Bill Cookstone and the Trigger Bounce Issue

[AGD]

AO,

I talked with Bill today about the trigger bounce issues and after a length disscussion he told me to quote this on the forum.

"tell the people on your forum that I have not had a problem with an AGD gun in over a year"

As it always has been, if the gun runs away its illegal. If it doesnt it's not. He specifically tells his crono judges that if your trying to make the gun double fire and it does two shots once "I am not worried about it"

This is from the man himself. He did say he is having a lot of issues with OTHER guns.

AGD

[logamus]

thats outstanding news

[cphilip]

Originally posted by AGD
...He did say he is having a lot of issues with OTHER guns.

AGD


See? Told ya! Told ya told ya told ya!!!! :cool:

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD
judges that if your trying to make the gun double fire and it does two shots once "I am not worried about it"


this is what I thought all along. alot of guns will pop a shot or 2 from recoil and some just run away.

thanks Tom good to know you are adressing some of the concerns posted in the ofrum.

jb

[ICOM]

Woot! i new this is will happen. Great news!

[la690]

TK, what are these "other guns"? you know, just so i can make fun of my friends that have them.
*COUGHe-bladeCOUGH*:D

[magking1971]

Who is Bill Cookstone?

[Catch22]

That guy that makes the rules?

[fire1811]

Originally posted by magking1971
Who is Bill Cookstone?


Bill Cookstone=BIG CHEESE :D

the ultimates ultimate

[Animal Mother]

This needs to be more offical.. because there are a lot of ignorant judges out there.. something that can printed out so you can wad it up and shove it into their mouth.. theses judges do not listen.

This is kinda important.. because it gives mags yet ANOTHER bad name.. "Don't get an X-Mag since you won't be able to play in tournaments with them, buy the Timmy".. I can hear it now..

[JT2002]

who is bill cookstone? who does he make the rules for? super 7? psp?

[fire1811]

he did it for the NPPL before the split and now i
THINK he does it for the PSP
i dont think he does anything for the NPPL but i could be
wrong

[JT2002]

are people having problems with the e/xmags in nppl series?

[fire1811]

not that i have heard in the nppl
i guess(not see or had happen to me first hand) some of the refs think rt's are trigger bounce
so they are just clearing it up

[JT2002]

anyone here play nppl and notice if there are problems wiht this there?

[fire1811]

Originally posted by JT2002
anyone here play nppl and notice if there are problems wiht this there?

thats what i play
have played every event and like i said havent seen or had
a problem yet

[Doc Nickel]

Bill Cookston is one of the movers and shakers in the NPPL. He's been part of the system for years, and was eyeball-deep in the SP "Turbo" board controversy back in '98. (In other words, SP was trying to convince Bill it was legal by a vague explanation that movement of the actual contacts in the trigger switch constituted a "trigger pull", not the player's finger. Bill wisely thought otherwise. :D )

In fact, Bill E-mailed me himself back in late '98 or early '99, and told me my Rocking trigger (http://www.docsmachine.com/galleries/rockingtrigger.jpg) wouldn't be legal for the NPPL under the "one shot per pull" definition.

Doc.

[WarBUCKs]

Score another point for AGD.

[rehme]

sweetness

[AGD]

There is going to be an industry meeting on friday morning to discuss the trigger bounce issue. All the major gun manufacturers are going to be there to discuss this. Most are for getting rid of trigger bounce and cheater software that makes guns shoot full auto after 30+ shots.

There was a story of a gun being thrown down at the chicago event and causing it to go full auto by itself on the ground from trigger bounce.

And you think we have problems...

AGD

[raehl]

Bill Cookston is the Ultimate Ref for PSP, and some other events, but not NPPL.

Note that Bill's allowance for an extra shot not being a big deal doesn't necessarily make you ok elsewhere - that's definitely a violation of the Millenium trigger bounce rule for example. If that rule has been adopted by S7 (not sure), you wouldn't be legal there either.

- Chris

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Someone go post this to the kids at pbnation.

