AGD to make LP gun?

[WarBUCKs]

Just wondering about the recent thread regarding Angel LPRs if AGD might step into the Low Pressure Arena? If they are, I am sure most of the information is Top Secret SCI clearance stuff anyway. Bravo Zulu if they are. :)

[cphilip]

What good would you gain from lower than a tad under 400 psi combined with the fastest recharging marker on the planet? Slower recharge and more shoot down? Or a much larger marker like one of the ones you listed to handle a much larger air chamber in order to say you are lower pressure? Other than all those negatives what positive would you realy gain? The ability to shoot a little more air out of a tank? Aren't tanks getting bigger capacity? Is that worth all the negatives?

[FalconGuy016]

Originally posted by cphilip
Is that worth all the negatives?

No... lol

[68magOwner]

i happen to own my mag, then my "beast" the beast runs at 125, i dunno exactly what the mag is ~700? anyway, if i shoot all i can get out of a tank woth my mag, then uncerew it (not releasing any air out of the tank due to on/off drop) then screw the same tank into my low pressure "beast", i get about ~15 extra shots.....it really isnt worth the negative at all, when you really think about it

[cphilip]

yep... when you consider it all you have to think its not realy worth it. LP does not mean Low Total Gas Use Per Shot. Its a common misconception. In many respects the Mag is already LP... to a degree. At the face of the ball that is. And its total air dump per shot is not realy that much different than any other marker. LP = better is somewhat of a myth in the way most people tend to think of it. Its not always better than some other design and choices.

[Matt_mg]

LP is good for rams and the like (pinching balls and stuff) ... otherwise it's cons outweight it's pros...

[breg]

Here is how I look at it: AGD has one of the best systems out there. Few moving parts, a recharge rate from hell, a simple and easy to maintain modular design, reliability you can bank on, etc.
To make a LP marker would be akin to "Not leaving well enough alone."
Not to say that they couldn't, but why bother? They have a proven design, why change to take part of the latest trend? Think of the countless hours sepnt on R&D to put that funky paint slinger in our collective sweaty hands, how they made almost every mod able to retrofit into any of the markers that they make.

[*ArKfEaR*]

LP has alot of benefits, the problem is all the mag hippys think its just hype cause there mags aren't.

1. Less recoil, less bolt force is needed so in turn less recoil.

2. Brittle paint is shot better

3. If you have a good flowing LP setup you will be much more consistant

4. More consistant means more shots per fill (excluding orignal matrix and shocker, as werent too high flowing)

5. Smoother cycling gun



These were all the things I experienced with my amazing cocker. It ran so well, and was so consistant.
Cphilip, slower recharge and shootdown? Where did you pull that out of. Thats the biggest bunch of horse petuty i have ever heard, thats no different than any uneducated person saying cockers shooter more accurately than mags (even though they do ;))

But all in all I think for the A.I.R Valve Regulator or RT Valve, X-Valve, etc. to become in someway or another of a lower operating pressure would make AGD do a completely new design on the reg itself. Cause I think as of now just the way the gun operates it isnt possible, so just leave it cause they shoot fine now.

[f3rr3+]

<because of sleepyness this became a post wh0r3 move>

[TheJester]

pressure behind ball


Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke




Nope.

You're guesses are close to 100% incorrect.

From: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34429

matrix = around 45
angel = around 90
cocker = around 105
impulse = around 60
mag = around 55

[Surreal]

impulse, 60? um, i don't know about that. it's USUALLY anywhere between 140-200 PSI coming out of the maxflo, and there's no reg after that regulating the air behind the ball. me thinks you be wrong.

[JAM]

I don't care what pressure, just imporve effieciency... i play all day with a 3000psi fill on my cocker, i could play all day with 4500psi and my speed, but my XMag would take 2 fills to make it through- all with similar #'s of shots...

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Surreal
impulse, 60? um, i don't know about that. it's USUALLY anywhere between 140-200 PSI coming out of the maxflo, and there's no reg after that regulating the air behind the ball. me thinks you be wrong.

