Who designed the first stacked tube blowback?

[punkncat]

As the title of the post says?
Was it Pirahna? Kingman?

[MarkM]

Palmer is the most likely

[manike]

Don't be silly Mark :)

I believe it was the F1 Illustrator, by Kenneth Farrell (IIRC).

This was years and years before the Pirahna or Kingman 'borrowed' the design.

[HoppysMag]

vm68?

[fire1811]

Originally posted by punkncat
As the title of the post says?
Was it Pirahna? Kingman?

neither of these and im not sure who but if all you want to know is did pirahna or kingman come first
it was kingman

[JAM]

yeah, the PMI 3/VM 68

[Animal Mother]

Pretty sure the PMI-3

The F1 was the "High End" gun at the time. Then... some company called Airgun Designs came out with this 68 Automag...

I had one of the very first Automags, the power tube was removable and instead of a foamie the bolt had tiny springs at the end... which broke off later. People would Oooh and Ahhh over it asking what it was. I ran a remote and had a crown point barrel, top of the line back then.

[MarkM]

Ok Simon I bow before superior knowledge :D :p :mad: ;)

Do think that the VM is close in the running, date wise as was my suggestion of a Palmer...need Tyger really to dig out some old magazine pics

Animal Mother...re-read the first post...STACKED tube, that means two tubes one on top of the other, and BLOWBACK...the mag is a blow forward that's what was revolutionary about the design :rolleyes: you got into a lot of flak in your last set of posting (not that fair in that thread I feel)...crown point barrels were well down the line in the scheme of Automag designs but then when you consider that they were "designed" by AGDE not AGD not too surprising that you got them later ;)

[UThomas]

...crown point barrels were well down the line in the scheme of Automag designs but then when you consider that they were "designed" by AGDE not AGD not too surprising that you got them later

There was a crown point barrel in the early 90's that came on the power feed mag, he is not talking about the RT crown point I don't think.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by UThomas
...crown point barrels were well down the line in the scheme of Automag designs but then when you consider that they were "designed" by AGDE not AGD not too surprising that you got them later

There was a crown point barrel in the early 90's that came on the power feed mag, he is not talking about the RT crown point I don't think.


Doesn't matter I was making the point that Animal Mothers Mag although early wasn't in the first run of the designs, the power feed incidently was also designed by AGDE. regular (now called classic feed) bodies that where cut and re-welded (well braised actually, yellow braise on the joint)

[Animal Mother]

MarkM, lol, I said PMI-3, just going back to the time when the Automag hit the scene, I know it isn't a blow back, in fact it was the only non-blowback semi. Well.. I guess you could count that gun that some guy turned into a semi from a pump gun, hehehe

I had a standard barrel on my mag when I first got it, later got the crown point. AGD was always so cool about upgrading my mag for free as well.. they gave me a new bolt to replace the springed one and all kinds of level updates. The barrel I had to pay for.

It was nice.. back then a top of the line marker (mag) was $500... now it's $1000+. Shows that AGD was always fair in their pricing and didn't take advantage of everyone.

[Frontline Newbie]

I guess the pmi-3 came first, according to this site http://www.vmempire.com/vmempire/vm68.htm
"The VM-68 is a slightly upgraded PMI-3"

[Animal Mother]

The VM-68 added plastic side panels, which I didn't like so much.. and an upgraded bolt and hammer which they upgraded for free when my sear broke for the 3rd time.

Ah... the memories.

[Dragoon]

Wasn't the Promaster built by Line SI the fist of the stacked tube designs.

Douglas

[manike]

Originally posted by Dragoon
Wasn't the Promaster built by Line SI the fist of the stacked tube designs.

Douglas

I don't think it was the first, but it was 'one of' the first stacked tube semi's.

I remember a guy on my team waiting for it come out, but people already had F1 Illustrators. I'm not sure if the PMI 3 beat the F1... maybe? Was a very similar time.

Mark I was amused because I don't think Palmer have ever done a stacked tube blowback, have they? They got into their autococking system and seem to have pretty much stuck with it ever since.

[Meph]

Palmer made Camille back in around...... 1987-1988. It was at least one year after the Tippmann SMG-60 came out, I remember that. But Palmer never designed a STBB. That was Sheridan with their VM68. Palmer always dealt with Sheridan style markers yes, but usually always pumps or semi-automatic with a ram, 4-way, and LPR (yes 4-way, Palmer brought it into paintball. Bud just ripped it off and called it a 3-way because he had no clue what he was ripping off at the time!).

F1 came out just after the VM.

For a date of when the VM68 first came to be. Beats me. I keep forgetting. But I'm sure it was probably late 80's.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by Animal Mother
MarkM, lol, I said PMI-3, just going back to the time when the Automag hit the scene, I know it isn't a blow back, in fact it was the only non-blowback semi. Well.. I guess you could count that gun that some guy turned into a semi from a pump gun, hehehe

I had a standard barrel on my mag when I first got it, later got the crown point. AGD was always so cool about upgrading my mag for free as well.. they gave me a new bolt to replace the springed one and all kinds of level updates. The barrel I had to pay for.

It was nice.. back then a top of the line marker (mag) was $500... now it's $1000+. Shows that AGD was always fair in their pricing and didn't take advantage of everyone.

Ok nice dig at a 'cocker, sheesh you mag owners ;) No way was it a cocker as I used one of the 1st generation when they came out, 4 good shots then 2 bad ...pause then 4 good then 2 bad and so on...good to see it got fixed.
I have a pic I took somewhere of a guy using a VM 68 (think thats what it is...bottle at the front like a precharged air rifle and a bottle at the back) but that pic predates the introduction of the auto cocker by around a year. At this time semi auto was banned in all major competitions in this country, so to own a semi was a little mad.

[Meph]

Originally posted by Dragoon
Wasn't the Promaster built by Line SI the fist of the stacked tube designs.

Douglas

I think actually the Promaster is the exact specific marker that the Kingman Spyder was cloned from. Yes they're all the same, but specifically the Promaster is the model that Kingman knocked off.

[Dragoon]

Originally posted by Meph


I think actually the Promaster is the exact specific marker that the Kingman Spyder was cloned from. Yes they're all the same, but specifically the Promaster is the model that Kingman knocked off.

It certainly seems like it! They look and operate almost identically.

Douglas

[Evil Bob]

Tipmann is credited with having the first semi auto/full auto paintball marker. The Tipmann series were all single tube designs.

The first stack tube design comes from the original Nelspot pistol with the ball magazine tube being directly over the hammer/spring tube (2 tubes total).

Benjamin Sheridan took that same two tube design and modified the top tube where the paint used to be stored and changed it into the breach by adding a bolt that was linked directly to the hammer assembly in the tube below it. A minor change to how the sear interacted with the hammer, and bingo, the first semi auto stack tube design.

PMI, acting as the distribution agent for Benjamin Sheridan, marketed the product as the PMI III. Later, when PMI discontinued the line (after a name change), Benjamin Sheridan then picked the line back up for a brief period.

The vernerable PMI III is the father of all the stack tube clones on the market today, very little has changed in most of those, bolt linked directly to the hammer assembly, spring forward/blow back design.

You can still order parts today from Benjamin Sheridan (at a premium) to service your old classic tank.

-Evil Bob