[raehl]

I won't be at said meeting (like I was invited anyway ;)) but I would like to make the recommendation that the Millenium bounce rule be used - it's simple, clearcut, and should eliminate trigger bounce in the vast majority of cases. We'll probably adopt it for the college league, although we'll certainly also look at whatever comes out of this conference.


I'll see if I can dredge up a copy of the rule before I take off for Pittsburgh.


- Chris

[raehl]

It's nitpicky, but the "instance" stuff at the end of the first paragrah is deleted, as it's not entirely clear what "instance" is revering to. The tests are called tests everywhere else in the rule, might as well be consistent.

"First, the judge will fully depress and hold the trigger. While keeping the trigger fully depressed, the judge will attempt to move the trigger side to side. The judge will then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired. Second, the judge will as quickly as possible fully depress and then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired. Third, the judge will apply sideway pressure to the trigger and then attempt to fully depress the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired. Fourth, the judge will slowly, over a period not to exceed two seconds, fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion and then, over a period not to exceed two seconds, slowly release the trigger in one continuous motion. No more than one paintball may have been fired.

"If any of the four tests are failed, a player may request that the complete set of four tests is repeated an additional two times. The marker will be deemed legal if it passes every subsequent test and be otherwise deemed illegal.

"Any marker which can be made to fire without applying a force external to the marker directly to the trigger is illegal.

"These tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner and position consistent with playing on the field

"An illegal marker will not be permitted on the field of play, a player may be asked by any judge prior to the 30sec warning for his gun to be tested. If a marker on the field of play is determined to be illegal after testing (which can happen at any point after a player is eliminated or the game ends - but before the score sheet is signed), then (insert whatever penalty you deem appropriate)."


With the caveat that after looking into it further I'm not sure it has actually been put into the Millenium rules yet.


- Chris

[cledford]

Tom,

As I'm sure WAS will be at the meeting I think someone should challenge him on his practice of queuing trigger events. I can find the relevant posts (made by him) on PBN if required.

Personally, I also believe that someone needs to take him to task for his adjustable "debounce" setting - which he claims is provided to "dial out" trigger bounce as opposed to what must people use it for - dialing IN bounce. (Which also then allows full-auto fire when set to 1ms) In my mind it's very funny that NO other manufacturer has any sort of user accessible "debounce/bounce" adjustment and can still get guns that fire incredibly fast, but Jim allows this feature to persist in his product which casts a pall over all electros.

-Calvin

[GT]

Originally posted by cledford
In my mind it's very funny that NO other manufacturer has any sort of user accessible "debounce/bounce" -Calvin

If you hit the Matrix forums I beleive that the new NYX matrix has these settings.

jb

[cledford]

Cool, so now it's catching on :/

Thanks for the update, I wasn't aware of the new Matrix.

-Calvin

[luke]

It sounds to me like the real problem is not the rules but, the interpretation of the rules. Most smaller tournaments will adopt the rules of the larger ones. I think this is where we will run into problems....

[shartley]

Originally posted by luke
It sounds to me like the real problem is not the rules but, the interpretation of the rules. Most smaller tournaments will adopt the rules of the larger ones. I think this is where we will run into problems....
Well…………..

Well, nothing. For some reason when I saw that you were the last person to post here, I had the sudden urge to say……

Luke…… I am your Father.

Looks like it is going to be one of those days….. hope everyone forgives me for this brief moment of levity. ;)

[luke]

um, dad can I have $20. (big smile) :) I looove you daddy. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by luke
um, dad can I have $20. (big smile) :) I looove you daddy. ;)
LOL

[cphilip]

Well I think the important thing to take away from this is that a lot of markers can be forced or fiddled with to make them fire more than one shot per pull. And up until recently more local refs were TRYING more to get Mags to do it because of rumors and the knowledge that many people try and fiddle with them and make them do it. But what is happeing in the last year is that people are realizing from the top that these others exist and more and more its trickling down to the local refs. But it takes time. Until its common knowledge you can expect local refs to sometimes be a little bit prejudiced. Until you destroy a myth. The one thing that we need to NOT do is perpetuate that myth by TRYING to make them bounce.