Except for the many people who have put LPR's on their Imps. ;)

[Surreal]

wrong. the lpr just changes the bolt pressure, not the actual pressure shooting the ball. actually, when you add an lpr to your gun, that UPS your valve pressure, and LOWERS your bolt pressure. my bolt is running at 60 psi currently, and 170 psi inlet shooting 280 fps

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Surreal
wrong. the lpr just changes the bolt pressure, not the actual pressure shooting the ball. actually, when you add an lpr to your gun, that UPS your valve pressure, and LOWERS your bolt pressure. my bolt is running at 60 psi currently, and 170 psi inlet shooting 280 fps

I forgot about that. You're absolutly right. As soon as the LPR run Ram hits the valve the total input pressure from the Max-Flo goes through the bolt to push the ball.

Good point. :o

[Surreal]

hehe thanks.

i was just looking at that link that J&C posted.. on the impulse diagram, if anyone notices, the line starts at like -40 for something.. now, i don't know how there can be -40 psi behind the ball while it's resting, unless the impy comes with some kind of vaccuum feed that they didn't tell me about..

[cphilip]

Oh goody! I get to take on this ignorant nonsense with my 10001 st post! :D


Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*

LP has alot of benefits, the problem is all the mag hippys think its just hype cause there mags aren't.

1. Less recoil, less bolt force is needed so in turn less recoil.

And what has any of that got to do with a marker working better? And for one thing recoil is more to do with moving mass than it is with force. I have no idea what convoluted set of nonsense your trying to cobble together there. The new Superbolt has less mass than almost any bolt out there.

2. Brittle paint is shot better

Wrong! Brittle paints are affected more by bolt speed. And slowing down the bolt speed by your low pressure methods slow the bolt. But with that method even though they tend to crack less balls it result in slower rates of fire. In fact the mags level 10 gives you both in a two speed bolt. Slow at first as it passes the ball and then speeds up to deliver a tremendous rate of fire. And therefore actualy shoots brittle paint better. How you ask? It shoots it without damage and breaks and it shoots it faster.

3. If you have a good flowing LP setup you will be much more consistant.

Absolute nonsense. Operating pressure has NOTHING to do with consistency. You string two completely different things together and try to conclude from them. Get this straight. Efficency and Consistency are two different things. And Low Pressure does not mean either one.

4. More consistant means more shots per fill (excluding orignal matrix and shocker, as werent too high flowing)

Again...no it doesn't. You need to go back to school on consistency and efficency. You realy do not have any idea why the Matrix ate up so much air do you? You just heard it was so. So you jumped to some conclusions that fit your argument. IN FACT the matrix just disproved your position! If your conclusions were true that thing would not eat ANY AIR! But since your flat out wrong.... It has nothing to do with consistency I can give you that hint. And shots per fill is more to do with air dumped per shot and where the tank pressure stops cycling the marker. Think about it. Nothing to do with what the guns operating pressure is nor what the regs pressure is. That all can vary greatly. Its the designs.

5. Smoother cycling gun

Have no idea how you arrive at that. All I can say is prove it. I am certain its a non scientific pulled out of thin air kind of thing for lack of any other thing to make up the fifth point. Which by the way are completely full of hot air and mostly in error. You demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of what Low Pressure realy means. And that is the Myth that we so often talk about. You have succumbed to it. And the funny thing is you been here long enough to have learned different. But with a closed mind you will never ever get it. There is no such thing as "Low Pressure is better than High Pressure". Nor is there any clear agreement on what "Low Pressure" means. The pressure that a marker is designed to run on most "efficently" and without problems is the "Best" pressure for that marker. No matter what it is.

These were all the things I experienced with my amazing cocker. It ran so well, and was so consistant.
Cphilip, slower recharge and shootdown? Where did you pull that out of. Thats the biggest bunch of horse petuty i have ever heard, thats no different than any uneducated person saying cockers shooter more accurately than mags (even though they do ;))

Not sure what you mean there. The mags design takes advantage of a small air chamber. Look at its profile up against any marker out there. Its the most compact. I wouldn't want to give that up to make it run at a lower pressure. And you would have too. And indeed the cocker when its running at lowest pressures does slow down in cycle speed. You must have been living on the moon not to know that. In fact a Cocker cycle speed is best at like 325-350psi. Not too far from the mag realy. Want it to pinch balls? Lower that... but also it will not recharge as fast and cycle for the next shot as fast either. You should know that before you start coming here and trying to sell snake oil. Me thinks someone is trying to hard to sell a myth. And it's you.

