the ram inside the body. Is that new? No. There's like five bajillion guns with the ram inside the body, like the aforementioned Angels. Ah yes, a delrin sleeved hammer. I'M SURE NOBODY HAS THOUGHT OF THAT! There's nothing on that gun that's really innovative -- they still haven't even reduced the size of the gun! Why would you send your design team to the back, only to have them come back out with a gun that still uses a ridiculously long bolt and a body's that still just as large as a normal cocker? That just boggles the mind.

The whole ball chopping/short stroking thing... They'll both chop paint, and they both have fallible trigger mechanisms. User familiarity with the gun plays a larger factor than the choice of gun itself. I lent my cocker to my roommate who couldn't look at it without chopping paint. We were walking out there, and he practice fired a shot and chopped a ball immediately, and thought it was the gun's fault. I took the cocker, and without even raising it up (just held it at waist level) rattled off a 5 shot string faster than he was able to manage, without breaks.


As far as this cycling stupidity...

Power = Work/Time

The faster you want to go, the less time you have to get your work done, so the power goes up. The key to speed is power.

You want a faster cycle? You'll have to run higher pressure. If you want a spring returned bolt to come back faster, you'll need a stronger spring.

This applies to blockback, blowforward, and ram-actuated guns.

So, no to both of you. The RAM doesn't necessarily cycle as fast as you want it. And it isn't necessarily restricted to a certain BPS.



Realistically speaking, from a birds eye mechanical view, mags and cockers are equivalent. You put a paintball in, pull a trigger, and the paintball comes out. Repeat ad nauseum. Treat either gun bad, and they'll have their revenge on you.

Design-wise, the mag wins in almost all areas except for gas efficiency, maybe blowback, and maybe CO2 tolerance. The trigger thing is a wash.

I own both. I've owned both for a few years. Honestly, I prefer the sliding trigger of the cocker. But after a few years of lugging that big brass laden hunk of aluminum thing around, I've sort of switched back to the mag as my primary. I still love the way the cocker shoots, but I kind of appreciate attention to detail more nowadays.

[team_heretix_trey]

Yes there are. But have any of them stayed out for a long time?
Right now there is the Powerlyt Hybrid. And the Evil Omen. . . I heard and saw that the Omen is horrible. I havent heard anything bad about the hybrid.

And I know people have thought of a delrin sleeved hammer but I havent seen any other guns with it. Not to many at least.




Over time, they've refined the mag and have continued to research and innovate. I could easily double this post if I decided to go into it. What do we get from WGP? Uh... this year, let's change the milling on the main body. OK, this year, lets change the trigger from slotted to non-slotted. OK, we can sell these vertical feeds for more money. Hey, I bet we can sell more of these if we call them "low pressure".

I agree with on the mag completely. But the same exact thing with the cockers. And on mags, I have seem some with ridiculous amounts of milling. Mags kind of tend to be the same guns over and over again with different bolts (x bolt level 10 Blah blah blah), different bodies and different triggers.
Same thing with the autococker. So dont say that.

[Ukraineboy]

What are you talking about?

there are like... I dunno, 5-10 different types of Automags (Please, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) like

the RT, RT pro, Classic, Minimag, X-mag, Emag...

And ofcourse different bodies for them (powerfeed, classic feed, vertical feed)

but on Mags, Milling? WHAT Milling?

and OFCOURSE, there the same Gun over and Over, you know why?

CAUSE THEY STICKED WITH THE SAME FLAWLESS (Well not completely flawless...) DESIGN!

They're not gonna change ONE year the WHOLE way it works.

Autocockers-

All I see everyyear is this

Different shroud (o0o0o0o)
Different Milling (o0o0o)
And that hinge trigger.

BUT NOTHING TO THE EFFECT OF THE PNEUMATICS.

I mean, AGD has been ATLEAST coming out with Level 10, X-Valve, NEW LIGHTER BODIES.

you CANNOT say they're alike.

WGP NEVER EVER has changed HOW the Cocker works.

the 1999 Cocker works the same as the 2003 Cocker.

but the Classic DOESNT work the same as the RT pro

(maybe the same design, but different pulls, etc.)

[team_heretix_trey]

ok enough of this, I meant same gun as same concept. You even said it in your own reply

They're not gonna change ONE year the WHOLE way it works.

They arent going to do that for the autococker either. Both guns are great designs.

The concepts of the automag has never been changed. Yet the parts that do it have been. X Bolt, Level 10, blah blah

The concepts of the autococker has never been changed. Yet the parts that do it have been. Delrin Bolts, AKA Bolts, LP Systems, blah blah

Yes, there is milling on mags, there is milling on every gun. They do the same thing on cockers, they mill the crap out of it and put some upgraded stuff on it and change the price considerably. Look at a classic mag . . . then look at an E-Mag. Same as a stock cocker to a E- Orracle.

I am not arguing that mags suck at all. Nor that cockers are better. They both have been upgraded over and over again. They always will be. But in this day in age they have new competitors, electros, they have shown that you can take a mag/cocker and make an electro. You have no point in saying all what you just said.

Mags are good, I shot my classic for the first time today and it was surprisingly accurate. I am glad to say that as soon as I upgrade it, it will be my back up gun.

Cockers are good, after I shot my mag I played with it for the rest of the night. . . it will be my primary gun forever.

This sport is all preference. END OF STORY