I think the rule that Chris Reahl put forth sounds logical and sounds sort of like what Tom says that Bill Cookston is already relating to his people to be done. And its in the spirit of what the rules intended. For instance a marker that can be forced to fail one time out of three through carefull bench manipulations is going to be VERY difficult to duplicate that malfunction in the field. Almost impossible to do realy. It's not something that is liable to be utilized on the field nor cause a problem on the field. But ALL markers need to be held to the same standard. And not just AGD markers. And many others of them are failing for one reason or the other lately because the word is slowly getting out that they exist.

So I guess the point to AGD marker users is this... Be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

[lamby]

cphilip,

well said. I hope the section of the rule that states "one slow trigger pull not to exceed 2 seconds" does not hit the slow pull bouble fire problem that the emags can exibit in hybrid mode. Due to fireing electro, then mechanical.

Tom,
can we get a rule revision that allows us to remove the trigger rods in our e/xmags? This will make life easier for us to eliminate possible problems. No other marker has dual fireing modes, so why are we forced to have them in?

[raehl]

It would be your responsibility to configure the E-Mag so that you did not have two firing points. Two shots per one pull is clearly illegal.


- Chris

[lamby]

raehl,

In your series is it legal to remove the trigger rods in the emags to eliminate this problem, and eliminate the RT effect? I had an issue with the PSP about this very thing.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
Tom,
can we get a rule revision that allows us to remove the trigger rods in our e/xmags? This will make life easier for us to eliminate possible problems. No other marker has dual fireing modes, so why are we forced to have them in?

Good point! But I do not think it takes a "rules revision" as such. I think its already within the rules. But I know some disagree with me on that but thats the way I see it. What I think we need is more of a clear statement of interpretation that making us go with both modes is above and beyond the existing rules and above and beyond the "Intent" of the rules. And I would like to see all these "Interpretations" in writting. Maybe thats realy what you were meaning. I just wanted to clarify that. There are many other interpretations of rules that have never been written into the rules. And those should be published. There should be no reason for people to not understand the rules and how they are going to be applied. And clarifictions should be public so that in a dispute one can point to those. And so local refs can use those to make judgement calls if they chose to use those rules. Why make someone hunt for them? It makes no sense.

I mean in this case we have no problem with them checking before and after the fact and seeing if we are not hot then. That's expected. In fact encouraged for the safety of the sport. And if we are hot then thats our problem to deal with if we cannot make the Marker behave. We pay the penalty for that. We will have to find another way if thats excessive. But forceing one particular special crono method or the other is not within the rules as it is. And thats what some are indeed doing. I have no idea if we can make them behave as a whole. Some will and some won't maybe? But we should at least be allowed to try and find ways to make them legal that fall within the rules. It's already within the rules to do so. Its just some people are interpreting that differently. Someone who knows about Mags is liable to be TOO smart on proper manufacturers recomendations and not be willing to think outside the box as to what the rules say and realy mean. It's all in the INTENT of the rules. Not the "Proper Procedure Recommended bla bla bla". If they pass... no matter what... they pass. Thats the rule.

All in my opinion of course.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
raehl,

In your series is it legal to remove the trigger rods in the emags to eliminate this problem, and eliminate the RT effect? I had an issue with the PSP about this very thing.

I don't see ANYTHING in ANYONES rules that prohibits it. One pull = one shot and Velocity on and off the field. That it. And thats how it should be.

Thats my real beef with what happened to you Lamby. It is, in my opinion, wrong to make you have a trigger rod. Its right to expect you to fit both of the categories of Shot number and Velocity. Thats all. Thats my story and I stickin to it! :D

[lamby]

I want all this end!!!! I would love to use my emag for tourneys. I want all these rules cleaned up so I can have one less issue to stress out about. If they don't clean this up, I HAVE to buy a new marker (which sucks)

I hope Jim, Tom, and the rest of the owners come up with something at their meeting today:)

[cphilip]

Yea... I think it will all some to a head Friday. But getting the word down the ladder is the problem. We will have to be Jesuits and spread the word I am afraid. But something in writing is what I hope we can get out of it so we have something to carry around and show.