But all in all I think for the A.I.R Valve Regulator or RT Valve, X-Valve, etc. to become in someway or another of a lower operating pressure would make AGD do a completely new design on the reg itself. Cause I think as of now just the way the gun operates it isnt possible, so just leave it cause they shoot fine now.

LP only has benefits if it operates THAT marker design better. It has its place when the marker is designed around it. But its difficult to design a high rate of fire marker that is small and compact with it as a limiting factor. thats the way it will always be. And it's not the universal fix for ANYTHING. And thats the myth. And its what I was asking the author of this thread why he felt it was needed on the Mag. And then of course you came and tried to make it a Mag against some other marker debate. When in fact it was not. So don't try and sell a bag o dog poop in the discussion either. Or I will call you on it. And your final conclusion was almost my point from the start. Why mess with something thats working the best of anything out there? You don't. I for one and certianly not going to give up the compactness and speed of the Mag for a little less air usage. Its not a trade off that is acceptable to me. Nor one that would give me any advantage worth the savings.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by JAM
I don't care what pressure, just imporve effieciency... i play all day with a 3000psi fill on my cocker, i could play all day with 4500psi and my speed, but my XMag would take 2 fills to make it through- all with similar #'s of shots...

I think the key to doing anything about that is to find out where the Mag wastes some air that doesn't get used in shooting the ball and see if you can change that or utilize that. But the trade off might now be worth it. Tom could tell you more about where that extra air is going. And if its feasible to save any of it. We know a little is now going to vent level 10. And we all agree that was worth it. So finding that other 10% is the answer but doing something about it is the problem. It might not be worth it.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Surreal


on the impulse diagram, if anyone notices, the line starts at like -40 for something.. now, i don't know how there can be -40 psi behind the ball while it's resting, unless the impy comes with some kind of vaccuum feed that they didn't tell me about..



http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=394609

Excellent point...

I totally missed that.

I hope AGD can explain this.

[Jack & Coke]

If there was no main spring, what pressure do you think would be required in the dump chamber to get the ball up to 300 fps when fired?

Good question. I do not know.


What is the volume of the dump chamber anyways?

Another good question. I think I have it written down somewhere in some notes I have. Will have to find them. Its fairly small compaired to most markers. Hense the need for it to be a little higher pressure to get the same velocity.

[cphilip]

Easy. Your looking at it sort of backwards. Thats not a "pressure" reading its a at rest chamber full reference point. Adjusted into a range so you can see it visualy. The graph is showing you the "discharge" of the chamber to the ball as the spike rises...and then as the spike falls its showing the recharge and let off as the ball is gone. Or think if it this way... the distance between the highest point of the spike to the point it goes back to where it started is the time it took to get back to the reference point. The numbers on the graph points mean very little. It's the lag between to its point of rest that is what is intended to be shown. Which most often is slightly higher pressure (lower on the bottom of the spike) than it was at full cold discharge. Its a response back to full recharge that is being recorded but inverse to what you would think. Its not higher pressure as the line goes up. Its lower pressure as the spike goes up. I think thats the measurement shown but not certain on that particular one? But it would be similar no matter where you placed the sensor. The numbers are mostly just reference points I think. At least they were for the chamber pressure measurments we were messing with up there. I am not certain where that measurement was taken but I think you get the drift of the numbers and all from that explination.

[cphilip]

Sorry Jack. I must have hit the edit button instead of the reply agian. But still the questions are replied too.

[Jack & Coke]

No problem... :) It actually made it easier to follow... :p

Call Tom up and ask him! ...please:D

[cphilip]

I will probably hear from them tonight and I will ask. But he is probably teaching tech class right now. And if I do not get an answer I will look in my Tech Notes later for it.

At first I thought that graph was one of the air chamber pressure measurements. But still the explanation of the numbers and thier lack of importance on the side of the Graph apply the same. Its the length of the spike that matters most. Not where it starts or finishes. Its all relative realy.

[Evil Bob]

John Sosta over at AGDE built an LP version of the mag for research (just to see what would happen), it had a larger air chamber (it was basicly two valve bodies welded together, it was almost double the current air volume).

His words on the results were "it makes a nice paperweight or conversational piece, other then that, it's a completely useless hunk of metal. The cycling rate becomes complete crap with the lower pressure."

Tom's interest in the Angel LPR is strictly for the Angel series of markers, AO also owns and hosts the Angel Owners Forum. Tom also owns a few angels.

-Evil Bob