And of course we have some issues to work on ourselves. Mininizing bounce and HES "idiocy". But I think those can be easily solved.

[JT2002]

today? um, i think you mean tomorrow, its thursday bro :D

*EDIT* Phil beat me to it!:mad: :D

[lamby]

Originally posted by JT2002
today? um, i think you mean tomorrow, its thursday bro :D


Dude, I am third shifter, I never know what day it is :D!!! All I know is tonight is my Friday. Yippie!!!!!

[JT2002]

ok. well fyi, from where you are, the lunie bin is 3 blocks to teh east and 1 block south. Have Fun! :D

[.gigante.]

Originally posted by cphilip

And of course we have some issues to work on ourselves. Mininizing bounce and HES "idiocy". But I think those can be easily solved.


what is this HES idiocy you speak of. i know what a hall effect is, but could you explain the idiocy for me?

[cphilip]

I was talking about the occasional marker that the HES gets triggered off when pulled back and it gets "confused" and fires more than once. Either from setting it wrong or a quirks of electrical interference. We been talking about that for a few days and a couple people have seen this. Many have not but....

[cphilip]

When you get a chance Tom can we get an update on what happened Friday at the meeting?

[Athius]

Maybe they will ban pmi piranhas cuz with mine i just push that security thing that locks the bolt and hammer when field stripping and it turned full auto evnethough i didnt do this much cuz it would ripp my sear.

[AGD]

The meeting didn't happen because not enough people showed up.

AGD




chuff, chuff

[nippinout]

Originally posted by AGD
The meeting didn't happen because not enough people showed up.

AGD




chuff, chuff

That's a real let down.

It's the one week where EVERY big company is represented, and not enough of the paintball gun manufacturers could get together for a meeting of pretty big importance?

I feel kind of let down. :(

But then again, the companies came together a few years ago and agreed to a 13bps ROF cap. :rolleyes: Lots of good that did.

Whatever.

[fire1811]

Originally posted by nippinout
It's the one week where EVERY big company is represented, and not enough of the paintball gun manufacturers could get together for a meeting of pretty big importance?

maybe they have some bounce issues they would like
to keep ;)

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Some noticeable lackings, or else they were hidden.

Indian Creek Designs, I realize they are not the largest player and have perhaps a small share but they are a pball household name.

The big surprise is I did not see Bob Long and any Timmies related setups. Which was odd given the amount of timmies, although there seemed to be mroe Matrices than anything.

The odd part was watching the different dominant marker in the different classes, it seems in the smaller divisions, 3/5 man Matrices were dominant and Angels were lacking but as you moved up it switched. Odd...

Az

[raehl]

Industry stuff was mainly Wednesday, and lots of people were gone by Friday morning.

As for the NCPA, you are free to remove your trigger rod according to the current rules.


- Chris

[cphilip]

Thanks Chris for that NCPA clarification.

As to the meeting...Its a shame it didn't come off. I suspect most of them would just rather not let people know its gonna be an issue. Or admit they have a problem.

[raehl]

I don't think anyone would have a problem admitting that everyone's equipment is so different that it's a right pain to write effective rules that don't unfairly target one design or another.

- Chris

[cphilip]

Amen brother. I sure wouldn't want to try. I think they are fair like they are. And the only problems seems to be an even handed and manufacturer blind application of them in a few spots.

[JEDI]

We had a 5 minute game delay at the IAO due to my teammates Emag. One of the refs was able to full auto his Emag in E-mode. Generally I thought this was a problem with hybrid mode. My teammate did not set his gun up to do this, nor was he able to replicate the bounce himself. It frustrated me that the gun was able to do this, without my buddy even knowing about it. Luckily the refs were understanding enough to give him time to go get his cocker.

This is a problem with a lot of guns. I dont think AGD should take the position though, that its a myth that Mags do it a lot. Obviously they do. The part that agrivates me is that my teammate didn't even know his gun was capable of this. We could have been seriously penalized for something that was completely unintensional.

[cphilip]

Oh they can do it. But its malfunctioning when it does it. But no one has ever said they couldn't. I am certain thats not AGD position on it. And its certainly not mine either.

[JEDI]

I dont know that I would consider it to be malfunctioning. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the gun. It was able to full auto due to the design of the gun. The ref, and several people afterward were able to repeat it. I dont think Tom designed the guns with the intension of bounce in mind, but its a result of the design. Thats not a malfunction. I can do this- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - with my keyboard. :D Thats not malfunctioning, its a result of the design.

I think Mags take the blunt of the bounce issue, because most mag owners know the ease at which it can be done. I play ball with a lot of mag shooters and "mag only" teams, and I know I often over hear how easily they're guns "run away" in hybrid mode. I think Mag owners need to be careful with this issue, because for some of them it's more "intensional" than we here at AO let on.

I'm not picking on Mags. The same teammate with the Emag, was shot twice in the chrono box, by a guy whos Timmy shot on the pull AND the release. I just dont like to see the kettle calling the pot black.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by JEDI
I dont know that I would consider it to be malfunctioning. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the gun. It was able to full auto due to the design of the gun. The ref, and several people afterward were able to repeat it. I dont think Tom designed the guns with the intension of bounce in mind, but its a result of the design. Thats not a malfunction. I can do this- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - with my keyboard. :D Thats not malfunctioning, its a result of the design.

I think Mags take the blunt of the bounce issue, because most mag owners know the ease at which it can be done. I play ball with a lot of mag shooters and "mag only" teams, and I know I often over hear how easily they're guns "run away" in hybrid mode. I think Mag owners need to be careful with this issue, because for some of them it's more "intensional" than we here at AO let on.

I'm not picking on Mags. The same teammate with the Emag, was shot twice in the chrono box, by a guy whos Timmy shot on the pull AND the release. I just dont like to see the kettle calling the pot black.

Very well put Jedi, good to see someone has a got a rational outlook on the subject, the second paragraph really hits the nail on the head.

[emsemt911]

I have been around a lot of different electro guns. They all can be set to have trigger bounce. The triggers can be set sooooo short and sooooo lite that the recoil of the gun will allow the gun to "shoot automatic." I think that mags get the bad wrap because people did not understand the RT trigger, and consider this trigger bounce. I also believe that mags get picked on at tournaments more than any other gun. I will admit that I could set my angel, imp, and a friend's matrix all to have trigger bounce. I would never set my guns to due this at an event. If it was cought that would not be fair to my team mates. I respect them too much to do this. I have only had my e-mag for one tourny and have been checked twice. I have seen quite a few guns set so short that tapping it on the side would fire the gun. I have seen a player that was bragging to a ref at the Mardi Gras Open about his short light trigger that would fire with a tap on the side of the gun, and it was allowed in the event.

When will this Bull crap stop. it is up to the players to set their guns fairly and have fun when they play.

[cphilip]

A 2 cycle engine is designed to run at a certain speed and RPM. I can make it run at twice that... for a few hours. ;)

So if you agree that it was not designed to do it...but you can still make it do it...its malfunction of the "Design". Not to split hairs but thats what you were doing. If it can be made not to do cause you want it not to do it then its functioning correctly then. Thats what I mean by malfunction. But you knew that didn't you? :D

In your friends case I suspect it was signal noise that Tom has reported when set to HROF setting. And that certainly would be a malfunction no matter what.

Now...IF it was designed TO do it and you cannot get it to NOT do it then its functioning properly but your screwed... now that would not be good.

And yea... we drew that attention on ourselves by making them do it and showing off the fact that they could do it. Now we are paying the price for that reputation... Earlier I said we had an obligation to stop that. And we all should try and break that myth that they do it and cannot be made to not do it. I am certain that they can. We have always said runnaway and bounce were undesirable. We never said they didn't or couldn't do it.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by cphilip


Now...IF it was designed TO do it and you cannot get it to NOT do it then its functioning properly but your screwed... now that would not be good.


Ok, I wont split hairs here. I'll agree it can be viewed as a malfunction. It just doesnt lend itself to being a malfunction, when so many people can do it with ease, and even boast about it. (that sounds like a design flaw) You're right, it would be worse if it was designed to do so, and was not avoidable. But whats the difference, if in order to keep an Emag from running away, you have to make the trigger pull really long? That was basically the only fix we were able to come up with.

We brought the gun to the AGD booth, and it was established that moving the HES magnet far enough to prevent bounce, also kept the gun from shooting. So now you have an electro that has the disadvantage of not being able to bring the trigger pull in, without causing bounce. The trigger wasn't a hair pull to begin with when it bounced. Now its between 3/16" - almost 1/4" pull. Thats fairly long for an electro.

I'm glad to see Tom is a big advocate against bounce, its unsafe. But Tom, and us Mag shooters pretty much dug our own graves. How else would you explain a bias towards a gun that only came out of obscurity a year or so ago?

[cphilip]

Agreed... There must be work done to dig out.

That HES itself sounds overly sensitive to me. I never had one do that myself but I have heard of a few others that did. Did anyone try shiming the HES or better put shielding it with a thin piece of paper or so?

[RoadDawg]

I've been on this board for awhile now and was thinking of finally going E. However these issues are really concerning me. I'm looking to play tournies but yet have no experience with a Emag. Is it easy to make the gun go faster then the rules allow? Basically I'm just asking for some down to earth info that clears up to the point. Thanx.

[JEDI]

Well, I wouldn't sway you from getting an Emag. They're good guns. Just know, that there can be an issue with the bounce problem. My teammate had no clue his gun could do this, until one of the refs chrono'd his gun, and he got it to bounce. This isnt hear-say, I saw it happen right in front of me. There appears to be ways to correct the problem, but to me they all seem to hinder the performance of the gun as an electro. Who wants an Emag with a long trigger, and some paper gerry rigged onto the sensor...

[SyntaxError]

What I think is interesting about this whole issue is how some people can get guns to bounce, while others can't. Like Jedi said, the one guy didn't even know his gun could bounce like that, while the ref can shoot it full auto. Its a highly subjective rule considering it can't possibly apply to everyone. I know people that can practically bounce any electro real fast, while I know others who can barely get a timmy to spit out paint, so the same setup will have different results in different people's hands.

I don't think bounce is too much of an issue, either. With timmys and the NYX trix, at least, there are debounce settings which limit the amount of bounce on the trigger. I understand that they're not 100% effective, but once you get 100% effective, your marker's trigger feel goes to crap. Triggers will ALWAYS have some sort of bounce as long as there are electro triggers, due to the slight recoil that most markers exhibit.

I really haven't seen too much of a problem with bounce, and I think people blow the issue WAY out of proportion. I think that when its decided that a bit of bounce, while still keeping trigger feel, and not going F/A, is fine to use, then the issue will be for the most part resolved.

[raehl]

Have two firing points - fire at the "back" firing point, and then don't fire again until the trigger returns to the "front" firing point, and mandate a minimum distance between the two points.

Problem with that solution is it would require redesigning pretty much every trigger system out there.


- Chris

[JEDI]

Originally posted by SyntaxError


I don't think bounce is too much of an issue, either. With timmys and the NYX trix, at least, there are debounce settings which limit the amount of bounce on the trigger. I understand that they're not 100% effective, but once you get 100% effective, your marker's trigger feel goes to crap. Triggers will ALWAYS have some sort of bounce as long as there are electro triggers, due to the slight recoil that most markers exhibit.


Right, I think we've come this far to get good electros, with short triggers. I think in order to reslove the problem 100%, is to move backwards, and hinder the advantage of a short electronic trigger. Honestly, I dont think bounce is a huge problem. Most respectable, and nonrespectable players dont go crazy with a "full auto" gun any way.

[striker]

What about sweet-spotting an RT? Technically, it's one-shot-per-one-pull. So what's the deal with sweet-spotting?